ONLY OURSELVES TO BLAME!

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concernedanglers
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ONLY OURSELVES TO BLAME!

Post by concernedanglers »

Over the last few weeks of viewing comments and complaints on various internet websites, we have come to a conclusion of reality. A mass majority of what is going on is nobody’s fault but our own. We all fish for the passion of catching fish and to enjoy time in the outdoors with family and friends. But, when we take fishing to the next competitive level, if we don’t keep all factors in complete perspective it opens our playing field into a battle front. At one time or another, every competitive angler has had to make choices on his own advancement into competitive fishing. The real choices that affect your overall experience in competitive fishing are not only rods, reels, tackle or boat. We are talking about the organizations that put on the events and the trust we put in them. We all go in with the same hopes and dreams and that is where the problem begins. When you join an organization or event you have to ask yourself why? Their reason for being is YOU. You are the organization. Without you they cannot exist. All organizations have basic membership fees to help cover costs, and hopefully make profits. We all know this, but when it comes to fishing events, that is where the grey area comes out. They all make statements and promises, but only a few of them stand behind you. They need to back you, and provide you with the best overall experience possible.
They should clearly print rules and regulations and stick to them – no exceptions.
They should provide us with as close to as possible a breakdown for monies being paid out for the day, before the first boat goes out. When you come in there should be no surprises.
They need to have payouts readily available at the end of the tournament, listing all teams in all options, and most importantly, resolve any issues or disputes before the end of an event.
Clearly post potential prizes and awards for year-end AOY and TOCs.
If the contestants in the events and the organizations interact with each other, and keep open communication via tournament director and organization, they should provide the best possible experience for all, and potentially increase the participating anglers.
The bottom line is, if the tournament directors or organizations do not support their members, don’t support them.
There are a lot of options out there, don’t just comment on a website. Take your sport back – it’s your passion and money!!!
A group of concerned anglers
A.Fisch
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Re: ONLY OURSELVES TO BLAME!

Post by A.Fisch »

Last night I read your post and came to the conclusion that your post is accurate. We the anglers are to blame. I asked myself, where does my money go? How is it distributed? What do I pay for and am I getting the best value for my money? After the most recent blow-up about payouts we are still left scratching our heads and assuming where and how our money is distributed. I want to get involved. I want to be informed. I don't want to assume I want to know! I understand tournaments have overhead. What I don't understand is what the overhead consist of. I understand that "td's" don't work for free. What I don't understand is how one "td" receives a flat rate and another gets paid per boat entered in the event. Please help me be " in the know" instead of uninformed. I am frustrated. My frustration is fueled by my ignorance. I am ignorant because I am uniformed.

So "concerned anglers" I leave you with this. If you are one you are not alone! If you are many change will is on the horizon!
gixxer464
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Re: ONLY OURSELVES TO BLAME!

Post by gixxer464 »

Great first post guys. :D
frank
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Re: ONLY OURSELVES TO BLAME!

Post by frank »

I understand where you guys are coming from, but I also see where the organizations are coming from.

The next time you go to the tackle shop are you going to ask for a break down of their cost for the baits you choose to purchase and demand a break down of their over head. They are a business that sells a product and they should clearly define the product they are selling but that is just a bad idea for any business to put those details out on the open market.

I believe that they should post the payback percentage or a breakdown of what will be paid out. They should be upfront and define the product they sell. Everyone knows the details about the boat they bought and the details were a big part of the decision making process. Boat model, electronics, motor, storage, etc. How many people got the dealership to open their books and show you their cost and everything that goes into the over head. Did the sales man tell you what his commission was or did the mechanic tell you how much he was paid per hour to work on your motor?

The tourney orgs should post the entry fee, options, and either a sample payout or let people know how they will calculate the money they pay out. If they advertise that they pay back options 100 percent it would be smart of them to lay out how many people were in the specific options and how that was paid out. What they pay their employees, their expenses, and their profit percentages are their business. look at the product and make a decision.

Once they post their product use some good old common sense. If two ogs have the same entry fees and options but one has a higher pay out you have your answer. Look at past results and the payouts, in most cases it will be obvious who has the best pay out per boat.

I never understood why some people made it their mission to point out the payouts of this org and that. This guy is a crook, this org must be stealing, that org takes too much money for the TOC.
Brian Linehan
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Re: ONLY OURSELVES TO BLAME!

Post by Brian Linehan »

Some good points. Gets a little sticky because I think a business has a right to privacy. However, if something smells, feels, and looks like sh@t, it's probably sh@t! Lol

I think transparency is a good thing and perhaps now is the time the orgs like ABA, USAC, NBW, and WON can come on here and state what we all are fishing for at the TOC's. Boat, motor, cash, etc. No more drama at the TOC's! Lol

I will talk to Hutch and Lynne to see what USAC and NBW are awarding at the TOC's.

Brian
Rick G
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Re: ONLY OURSELVES TO BLAME!

Post by Rick G »

Here is a simple solution to the problems that seem to be surrounding this issue. The entry for a "Regular Team event is $250.00. Thats it. There are no options, your in Big Fish, all of it. Then there is no drama about who got in what option and how much the TD's paid back. Each Org states what the percentage they payback upfront and its a simple calculation. Now if they want to take the total entry and divide that up into flight paybacks or some other perk, beat the last years AOY for example, then thats fine. If $250.00 is too much money for you and your buddy to spend, then go to one of the lesser entry trails like Top Stick Joes or FPT. Lets check out this example:

50 Teams x $250.00 = $12500.00

$12500.00 less 15% [seems to be the norm and in the 15% is all insurance and permit fees] and that is $1875.00

That leaves $10625.00 for the ANGLERS TO FISH FOR! Divide it up down the line like you want.
Also if the TD's want "Staff" teams they pay their entrys out of the 15%. Lets say they need 2. Thats $500.00 they pay out of their $1875.00 and they still are making $1375.00 less the other expences. Now lets take also out of the TD's cut $200.00 for the fishoff fund and lets give the Org's owners $200.00 for being in business and taking the chance. Staff teams have to be announced upfront.

$1875.00-
$500.00=$1375.00

$1375.00-
$400.00= $975.00

$975.00 divided up by a 10 hour day is $97.50 an hour. Thats seems pretty fair to me dont you think for a days work?

No Drama, good paybacks, fired up directors cause their makin good money if they go out and promote. You have to love America!

Now one thing that is a must is what the @#$%&^ we are fishing for at the TOC"s, told before the year starts, and if you dont come thru cause your regular business sucks, or your stocks crashed or whatever the BS excuse is. You figure out a way, sell your house, take out a loan, cancel your vacations, whatever.... That prize better be there AT THE TOC for us to take home. If you stiff us then you should be done forever. Seems simple to me. And if we come back the next year then we truly are idiots. Rick G.
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mark poulson
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Re: ONLY OURSELVES TO BLAME!

Post by mark poulson »

Rick,
That makes sense.
And, if the trails joined in an affiliation, like Western Bass has combined several smaller forums but kept their individuality, they could offer a super TOC somewhere like Clear Lake or the Delta or Havasu, somewhere that's big enough to handle 200 boats.
That way they could offer big money, multiple boat packages, and, with cable channels starving for content, probably get TV coverage.
B.A.S.S. and FLW are never going to come west on a regular basis.
He!!, if Columbus had landed in San Diego, no one would live east of the Rockies, and the eastern 2/3rds of the country considers us as the "left coast", anyway.
It's up to western anglers to make their own "Major Leagues".
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concernedanglers
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Re: ONLY OURSELVES TO BLAME!

Post by concernedanglers »

WOW! We really appreciate the great replies and opinions brought forth. As anglers, we together can address these sensitive issues. On our first posting, questions were put forth not to confront, but to challenge your thoughts and opinions on our local tournaments. We as a whole can resolve any grievances regarding our sport, but only through a close unity, and open communications. It looks like we all basically agree that the organizations have the right to make a profit as businesses, through memberships and basic entries. We all would like to see a spread sheet on who entered the options and how they were paid out. A thought of one flat fee at the beginning of the tournament was brought up. As teams who fish single/multiple organizations, what would be your thoughts? Do you feel attendance would rise and controversy drop, or prefer a clearly stated basic entry and options? Through our open discussions, knowledge is generated and distributed amongst us. We know the organizations are reading this, and really hope they are reading into what we are saying.

Concerned Anglers
littlebailey
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Re: ONLY OURSELVES TO BLAME!

Post by littlebailey »

yeah thats the answer to americas problems. Just show everyone how much we all make and it will make everything better.... get a clue guys. Its about trust and even an open book policy wont fix it. nothing will, only time. you want to know where your money went? into someones pocket because you didnt catch em good enough. enough said.
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Re: ONLY OURSELVES TO BLAME!

Post by Rick G »

littlebailey wrote:yeah thats the answer to americas problems. Just show everyone how much we all make and it will make everything better.... get a clue guys. Its about trust and even an open book policy wont fix it. nothing will, only time. you want to know where your money went? into someones pocket because you didnt catch em good enough. enough said.
Trust is the equation you can take right out with my policy. Stated at the beginning of the year and there is no question because we all pay the same. And to answer your question I think no matter what the entry the guys that put in the time will win also. Have them hand you a sheet with the standings and right on there is the breakdown. And my guess is there are more guys on the sidelines not fishing because they dont trust the org;s than do fish. Take out the confusion. Let the owners make money on the memberships and the other profit centers they have behind the scenes. Rick G.
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Dynastyworms
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Re: ONLY OURSELVES TO BLAME!

Post by Dynastyworms »

Rick should start and run that tour.

Z
littlebailey
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Re: ONLY OURSELVES TO BLAME!

Post by littlebailey »

I agree. They need to make something for what they do. Is not easy getting permits and dates for tournies and everything else that goes into it that the average tourny guy doesn't know about or even consider. Im all for the open book idead and Rick has a great idea. But we all have to realize these Org need to make a profit or they wont be there at all. Im thinking a hundred dollars for a pro team membership. 75 dollars for the Future /less money tournies. We all pay our dues at the begining of each season starting next year. Now for the entry fees to each tourny.

X amount for the TOC fees, Prizes and Food/Giveaways.
The rest of the monies to be awarded at the event site directly following the event.

What ever X comes out to is the same at all events. It really easy If we can find a correct number for Membership. The problem isnt that we wont pay the fees. The problem is we need to know where its going before we pay them. If we all know the TD gets the Membership fee or a good percentage of it then we all know they are getting paid for services that have already been paid for. Here's the question. Based on some of field sizes certain TD,s will only make 1000 on average to run tournies for the year based on a 10 boat field. Thats not enough to support a staff and do all the behind the scenes work that needs to be done to put these tournies on. So.........How much are we willing to pay the services of being able to fish tournies? Ide pay 200 a year for an Org that has clear as day payouts on a constant basis( which seems logical if were all happy about where our money went) what about you?
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Marty
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Re: ONLY OURSELVES TO BLAME!

Post by Marty »

The little hairs on the back of my neck are raising! Who are the concerned anglers and what is their agenda? Is this part of the meeting that Gary had last year? That no one would talk about and a bunch of Anglers went off to organize?

1. Is this to control the organization?
2. Is this to get the number up for tournaments?
3. Is this about making different levels of Anglers?
4. It sounds a lot like a union your trying to set up?
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littlebailey
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Re: ONLY OURSELVES TO BLAME!

Post by littlebailey »

marty! :idea: :idea: :idea: :idea: UNION is the word i was trying not to use but is actually exactly what we are trying to do. Not with one or the other but we need guidelines in our sport more than ever. If say Won Bass,AC, NBW any of them were to step up and and charge a more expensive one time membership fee per year then pay back 95 percent across the board. That would leave room for money at the toc and the TDs are getting a consistent check that isnt based on the numbers of the tourny. Ricks idea is great if you can actually draw 50 boats. Its actually perfect, but we cant all get 50 boats at a pro team tournament. I believe we can if we jump on board and come to an agreement of what our membership fees should be, Membership paying for the tournament directors expenses and org Profit. Then We need to find out what the average tourny needs to make to have a great fish off and deduct that from the pot at each event and give out the rest. The more support we get the more we fish for at the fish regardless of what the org has to offer. But to say 45 dollars for a membership covers it like most of pay on the average right now, is far fetched. Thats why they take percentage's the way they do. How ever you look at it they need to make a profit or its pointless. Sponors that offer money are far too hard to come by for these smaller Orgs and the fact is we need to make this happen as the fisherman. I think if membership are up and they a ton of support these orgs can make more money than they do now and we will all be happy as pie with our eventual 100 percent payout after the fish off.
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N.A.R
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Re: ONLY OURSELVES TO BLAME!

Post by N.A.R »

Marty wrote:The little hairs on the back of my neck are raising! Who are the concerned anglers and what is their agenda? Is this part of the meeting that Gary had last year? That no one would talk about and a bunch of Anglers went off to organize?
The way that was laid out via this website, was simply a JOKE!
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Re: ONLY OURSELVES TO BLAME!

Post by Rick G »

Here are some other things to think about. Very few if any of the Org's out here actually run events for a living. Most have some other way they make their main living. Newspapers, internet tackle sales, construction, teaching, on and on. I agree with Paul that they deserve to make a profit, and my guess is some make more than others. None of us are refunding money to them when they are losing money. Most of them have lots of regions with some as many as 125 events in 1 area. Some of those regions do have 50 boat events, but lets say they all average 25 teams a region. Lets take $150.00 an event for the fishoff fund instead of $200.00 for example and thats $150.00x125 events=$18750.00 to the fishoff fund. Pretty good base to start with seems like to me. Now add a TOC option pool, [here is where we dont have to put in if we dont want to] and a good boat package thats also there to win and thats a good fishoff. Also with the memberships, some org's give you way more than others. The Org's that give you a paper or magazine and lots of sponsor giveaways, should have a higher member fee. They have shipping costs and usually more behind the scenes workers so they deserve to earn more. If a org has 3000 members that each member has to renue every year at $45.00, thats $---one hundred and thirty five thousand dollars----- they make at the start of the year! For a little card and a website? Maybe its just time we simplify things is my .02 and get the guys on the sidelines back on the water. Rick G.
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frank
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Re: ONLY OURSELVES TO BLAME!

Post by frank »

UNION, really? You have a few companies (Tournament ORGS) that are offering a service, selling a product. You have anglers that pay for the service, product. Who will join the union, the Tourny organizations? The anglers?

Why would a tourney org even consider the idea? What protections or consessions could a union offer the tourney org? If anythong I would think that the organizations would reject the idea in an attempt to set themselves apart from the rest of the organizations putting on events. If they are all the same, follow the same format, how are they going to attract more boats. What would angelres use to choose a circut?

I have yet to see a union of consumers, no need to sugar coat things, anglers that enter tourneys are consumers. They pay for a service. They are not paid by the organization to fish. Some may be paid by sponsors to fish and have their entries covered but they are still nothing more than consumers. I want to organize all Costco members into a union so we can tell Costco how to run their business. Or, how about this noval idea, if I do not like Costco I could just go shop at Sam's club.

The great thing about this country is that we all have a choice. Too many choose to fish and supprt organizations for the wrong reasons. They have to fish a tourney every weekend (Feed the addiction), they will only stay on their home water, not willing to leave the "Rookie Leagues", you guys name it and there has been a thread on this site about it.

If anglers actually had the will power to only support the organizations that treated them right or just get out of thier own confort zones this thread may not exist. I think too many guys look at what tournies are where and what tournies they have the the best chance at cashing a check and use theat to make their decisions. They will go fish a tourney that they know before hand normally has low payouts, poor attendance, or is surrounded by contraversy because it suits their style or the like their chances. Anglers need to accept that they ARE part of the problem.
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Re: ONLY OURSELVES TO BLAME!

Post by Hollywood »

concernedanglers wrote: They need to have payouts readily available at the end of the tournament, listing all teams in all options, and most importantly, resolve any issues or disputes before the end of an event.

This would be great if this was the case................................. Especially before the second event....................................... :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
littlebailey
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Re: ONLY OURSELVES TO BLAME!

Post by littlebailey »

maybe not a union but something needs to be done because if we keep going at the rate were goin, then we wont have tournies. I had an idea. Guess it wasnt very good. :D Thanks frank for making everything ok. We'll just leave it as is now. See ya at the bowling alley in 5 years.
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concernedanglers
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Re: ONLY OURSELVES TO BLAME!

Post by concernedanglers »

We as concerned anglers are not coming forth to benefit any sole organization or by any means trying to unionize the sport of bass fishing. Our only concern as fellow anglers and friends is to benefit the overall sport. We see leaps and bounds being acknowledged today through professional anglers, dealerships and fellow anglers. We would like to thank Western Bass for providing a forum to put this forth. The opinions that we provide on this delicate issue are solely that. There is no one clear answer, but only conformity through the masses to support our sport in its advancement.

The concerned anglers
frank
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Re: ONLY OURSELVES TO BLAME!

Post by frank »

Little Bailey
I just feel the anglers are Creating the problem. They are attacking the tournament organizations telling them they need to change but still fishing events put on by the organizations they are attacking. I hate your product but i am going to buy it and then complain about it. If the anglers decided to only support the organizations that are putting out a good product the organizations would be forced to fall in line.

The fix seems simple to me, give the orgs a reason to change by hitting them where it hurts, the bottom line. I can honestly say I feel that I practice what I preach. There are circuits I will not fish due to low percentage payouts and TDs I will not support. I will not throw out specific names or organizations because that would send this thread in the wrong direction.

On a side note, if you are going to take up bowling the payouts are even worse in their tournaments. :lol:
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Re: ONLY OURSELVES TO BLAME!

Post by concernedanglers »

As concerned anglers… we are trying to make impartial observations for the best interest of our sport. Referencing towards Aesop’s fables regarding the Hare and the Tortoise, or more importantly the Ant and the Grasshopper. WE do not expect instantaneous results, but through knowledge put forth, we can come to a common goal in this industry. Whoever puts forth will reap the benefits of their hard work towards a common cause. When you look at the overall picture throughout the So Cal –No Cal tournaments, we see the directors that share the same passion as we do, regardless of the organization represented they truly provide a service orientated event. We call upon, a very noble and respected knight in our industry. He calls himself a student, but in timely manner a true mentor of the sport. Sir George Kramer maybe you can come forth and place your humble views on any observations that may help our cause.

A group of concerned anglers
concernedanglers
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Re: ONLY OURSELVES TO BLAME!

Post by concernedanglers »

After viewing the activities of this past weekend of fishing, we clearly see the path of advancement on the horizon. Although we may have taken the time off potentially looking for the next wardrobe malfunction or spending time with our friends outside the sport of fishing, we see a promising movement toward the future! Numerous TD’s and organizations put on great events this weekend benefitting us all from North to South. While some had lower participation, they made huge strides with better paybacks, while others put forth time proven results. We as anglers must always stress this as a slow advancement towards our common goal of competitive fishing. When we the angler’s as a sport, not as individuals, come to advancement. . Only through our voices as one we are not alone, but through unity can we achieve results. We value your observations….
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littlebailey
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Re: ONLY OURSELVES TO BLAME!

Post by littlebailey »

It looks like were a take what we can get community. ill roll with that. :D Without TV this sport on the west coast is going nowhere fast. Oh well ill still be chuckin big baits no matter what happens.
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bryanmc
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Re: ONLY OURSELVES TO BLAME!

Post by bryanmc »

There have been some interesting points and ideas raised in this thread. It's interesting that folks are comparing tournament anglers to consumers, as if they're buying a product from the tournament organizations.

In my mind, tournament anglers are gamblers and the organizations are the casino. I'll take it a step farther and say that tournament anglers are poker players in the organizations casino. When you play most games in a casino, you're playing against the house, and they make their money by beating you. When you play poker at a casino (or fish a tournament) you're playing against the other players (fishermen). The house makes their money on the "rake" (amount they skim off every pot for providing the game). The percentage of the rake is always clearly posted. They don't need to "open the books" because every player at the table can see how much money is in the pot and knows what the rake is. It doesn't work that way with tournaments because everyone may pay a different (or no) entry fee including different (or no) option combinations.

Rick had a great idea about a set entry fee. That way there's no confusion about who was in what option and what they paid. Opening the spreadsheet to those that would like to see it at the end of the tournament will pretty much end the speculation about what an org takes in and pays out and will allow the anglers do decide if they want to gamble in that particular "casino" or not.
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Re: ONLY OURSELVES TO BLAME!

Post by mark poulson »

bryanmc wrote:There have been some interesting points and ideas raised in this thread. It's interesting that folks are comparing tournament anglers to consumers, as if they're buying a product from the tournament organizations.

In my mind, tournament anglers are gamblers and the organizations are the casino. I'll take it a step farther and say that tournament anglers are poker players in the organizations casino. When you play most games in a casino, you're playing against the house, and they make their money by beating you. When you play poker at a casino (or fish a tournament) you're playing against the other players (fishermen). The house makes their money on the "rake" (amount they skim off every pot for providing the game). The percentage of the rake is always clearly posted. They don't need to "open the books" because every player at the table can see how much money is in the pot and knows what the rake is. It doesn't work that way with tournaments because everyone may pay a different (or no) entry fee including different (or no) option combinations.

Rick had a great idea about a set entry fee. That way there's no confusion about who was in what option and what they paid. Opening the spreadsheet to those that would like to see it at the end of the tournament will pretty much end the speculation about what an org takes in and pays out and will allow the anglers do decide if they want to gamble in that particular "casino" or not.
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Gary Dobyns
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Re: ONLY OURSELVES TO BLAME!

Post by Gary Dobyns »

[quote="Marty"][color=#000080][b]The little hairs on the back of my neck are raising! Who are the concerned anglers and what is their agenda? Is this part of the meeting that Gary had last year? That no one would talk about and a bunch of Anglers went off to organize[/quote]

Marty I have zero to do with any of this. I do not know who concerned angler is.

There have been some great points here. I was a Union Rep for 19 years. I know the positives and all the negatives. It will not work with bass fishermen. Heck, you can't get anglers to agree on simple issues much less something major. The only influence a Union would have is " No support" of an organization. The one lake wonders will support their local events and nothing will change.

Just for the record. The tournament idea I had and spoke with the group at C&C is far from dead. It's moving along GREAT. There is a group of anglers that are working hard to make it happen. Is it a 100% go? No it's not, but it's about 90% right now. If and when we pull the trigger on this, there will be meeting with fishermen. I will be one of the guys at all or most all of the meetings. Several of your points in this thread are covered.
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Re: ONLY OURSELVES TO BLAME!

Post by concernedanglers »

As concerned anglers we want to speak as friends on a path toward a common goal. We as a group only want to see evolution through advancement in the sport. We originally came on several websites continuously viewing verbal hostility and attacks on each other obstructing the common goal that passionate anglers are trying to achieve in competitive fishing. Now through open conversations we have come forward to see that even with different backgrounds and opinions we as anglers generally agree on this common interest. We all want to fish and have the best possible experience in our events that we choose to support. We do not want to be led on by false promises that a tournament director or organizations cannot keep. We want to see where our monies have gone through our options. We want a clear layout of year end TOC/AOY event prize package incentive for being loyal to that organization. We also demand the best of customer services available for our monies. Only through our voices as a whole can we achieve this through open conversation dealing with tournament directors and event organizations. Your responses are always valued and respected. Please feel free to share your opinions, as they are what the organizations will view and help us keep this forward momentum…

The concerned anglers
Last edited by concernedanglers on Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
littlebailey
Posts: 680
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Lake Casitas/ Havasu/ Clearlake

Re: ONLY OURSELVES TO BLAME!

Post by littlebailey »

Just let it go man. :D :D Were taking what we can get at this point. :lol: :lol:
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