Where are the largemounth bass??

[DBASSKING]

Have the largemouth bass all been caught out of lake McCLURE?? What do the bass fisherman think!!

[Delaney]

Spotted bass in a canyon reservoir where water levels fluctuate drastically is usually a death sentence for largemouth. As time passes, you see their decline, and usually after about 15 to 20 years large mouths and smallmouths almost disappear. Spots have been in McClure since early 80's, and largemouth in McClure have been sparse for 15-20 years. I would bet that Don Pedro will be the same in a few years.

I think it's sad, but too many people like 100 fish days. Also I think spots may be somewhat of a factor in low turn-outs at tournaments. Fish are small, limits are easy, cookie cutter fish, not much skill to catch, not challenging to catch, fish must be weighed on digital scales, and on and on. Isn't it true that tourney turn-outs are mostly a problem at foothill lakes.

[Kevin Evans - Kap]

Theres still Largies in that Pond. just gotta find em.
I'm glad we have the spots for winter fishing myself.
Its not the bass's fault the water levels drop, and if you have ever caught a big spot you know how hard they pull.
it is what it is, har har.

Good luck,
Kap

[barse41]

In our club tourny on sunday. Bigfish was a 3+ largie. I myself have been catching them but theyre not making the cut.

[SethB]

Not as much skill? Not as challanging to catch? How many spots over 5# have you caught in your life?

[Delaney]

I've got a bunch over 5, biggest 7.5 at a local lake on a 4" worm and and 6# line. I didn't mean they weren't a good sport fish, but I think putting them in these type lakes is detrimental to the other 2 species, which in my opinion is not good. Most if not all of these lakes had good populations of large mouth and small mouth before spots were introduced. Nobody can convince me that spots are not easier to catch.

[swordfish]

I enjoy spot fishing during the winter months at Shasta, however spots are bullies and will dominate other species,Shasta is a prime example, the largemouth are now few and far between and the Smallie population is only a fraction of what it used to be. Spots are good sport and good eating ( I don't kill any other bass) but they are not good for many lakes in my opionion. And man do they pull hard.

[Turkeyman]

Fish DEEPER

[DBASSKING]

Hey guy's do you think there is a way to solve this problem so in the future it does'nt happen again or is it too late to save the largemouth and smallmouth that are in the lakes we love to fish!!

[Delaney]

One thing that I never understood was the slot limit on lakes with spots. Why encourage an overpopulation of a species that seem to dominate in numbers. Just doesn't make sense.

[Mr Gambler]

DBASSKING, support all programs that plant Florida strain largemouth, look what happened to Perris lake!

[Delaney]

Didn't they kill the lake off to get rid of the spots, and start over to do this?

[Cooch]

I'm not convinced ya can blame the spots on the Largemouth decline in our lakes here. All ya gotta do is take a look at Berryessa, where ALL three species thrive together quite well. I believe there is one very specific reason though, Aquatic vegetation. Berryessa has a very fertile aquatic plant life system, where most of California's other Canyon lakes do not(ClearLake & Delta not included).

Certainly this state has had poor management on our black bass fisheries for many years, it all evolves around one single factor, water transport. Unfortunately, this is completely out of the DFG's hands. They've been unable to stop it. They have done a fair job over the years though, in finding ways to assure we have lakes with catch-able fish. Hence, the spotted bass, which is a non-native fish too, was introduced into our lakes to help improve the overall black bass fishing experience here by the DFG because of the declines they saw back in the late 80's.

I believe too many of us give way too much credit to the spotted bass in regards to any decline in Largemouth bass on lakes where they have been introduced. It's easy to point the finger at the spotted bass, when most of us don't know the entire history of how our lakes here have been managed for decades. The decline of ALL fish species in this state is due to excessive water transport. In as much as there are those of us who have been making all kinds of noise in regards to Save The Delta, the excessive water transportation, affects every single lake feeding the Delta Estuary.

With that said, I also believe too, that the water fluctuations on the lakes, has also damaged the natural habitat in our lakes as well, such as all the standing timber and various vegetation growth that is now almost non-existant in most of our lakes. Largemouth bass, need that habitat to survive and sustain a continual growth pace, spots do not. This, I believe, is the "root cause" in the decline of black bass on certain lakes, not because the spotted bass has been introduced there.

[Kwin]

In our brief electrofishing effort this spring @ McClure, half of the bass I saw were LMB.
Water fluctuations at most reservoirs are the mechanism that allow for the spotted bass to flourish. They fill the niche within waters that are not ideal for the other black bass species. They are simply better suited to those environments. They are cookie cutters because of slot limits in some waters & catch & release practices by most anglers in lakes without slots. Thin them out & see what happens.
The structure of the bass population in Perris shifted when bucket biologists brought LMB up from Vail (IMO) to get there name in the paper and released them. Perris is a shallow bowl with stable water more suitable for the LMB which filled the niche better than SPB & thus took over.

[Delaney]

I found out on Google that Perris fish kills were environmental and not intentional, and apparently are fairly common there. Regarding the decline of black bass in the late 80's still ties in with what I said earlier as spots were put in central Cal lakes in mid 70's. 15 to 20 years is all the time it takes to see the effects.

[mac (Doyle McEwen)]

I agree with everything Cooch put out on the situation..The water level stability of most of our lakes leaves much to be desired..Most of our canyon type lakes have very little natural vegitation, Those that do seem to have a much better collection of the various types of black bass and they all seem to do well..

mac

[Mr Gambler]

DBASSKING, to put it in a nut shell, in 1984-1987 Perris produced 4 world record spots. In 1985 some body put florida strain largemouth in the lake illegally, and the spot fishery has gone down hill since. Maybe some southern guys can tell you when the last time they caught a spot there years ago a biologist from the D.F.G. in southern Cal. said Florida bass will take over a spot lake

[Delaney]

All of the canyon foothll lakes have had plants of Floridas, and I don't know of a single one dominated by Floidas and not Spots. Perris is not a canyon lake for that matter, and for that matter I don't think Berryessa is either. Also I don't believe either of these lakes fluctuate like foothill irrigation lakes do.

[Mr Gambler]

You are not going to see results overnight, give it time, I"m seeing more largemouth at McClure and Millerton in the last couple of years than I did 10 years ago.

[DBASSKING]

We all know that the lagremouth bass are still in McClure but what about the bigger fish say the 6 to 9lbs. Bass this size are they the best spawner's? Thanks for all the great info ive been fishing that great lake for 35 years and it is still a rush to hunt for that monster largemouth or monster spotted bass!!!!

[Chris N]

I think more than a few teen fish have come from McClure the last 5 years?

[DBASSKING]

What are the dominate fish in perris stripers,dont know much about that lake but have heard great thing's bout the fishing.millerton has striper's as well.There is actually an abundance of black bass in San Luis also but very tough to catch.This past spring there was a 15.5 caught and keep i believe,dicky markini of Legrand caught a 17 pounder last spring.I dont think alot of fisherman understand that by taking pics,measuring it, weighing it and having a replica made would be cheaper that a mount and your also saving that big fish life to spawn once again.

[Delaney]

If there was any way of knowing where the teens come from I would bet they were adult plants by bass clubs etc., and not from natural populations.

[kmurphy]

You couch biologists keep this site entertaining. It is obivous that a couple of you understand how nature works - Cooch . Read Cooch's post, he is spot on (pun intended). The species changes in the foothill reservoirs is HABITAT related, not species composition related. The DFG brought ithe spots to these canyon lakes to provide a sport fishery where little to none would likely have existed. Your comments about the species catch emphasis this point.

As the most prominate CA fisheries biologist (DP Lee) once told me, ".... as the habitat changes in our reservoirs [annual increased flucuations] some thing is going to win and something is going to loose. In this case the lmb's loose and the spb's win. If the spots take over were ever planted, why have they not take over the Delta? SPB's are present there. Lake Berryessa also is a good example of all three black bass species co-habitating successfully.

I wish freshwater fisheries mangament was as easy as many of your seem to believe it to be. But until then, I will continue to do the best I can, with the limited resources available to me, to provide diverse sport fishing opportunites throughout California.


Good Fish'n,

Kyle Murphy
Current DFG freshwater fisheries biologist and proud to be serving the anglers of California.

[Joe Bruce]

my opinion is falling water during the spawn creates spots. stable or rising water you get lm. 2 of the last 10 gave us lm thus the spot takeover. turkey man is right look deeper

[Mr Gambler]

Mr. Murphy you are right, that is why I would like to sell my house and get the FU(( out of this state & move to Texas, like 4-5 of my friends!!

[bassenvy]

my opinion is falling water during the spawn creates spots. stable or rising water you get lm. 2 of the last 10 gave us lm thus the spot takeover. turkey man is right look deeper

+1

A well known fisheries biologists in Florida told me that high water years statistically have the strongest recruitment rate for both size and numbers of largemouth (especially Florida strain). He attributed this to more available shoreline spawning habitat and also higher levels of oxygen in the water from fertile plants.

In my armchair opinion I think each body of water has it's own unique problems and imbalances(especially when you have an ill funded DFG). Spots seem to reproduce much like stripers and eventually soak up the carrying capacity. On a fluctuating body of water this I believe forces the Florida's to be more productive feeders. I can remember a few times where I've seen a big Florida strainer schooling with either spots or even carp. I believe what Cooch said is very important,especially to a fish that is born to instinctively relate to cover.

If you've ever kept reef tanks or African Cichlids you probably know how hard it is to find that balance

[DBASSKING]

During spawing time the spotted bass will spawn deeper that the largemouth,and as the water goes down leaving the largemouth's egg's out on the bank?Is this a myth ot fact,cause i have seen big female bass go down deeper with the male spotted bass and spawn??

[Mr Gambler]

I think alot has to do with how clear the water is. I have caught largemouth in Don Pedro on beds 15-17 feet deep but like I said the water was super clear I have also gone down the bank at McClure and saw largemouth and spots spawning 5 feet apart

[Delaney]

Not a couch biologist but I'm willing to continue. Again we're not talking Delta, Clear Lake, Perris, or Berryessa. These are not canyon, foothill, irrigation lakes. The foothill lakes show this problem after 15-20 years. If someone had done creel counts at tourneys, I bet this would have been noticed. I can"t understand why nobody else has noticed this. Everybody seems to defend the spotted bass. Vegetation, and eutrophication changes would be gradual, not sudden.
I don't believe Pine Flat or Millerton ever seen any vegetation, and they had very good smallmouth fisheries, and respectable largemouth fishing. The same applies for water fluctuations, these lakes have always had drastic water level changes. Somehow, if someone were to check the timing of the population decline of these 2 species in these lakes, I think you would see it happen 15-20 years after the introduction of spots, in canyon, foothill, irrigation lakes only.

[DBASSKING]

Then it's the habitat,then why don't anybody do something about it.What are we talking bout coontail moss,hydrilla,willow trees,brush piles,what would be good for McClure all the above?? What your only going to catch largemouth only where there is tree's!! Everybody has their own opinion and answers,but without a spawn every year it will happen and the proof is in these lakes that have spots in them.Did any of you see any largemouth fry this past spring in McClure very few right,look at eastman lake they get a spawn every year and then some and it doesnt have any spots in it.I could'nt tell you when i have seen any LG fry in McClure it probably has been 6-7 years back when i worked at the boat club.They are fish,fish live in water these lakes don't go dry,they might draw them down but the bass adapt they don't die off.If the lake does not get a spawn every year it will become like it is now,spotted bass lake!

[Mr Gambler]

DBASSKING, I don"t want to sound like a smart a$$, but how do you tell if a 2" fry is a spot or largemouth? By the more distinct markings?

[vinny]

by kmurphy » Sun Dec 19, 2010 8:45 am

You couch biologists keep this site entertaining. It is obivous that a couple of you understand how nature works - Cooch . Read Cooch's post, he is spot on (pun intended). The species changes in the foothill reservoirs is HABITAT related, not species composition related. The DFG brought ithe spots to these canyon lakes to provide a sport fishery where little to none would likely have existed. Your comments about the species catch emphasis this point.

The problem is DFG and it's biologists. There were very good levels of LM & SM bass in Pine Flat and Millerton. In the spring a 15 to 25 lb limit from Pine Flat was very common before the spots were introduced. Now most of the fish caught are cookie cutters. DFG introduced spots and the fisheries for LM & SM bass declined. DFG biologists took Spots from a tournament at Millerton and released them into Bass Lake believing they were moving SM bass. Bass Lake doesn't fluctuate like Pine Flat or Millerton but the spots have taken over. I believe every spot caught should be killed and eaten. A removal of limits on spoots would be a positive step.

Vinny

[DBASSKING]

That is right,I just dont go out and fish you have to observant,look around and understand what is going on.When a spot you catch spits up 10 of it's own fry come on basic common sense tells me that these are not largemouth.I'm not against the spotted bass just trying to understand how I can figure out these largemouth and when I do I'm gonna whip that booty!!LOL...You guy's are great with your answers and maybe we can go fishing...MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE SEE OUT ON THE WATER!!

[bassenvy]

Then it's the habitat,then why don't anybody do something about it.What are we talking bout coontail moss,hydrilla,willow trees,brush piles,what would be good for McClure all the above?? What your only going to catch largemouth only where there is tree's!!

One of the big obstacles in the motherlode is knowing where the water level is going to be to establish cover. Somebody much smarter than me may advise to harvest the spots and plant young of year Florida strainers I don't know.

Last year Larry Dahlberg informed me of the Fish America Foundation he used to serve on. They help local clubs and participants setup federal sweat equity grants. I've spoken to various biologists throughout CA and some were more than willing to donate their time (and even lend a boat on non gas powered reservoirs). There is a fisheries habitat specialist in Sacramento I spoke to that is also an avid bass fisherman(his name escapes me right now) if I remember right he has used fairly cheap artificial habitats that hold up much better than x-mas trees,logs,etc..

http://www.fishamerica.org/

[Oldschool]

One method to control spotted bass is to introduce egg eaters like Redear sunfish and pumpkin seeds that the spotted bass has a difficult time fending off during the spawn and also provides forage for juvenule and adult largemouth and sport for the weekend recreational anglers.
Black Willow trees can survive being flooded and make excellent shoreline cover for bass and prey, plus they are drought resistant. A problem with a reservior that has over 50' depth fluctuations can also has very little soil content to sustain cover growth like aquadic vegetation.
The local clubs need to get together with the DFG and come up with a solution that benefits all the lake users without creating navigational hazards, etc.
Tom
PS; the down fall for Spotted bass in lake Perris wasn't the introduction of FLMB, it was a combination of live bait fishing, Redears and FLMB. Perris would be a Hill-Land reservior, most Canyon lakes in CA are High-land reserviors, Canyon classification being Colorado river lakes like Mead. Clear lake is a natural lake, the delta is low land tidal water. Alabama river Spotted bass were introduced to CA back in 1939 at Friant where Millerton lake is located, as I recall.

[Mr Gambler]

Oldschool, I was just going by an artical I read in a west coast magazine back in the early 80s, it was written by a female D.F.G. biologist. She said that FLMB will take over a spot lake.

[Oldschool]

With the success of the San Diego lakes FLMB introduction, nearly every lake below 6,000' elevation was planted with FLMB by local bass fishing clubs by the late 70's. FLMB had a lot of mystique back in those days; hard to catch on lures and you needed live bait was one of them. The fact that FLMB adopted better to pelagic bait fish and NLMB seemed to prefer demersal bait fish, may have lead biologist to believe the FLMB would out compete the Spotted bass for pelagic bait fish like threadfin shad.
Spots prefer to spawn on rocks and gravel that are predominate in deep structured lakes with water level going up and down. Largemouths, including FLMB prefer wood or cover with gravel and something protecting thier backs to spawn. The LMB fry need cover to survive, Spots are river fish that know how to hide in rocks, the fry doesn't need cover to survive and it's all about fry recruitment that determines which bass dominates.
Tom

[DBASSKING]

Oldschool we are diffently on the same page,and that is why we are right and everything else is bull!And it did'nt take a B/A,A/A,BIOLOGIST,to figure this out!

[barse41]

nearly every lake below 6,000' elevation was planted with FLMB by local bass fishing clubs by the late 70's.
Tom

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