Outdoor Heritage Tournament Details

[bassfan2]

Outdoor Heritage, Inc. Tournament Circuits
Details, payout on 2013 Pro-Am and team tournaments

August 17, 2012

Outdoor Heritage, Inc. announced details on its new Pro-Am and Team Tournament circuits. The Pro-Am circuit features 150-boat fields of Pros and Co-Anglers competing the first two days of competition on Friday and Saturday, with the top ten Pros advancing to the Sunday finale. The circuit boasts a payback to 1 in 4 boats at each event, with $35,000 and $8,000 cash prizes awarded to the Pro and Co-Angler champions, respectively. As an incentive for those competing for an entire season, the top 20 percent of Pros at year-end will receive free entry into the 2014 season within the same division. The top five Co-Anglers will also be awarded entry fee support for the 2014 season. All year-end entry fee awards will be paid in full by Outdoor Heritage.

Anglers interested in obtaining additional information on the Outdoor Heritage Pro-Am and Team Tournament circuits are encouraged to contact Jim Markham at: jmarkham.outdoorheritage@gmail.com

The following are details of both the Pro-Am and Team Tournament circuits.


Pro-Am Tournaments (Entry Fees: $1,200 Pro, $400 Am)
• Individual weight format: five fish limit for Pro, five fish limit for Am
• Three competition days: Friday through Sunday
• All Pros fish Friday and Saturday; top ten compete Sunday
• All Co-Anglers fish Friday and Saturday; Champion crowned Saturday
• Practice: Wednesday and Thursday.
• Off-limits: nine days prior to practice.

Tournament Payout (Based on 150 boats):
Place Pro Co-Angler
1 $35,000 $8,000
2 $17,000 $5,000
3 $10,000 $4,000
4 $8,000 $3,000
5 $7,000 $2,500
6 $6,000 $2,000
7 $5,500 $1,800
8 $5,000 $1,600
9 $4,500 $1,400
10 $4,000 $1,300
11 $3,500 $1,200
12 $3,000 $1,100
13 $2,500 $1,000
14 $2,000 $800
15-18 $1,800 $600
19-24 $1,700 $550
25-30 $1,600 $500
31-38 $1,500 $450
Big Fish $500 $500

Points Race
Pros: Top 20% in the points race at the end of the year that have fished all four events in a region will receive paid entry fees for that region the following year, a $4,800 value. For example, if the circuit attracts 150 boats on average, then 30 Pros will be awarded paid entries for the following season.
Co-Anglers: Co-Angler of the year will receive paid entry (either Pro or Am) for that region the following season. Second through fifth place will receive paid entry fees for the Co-Angler side for that region the following season.
Angler of the Year: Pro and Co-Angler of the Year will receive $2,000 and $1,000 awards, respectively, to be paid in cash, prizes, or a combination of both.

Team Tournaments (Entry Fee $250)

7 fish limit per team

Tournament Payout (based on 100 boats):
Place Amount
1 $5,000
2 $3,000
3 $2,000
4 $1,500
5 $1,000
6 $900
7 $800
8 $700
9 $600
10 $500
11-15 $450
16-20 $350
Big Fish Prize Package

Team of the Year
Top 20 percent in the Team of the Year points standings, based on average boat count, will receive paid entry for following season.

[Hollywood]

Not trying to sound negative but where is the money for all the free entries for 2014 coming from and how is that going to effect the payouts in 2014? Surly 30 free entries at $1200 ($36,000) is going to have to come from somewhere and will effect something at some point.

I'm sure it was discussed at the meeting but for the guys who couldn't make it, how will it effect the fisherman in 2014?

[TheFLY]

Hello Hollywood,

The short answer is that the entry fee money for 2014 comes from Outdoor Heritage, Inc. We are setting it aside and have it in our budget for each subsequent year. The payout for 2014 is budged to be the same as in 2013.

This is not a case where the tournament organization allows 20% of the anglers to fish with no entry fee in a subsequent year and then the overall angler payback suffers. OHI actually pays those entries in full for the anglers who fish all 4 events in a region and finish in the top 20% within that same region.

As for the broader question of ... where do we get the money (and you may not have been asking that) but just like any business, it is coming from our our various revenue sources, sponsors, initial investments, etc.

I hope that helps clear it up.

Best,
Craig Gottwals
Outdoor Heritage

[TEAMDEADMONEY]

Somebody would need to have their head examined if they choose to fish another circuit of Pro Ams next year... These are the real deal...Thanks to Gary and the rest of his partners who are involved in making this the best series the west coast has possibly ever seen or at least hasnt seen in a long time...

IM IN!!!

Pete

[Robchik]

Looks solid... I also like the 7 fish team limit... old school!!!

Question, not that it would ever apply to me... Will there be observers riding with the top 10, for safety reasons?

[rickyshabazz]

So I am going to go on the record and say that I do have one MAJOR concern. Please dont shoot the messenger.....Just constructive feedback!

While I get 6 weeks of vacation a year, there is no way that I can take off a week of work 3-4 months in a row (basically all spring). Not going to happen in this economy.

If I had one concern it would be that the tournaments should have been spread out every other month. They are all stacked in a 4-5 month period.
There are several other anglers (15-20 guys) that I have talked to that have the same issues with being away from work that much in this economy.

[Gary Dobyns]

Ricky,

Thanks for the post. The water is off limits Monday -Tuesday, so many guys can take 3 days vacation instead of a full week. I assume you're talking the southern division. The events there are 6,7 and 8 weeks apart. We wanted to get started this fall and space the events farther apart but it simply couldn't be pulled off. Also, I'd like guys to know we did NOT want to come on board this year like a bully on the block. We got everyone's dates and built our events around all the other organizations' dates. We took leftovers guys and did the best job we could. We still have a great schedule even by doing this.

I'd like to thank all organizations as the Jamboree was really kind of fun with all organizations trying to get their schedules set. I haven't been to a Jamboree in a while. I'd heard horror stories as most of us have. But in fact, DFG did a great job and there were lots of fun "jabs and pot shots" directed at each other. It reminded me of the "buddy jabs and trash talk" before blast off. FUN!!

Thanks to Lynn Peterson for a HUGE favor on the Havasu date. We were in a bind and NBW saved our bacon!!

All of our partners have made a list of potenial advisory board members. We don't want to slight anyone but put a wish list together. Ricky you are on all lists. I hope you'll consider helping us.

Guys give us feedback (good and bad ) but please know we are trying to build the circuit we've always needed here and give us a chance. We (Outdoor Heritage) and you (all anglers including us) need each other to make this work. Thanks.

[rickyshabazz]

I'm on board. This is the best thing to happen in the west in a long time. I really like the concept and the TV. I also like the offlimits. Thanks for clarifying that. That's BIG!


I would have liked to fish all eight if the schedule would have permited I prefer the northern lakes over the southern.

I may have to cherry pick north and south to have more time between tournaments.

[ihookem]

Most teams fishing the same circuit year after year are never rewarded unless they win (place high enough to get a check). Now the top 20%, probably the guys that are sponsored and are really good fisherman, have lots of time to spend on the water, will not have to pay there entry fee the following year. This leaves out the loyal guys that fish every year, will support your circuit and are trying to get better but now they are paying while the others are not. Seem to make more sense to give everyone, the whole field that fished the circuit all events a discount the following year if the money is there. Show support for your fisherman. Lets say you have 150 boat field and you are going to discount the fisherman that finished in the top 20% their entry fees. That would be 36K. Why not give that to the whole field taking $240 off each pros fee that fished all events even if he did not finish in the top 20%. It still adds up to 36K but everyone is being rewarded for being loyal to the circuit. Only rewarding the few is going to leave to burn out for the rest. Everyone complains about no one supporting the circuit like BASS an FLW, but the circuit needs to support each individual fisherman as well, not just the select few. Just a thought.

[TEAMDEADMONEY]

I dont support the theory of giving everyone a prize because they participated...People should be rewarded for a job well done.
When I was in little league they gave trophies to every team that participated my first year I played.. Well my team sucked and we lost all but one game and that was because the other team forfieted...when the league came to us with trophies at the end of the season, me and MOST of my other team mates were like.."WHY DO WE GET TROPHIES...WE GOT LAST PLACE" and we threw the charity trophies in the trash and came out the next year and got 2nd in league.. Our passion to win made us want to kick the tails of the best teams out there and we gladly accepted the 2nd place trophies the next year... and we werent "okay" with accepting a trophy because we signed up and had our little asses handed to us..
There has to be a goal in mind to keep everyone motivated..and the goal here is of coarse to cash a check and also to finish the season in the top 20% of the field.
We (The anglers) should be rewarded for a job well done Alla the top 20%... To give EVERYONE a discount just because they all competed would remind me off the "PC" little league I was in and would be lame!! IMHO..

Pete

[GW]

I may have missed it but is there a yearly membership fee?

[ihookem]

I dont support the theory of giving everyone a prize because they participated...People should be rewarded for a job well done.
When I was in little league they gave trophies to every team that participated my first year I played.. Well my team sucked and we lost all but one game and that was because the other team forfieted...when the league came to us with trophies at the end of the season, me and MOST of my other team mates were like.."WHY DO WE GET TROPHIES...WE GOT LAST PLACE" and we threw the charity trophies in the trash and came out the next year and got 2nd in league.. Our passion to win made us want to kick the tails of the best teams out there and we gladly accepted the 2nd place trophies the next year... and we werent "okay" with accepting a trophy because we signed up and had our little asses handed to us..
There has to be a goal in mind to keep everyone motivated..and the goal here is of coarse to cash a check and also to finish the season in the top 20% of the field.
We (The anglers) should be rewarded for a job well done Alla the top 20%... To give EVERYONE a discount just because they all competed would remind me off the "PC" little league I was in and would be lame!! IMHO..

Pete

That is the problem. It is not that you have to be a great fisherman to be rewarded. This is a chance to reward the person that is not that good but Loyal to the Circuit. Maybe the circuit discounts 60 percent of the field. Winning and a chance to move forward to a larger platform would be enough. Possibly paying the top 10 for the four tournaments a cash prize at the end instead of a free ride. I have only been fishing bass for 4 years or so say I may not understand all this tournament stuff as I do it for fun, I like it, and the end result is that the tournaments do not cost me that much as I usually can win my money back for entry and some gas money. If I had $1200 and the time to take off I would not be afraid to fish these events. The point I was making was how do you keep a circuit strong and not dying like the others mentioned. Better paybacks is one which this circuit has. Everyone says these other circuits die. I see the same few guys that remain fishing against each other in the end but no returnees. People get burned out because they cant compete or it costs to much. They will most likely say, why should I pay for those guys when I am a 50th place finisher. Anyway what would be your suggestion to keep people of that nature to come back the following year. It might be nice if your sitting in the top 20% but if you don't have a large field to fish against then that would suck. Just thinking that the angler finished second to last and that all of a sudden he or she is going to get a top 20% finish in bass fishing is most likely not going to happen. And the fact is that the anglers will probably be out of the 20% the following year. But if they know they will have a reduced entry, they will have a better chance of coming back, thus keeping the circuit strong. If you want to fish against 30 guys the second or third year then I guess that would be good.

Their is a reason why these circuits lose so many participants and fizzle and I have seen it in 4 years. I wanted to fish the bass fest. 230+ boats in that event, that would be awesome. Cost?? Rewards and prizes for all?? Giveback to the participants from the sponsors.

If you keep rewarding the few that are good enough to win, than that is what you are going to end up with, THE FEW.

[TEAMDEADMONEY]

I see and respect your opinion...however, Outdoor Heritage will not be only rewarding the top guys..They are rewarding the top 20% of the field. That means if a guy finishes 20th place in the point standings for the year he will have his entries comped for the following year. I personally think that is extremely generous and a great goal to shoot for...
On top of that they will have a 1 in 4 payback at each event and what that means is if they have 100 boats they will pay 25 SPOTS!! With 25th place getting $1,500 That payout and year end reward SMASHES ANY OTHER CIRCUIT HERE IN THE WEST.
Im NOT a top guy, YET , But these payouts and the year end point standings reward are great incentives in my eyes and will keep me striving to acheive my goal. (Cashing checks and finishing in the top 20%) as it will for most everybody in the field.
$1,200 is alot of money for a tournmaent entry BUT they (Outdoor Heritage) seem to be doing their best to please the majority with the best paybacks seen out west in a long long time, an even better very generous year end reward, and being there to listen to their anglers through an ANGLER AdVISORY BOARD.. They will have the best interest of the anglers in mind when decisions are made and thats not what we can say about most of the existing orgs out there to date.
Are they going to please everyone....heck no, thats impossible..but they are on the right track to pleasing the serious tournament angler...and lets face it...If someone is fishing this circuit as a pro and spending 1,200 per entry then they ARE INDEED a SERIOUS tournament angler. This will be the highest level we have out West...

[Marty]

Guys give us feedback (good and bad ) but please know we are trying to build the circuit we've always needed here and give us a chance. We (Outdoor Heritage) and you (all anglers including us) need each other to make this work. Thanks.

Gary,

I hope you don’t take this as bad but as good feedback. It took me a few days to post this because I was fishing Bassfest this weekend - just think 231 boats!

My feedback is on the payouts and I based everything on what the Pro was receiving compared to his entry fee.

His entry fee is $1,200 and if he takes first place he gets $35,000 – that is 29 times their entry fee. That is a good return in my book. The Pro that fishes 2nd will get 14 times their entry fee follow by 3rd with 8.3 times entry fee. All good pay backs since this is not a shared weight and they did not get any help from the back seat - LOL.

Talking about getting help – the back seat does not get any help from the Pro and has to do it all by their selves but only gets 20 times their entry fee (1st place AM). 2nd only gets 12.5 times their entry fee. It would seem that both the Pro and Am should match? Now before everyone starts jump up and down, let’s look at 3rd, 4th, and 5th places for both the Pro and Am.

This is where it changes up. 3rd place Pro gets 8.3 times their fee and Am gets 10 times their fee. 4th place Pro gets 6.5 times their fee and Am gets 7.6 times their fee. Last is 5th place and that goes like 5.8 times Pro and AM 6.25 times their fee. Just point out the inconsistently in the pay outs.

The secret to success is consistently.

[Brian D.]

The secret to success is consistently.

+1 Uniforminity will prevail.

Good points Marty. Seem to me that the Co-Anglers are critical for making this work. If the Co's don't show, will the Pro go out with an observer or solo?

[robertthornton]

Its a 100% payback if you count the 20% getting there entries payed for next year. Personally I would like to see the more of the top 20% money used to make it a 100% payback for each tournament, but understand that it also entices guys to fish more events. Maybe have a different event for the to 20, and a different prize for the actual AOY.

[kb]

Using the money to build the paybacks to 100% at each event and not rewarding the guys that will support a full circuit doesn't do anything to build the participation numbers. Look at many of the other circuits and see how many of them have guys that fish all 3 or 4 events. I think this is a great idea to reward those guys that fish all four events, make the top 20% in the points and remember with a 9 day off limits, 2 day practice and the entry fee reward for the following year it should cut down on your time off, travel expenses and feeling like you are at a disadvantage while you are at work and all the lake locals are on the water!!! No more letting the locals pre-fish til the night of the pairing and then figuring out if they are on them good enough to fish......all the while some of you co's are wondering at the last minute if you are going to get in or if you are going to be left out!

Look at the big picture here guys and I think you will see some pretty well thought out ideas!
kb

[VJ]

I think this is a great idea and like KB said well thought out. Im sure as time goes on Outdoor Heritage will work out some small kinks, but If i can see/say one thing everytime i go to the meetings or hear Gary talk about this circut its clear that he really cares and wants to help us The Anglers in the West. I cant wait to fish Teams. Great Job Gary and Outdoor Heritage

[Robchik]

Well said KB... This really has the making of a great time and it's something we were missing out west.

[Ceaser]

wow. Top Notch. 7 fish limits... FINALLY lol. I would have to say it looks great. But no Delta Pro-Am? BOOOOOO! Passing up the best in the west!!!!!!! But great deal man, its about time there was something decent offered. The top 20% paid entrys is super cool, thats more than generous for the guys that support the whole trail.

[N.A.R]

What will the paybacks be with a more "2012" participation? Say 100 boats?

[kitjack]

I don't get it. Did anyone bother to addd this up before getting so excited?

I did the math and it's a horrible onsite payback compared to every existing circuit that is out there.

150 pro's at $1,200 = $180,000 with a total pro payback shown here is only $154,200. Outdoor Heritage keeps $25,800 per tournament from just the pro's the first year at each event ? They keep another $12,000 from the back-seaters. That's progress ? The payback at FLW is way over 100% cash onsite, there is a chance to go to higher levels, win boats, get sponsors, etc. Outdoor Heritage keep another $12,000 on the amatuer side, so in total they are pocketing almost $38,000 per tournament!

This a throwback style, 85% cash payback, on a very large $1,200 entry. They are keeping about $180 of every pro entry, and about $80 from each backseater, and giving away free entries to 5% of the entries the NEXT YEAR. But at that point they are already collecting your money again and only paying back 85% of it again. By comparison FLW pays back way over 100% with their similar $1,200 entry fee, and there are ways to move up to much higher levls, national sponsors are involved, etc.

The 20% who get free entries is not 20% of the people at each event on average, but 20% of the average particpation for the year. To average 150 boats you would have 600 entries over 4 events, so obviously 30 guys getting free the following year would be 5% of 600 total entries. And that's next season at new events where they continue to pay back only 85% of the cash they collect, if there is a next season. If not what happens to all that money ?

If they simply put this same amount of money that is going to free entries into a fund and paid it out to the top 20% at the end of the season it would be a lot better, and the cash payback would be fair.

[kmah]

Not that these numbers that Kitjack are using are accurate, but since it looks like he did the math, I’ll use these numbers. He claims that Outdoor Heritage (OH) is keeping $25, 800 per event from the pro’s.

$25,800 X 4 events =$103,200

Assuming that they pay entries to 30 spots (Based on 150), I do know that this is not an exact science because we don’t know what the participation is going to be.

30 AOY spots X $4,800= $144,000

$103,200 - $144,000= -$40,800 they are in the hole

Based on the pro calculations that were done and the “projected” AOY payback, they are in the hole.

They do have some operating costs don’t they? This is a business isn’t it? Would anyone start a tournament organization without doing a ROI? Heck would anyone start any business without doing a ROI?

I heard the weigh in trailer that is being custom built is in excess of $75K, take into consideration the operating costs to travel around and do meetings, website, legal fees, permit fees, fuel, travel, personnel, etc…

I haven’t even gotten to the production cost of the TV show (Trust me that’s not free), how about buying/negotiating air time with networks. I am only scratching the surface, because I am not behind the scenes doing any of this.

“There is a chance to go to higher levels, win boats, get sponsors, etc.”

That is exactly what organizations sell you, a dream to fish back east. Monroe, Roumbanis, Reese, Murray, Martens, Lintner, Zaldain, Ehrler, Hite, Lucas, Clausen. Meyer and I’m missing a bunch more. Those are the guys the west has already lost. You know why we know their names…two letters TV.

The nearest Elite event this year was @Toledo Bend 1972 miles from central CA. The nearest BASS OPEN Lewisville, TX 1692 miles.

The nearest FLW Tour event? Rogers, AR 1836 miles one way. I won’t do the calculations, add that to your entry fee and see what you come up with? Round trip multiplied by 7 to 10 trips.

I am not the highest authority on this, however I have been tournament fishing for a long time. I am going to fish regardless, because it’s what I choose to do with my expendable income. I am going to try to support OH, FLW, and WON BASS.

The bottom line is that if this works, it will provide a media advertising vehicle for Western Anglers to rely on and market themselves as individuals. Being on a website, in a magazine, or some other static advertising vehicle is great.

But nothing and I mean nothing compares to the impressions that advertisers gain from television (TV). This and this alone will make household names out of all of the great anglers that we have out here.

It takes money to make money.

We have to pay to play. Life’s not free, fair, or easy.

[Tobey]

The 20% who get free entries is not 20% of the people at each event on average, but 20% of the average particpation for the year. To average 150 boats you would have 600 entries over 4 events, so obviously 30 guys getting free the following year would be 5% of 600 total entries. And that's next season at new events where they continue to pay back only 85% of the cash they collect, if there is a next season. If not what happens to all that money ?

You will not have 600 unique anglers fish these four events as most of them will be repeat participants so taking twenty percent of the field would mean twenty percent of the average participants per event.
If you have full 150 boat fields then 30 anglers would receive free entry into the following seasons four events; that would equal $144,000. You calculated $25,800 held back at each of the four events which is a total of $103,200. Subtract that from the $144,000 of free entries and the pay back is over 100 percent. Sounds pretty good to me.

Ron

[benwilliams]

Shaddup and FISH!

[Terry Smith]

This tournament trail looks GREAT!!!!! Wish I had the money to come play with the big dogs!!! But might see if my fishing partner for next year would like to do the team events.


GREAT JOB Outdoor Heritage and ALL INVOLVED!!!

Terry

[longshot]

I will be supporting this circuit. I am excited about fishing a new circuit that has the anglers in mind.
I have fished many circuits only to be disappointed in payout, attendance, and toc. There are enough great opens that have satisfied my tournament itch but this circuit will be legit with Gary involved.
I hope all of us that fish or fished weak circuits support this one and make it great wether it's team, pro or am.

[CN]

How about giving them there first year then make your conclusion's. I for one just don't understand the one's who expect these orginization's to do this for no ROI..............really. Would you go to work for nothing I doubt it. I am sure you all realize fishing a tournament is a gamble with no guarantee's. Would you go run to a pit boss and say hey that slot machine took my money and I want it back.

You also know FLW and BASS make a ton of money off of fisherman.

[calfisher71]

First thing.

Attend the meetings= get a better feel and understanding!

This roll out was done very clear and presented very well.

Both circuits are PRO level circuits designed around PRO level anglers and supporting co- Anglers as well.

Truly a win win for everyone!

I will fish Pro teams for sure!

Unless I hit the sponsor lottery! Then Pro-Am here I come!

A circuit designed for the Anglers not 1 owner.....

Dont sit on the fence, come out fish it, build it,grow it, lets all make this the best circuits out west!

We have to give it time to develop.

Lets all prove to the world "THE WEST MATTERS!"

Im in 100%

Ron Howe
www.rbbassfishing.net

[Calmassey]

Hey guys,

Good job on UB yesterday. Couple more ?’s poppin’ up:

• Who will be the tourney director/weigh-master(s)? Same person(s) for teams?

• When will tourney rules be available? Are Polygraph validations going to be standard practice?

• Will live streaming weigh-ins be in the mix?

• Will all top 10 anglers be guaranteed air-time on the tv show? Even if it’s just a quick 5-15sec for
boat/shirt/hat sponsor impressions?

• Can you use your Pro-am "Top 20% Entry Fee prize/award" towards entry(s) in either region in Y2?

• Will you produce an app, magazine, radio/streaming show or some type of (Bi-)monthly rag for members?

Thanks and looking forward to it!

Charley Almassey
925.200-9825

[N.A.R]

Struggling to understand why a Co Angler can't sign up with a Pro to be guaranteed a spot. I clearly understand rewarding the guy who signs up for all 4 events. But quiet a few Boaters will need Co-Anglers to help with expenses. There has got to be another way to handle this. I see your system working on a 400-600 dollar entry fee but 1200? Don't think so.
Also look forward to hearing what your plan is for year 3, you eluded to ....what most people don't know is this Pro Am/Team trail is just the beginning. Sounds like a full blown TOUR event is in the works...

Tony
ps. DOES ANYONE KNOW IF BASS REQUESTED PERMITS FOR THE OPENS NEXT YEAR?

[chronicbassin]

Have been checking all the info i could find and have decided not only to fish one of the circuits but should be sponsoring one angler as well. We have been left out of the big time for far too long and i for one am glad that Gary and Jim and the others will be stepping up to do something about this. This thing will be much bigger than most think it will be and in 2015 when they have there own pro trail at 5000 bucks a pop i hope you are not one of the ones trying to get on board after the fact. There are a couple of things that i wish were different but nothing so big that it will keep me away from the events. Mike.

[Quasiboato]

The order of registration priority for events from what I was told will be

1) Individual anglers ( pro or am ) who sign up and pay a deposit for all 4 tournaments

2) pro with am pairs signing up for single tournament


3) Individual anglers ( pro or am ) who sign up for a single event


As far as any B.A.S.S. opens in California are concerned judging from the Cal Dept F&G tournament info website it looks doubtful

https://nrm.dfg.ca.gov/FishingContests/ ... teria.aspx

[Californiakid4]

First off this sounds like an awesome circuit, the west has been looking for one for quite awhile. My question is, is their an annual membership like all the other circuits? FLW/BASS you have to buy their magazine. Others charge a $40-75 annual membership fee to fish the circuit. Thanks for creating an opportunity for us west coast guys.

tight lines

[basshol]

Compare ever starts payback now not so convincing received there email today there pay. Ack sucks. Only 1-5 25-30 only get 1300