Inflatable PFD WARNING!

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Grape Ape
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Inflatable PFD WARNING!

Post by Grape Ape »

Here is the Mustang MD3184 "inflatable" PFD. I have been wearing for about 7 years now. I was wearing this when I was ejected from my boat at over 70 MPH. If I would of been knock unconscious....I may have drown. The rear strapping and right side of the vest was drug over my head from the impact, then it inflated causing me to fight to get it back over my head. It actually held my head underwater. Well in my "after the fact" research I found this little piece of information:

Approved for recreational use by the U.S. Coast Guard
(USCG) as a Type V (Model MD3184) Personal Flotation Device (PFD). Not approved for water skiing or other high impact, high-speed activities.

GREAT!!!!!! Many fisherman wear these!!!! I will be spreading the word to everyone I see wearing one!
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Harry Markarian

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Mitch
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Re: Inflatable PFD WARNING!

Post by Mitch »

So, what do you suggest to improve the safety of using this ? Crotch straps maybe ? A higher chest strap ?? Or maybe a 45 MPH speed limit when using ??? I'd like to know more about the circumstances of your being EJECTED at 70 MPH.
I can understand not being approved for water skiing, it could very easily become pulled over your head, and such. High Impact sports ?? Uh, what is it about fishing that is high impact ???? And high speed ?? Yeah, if your're dumb enough to run, or brave enough to run at high speeds in rough or unfamiliar water !!
Hell, I've been suggesting seat belts for over 20 yrs !!
2007 "Numb Nut"

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Grape Ape
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Re: Inflatable PFD WARNING!

Post by Grape Ape »

I was on very familiar water and a gorgeous flat lake (Don Pedro to be exact). I was in my 2012 Ranger Z521 w/250 Merc. Was doing exactly 71.5 MPH and in the middle of a bay when without notice and in less than a second I lost control of the boat and was thrown out of it. After I swam back to it and got on board....I discovered a hydraulic line was off of the steering actuator. It actually backed off (not stripped or broken). No recent maintenance at all on it. I made sure there was Loctite placed on the threads and safety wired. I don't ever want to repeat that again.

As for suggestions.....get rid of these type vest and use the "old fashion" buckle up type. I'm throwing this vest in the garbage.
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Robb R
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Re: Inflatable PFD WARNING!

Post by Robb R »

Good post , very useful .
I am also slightly skeptical of these inflatable PFD's .The impact from being thrown out of your boat @ 71.5 miles an hour is unimaginable and SCARY . Not to mention how these devices are actually tested . I can not imagine they have a bunch of bass boats running down the lake at 70+ MPH with 185lb test dummies being thrown out and then determining which of the dummies survived !! Didn't a guy get thrown out of a Ranger in the Delta last year and his PFD didn't go off and he died ? The unexpected can happen at anytime .
I am curious about this hydraulic hose becoming disconnected . Could anything have been done proactively to look for the catastrophic type of boat scenario ? What about other unforeseen issues on a boat that could cause these type of disaster ?
Tight lines .
Robb
mark poulson
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Re: Inflatable PFD WARNING!

Post by mark poulson »

How about seat belts with the same dissolvable release trigger that the vests have for their inflation bags?
An inertial switch that cuts the engine off if the boat goes out of control?
There have to be enough smart people out there to figure this out.
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Robb R
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Re: Inflatable PFD WARNING!

Post by Robb R »

Mark,
I work in the semiconductor business , there are enough sensor products in the market that we could get a boat to shut off if you farted .Problem is dollars , if there isn't a large enough market , nobody will develop the product .
Look at the Drone market , who would have thought that 10 million drones will be sold next year and just in silicon valley , there are about a dozen start up companies developing these new "gadgets " that are priced from $25 to 2000 for a consumer device.... who woulda thought ??
Robb
steve0806
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Re: Inflatable PFD WARNING!

Post by steve0806 »

My solution is 50-55 max. I don't care how flat the water is. There are too many variables that can result in bad endings. I know my limitations. Getting from point A to point B at 70 mph in a boat isn't really necessary.
Grape Ape
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Re: Inflatable PFD WARNING!

Post by Grape Ape »

On the issue with the steering actuator hydraulic line.....I, nor my mechanics, have no idea how that nut backed off. No previous leaking and no gradual loss of steering. You'd think there would be oil sprayed all over the place.........nothing. I also discovered someone else who this happened to about 6 months ago on the delta.

What I did was to have Loctite on the threads and safety wired the nuts. I will also check them very often.

Steve, doing 70 MPH is not a problem. There are many boats that can and do run much faster. Just about every professional tournament boat does or exceeds that. I've seen bass boats exceed 100 MPH! Now that's crazy! I will give you this.....before this incident I felt like I was 100% in control at that speed. Now, not as comfortable and have backed off a bit.

Mark, I have thought about the idea of seat belts. For one....I don't think they'd be a good idea unless they were like race car harnesses that have shoulder straps and a quick release. Ya, then you start to think what happens if the boat flips? Not sure how common that is.
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Re: Inflatable PFD WARNING!

Post by mark poulson »

If there are enough accidents and insurance claims, I'm sure seat belts will be developed and required.
It's all about money.
The auto industry said requiring seat belts would make cars too expensive, and the same thing about air bags, but both are now standard equipment, and selling point.
I just wish it didn't take loss of life to make things safer.
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drew
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Re: Inflatable PFD WARNING!

Post by drew »

I went away from the inflatables several years ago because I was skeptical of their performance and they provide very little other value.

I have been using a Mustang Accel 100 vest since. It does eliminate the inflatable failure possibility but its not ideal. Its also Chinese made which is a real bummer for me. I would like to move up to a Lifline vest with crotch straps. A friend of mine who has a very fast Allison recommended only using a vest with crotch straps to prevent ride up.
mark poulson
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Re: Inflatable PFD WARNING!

Post by mark poulson »

steve0806 wrote:My solution is 50-55 max. I don't care how flat the water is. There are too many variables that can result in bad endings. I know my limitations. Getting from point A to point B at 70 mph in a boat isn't really necessary.
I heard some idiot go by me on plane in the fog Sat. morning. I was fishing a point, and could barely see 100'.
I saw him as he popped out of the fog, and then back into it, at the very limit of my visibility. I doubt that he even saw me.
Going fast is fun, but not when it's dangerous.
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Tin Can
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Re: Inflatable PFD WARNING!

Post by Tin Can »

steve0806 wrote:My solution is 50-55 max. I don't care how flat the water is. There are too many variables that can result in bad endings. I know my limitations. Getting from point A to point B at 70 mph in a boat isn't really necessary.
If a vest is not approved for waterskiing or high impact, 50mph is still plenty fast enough to rip those vests over your head. When you waterski you're going 25mph or so.
toddmc
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Re: Inflatable PFD WARNING!

Post by toddmc »

I've got the same PFD and I have never trusted it. There are too many stories of similar things happening. I made the switch back to a non-inflatable vest because I have young children. I use the more comfortable inflatable vest for night tournaments where we can only go idle speed.
Cooch

Re: Inflatable PFD WARNING!

Post by Cooch »

In light of the convenience of these new style PFDs, there do seem to be problems with the Type V versions of these vests whether they don't inflate at all, or in Ape's case, inflating in such a position it puts the user at risk. Over the past 5-7 years, we have seen a number of instances of failure, even to the extent of loosing the life of some of our brethren. One common factor in all of this is the failures occur with the Type V vests and not the Type III versions. There are distinct differences in these two types, most obvious is the fact the Type V vests, if not worn, do not count as a valid PFD in yer boat. If you get boarded by the Coast Guard or Sheriff, and are not wearing that vest, you will get cited for insufficient PFDs on yer vessel if in fact you don't have additional Type III vests on board to cover the number of persons on your vessel by law.

It blows me away the number of bass anglers who purchase these Type V vest and don't know the difference and circumstances. What blows me away more, is that neither the manufacturers of these PFDs, nor the Coast Guard who rate them, know or will tell you what the differences is. About 4 years ago, Brian Carpenter and I got in an argument one day while fishing on this issue one morning. Adamant I was wrong, we spent the next 6 hours floating around Frank's Tract in search of some truths. We contacted several manufacturers of these PFDs, we got the same response from development teams from each, "We don't know the parameters used by the USCG on how they rate our PFDs." REALLY? You build and distribute these to recreational users and you can't tell me the guidelines? Whoa!

Okay, so our search then lead us to various departments of the USCG, we first contacted the Station in Alameda, CA, which had no clue and referred us to their California Training facility at TRACEN Petaluma/Benicia. No help here and we were then referred to the R&D Center in Groton, CT. This facility actually attempted to help us research our queries, but eventually couldn't help either and referred us to the USCG R&D Center in New London, CT. Turns out this group was unable to answer our questions as well. OMG, nobody can tell us how they rate these vest and the differences between a Type III and Type V. That's scary folks.

So since that time, I have phased out all of these light weight PDFs, both types and have replaced them with the old standard mesh net vests from BPS that only cost $34. I won't go into the over priced costs of these new inflatable vests versus the old style(including the re-arming costs), bottom line is, I can count on the older style of vest to save mine or my clients lives if ever presented with a situation where someone goes overboard. I have been adamant in explaining this to clients, especially when they show up in my boat with one of those Type V inflatable PFDs.

The simple fact that neither the manufacturers, nor the USCG, can explain why these are rated as they are, scares the crap out of me to where I will no longer take the chance and use them! Add to that we've lost more bass fishing buddies the past 8 years wearing one of these inflatables, than guys who weren't wearing a vest at all! Our lives are far too precious, to put it's safety into these failing, mechanical vests!
Oldschool
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Re: Inflatable PFD WARNING!

Post by Oldschool »

Key word is "high speed", Mustang and other mfr's make high speed PFD's for boats up to 100 mph.
The Suspenders types are OK if you fall overboard while going less than 10 mph. At 50+ mph water is very dense, the impact feels like hitting concrete and can cause severe injuries.
Tom
Grape Ape
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Re: Inflatable PFD WARNING!

Post by Grape Ape »

I've been thinking about this incident since it happened. I have received some phone calls on how the actual mishap could of been prevented. Even though my posting of this was to alert you all about these vest, I thought I'd share what I am going to do to prevent this, and other, lines from "detaching". I was an aircraft mechanic in the Air Force and remembered using this tamper proof stuff we called "bird do do (they wouldn't allow what it's really called)" on many of the lines. Once you torque down a nut you apply a thin line of this stuff across both sides. If the nut moves....it'll be obvious to you....if you train yourself to look at it on a regular basis....which I already do! I thought this would be exactly what I'll use! I found it online and going to give it a try. It's called "Cross Check" and I've added a pic. Hope this helps and possibly save yourself from going through what I did.
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Re: Inflatable PFD WARNING!

Post by mark poulson »

Oldschool wrote:Key word is "high speed", Mustang and other mfr's make high speed PFD's for boats up to 100 mph.
The Suspenders types are OK if you fall overboard while going less than 10 mph. At 50+ mph water is very dense, the impact feels like hitting concrete and can cause severe injuries.
Tom
Exactly. Water at speed is dense, which is why we can skip baits across it, but we have to have the bait moving.
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Mitch
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Re: Inflatable PFD WARNING!

Post by Mitch »

Great Idea, Grapeape !! I used to use this on lug nuts on my truck and trailer. You know right away if one is loose. I was looking at my hose fittings just yesterday because of your post. I'm all about trying to prevent failures when possible !! Guess it's just the "Trucker" in me, LOL !!
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mark poulson
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Re: Inflatable PFD WARNING!

Post by mark poulson »

When auto-inflatable vests came out, I bought two on sale from bass pro. But I kept the three conventional life jackets in the boat, because I was told at that time that auto-inflatable vests were not considered life jackets unless they were worn, like Cooch said.
My auto vests are more than ten years old, and I've had one go off twice when water got into my storage locker on my Tracker, so I know the system works.
They only have one buckle at the belly, so I'm sure they would ride up if I hit the water at speed, like Grape said happened to him.
I like how I can fish easily with them on, but I am now rethinking whether it is smart to wear them when I'm running.
I can live with a little inconvenience, but I'm allergic to drowning.
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