A clarification about using hydrogen peroxide in live wells

Moderators: MKA, Mike M, Caudawg, ash

Terry
Posts: 196
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 9:45 am
Location: Sacramento, CA

A clarification about using hydrogen peroxide in live wells

Postby Terry » Tue Jun 24, 2008 2:45 pm

In the post below about the new special conditions at Diamond Valley, one of the subsequent posters in the thread suggested using hydrogen peroxide in the livewell to produce O2. Gene Gilliland and Hal Schramm, in their booklet Keeping Bass Alive say that H2O2 "can injure fish and should not be used" because it damages the gill filaments. "Damage to gill filaments, suffocation and death may result", according to the authors.

The Department of Fish and Game asks that anglers and tournament organizations do not use hydrogen peroxide as a livewell water additive.

The booklet mentioned above is very informative and available online. I will add the site after I post.

Terry Foreman
Fisheries Program Manager
Fisheries Branch
Sacramento
(916) 445-3777

Terry
Posts: 196
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 9:45 am
Location: Sacramento, CA

Re: A clarification about using hydrogen peroxide in live we

Postby Terry » Tue Jun 24, 2008 2:50 pm


Oldschool
Posts: 1508
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2007 7:29 am

Re: A clarification about using hydrogen peroxide in live we

Postby Oldschool » Tue Jun 24, 2008 4:58 pm

Sure-Life recommendations using hydrogen peroxide:
http://www.sure-life.com/pdf/bass_champ ... n_tips.pdf
Any questions concerning using 3% hydrogen peroxide should be directed to Lane Gergely:830/556.4801
Reports of hydrogen peroxide being harmful to bass where based on commercial use with stronge 35% solution, not the 3% over the counter solution as recommended by Sure-Life, manufacture of Catch & Release and other livewell solutions to keep bass healthy.
Tom

jrbasspro
Posts: 459
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 10:41 pm
Location: Lancaster CA

Re: A clarification about using hydrogen peroxide in live we

Postby jrbasspro » Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:28 pm

I use hydrogen peroxide 3% to scub my livewell only and I rense it with lots of fresh water when I am done, but that is the only time I will use it. I defer to the experts on this, don't use it, add a frozen water bottle and add catch and release, but make sure to check the doseage this time of year is critacal.

walt
listen to that gut feeling!!!

"keep it clean and dry"

Terry
Posts: 196
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 9:45 am
Location: Sacramento, CA

Re: A clarification about using hydrogen peroxide in live we

Postby Terry » Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:18 pm

In deference to you I will talk to Lane tomorrow.

Terry

Oldschool
Posts: 1508
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2007 7:29 am

Re: A clarification about using hydrogen peroxide in live we

Postby Oldschool » Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:13 am

Thank you for contacting Sure-Life and await your response to Lane's reply and the review of seveal links supporting the use of 3% H202, deluted 2 table spoons per gallon of water.
Bass tournament anglers are generally capable of following the clear instructions offered by Sure-Life and the benefits, IMO, off set any remote mis use of deluted 3% H202 for bass held in livewells.
Tom
http://www.h202.com/info/overview.html, biotreatmment section.
http://www.syndel.com/handling/transpor ... tml#oxygen
http://www.theaquariumwiki.com/Hydrogen_peroxide
http://schools=wikipedia.org/wp/h/Hydrogen_peroxide.htm
http://fish/bakerweb.biz/peroxide.html

Lane
Posts: 90
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:31 am
Location: TX
Contact:

Re: A clarification about using hydrogen peroxide in live we

Postby Lane » Thu Jun 26, 2008 1:14 pm

Terry will be out of the office until July 7th. He did contact me, we
talked and provided him with prior scientific, peer reviewed research.
Marathe V.B., N.V. Huigol, S.G. Patil 1975 Hydrogen Peroxide as a
source of oxygen supply in the transport of fish fry. Progressive
Fish Culturist 37(2):117

It should be noted that the publication, "Keeping Bass Alive" by
authors Gene Gilliland and Hal Schramm endorses the use of
pressurized oxygen. Futhermore, David Kinser of Oxygenation Systems of Texas is listed as a contributor to the publication and
is also listed as the ONLY company recommended by the authors
as a source of pressurized oxygen equipment. Pricing is also included in the publication. We know of NO OTHER SCIENTIFIC DOCUMENT WHERE PUBLIC FISHERIES SCIENTIST ENDORSE a company and product in this manner. WE DO NOT support of
endorse the use of pressurized oxygen in bass boats with livewells
located near bilge area. This a BIG safety issue!

It should also be noted that mortality studies conducted by Oklahoma Dept of Conservation researchers which would include Gene Gilliland are cited on PETA's FishingHurts website in the Catch And Release section. http://www.fishinghurts.com/FAQ.asp

The statements made against the use of hydrogen peroxide should
be considered very general and UNSCIENTIFIC. I will elaborate on
this.

"However, this chemical can injure fish and should not be used".
Cited research documenting damage, including solutions, dilution
and exposure times were not included to validate this general statment.

"Most people have used this colorless, odorless, tasteless liquid
to disinfect a cut or scratch. You can see it fizzing and bubbling on
the skin as it oxidizes. Now imagine what it does in a livewell full of
bass".
There is a BIG difference between full strength and dilution. Hydrogen peroxide is used FULL STRENGHT FOR DISINFECTION.
The solution to dilution ratio that we recommend is not strong enough for disinfection. This a scare tactic that has not been backed up with sound scientific research and or documentation
to support the statement.

"Unfortunately, anglers who use peroxide often think that if a little
is good, more is better. Wrong, Damage to gill filaments, suffocation
and death may result".
First off, we have proven that the majority of anglers are quite capable of following directions and pay attention to warnings of
overuse. The author's statement CLEARLY states that MOST anglers
are stupid and incapable of following directions. WOW! Should we
even trust them to operate a high speed boat? Why would you ever endorse or recommend pressurized oxygen to stupid anglers
considering the risks to HUMAN SAFETY! Please!
Again, authors have FAILED to cite scientific documentation of damage and mortality at the various solutions and dilution ratios.

We find it very interesting the the authors would cite, Bryan H 1988
Conserving the resource: an evaluation of B.A.S.S. catch and release program.
Of which Tony Gergely (president of Sure-Life) was actively involved with. The highest DELAYED mortality rate documented was 10%.

Also the cited research of Plumb J.A., J.M. Grizzle and W.A Rogers
1988, Survival of caught and released largemough bass after confinement in livewells. Published in the North American Journal
of American Fisheries.
Again, the research centered around the original Catch And Release
formula that Tony Gergely developed for Jungle Laboratories.

But NO scientific research to validate statements of the use of
hydrogen peroxide as an oxygen source, or resulting damage or
mortality from it's use for this purpose in the livewell or transport
container.

Some of the information that I provided to Mr. Foreman includes
documentation of histolgical changes in fry and fingerling fish in
several species. The solution was 35% administered at a dosage
rate of between 45mg/l and 249mg per liter with repeated exposure. Damage to gills that would impair respiratory function was VERY LOW, and mortality was unlikely. Mr. Foreman can elaborate on this if he so choses.

Each angler should make their own decision based upon good
reliable information and not scare tactics, used to encourage
anglers to purchase a particular product or system.

drew
Posts: 1066
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 1:30 pm

Re: A clarification about using hydrogen peroxide in live we

Postby drew » Thu Jun 26, 2008 1:25 pm

Thanks for the info Lane. I have a few questions. First will the extra hydrogen from the hydrogen peroxide decrease the PH of the live wells content? Second what about a small piston or diaphragm air pump feeding an air stone in the live well as a source of oxygen?

Lane
Posts: 90
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:31 am
Location: TX
Contact:

Re: A clarification about using hydrogen peroxide in live we

Postby Lane » Thu Jun 26, 2008 1:35 pm

Drew, There can be slight decrease in PH depending upon the
hardness of the lake water, but the decrease would be VERY
VERY slight! Nothing to worry about.

As far as supplemental equipment goes, I recommend air infused
venturi systems. They work like a champ! The H2O2 is not dependent on batteries or livewell function. We recommend it's use during times of year where loss of aeration is likely to result in mortality. Post spawn and during the warmer months. Sometimes it is too late before you find out that DO levels are too low.
Fishing Goddess
PETA's Worst Nightmare

Oldschool
Posts: 1508
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2007 7:29 am

Re: A clarification about using hydrogen peroxide in live we

Postby Oldschool » Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:38 pm

Lane,

Thank you responding. Terry is on a fishing trip and we hope he will reply, after considering the data, upon his return.
Night summer tournaments have the dual affects of low DO and warm surface water. Solar heating all day, then the aquatic plants stop producing DO via photosynthensis and they comsum DO. The wind generally lays down or stops atfer dark, so wind generated DO is reduced at the surface level, where livewell intakes are taking in water.
Your recommendations make good practical sense and has proven to work in the field. Why the California Department of Fish and Game decided to post their statement in regards to H202, without first researching the facts, is the question that may be answered.
California's world class fishery continues to maintain it's self without a great deal of assistance from the DFG. Fishery money is directed to trout and salmon, bass are basically on their own, because they are hardy fish that can maintain their population with a proper handling by the fisherman.
The DFG condemned the use of H202, a low cost effective method to reduce post stress mortality of bass held in livewells and in small amounts of water in weigh in bags, in response to my suggesting it's use. Lets hope they reconsider and support the proper use of H202.
Agian, thank you for your help in this matter.
Tom

User avatar
SoCalBassAssassin
Posts: 408
Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 11:40 am
Location: Ventura, CA

Re: A clarification about using hydrogen peroxide in live we

Postby SoCalBassAssassin » Fri Jun 27, 2008 3:19 pm

Instead of all the chemicals, couldn't a person use a 12 volt air pump with a stone on the end of the hose? OR>>> We all have water pumps on our live well right? Couldn'[t we just drain the bad water ,and add fresh every so often? I really don't like to idea of giving the fish chemicals. Their natural water is probably the best thing for them.

I vote for airpumps and stones, and fresh water! :lol: :lol:
I came. I caught. I released. Life is good! -Saul-

hippie
Posts: 1878
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:35 pm

Re: A clarification about using hydrogen peroxide in live we

Postby hippie » Fri Jun 27, 2008 4:01 pm

iuse peroxide on my little bumps in the goosh area

TEAMDEADMONEY
Posts: 1334
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:33 pm
Location: So. Cal.
Contact:

"On my little bumps on the goosh area" Hippie???

Postby TEAMDEADMONEY » Fri Jun 27, 2008 5:23 pm

I'm gonna puke!!!! :shock:
Lisa is a lucky girl...

Pete 8)
PeteMarinoGuideService.com

Lane
Posts: 90
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:31 am
Location: TX
Contact:

Re: A clarification about using hydrogen peroxide in live we

Postby Lane » Fri Jun 27, 2008 5:43 pm

SoCal, Pumping in fresh water during the summer months and
post spawn will do WAY MORE harm than good. The surface water
is too warm. The energy that a bass expends during the fight
of capture is very comparable to a human running in a marathon.
Electrolytes and blood chemistry need to be restored to normal,
and that is just the tip of the ice berg. Post release mortality is
very real, and in many cases preventable. Harmful chemicals such
as ammonia, CO2, heavy metals need to be removed. Pumping in
freshwater is fine if surface water temps are under 70F. Keeping
your aeration on continuously is a MUST regardless of the season
or time of year. Ninety percent of the oxygen transfer occurs at
the surface. Aeration also removes CO2 from the livewell. We recommend the H2O2 during post spawn when fish are naturally
stressed and need extra oxygen, and during the summer months
when the metabolic rate of the fish are high. Sedation helps lower
the metabolic rate of the fish, and the essential oil that we use
also lowers stress hormones that are directly linked to delayed mortality. NEVER let livewell temperatures exceed 70F, warm
water can't hold enough oxygen to keep your fish alive. Take plenty of ice!

While H2O2 is a chemical, it is a natural chemical. Our bodies produce it everyday. It is part of our internal chemistry. Plants
also release H2O2. There is a lot of good information about it
on the internet. As with EVERYTHING else, you don't want to
use it in excess. As the saying goes, "Everything in moderation"!

Aeration that moves the air across the surface of the water is
far superior to ANY other method of oxygenation in a livewell.
The use of H2O2 is secondary to standard aeration. But it will
keep oxygen levels high enough for survival, when your livewell
is filled with fish, you experience livewell or battery failure, and
during warm months when oxygen levels are low at the surface.
Not only are you pumping in hot water, but you are also pumping
in water that is low in oxygen. Airpumps, stones and fresh water
will not get the job done. You may get your fish to weigh in alive,
but certainly not in good shape. Fish that are healthy have good
color, glassy and dripping with slime. If the scales are noticable
and the fish feel rough to the touch they probably will not survive
past 10 days after release, unless they are treated. Many times
a fish will go into shock and roll over, they no longer have the
ability to control their airbladder. When a fish is brought up from
deep water, it is immediately obvious. If you place a fish in your
livewell that is upright and swimming, then check on it later and
it has rolled over, it is more than likely in shock. Bottomline is that
placing one or more fish in tight confinement is anything but natural, and YOU MUST be the one to keep them in good enough
shape for release. Unlike Texas, California does not have a largemouth stocking program. The fishery can be impacted, especially if enough bass of a particular age class are removed.
Hopefully this info will help, which is the intention of the post.

Hey Hippie, so does the H2O2 help with those little bumps in the
"goosh area"? You crack me up!

hippie
Posts: 1878
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:35 pm

Re: A clarification about using hydrogen peroxide in live we

Postby hippie » Fri Jun 27, 2008 7:04 pm

actually nitroglycerine fixed that problem the peroxide i use for the aftermath. when i wasin the military i always gargled with peroxide twice a day i believed it killed all the bad mistakes i drank and woke up with. And no BILL your Mom wasn't there

ns nitro
Posts: 335
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 9:34 am
Location: I.E.
Contact:

Re: A clarification about using hydrogen peroxide in live we

Postby ns nitro » Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:14 pm

J was that from all the man chowder u were tryin to rinse out of ur mouth????? :shock:

User avatar
SoCalBassAssassin
Posts: 408
Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 11:40 am
Location: Ventura, CA

Re: A clarification about using hydrogen peroxide in live we

Postby SoCalBassAssassin » Sat Jun 28, 2008 6:44 pm

Thanks Lane! I'll keep that in mind! in the front of my mind I hope!!

Saul
I came. I caught. I released. Life is good! -Saul-


Return to “Fishing”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: THE DR and 104 guests