JUDGE ORDERS STATE: STOP KILLING DELTA FISH

[rickd]

Good read

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f ... 01&sc=1000

[Guest]

Rick,

Thanks for posting. I heard this on KCBS on my ride home from the 100% Delta tournament on Sat. Glad to see that there's real progress being made on this front.

[BASSK9]

I would be real careful about what I wish for. Everyone hates enviornmentalists unless its thier own interest. Then its an Oh My God stop this evil! Just look at the financial devestation of the Pacific Northwest over the Spotted Owl.
California needs water! Northern California is included in that and plenty of Northern Californians reley on the Delta to sustain them. Where did they shop this stupid tree hugging judge? At risk is a 300 billion dollar state economy should we halt delta pumps. Crash that and try to sell your home, try to keep a job, try to buy gas for your boat!
Solutions need to be found before the Delta dies. One is more Dams in the Sierra's and the coast range. Here again fishermen will raise the not on my river enviornmental flag. The best way to discontinue this economic dream world of ours is to cut off the water and cut off future economic growth in California. What about our Bass or is it what about our future and our children's future job potential? Check with all those uprooted and bankrupt logging families of the Northwest about enviornmental issues put before human needs. Logging went abroad, trees fell elsewhere were imported resulting in higher home building costs.
An Owl is more important than an economy, a Bass is more important than an economy, a tree is more important than a atheletic facility at Bereley, a river more important than human thirst, a free flowing river more important than the future. We laugh at the tree huggers and then we hug fish? Makes real sense to me. Delta fish are more important than the entire state economy? This is a self centered self serving illustration of Northern California fishing special interests and it speaks poorly of them. There is no way we can shut the pumps down without shutting down this state.

[mark poulson]

I agree that shutting down the economy is stupid. Hopefully, the judge's ruling will make the State actually address the water issue, instead of just pumping more.
Kind of reminds me of how property taxes were raised whenever they needed more money, without regard for how unfair it was to homeowners, until Prop. 13 was passed.
Long term solutions that are sustainable, if they are adopted, will be environmentally friendly, because they won't include excessive pumping. A reasonable plan, with a reasonable time frame, is what we all have been waiting for. Maybe this judge's ruling will finally hold the bureaucrats' and politicians' feet to the fire, and force them to do the right thing.

[troutnut]

It is called "equal protection under the law. "



DWR has had 30 years to comply with a law that DFG would cripple a public citizen for not complying with!

I for one am glad CSPA has called the state on their hypocricy!

Our state officials thumb their noses at us every day, all the while B#$ching about how they need more of our tax money because their department is soooo underfunded!


They have known about the decline of the Smelt, stripers and salmon for more than 5 years, had plenty of time to get this document together, and CSPA informed them or their intention to sue 14 months ago. DWR and DFG told them to go pound sand! I have no pity for Mike Chrisman or Ryan Brodderick. GET TO WORK YOU BUMS! Killing and endangered species is killing an endangered species, no matter who does it. It would be no different if I took my shotgun out and started shooting Bald Eagles and Condors! Lets see how many Game Wardens they would send to my front door if I did that!

All of the restoration and endangered species protection could be easily financed by a small fee ($1 or less per acre foot) charge on ag water, which already is too cheap. Forcing ag to step into the 20th century (never mind 21st) and stop wasting water, growing crops on land that aren't suited for crops, overfertilizing, overpesticiding, overwatering with flood irrigation,... they need to be stewards of the water and the land they got for next to nothing. Water dist and ag are HUGE political donators, which is why no one ever forces them to move into the 21st century. The state owned pumps in Tracy have poorly designed fish screens that don't do their jobs. They pump more than 10,000 cfs. ( more than ALL of the water coming down the Sacramento river AND the Feather River right now http://cdec.water.ca.gov/river/upsacto3Stages.html http://cdec.water.ca.gov/river/featherStages.html ) out of the system and into canals to ag and southern california swimming pools and lawns.


So the state has to comply with the laws everyone else has to now, I SAY ABOUT FRIGGIN' TIME!

Time for the DFG and DWR wheels to start earning their new 27% pay raises.

[NaCl]

When two parties have equal control in government, it often leads to "gridlock, a political condition in which neither party will negotiate to middle ground on governing issues. Gridlock is GOOD! It is the result of both parties maintaining strong representation on behalf of their constituency. Without such equal representation, democracy morphs into dictatorship by 51%...that's what we have in California right now.

With regard to water "rights", the water agencies (mostly SoCal) have dominated the decisions historically. If they continue this one-sided monopoly without resistance, there will come a time when the "Delta" is salt water all the way into Frank's Tract. The judge's decision is a minor obstacle to them. His order will soon get set aside by an appeal, and "business" will go on as usual. If we're lucky, the appellate level might impose some reasonable restrictions on growth that will produce a compromise.

BASSK9 is right about extremes in environmental regulation and its impact on the economy. There is potential to harm the state's economy IF the judicial ruling was actually capable of shutting down water delivery to the south. I'd say this judge caused a very interesting form of "gridlock"! You have the powerful water agencies pushing their agenda without checks and balances. Now, you have a judge threatening to curtail their activities...this gridlock is GOOD for the Delta. These two extremes will eventually negotiate a middle ground and both interests will be served. There will NOT be any wholesale destruction of the California economy. There will NOT be any wholesale destruction of the Delta. But, all of this will happen BECAUSE of the gridlock between...in this case...environmental agencies and the DWR.

Gridlock is the average taxpayer's protection against rogue government agencies trampling the public good. I love GRIDLOCK!

.....NaCl

[steve0806]

This is not a question of pumping more. It's about pumping at all. The pumps at the Banks Pumping Plant have killed 37 Smelt since the first of the year. That's one too many for the judge. It will take at least 15 months to go through the process to obtain a "Take Permit". If the pumps are shut down for that length of time, all contractors south of the Delta will lose their TOTAL water supply during that period of time. Now, that's stupid.

[mark poulson]

NaCl,
You love gridlock because you don't live down here in SoCal.

Seriously, I think you're right. The extremes on both sides swing the pendulum of change back and forth, and eventually it ratchets forward a notch toward progress. Without either, we'd have runaway policies, designed by bureaucrats who never leave their desks except to stop by Starbucks on the way to work and drive home.
The biggest problem in govt. is the disconnect between the people who make the laws and policies, and the rest of us who have to live with them.
What would happen if we passed an initiative that required all elected officials, state, county, and city, to use public services for themselves and their families? You know, the same services that they control the budgets for, and whose futures they hold in their hands.
What if they had to use public education for their kids through the first two years of college? Public transportation? Public health services? Since elected office is strictly a voluntary choice, and we, the public, as employers, can define the terms of employment, it wouldn't be unconstitutional. If they don't like it, don't run.
Just a hunch, but I bet all these sub-standard conditions and underfunding and porkbarrel inefficiencies would disappear.
I'd start with SOS, Save Our Schools, and make public education the first thing they'd have to use. Right now, it's like they're on a publicly financed cruise ship, throwing floation devices to the rest of us in a sinking dingy. Requiring them to use the public school system would put them right next to us on the oar bench. After all, no one bails faster than the guy on the sinking ship.
If the schools thing passes, and works, I'd move to public transportation and public health.
And I'd make every officer and his family in the Military use the Military health care system that they're in charge of. Talk about a disgrace, making our vets beg for healthcare.

[steve0806]

Where do you get the 10,000cfs figure?

[troutnut]

it's in this article:

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f ... OWATER.TMP

but here is the nuts and bolts, flows VS amount fish killed
http://wwwoco.water.ca.gov/calfedops/op ... report.pdf

http://wwwoco.water.ca.gov/calfedops/op ... n_2006.pdf
http://wwwoco.water.ca.gov/calfedops/op ... report.pdf

todays pumping at state water project:

http://wwwoco.water.ca.gov/cmplmon/repo ... taops.html

http://wwwoco.water.ca.gov/cmplmon/repo ... eport.html

http://wwwoco.water.ca.gov/weekly/WKWTRRPT


http://www.waterplan.water.ca.gov/docs/ ... v2ch05.pdf


CALFED's water plan was to increase pumping from the delta via an inter-tie canal to pump more water into the canals south depending on water quality at the pumping stations. All fisheris groups are asking is fix the fish problem in the delta first, then try to continue to rape, loot and pillage.

[Steve]

Dude, you are so narrow minded that Im not even going to respond to your comments. Youve got a long ways to go my friend.

[Rob T]

Without getting too detailed, I'll give one good example. Pacific Lumber Company was a good logging operation, the familiy that owned it for nearly a century established a profitable and SUSTAINABLE business that was a major contributor to the community of Carlotta in Nor Cal. The reason it existed that way with set holdings was because they didn't clearcut large tracts, but used selective harvest with smaller clearcuts at times. These sustainable logging practices had the added benefit of protecting the land and watershed, allowing healthy regrowth that could be harvested periodically without wrecking streams. Maxxam lumber came in, said that the growing economic need for lumber required tripling the logging rate on the land (a lie - they just wanted to clearcut for max profit margins). The problem was that this rate of harvest was not sustainable, ironically the loggers who fought against environmentalists that protested the type and extent of logging done by Maxxam eventually were logged right out of jobs! It not only put loggers out of work, it also resulted in damaging watersheds and the salmon fishery, helping to put multigenerational fishing businesses out of work. All for the sake of "progress". Per NACL, gridlock is good. It's not mandated that we have to increase the amount we take every year, and finding a sustainable way forward WILL be mandated sooner than later, because nothings an infinite resource, whether it be wood or water. Better to start learning that now that after a collapse.

[rickd]

BASSK9 are you kidding me?

Your comments are surprising to me because most people on this board are responsible sportsmen. As responsible sportsmen most of us like to protect the natural resources that we enjoy and take advantage of. The water resource of the Delta is here for us to enjoy and use for industry and living. Are we as responsible sportsmen going to support the overuse of this resource till it’s exhausted? I for one am not going to sit ideally by whiles our Delta gets abused by the south from over pumping. They need to take responsibility for their needs and find alternate resources for their water.

[Guest]

And it's not like shutting the pumps down immediately shuts off the water at someone's home or business immediately. Rather shutting down the pumps slows down the rate of water filling up the rest of the water shed down south. If anything it would push the DWR to focus in the short term on water conservation down south and focus their efforts on building water desalinization plants that would allow them to convert salt water into fresh drinking water.

The solution to Southern California's water problem is out there through technology developments in the desalinization, however it's still far cheaper for them to extract water from the Delta and ruin our fishery. Without this sort of gridlock as NaCl put it SoCal has no need to change from the status quo without considering the ramifications to the Delta.

As for the term "delta restoration project" that keeps getting thrown around, this project in no way will restore any sort of habitat to the delta. Really it's more of a cruel joke to even refer to it as a restoration project all all. What this project will do is facilitate a means for the pump operators to install dams so that they can pump even more water down south and possibly kill more fish in the process.

[Guest]

Now now... let's not jump on the anti-BassK9 bandwagon again... let's save that for the lounge! Don Davis is a good guy and is entitled to his own opinion on the subject. Heck he lives on the Delta in Disco Bay and is a good delta fisherman. He probably doesn't want the pumps to stop pumping water as his fish down south only turn on when their pulling water through the pumps....

isn't that right, Don?

Yeah I can see through his post to figure out why he really wants those pumps going down!

[troutnut]

you need to read this:

http://www.eswr.com/latest/307/igreport ... donald.pdf

[Guest]

Ok so I read this and what exactly are you referring to? i.e. what's your point with this link?

To me it sounds like internal bickering amongst a Fish & Game supervisor and the people she interacts with. On page 21 I see references to the delta smelt program where it sounds like Juli MacDonald was in the pocket of a 3rd party to remove the delta smelt from the endangered species list.

So really, what's new in this link? Yawn

Nothing in this is surprising to me especially after seeing "Thank you for smoking", "Fast Food Nation" or any of the Roger Moore movies. We know government is corrupt because if it wasn't nothing would get done.

"It is said that power corrupts, but actually it's more true that power attracts the corruptible. The sane are usually attracted by other things than power." - David Brin

[mark poulson]

Vince,
I think you're right. This judge has fired a shot across the bow of the entrenched water system. Stop throwing water from the north at a SoCal problem.
It is a flaw in the entire water distribution system. And the technology is there to fix it for now, and for the future. Desalinization.
Sure, it's expensive. But how expensive is it to have agriculture die off from lack of water? Or to try and restore a severely damaged Eco system after the fact?
We need the water system people to look at the big picture, and do what's right, not what's expedient and gets the most votes for their bosses.
Maybe this judge will make them do something right for a change.
At least it's a start.

[steve0806]

Just as I suspected, your statement that DWR was pumping over 10,000 cfs was a gross misrepresentation of fact. The links you furnished as a reply to my inquiry indicate otherwise. The 10,000 cfs figure is the maximum capacity of the Banks Pumping Plant near Tracy. Pumping activity is adjusted on a daily basis depending on a number of environmental factors. The Delta Operational Summary for March 28 was as follows: Sacramento River Inflow - 12,979 cfs Total Delta Inflow - 16,600 cfs Banks Pumping Plant Exports - 2,800 cfs. That information is from one of the links you posted. You can have any opinion you want about the SWP. Just don't play fast and loose with the facts.

[BASSK9]

A lot of this water hugging talk reminds me of the tree hugging ecoterrorists action committee. The Delta is in no way shape or form a natural ecology. This is all a result of the dredging and the rape of an original and vast marsh land. A place once so vast that a ferry service operated between Fresno and San Francisco. Wild rivers flooded the valley and Smelt thrived. Dams were bulit, floods stopped and people had water. Then immigrants decided to build levees and claim once often flooded land for farming. Such a great idea that California and the Federal government decided to create the Delta Levee's for the greater good of our society. And good it was! Agriculture exploded and fed the nation, the California economy thrived and people prospered. The Delta was channeled off, rivers diverted, marshes drained, ecology changed for the good of the people. Like it or not it is a fact that people exploit ecological resources in order to survive. The Delta has been exploited for the purpose of human survival in the form of food and drink and it must remain so.
Save the delta? It was diverted and lost 70 years ago! These canals and sloughs are nothing but a bunch of irrigation ditches designed to support the agricultural and human needs of California.
A more credible goal from all the Bass boys would be a lobby to destroy all the levees rip out all the dams and return the marsh to it's original ecoform! Ramifications? Of course but in the good name of restoration of a natural ecology! Minor stuff like the entire population of the East Bay and Southern California displaced, the economy destroyed and happy Smelt. Just think of all the Bass we could catch then with a marsh covering Sacramento, Lodi, Merced, Modesto all the way to Fresno. Lets all think big here in the name of ecology! Shutting the pumps off is a half step! Get a green judge and restore it all now!!
By the way- get rid of the Bass too- they are not a part of the original marshland ecosystem. This is a lot of blabber- Bass boys are concerned about Bass not Smelt, not ecology! Just Bass! All of this home building has placed the Burrowing Owl at great risk! Oh my God! Why don't Bass boys care? These windmills are killing birds! Poeple don't need electricity! They can be eco friendly and save the birds! All of the cars and outboard motors create acid rain. In the name of the ecosystem walk to work or bike to work and use sail powered boats or float tubes. Our special interest are Bass and no human needs are greater! By the way the Bass eat way more Smelt than the pumps kill! Best way to save a Smelt is to kill a Bass. Get a grip Judge! Restore the entire ecosystem now! Rip it all down with the stroke of your legal ecopen and the support of the Bass boys.

[sTony]

Well now, it's all been VERY interesting reading but I would caution all involved parties to please not bash anyone and keep this thread rolling without having to resort to personal attacks. Debate is wonderful and educational at that but I really don't want it to come down to name calling, PLEASE.

Thanks to all,

sTony

[rickd]

A lot of what you are saying I must agree with but the simple fact of the matter is there is no balance and no voice for fishermen concerning the Delta. I’m not only a bass angler I’m a saltwater fishermen and Coastsider as well. As a matter of fact I’ll be out there Saturday and Sunday chasing salmon.

Please take the time to read this article and let me know what you think. I don’t need to rewrite the book when Dan Bacher has already written it.

I don't want to be known as the whacky dude that posts all these Delta water issues but I feel like people should know how this process works. And after you read this article you'll get a better idea on what a sham it all is and that is what I want to get across to folks.

http://fishsniffer.com/dbachere/070319deltavision.html