Interesting post about AC team events.

RMANZO
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Re: Interesting post about AC team events.

Post by RMANZO »

steve,,,,,, you summed it up to the "T"!!!!!!! that is the point.....do you guys get it yet :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:
sker13
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Re: Interesting post about AC team events.

Post by sker13 »

Hardshell wrote:Do a little math on the payouts of FPT, WRL, and AC Simi-Pro. You'll discover the scam and see really how the anglers are being sucked into donating even more than the pro-teams. Let's be realistic here, the costs(gas,insurance, boat costs,tackle costs,launch fees) are the same to fish either, the only difference is the slight reduction in entry fees and proportionally the amount that the tournament organization takes is way higher in the semi-pro circuits. Add to that, if you think you are being "Allowed" to fish against an equal playing field of anglers with the same experience you are sadly mistaken because there are a bunch of guys fishing these circuits that have no business in them.

Hardshell




Nozmo King wrote:So let me get this straight… Is this whole thing the fault of the stupid tournie orgs for offering something to their customers that they like but shouldn’t actually want, or is it the fault of the stupid customers for asking for something they want but don’t really need?

I've done the math thats why we don't fish them anymore. Lots of good points made. Like the competition is just as stiff and the payout stinks. The low entry cost is the only reason to fish FPT. We cashed several checks in that circuit and they were very low for the amount of boats to say the least. Penny slots is a great analogy.
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RMARX
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Re: Interesting post about AC team events.

Post by RMARX »

Ruthman it is all in fun! If people are offended by "Mommy League" I am sorry, it is what it is, the Rookie events have split the regular team event numbers period. The newbies or semi-pro or future pro or whatever should not be afraid to work at it to compete with the "pro's" or in our case the "zipcode's" losing only motivates you to do better. Mr. Dobyns is correct beating up your two home bodies of water does not make you a "pro" it makes you a "zipcode", though I will say we have a couple zipcode guys that the real "pro's" should be happy are staying in thier own zipcode! (Kyle Rassmussen, Randy Pierson...) these guys could flat out catch fish anywhere!! In fact some of us "sort of ok win somtimes one dimentional big fish guy's" would encourage them to go and try the tour!! :D :D Bottom line is the lower circuits are killing the team events, there I said it three times!! Sorry to anyone offended by my jab! Now Ruthman don't you have rods to put away at the Baitbarn!! :shock:

Robert
Brian Ruthman
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Re: Interesting post about AC team events.

Post by Brian Ruthman »

Dang Marxmiller your so personal .....i like that :wink: i know its all in fun . :D I dont like the FPT , Semi-Pro or whatever you call it either . I agree 100% with you on what you have said .
I dont like turning anglers against each other by making them feel they are less of an angler , that is what i dont like . I had many guys turn on me when the whole FPT deal went down the other year , i know of only one guy who gave me any support and he knows who he is . Where was all my friends when i got shafted ? Talk is cheap for sure i learned that the hard way .
You think the new up and coming team guys really know what a good payout is ? They probably dont know any better and that is the way the guy who runs the circuit like it , they are fooled into thinking they are going to get someplace by fishing the FPT and such while he takes their money .
What is happening is the payout is getting lower and lower till it is not worth it to show up . That is the way i feel about the regular team stuff , i like it but im leaving it behind .
I signed up for the Pro/Am at Oroville win or loose im going to give it a go at all 3 events this year . I hope it will make me a better fisherman , i might just be donating to the guys with more time on these bodys of water , but you got to start someplace and when i put my mind to it i usually come out on top in the end .
So that is my opinion on it . Maybe we should go fishing togeather sometime , im tired of writing on this internet . Maybe i can show you how to throw the big bait on the Dobyn's 807 i picked up the other day . :D
RMARX
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Re: Interesting post about AC team events.

Post by RMARX »

Brian I do not take anything personal it is all fun to me, that said I do feel the lower fee, restricted events have hammered the real team events! You will do fine at the pro-am level, just stay focused and do not let people or comments they make get into your head, this stuff is 75% mental. I can not comment on the 807 as I have not seen one, but I would lay some cash on the rod I use throwing a BIG bait!! Huddlestons are not considered big to some of us, but I would not expect a 4"worm dragger to understand BIG!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: Good luck at the pro-am's and see you on Friday the 13th!!![/b]
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Ray L.
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Re: Interesting post about AC team events.

Post by Ray L. »

This is part of the problem not part of the solution.

This was written in this thread after Mark Paulson mentioned the top stick joe's
Well I am the t.d. for the top stick joe's and all I have to say is we are not in n. cal. so we really are not part of the problem. Myself and John Barron came up with the idea for a low cost team event with some rules about not letting teams fish our events if they have won more than a certain amount of money. These tournaments are in s. cal. and we in s. cal. do not have a format like this at all. N. Cal. does have it in the f.t.p. as well as other tournaments.
We felt it was needed in s. cal. because we need some new blood in the tournament scene in our area. I have fielded many calls from anglers who have never fished a tournament before but are interested in this format so I think we may have hit the mark at least in s. cal.
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Brian Ruthman
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Re: Interesting post about AC team events.

Post by Brian Ruthman »

Robert , Remember you showed me the baits that you throw at the Slug fest , i will have to check and see if the 807 is rated for 18" baits that weigh in at 5lbs .......LOL !
Hey i want you to know that i have moved up from throwing those 4" worms to Power fishing a 6"worm im starting to get a little better quality of fish now . :lol: :lol: :lol:
baitfish
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Re: Interesting post about AC team events.

Post by baitfish »

My son and I have been bass fishing for about a year now(So Cal). We are lucky to get out 3 times a month. We just don't have the “time on the waterâ€
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Brian
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Re: Interesting post about AC team events.

Post by Brian »

Didnt someone once say.

"If you afraid to run with the big dogs, Then stay on the porch." 8)


I would much rather fish against, Dee, Cooch, Andrews, Barrack, Ball, Ect on the Delta Than a bunch of weekend only anglers. You can learn more by just listening to guys like that than you ever will fishing rookie only events. If it is a money issue then keep the cheaper leuges but open them up to anyone that wants to fish them.
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Re: Interesting post about AC team events.

Post by mark poulson »

I agree that you learn more from people who actually know how to fish.
At the same time, it can be intimidating for new anglers to go head to head with the likes of Barrack and Cooch.
I understand that it's nice for accomplished anglers to be able to compete against the best, but it's important to remember that most new anglers need to be encouraged to learn and compete.
Unless there's somewhere for new guys to participate and grow and eventually move up to stiffer competition, there won't be any replenishment of anglers at the top levels when the ranks thin due to age and other circumstances.
No one is going to take a whipping every week, and keep coming back. Except your hard core, driven nutcases.
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RMARX
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Re: Interesting post about AC team events.

Post by RMARX »

Mark - I and I think most anglers would agree that a "minor league" system would work to "grow" the sport, IF the tourney organizations would graduate say the top 15 wheather or not they have made money after one or two seasons. After a couple years guys know how the game is played and should be required to move up. The reason the orgs will not do this is they are making too much money on the newbies and making them move up would be bad for the bottom line! The other issue is do away with the "money made" guidelines and only allow people who have fished very few or no organized events in to these circuits! I laugh everytime I read the names on the results in the motherlode as there are teams fishing the so called beginer events that have no bussiness fishing them, but they sneak in through a loop hole in the rules or because they are buddies with the TD! Heck I looked at the results of the last "semi pro" motherlode event run by Anglers Choioce and see guys who are fishing with thier kids that have won past events in the real team circuits and when I asked if I could fish with my now 11 year old who was 8 at the time I asked and I was told "absoluetly not" so the rules do not apply equally to everyone who fishes. If someone wins or places in the money one time in a regular team event they should NOT be allowed to fish a beginer event period. Again make no mistake the tourney organizations are not doing this to "grow" the sport, they are doing it to "grow" thier bottom line and as they are currently formatted they are total B.S. Ok off my soap box I have to go to Pedro...

Robert
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philip garcia
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Re: Interesting post about AC team events.

Post by philip garcia »

rookie league is what got me started. I would have never started fishing teams if that was the starting ground. Now I am considered a pro(wich I still don't think so) and I can't fish rookies anymore. I wouldn't be were I am if I didn't fish the ams for five years. Now I am a stren champion and a gold city angler of the year(on the pro side).All thanks to the am cuircut.
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Marty
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Re: Interesting post about AC team events.

Post by Marty »

I have been reading this post for about a week now and it started me to thinking – if everyone would only fish Team event for only a few years if they win or not and then move on up to Pro/AM draw non-shared weight and stop relying on their partners we would have bigger Pro/Am’s. Sounds kind of senseless don’t it? Just looking at it from a different perspective.
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Joe Bruce
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Re: Interesting post about AC team events.

Post by Joe Bruce »

if there were a pro am in my zip code every weekend I might see your point.
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Re: Interesting post about AC team events.

Post by Kevin Evans - Kap »

I just have to put in my 02 cents here, could not help it any longer.


It is like anything else if used properly and rules are obeyed and not abused.
WHAT HAPPENED TO THE HONOR SYSTEM. :shock:

So lets say the Orgs put a category or level of every angler that fishes there Org based on events fished.
With your membership is a card that states on the card your level.
You must have a card to fish the events.
The only folks that wont like this is the people who wont leave there own zip code to fish other events and sandbag the ones on THEIR water.

Beat me up now.. :D :D

Kap

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Johnny C
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Re: Interesting post about AC team events.

Post by Johnny C »

Guess I can't shut up either..But all I can can say is after looking at a few names on the FPT standings you can make up your own mind about how the rules are twisted. I am not bashing any of these orgs, but some of these guys fishing should be ashamed. And you know who you are.
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RMARX
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Re: Interesting post about AC team events.

Post by RMARX »

No kidding!!
Dan Pollard

Re: Interesting post about AC team events.

Post by Dan Pollard »

I feel I am a perfect example of a fisherman that choose to fish the Future Pro Tour instead of the traditional Team Tournaments.
About 12 years ago. I started fishing the Team events so I could fish with my son. I am not interested in fishing any Pro draw events.
I soon notices that most of the Tournaments were either won by the same minority or they were always near the top. Most of the time they had a lot of time to spend on the water, which I did not have, (there was a deffinite advantage there) It was Werstern Bass that started Future Pro. We were fishing Western Bass at the time, and liked the concept of it. We liked the low fees, because this stretched our fishing dollars. Vince was fishing it at the time.
We have fished 100% bass team and their Future Pro Circuit also, Angler Choice, team and Semi Pro. But we found that we got the most for our money fishing Vinces Future Pro Tour. We do not claim to know it all. We learn by time fishing on the water, and Listing to :Pro's that talk at every Tournament. We enjoy fishing all of the lakes up and down Northern Ca. We enjoy having the oppurtunity to fish for a boat at the Classic,We like the fact that there is large Tournament fields. we like the many extra things Vince provides, like Television coverage on some Tournaments. extra things to fish for, the great products he gives away, but the mostly the way Vince conducts the Tournaments making you feel like you are fishing in a Bassmaster tournament. and that you are special. Vince is a master at marketing. We have learned a lot taking advantage of the many oppurtunities to learn. all the time spending a lot less than traditional tournaments. I enjoy fishing with my son, We enjoy the different lakes, all over the country.
so no one can get a strangle hold as a one or two lake wonder We fish both Northern and Central circuits with Vince and will continue to as long as he permits us to. We think it is the best circuits for us.
I think that others should study what Vince does and try to incorporate that in to their circuits, instead of trying to tear him down. It is simply a case of the best value for the money for us.
It seems obviously that it is working and has worked for many years, change what you are doing, not tear down what others are doing that are successful. Learn by example.
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Re: Interesting post about AC team events.

Post by RMARX »

OK
Last edited by RMARX on Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
Dan Pollard

Re: Interesting post about AC team events.

Post by Dan Pollard »

Rmarx You are right we won a boat fishing AC Semi Pro so we can not fish semi pro any more, if we wanted we would have to fish team events also 100% Bass we could not fish their Future Pro. What some on this thread want would require for all Bass Fishermen to belong to a governing board that set up circuits based on the fishermens ability. Same thing if you said that some one could not shop at Wal-Mart because they made to much money
The way it is now in Tournament fishing you can fish any Circuits you want as long as you can meet the Circuits crituria. You could fish any team tournament from Angler Choice. or 100% Bass if you just started out fishing as a true beginner. There is no rules or regulations except what is set up by each Circuit. Vince has his set of rules. If Vince ever startes up a Pro Circuit, he will have certain rules that he will require be meet in order to fish either Future Pro Tour or Pro Circuit. Just because the name implies that it is a Future Pr Circuit does not require it to only be available to only amatures. As I said you could choose as a amature to fish team tournaments from 100% or Anglers Choice and be a amature. your choice choose which ever Crcuit you wish to and enjoy. For my money it is Future Pro Tour.
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Re: Interesting post about AC team events.

Post by basshol »

say what you want i know of guys who are fishing future pro who are previous anglers of the year i know of one who has won more than 12 grand in a season dont see vince or 100percent stopping them from fidhing semi pro is a money pit for the org. more money brought in the better there not regulating there rules like said there bring the numbers down cause a lot of these guys fish the semiv only now. man up take your licks. i fished 4 years and cashed 1 $100 check .now in the last 4 years i got 2 top 5 in ac toc and at least 10 top 3 in reg tourneys if your scared to fish against somebody you got it wrong you fish against the fish not the person. im lucky if i get 2 days of pre nfish. so im testimony it can be done look me up oscar sarnecki if u think im full of it
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Re: Interesting post about AC team events.

Post by Dan Pollard »

Oscar That is my point. Apparently you are happy and fish the circuits that meet your needs. We also are happy, and fish were we like. Since there is no national or state governing body to control or set up rules or guide lines, then it is a simple matter of fish and let fish. don't try to make everyone fit what you feel is right. Each Tournament circuit can make there own rules and permit whom ever they want to fish. then it is up to each to choose. it is a free society. and only the best will survive. that is the only rule that counts.
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Re: Interesting post about AC team events.

Post by Bassman35 »

I've read all the posts and yes I started the whole womans league comment. If you feel your too intimidated to fish against people people like Kyle, Alex, Joe, Randy, and many other sticks then you have already defeated yourself. Me and Robert are lucky if we prefish at all. Honestly I have 1 day of prefishing since September. We have fished a number of tournies and done well in some and poorly in others. The bottom line is that if these leagues are such great values then why is the money taken in kept a secret? Love him or nor not Robert Manzer shows you where every dollar goes. He tries very hard to run a professional circuit and does a great job at it. Quit trying to justify why your not fishing against the people who do well. If it was about growing the sport then do so. Put a time limit on it. Two years and your done. I think the idea is solid about the beginners having to start somewhere but why is it you can fish pro-ams as a pro but fish a beginners league. Not sure how that works. Do you realize that if the numbers for the po mans where the same that you would know where your money goes and why everyone gets what they do? Im sure that Manzo could work out a pay scale for 80 boats and u could see the differences. If you are fishing these and see someone who fishes the regular events then call the directors and find out why. Shouldn't you deserve a reason of why you are forced to fish against pro's. How does this benefit a beginner? If you have won a boat how are you a beginer? If you have won multiple regular team events how are you a beginer? If you have ever beat the guys mentioned above how are you a beginer? I know personally I have been beaten by many of the so called beginers and I'm not allowed to fish. The people that are the true beginers are the one being targeted again. You should be outraged that this is going on.
Anyway I have gone on long enough and I hope the people that are being taken advantage of by the current rules speak up. As i was told this is supposed to be your league.
Bryan Cox
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Re: Interesting post about AC team events.

Post by Dan Pollard »

Bryan I think you missed my point. Yes I have fished against Kyle, Alex, Joe Randy, and I will add Cooch and Bobbie etc I consider them and many more a step above, If I beat them I would be proud of it. I do not consider myself a beginner, nor do I consider myself a Pro, (Pro as those and others mentioned above) I consider myself some one in the middle. I don't consider the Future Pro Tour solely for beginners, for i see many who fish it year after year, several I know have won boats, Future Pro is attractive to amatures as well as some experienced. As I said before each Circuit offers something of value, you as a fisherman must decide which one best suits you, period. As I said before some people shop at Wal Mart, some Save Mart, sone Safeway, and Others Raleys. Each has something of value to offer. You choose thats it period. I do not want to compare various circuits, for they are all good, but different, and I have fished Anglers Choice, 100% Bass
Western Bass all team Tournaments, I enjoyed them all. Right now I want to fish Future Pro Tour. and as long as we can we plan to.
thats my choice, maybe its not for you, and thats fine.
2ndsuks
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Re: Interesting post about AC team events.

Post by 2ndsuks »

Bobbie! is she good, what circuit does she fish?
allbelac
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Re: Interesting post about AC team events.

Post by allbelac »

I finished 105th one time and beat Dee Thomas, does that mean I am a pro? Hell, the first year I fished A/C prior to the semi pro I even had a tenth place finish and was in sniffing distance of a check, does that mean I am a pro? I now fish the semi-pro motherlode with A/C. Would I fish with the pro teams if I did not have the semi-pro option, I do not know, but for me...the semi-pro division is the best choice at this time. I enjoy fishing with that group, I enjoy knowing I will qualify for the TOC if I fish all the events, I enjoy not having to make fishing 'work'. When I fished the pro-teams Nobody would give advice, info, help, encouragement, hell even talk to me, but on the Semi Pro side, information is shared, advice is given if asked, most will give encouragement to the struggling teams, the entire atmosphere is different.
My choice is the Semi-Pro side until I do not have that option and I will seriously have to weigh my options before I fish the Pro Teams.
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MIKE TREMONT
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Re: Interesting post about AC team events.

Post by MIKE TREMONT »

allbelac
the semi-pro division is the best choice at this time. I enjoy fishing with that group, I enjoy knowing I will qualify for the TOC if I fish all the events, I enjoy not having to make fishing 'work'. When I fished the pro-teams Nobody would give advice, info, help, encouragement, hell even talk to me, but on the Semi Pro side, information is shared, advice is given if asked, most will give encouragement to the struggling teams, the entire atmosphere is different.
Well said.

Some guys want a level playing field because it makes them feel more comfortable. Some guys want to run with the big dogs because that challenges them more an they feel better about themselves no matter where they finish. Some guys feel the lower entry fee makes it for them. Some guys start a thread and go fishing for idea's :shock: . It's all good, we're all trying to be the winner.

Everything is always evolving, always trying to improve. I think you see that the orgs and the specialty events (Snag Proof, Berkley Big Bass, etc...) are trying to bring something for all of us that are fun and where the playing field is somewhat leveled.

Problem, everyone has a different idea of what's right for them, that ain't never gonna change. One day an org will get it just right and a grab a larger percentage of us. Until either they start changing it up, or someone else improves on their idea, or people just move on cause it didn't work for them! People (I) hate not being competitive, no matter what level we're on.

Just two idea's I haven't heard yet.

A handicap system.

A maximum line strength. Your roughest toughest anglers with 4lb test max in their hands.
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basshol
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Re: Interesting post about AC team events.

Post by basshol »

well heres my point they make there rules but dont enforce them some people who fish the semi shouldnt be the directors if they did there job wouldnt let them fish. bottom line some people should be fishing the pro teams and not the semi ,icant say the semi are bad im gonna fish them with my 6 year old daughter since i spoken my point with my name attatched they probably stop me but since they never check the status of any body i dought itll be a problem
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swimbait
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Re: Interesting post about AC team events.

Post by swimbait »

Tournament fishing is just a legalized way to gamble. What makes it a little different than other forms of gambling, is that you are gambling on yourself.

People who gamble prefer varying amounts of risk, and are interested in wagering varying amounts of money. In addition, people who gamble prefer various amounts of luck in their games. I'm picturing Chevy Chase playing War in "Vegas Vacation" vs. a Texas Holdem tournament.

No surprise that a range of options are available for us gamblers, er... tournament anglers. Assuming that most people fishing the rookie leagues are interested in a pretty even playing field where different people wind up winning from event to event - I think the rookie leagues fall more on the Chevy Chase / War spectrum, whereas the Elite Series is more in the Texas Holdem spectrum.

Oop, I probably offended someone there. Sorry gang. Dogpile on me :) Not all analogies are perfect.

From a selfish point of view, I'd prefer all rookie leagues go away, because I'd like to see bigger fields in so called "Pro" team events where I fish. But I understand why these leagues exist. It's a product catering to us gamblers. If the house (the tourney orgs) can draw the numbers by providing the product, then it is what it is.
RedRock__ECV
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Re: Interesting post about AC team events.

Post by RedRock__ECV »

Hey guys,

I can agree with both sides of the fence but here is the way I look at it. I don't care if KVD, Skeet Reece, Bill Dance or even if Gary Dobyns is fishing the same tourney, I will shake there hand and wish them the best of luck and do my best to whoop their Azzes. If for some dumb luck i beat one of the "PROS" well that is bragging rights, but the realiety is I can't afford to spend 5k to fish those tourneys. I know a lot of you are saying that these cheap tourneys are attracting a lot of anglers and maybe messing up the real tourneys, but the truth of it is that there is a lot of people that want to fish compettive. I have the same goal as most of you and that is to go "PRO", to get that sponsor and all the cool stuff that goes with it, but you got to crawl before you walk and walk before you run. I beleve that these low budget tourneys are a stepping stone for us that want to climb the ladder of befoming a "PRO".


Just wanted to voice my opinion to my fellow anglers but I had no antention to affend anybody.

Fish hard and wish you all well.

Take care all
Fish hard
Work Harder
Take care of your family
The rest just falls into place
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