Metal detectors at bass tournaments?...

Shad*Wizard · Post by **Shad*Wizard** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 6:14 pm

I see it in the near future...I took a one ounce lead weight out in the backyard just now and threw it on the ground where I had previously waved my White's XLT over the spot with no indication of metal...The detector lit up like the "Jackpot Party" slot machine did up in Jackson last week...Garrett and White's both make the handheld wand type for around $230 or so...Pretty cheap investment for a tourney org. if you ask me...

Update: Now I'm seeing around $159 or so online...

MikeL. · Post by **MikeL.** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 6:54 pm

How will it differentiate between a swallowed hook and a weight?

Kill the fish and clean it to verify a swallowed hook or wieght?

I see lots of dead bass that route

jimmy87 · Post by **jimmy87** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 6:57 pm

some times a fish swollows lead as well. split shots even.

what happens if one catches a bass that another person put lead in a month ago

tunaman · Post by **tunaman** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 6:58 pm

Sensitivity adjustments... calibrate it before the weigh-in. There's a huge difference between the reading of a hook and a lead weight big enough to make a difference.

I think it is a great idea myself... I was thinking it is time for an xray, but that wouldn't be cost-effective. This solution actually would be, and could go a long way to detect any tampering.

Roger

Garrettt · Post by **Garrettt** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 7:01 pm

at least on everyone that cashed a check.

Or lie detector, then xray.

Brian Linehan · Post by **Brian Linehan** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 7:02 pm

Lets call the TSA!

jimmy87 · Post by **jimmy87** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 7:35 pm

maybe when suspect? I am not sure of bass cause I dont kill them.
but planter trout have weights in them often. there is alot of stuff in the belly from the lakes bottom. things like gravel, wood fragiments, plastic, split shots, hooks, you name it. I have found more than once cigerate butts.
maybe because those are stupid planter trout?

so lets say they detect metal. It turns out to be a small split shot or a bb. You kill a fish?
with the size of those weights shown in the pictures I am certain one could feel those in the belly.
Maybe try a trial run with a metal dectecor in a few tournaments just to see how often it goes off.

ChaChaChicken · Post by **ChaChaChicken** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 7:41 pm

This is easy, why do you think FLW went to using a water tank for weigh in?? If you weigh in 5 fish, drop them in the tank and 2 of the fish fall straight to the bottom and can't swim, RED FLAG. Why are these 2 fish laying on there side, but still alive??? Maybe we should feel there stomach's, x-ray what ever. Point is, fish in a bag, setting in a plastic box on a scale cannot give any hints as to what this jack *** just put down my throat!! By the way, DEAD fish 90% of the time float, think about it if they had a water weigh in tank at the open! If I was the weigh master and a dead fish did not turn upside down in the tank, I would think something was not right. Bring on the water weigh in tank!!

tunaman · Post by **tunaman** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 7:44 pm

Again, you guys aren't familiar with modern metal detectors... they now have gain and sensitivity settings that let you not only adjust for the amout of metal, but also for the general type. The ones used for gold are really good at isolating promising returns, and you could set it to only alert for larger samples, say of an ounce or more. That would prevent false readings for split shot, BBs, hooks, etc.

It is certainly doable, and would help protect the integrity of the sport and those honest anglers who comprise the majority of the fields.

Roger

tunaman · Post by **tunaman** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 7:49 pm

ChaChaChicken wrote:This is easy, why do you think FLW went to using a water tank for weigh in?? If you weigh in 5 fish, drop them in the tank and 2 of the fish fall straight to the bottom and can't swim, RED FLAG.

Red flag... maybe. Don't have much experience fizzing bass, do you? If you take too much air out when fizzing a bass it will drop like a rock to the bottom of the livewell. Nothing wrong with it, except it needs to readjust it's bouyancy chamber so it can achieve neutral bouyancy once again.

The plexi tank is nothing more than a prop made for TV. Certainly not a fraud detection system.

Roger

ChaChaChicken · Post by **ChaChaChicken** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 7:55 pm

tunaman, pay attention next time to a FLW weigh in next time. If a fish is dead, it FLOATS! Like I said in my prior post, if its ALIVE and laying on its side, lets check this fish out! Pickin up what I'm putting down tunaman?? I have fizzed many of fish by the way fishing tournaments for the last 15 years. Bring on the water tank!!

tunaman · Post by **tunaman** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 7:59 pm

ChaChaChicken wrote:tunaman, pay attention next time to a FLW weigh in next time. If a fish is dead, it FLOATS! Like I said in my prior post, if its ALIVE and laying on its side, lets check this fish out! Pickin up what I'm putting down tunaman?? I have fizzed many of fish by the way fishing tournaments for the last 15 years. Bring on the water tank!!

Sorry man... what part of this got lost in the translation:

drop them in the tank and 2 of the fish fall straight to the bottom and can't swim

If it is dead, the fins don't move either... not too hard to determine a fish is dead. Still don't get what you think the plexi tank accomplishes, but glad you're convinced.

Roger

ChaChaChicken · Post by **ChaChaChicken** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 8:02 pm

Nice sample, put the whole quote up. Your worse than my wife...

Robert F · Post by **Robert F** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 8:03 pm

Maybe we can have the weigh-ins at the airport security check. Please take off your shoes and place your bag on the conveyor.

tunaman · Post by **tunaman** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 8:15 pm

ChaChaChicken wrote:Nice sample, put the whole quote up. Your worse than my wife...

Dude, your entire statement is four posts above it, and the entire quote is include in the post two posts above it. That was the relevant statement that I was addressing. Sheesh.

Roger

coyoteslayer · Post by **coyoteslayer** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 10:19 pm

They could use metal detectors and discriminate out ferrous metals such as steel hooks and only detect nonferrous metals such as lead, brass, and tungston. A little split shot would give a small signal if just one or two, but a ounce of lead would sound off loud and then take further actions. The fact of the matter is, fisherman should have intregity. If a guy is in the sport where he needs to cheat to make money, then he needs to find a new hobby or job.

bassaddicted · Post by **bassaddicted** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:07 pm

what happens if one catches a bass that another person put lead in a month ago

I think tissue would start growing around at some point.

Shad*Wizard · Post by **Shad*Wizard** » Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:08 am

Tunaman is right...These new high sensitive detectors can do a lot...Someone could call White's or Garrett and explain to them what your trying to accomplish...I believe they would be very helpful...They've spent decades experimenting to make the best units possible...Let them tell you if it's feasable or not...Explain to them about hooks, bb's, split shot, swivels, etc...Now whether bass like eating 1 ounce weights and up, that's another can of worms...Don't know how you call it there, but least you know you've got substantial extra weight in the fish...

I'll check the readings with my detector on hooks, bb's, split shot, etc. next...By no means a professional here, just wondering though...These high caliber detectors are like mini computers...They're only as good as the person running them...That's why I believe the manufacturers should be contacted...They are the professionals...

If a cheater knows your checking fish with a detector, I don't think he's going to throw 3 ounce weights down his fish...I remember seeing fish at a weigh-in one year and saying no way does that look like 19 lbs...My eyes said nope, the scales said Yep!...Hmmm?...Like Millie said, don't trust anyone!...Keep them cheaters guessing!...

Andy Giannini · Post by **Andy Giannini** » Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:55 am

The security wands are for bigger targets, not small hooks or bb lead shots. They would go "beep" over a weighted fish. Easiest thing to do, would be to wand them while the water runs out in the plastic weigh in drain bin. (Wash sink.)

With a little work, I am sure a custom fish checker wand could be built up if the factory had some criteria or specs to shoot for.

.02 A.G.

(With a conventional multi purpose metal detector it is easy to find lead sinkers at any beach. Many hooks, swivels, lost lures etc. The funniest things to find are definately car keys.

)

Shad*Wizard · Post by **Shad*Wizard** » Thu Jul 22, 2010 4:04 am

I checked a package of hooks, a swivel, and the one ounce lead sinker...All gave different numbered readings...You definately know when you wand over the 1 ounce sinker through the ear phone headset...Small split shot is next if I can find one...Great to hear from you, Andy...

Checked a 1/16 ounce bullet weight and the unit picked it up but the headphone signals were lighter and faded in and out...

tunaman · Post by **tunaman** » Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:04 am

And just for the record, I don't believe boat inspections are effective. Wouldn't be hard to hide such things on your person, or in inconspicuous locations in most boats. Can't see a pre-dawn inspection being successful in thoroughly checking all little hiding places one could find on the boat.

Also, such items could be placed somewhere on shore, or even planted in the water in a known location where they could be retrieved. Someone as diabolical as to have rigged up the torpedo sinkers with trap hooks as was the case here would have no problem circumventing any inspection process.

Not to mention the situations where a cage or net is used...

Really need to check the fish for foreign objects with a detector of some sort, and figure out ways to uncover any other means of cheating as possible. Each will probably require its own solution.

'Thorough' boat checks are a fruitless and futile waste of the staff and anglers' time IMHO.

Roger

Brian Linehan · Post by **Brian Linehan** » Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:10 am

Great Roger! Now Hippie is going to be stashing his nightcrawlers in his thong! I'm not doing a pat down on him

Ringer · Post by **Ringer** » Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:24 am

I use a detector and my 6 year old grandson has a $49 detector that will find split shot all day long. Cheap and easy way to find any lead or other metal in a fish. Just wand over the fish in the plastic basket and you will know. Don't need a high tech detector to find even small pieces of metal.

tunaman · Post by **tunaman** » Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:28 am

Thought you two already had some experience with that Brian???

It's good of you to make the statement, and if you really are inclined I'm sure you will do so, but to me there are far too many ways to circumvent an inspection that will tie up staff and significantly delay the check-in process to really make it worth the while to do so.

Checking the fish for heavy foreign objects is one that is a no-brainer and should be easily accommodated in a relatively cheap manner.

The rest aren't such simple equations to solve.

Good luck with your tourney - wish I was there to fish it!

Roger

tunaman · Post by **tunaman** » Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:30 am

Ringer wrote:I use a detector and my 6 year old grandson has a $49 detector that will find split shot all day long. Cheap and easy way to find any lead or other metal in a fish. Just wand over the fish in the plastic basket and you will know. Don't need a high tech detector to find even small pieces of metal.

But that's the point... it isn't the small pieces they'd be looking for. Plenty of fish will have hooks or sinkers buried in them which haven't passed through, so it really needs to be able to discern the difference between a split shot and a torpedo sinker.

They're not that expensive... and it would be a one-time cost with a little training involved.

Roger

Oldschool · Post by **Oldschool** » Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:31 am

The money tournaments in Texas, where cheating was common, the top 10 finishers must now take a lie detector test. Metal detectors can't find salted fish or live bait fish.
Tom

Ringer · Post by **Ringer** » Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:45 am

That's true and they can't find cages either. I am thinking we will see a lot more people with binoculars shadowing frequent money winners from now on.

Greg_Cornish · Post by **Greg_Cornish** » Thu Jul 22, 2010 12:46 pm

If someone finds a gold wedding ring in a fish at Clear Lake, call me.

tunaman · Post by **tunaman** » Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:00 pm

Ringer wrote:That's true and they can't find cages either. I am thinking we will see a lot more people with binoculars shadowing frequent money winners from now on.

As I said, there are several issues requiring separate solutions... no one solution will solve all the possibilities, and no one solution will be infallible.

And good luck 'shadowing' someone on the Delta or Mead or Havasu, etc..., and good luck getting close enough to actually have been able to see what was done in this case. As Shawn suggested, it would require observers on each boat to really effectively monitor for fraud.

Roger

MikeL. · Post by **MikeL.** » Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:14 pm

As cheaters being cheaters goes, how long till they find a non metallic substance to stuff in these fish to render metal detectors ineffective?

tunaman · Post by **tunaman** » Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:22 pm

Don't know... do you know any non-metalic substances that have enough mass to make a difference? I can't think of any...

Shad*Wizard · Post by **Shad*Wizard** » Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:22 pm

Yes, I thought about that too, Mike L...Heck, at a tournament just walk around with a Garrett detector, don't even turn it on, you'll make the cheaters nervous I bet if they're up to something...There's only so much you can do...Yeah and invention wise, a weigh in device for fish tournaments that also doubles as a metal descriminator...Someone else already mentioned it publicly so the 1 year disclosure date kicks in from the time of his public disclosure...Meaning he has up to 1 year to file a patent...If he doesn't file, anybody can make it from what I've read at the Patent Office site...

PF3352 · Post by **PF3352** » Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:27 pm

Download the app for your Iphone or Droid. Metal Detector. It works...

MikeL. · Post by **MikeL.** » Thu Jul 22, 2010 6:35 pm

tunaman wrote:Don't know... do you know any non-metalic substances that have enough mass to make a difference? I can't think of any...

3/4-1 inch river rock?

Heard of them?

Plastic containers full of sand, etc, etc

tunaman · Post by **tunaman** » Thu Jul 22, 2010 6:41 pm

Yeah, I guess I don't have the mind of a cheater...

MikeL. · Post by **MikeL.** » Thu Jul 22, 2010 6:44 pm

tunaman wrote:Yeah, I guess I don't have the mind of a cheater...

I certainly hope your not implying I am

tunaman · Post by **tunaman** » Thu Jul 22, 2010 6:46 pm

Dude, get a grip! I don't even know the hell who you are, so why would I cast aspersions on your character??? Sheesh!

Roger

MikeL. · Post by **MikeL.** » Thu Jul 22, 2010 6:50 pm

You need to get a grip, I proved your theory foilable and you can't handle it.

tunaman · Post by **tunaman** » Thu Jul 22, 2010 6:56 pm

You da man

MikeL. · Post by **MikeL.** » Thu Jul 22, 2010 7:00 pm

tunaman wrote:You da man

Acknowledged

Brian Linehan · Post by **Brian Linehan** » Thu Jul 22, 2010 8:04 pm

I HAVE FOUND THE SOLUTION FOR METAL DETECTORS

CRISS ANGEL!!!!!!!!!ARE YOU READY!

TEAMDEADMONEY · Post by **TEAMDEADMONEY** » Thu Jul 22, 2010 8:08 pm

Brian...I had speculation about you for a while...Now you confirmed it...You're a flamer!!!

Pete

Brian Linehan · Post by **Brian Linehan** » Thu Jul 22, 2010 8:14 pm

WORD

jrbasspro · Post by **jrbasspro** » Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:04 am

Pete now we know why he is always looking up in the trailer, the poster of his ANGEL is taped to the celing.

the lie detector is the only way to go, when i first cut my teeth in florida about 20 years ago every major tournament had a lie detector test before any cash was handed out, and beleave it or not it did not take that long how hard is it to ask five questions

the unknowns are --the cost of the machine if some interprizing individual take on this task think about it as a side job with tournaments every weekend.

the required training

and is it legal in the statetournament reglations that we sign almost every year would cover this

if the costs could keep resonable some one could make some decent money on the side and help us police ourselves (remove anydoubt)

walt

mark poulson · Post by **mark poulson** » Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:44 am

From what I've been told, lie detector tests cost $600+- a pop.
That expense would have to come out of the paybacks, or be incorporated into the entry fees.
I don't know if a trail could have someone trained to do it theyselves, but the equipment can't be cheap.
I do livewell and boat checks for Mike Iljin's AC Castaic tournaments, and I'm the weighmaster, AKA The Thumb.
I don't know of any practical way to prevent a cheater who is serious from doing it.
It would be easy for someone who wants to cheat to keep a baggie of crawlers, or dead shad, in their pocket before launch, and use them.
A metal detector would seem to me to be reasonable for detecting lead weights, but it probably wouldn't show rocks. A good cheater could pour his own custom rocks out of rapid set mortar or pourstone, and carry them in his pockets, too.
At the risk of taking Brian's fun away, we could use bait-sniffing dogs, I guess, but that could be embarrassing for those who aren't hygenically inclined, or who go commando.
Maybe a random lie detector test, once throughout the tournament year, might be doable, but guys who cheat would probably figure the law of averages is on their side, with 7 to 1 odds that this isn't the tourney to be tested.
But, in the end, I doubt you can make any tournament cheater-proof.
I think it comes down to the fact that you can't change human nature.
Where there's sports competition for money, there's room for cheating. Gambling, especially betting on your own performance, is always a concern, as it seems to bring out the worst in some people.
Personally, I'm looking for a livewell additive enhancer from Balco, that causes fish to water bloat and put on pounds around the belly and hips.

Bill Hutcheson · Post by **Bill Hutcheson** » Fri Jul 23, 2010 9:27 am

****************NEWS FLASH*******************

In response to the recent wave of cheating, a consortium of West Coast tournament directors have all pitched in and hired a freelance tournament staff of former CIA and KGB black operatives to work our events.

Prior to the awards ceremonies, all anglers participating in the event will be repeatedly waterboarded to insure that they are indeed telling the truth with regards to the means and methods by which thier catch came to the scales.

When you pull up to the tournament and see a bunch of chisle jawed strangers dressed in black muscle shirts (I have to be careful - B Linehan is getting excited about his event already and ready to sign up for the year) you will know that this new tournament format is in play.

jrbasspro · Post by **jrbasspro** » Fri Jul 23, 2010 9:49 am

Hutch

your killing me! LMAO

the comment at Brian L. slayed me!!

Sorry Brian but I dont care who you are! thats funny

walt

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