If FLW OUTDOORS brings BFL's

Colebass · Post by **Colebass** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 11:45 pm

back to the west, would you fish them?

gt5bass · Post by **gt5bass** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 6:54 am

I would love to see the BFL's come back to the West Coast. I bring it up every time I get the opportunity with Charlie, Chris and the FLW folks.

Bill K · Post by **Bill K** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 7:07 am

As a non-boater, sure would, especially if the entry fees are not out of my budget. Being a old Fart and on fixed income.. Bill K

gt5bass · Post by **gt5bass** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 7:30 am

Bill,
Â
2006 Wal-Mart BFL entry fees

One-day Qualifying Events (4 per season):
> Boater $200
> Co-angler $100

Super Tournaments Two-day Qualifying Events (1 per season-last event):
> Boater $300
> Co-angler $150

+ Entry Free Regional Championship for top 40 Pro's & Co's from each division

+ Entry Free All-American Championship for Top 6 Pro's & Co's from Regional Championship

All the details: Wal-Mart BFL - http://bfl.flwoutdoors.com/rules.cfm?cid=2

Gary Dobyns · Post by **Gary Dobyns** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 8:35 am

If we are wishing, why not wish for a SERIES or TOUR curcuit. I think it would be pretty cool to finish 50th out of 200 boats and win $10000. Think about it. On a 6 tourament schedule, if you made the 50th place check twice, you just payed for all your entrys plus most, if not all, your expenses. If you finish 50th in 4 events you just made $20000 profit for the year. If you made the 50th cut all 6 times, $40000 profit. This does not even take into the fact if you finish well in an event. The entry fee is steep $2700, I think. I don't believe anyone fishing tournaments, doesn't think they can't make 2 top 50's in 6 events. These events pay a 1 in 4 payback. I just really don't know if we have 150 anglers that would step up to the challenge of a $2700 entry fee. I said 150 because I believe we could draw at least 50 from the central or eastern U.S. that are on a waiting list hoping to get in or would like to fish some of the best waters available and many of those are HERE. Also It would make a true national circuit. What does everyone think?

mac (Doyle McEwen) · Post by **mac (Doyle McEwen)** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 8:46 am

You have several good points there..I know that if I had the dough, which I don't, you could count me in..The returns sound pretty darned good..Something tells me that it might be a better turn out than the normal..

mac

Ray L. · Post by **Ray L.** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 8:51 am

That is something I would be all in on if it ever happened. I do agree with you that somewhere in the range of 50 boats would come from other regions.

Colebass · Post by **Colebass** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 9:03 am

I just didn't think most on this board (no offense) were think of fishing those "Bigger" events.

Your right about drawing from the central part of the counrty. Our lakes and river systems are gaining national attention! And I also agree I think I can finish in the top 50 at least twice (not bragging, just the way it is!HAR!HAR!)

Lots of folks monitor this board and I'm glad for one that you are taking the time to add your opinion. I'd like to see more folks put their .02 in on this and take the BFL poll. If you look at how many folks view the post, verse taking the poll or giving their opinions.

We as angler's have the chance to let folks hear us and it seems folks don't mind saying something when they disagree (not you) with like BASS or something. Yet we have the chance to send FLW another solid message, the first being that we filled the Stren Series.

So, I would fish the large enrty events if they were out west. That is not to say i would never go east or in the central part of the country, because as my kids get older or my job responseibilities change I may be willing to do that. And if they were here, they may intice me more to do so.

Sorry for the long post, see you all at Havasu.

NaCl · Post by **NaCl** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 10:24 am

I think FLW will seriously consider your idea IF they see full fields in all the Stren Western events this year. But, if they can't fill every one in the western Stren series then it is pretty obvious that there won't be enough anglers willing or capable of stepping up to a $2700 entry fee....yet!

As far as BFL, I suspect they'd have full fields in all their events and western anglers would have another quality choice of major circuits.

.....NaCl

Mark Langner · Post by **Mark Langner** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 10:41 am

I'm at the Federation and club level now...but what you described Gary is exactly what I'm working toward as a goal. This year I plan to fish one Stren event as a non boater...see how it goes. I'm looking at very likely doing some U.S. Anglers Choice semi pro team tournaments this year as well. I'm planning on fishing all 4 Stren events next year as a boater. I'd love to see something like that come out our way....

Colebass · Post by **Colebass** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 11:32 am

HAR!HAR!

Ok, it's a fishing web-site

justin lucas · Post by **justin lucas** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 11:35 am

I most definetely would fish the BFL's. If you look at all pros from the FLW Tour and even many from BASS most of them have started their careers fishing BFL's. The closest thing we have would obviously be the 100% Pro/ams, but even though Korny runs an awesome circuit and pays back a ton of money, he does not recieve the national publicity nor does it give you the chance to move up the ranks with FLW. I do not know if they would fill the field of 200 boats for BFL's if they brought them back out here, but I do know they would draw 150-175 boats. BFL's PLEASE COME BACK OUT HERE!!! In the mean time I will be fishing the 100% Pro/ams as a boater, Delta Federation (Thanks FLW), and all the Stren Series as a co-angler. Should be a fun and busy year! See you guys on the water and tight lines!

Justin Lucas

Oh yeah I forgot to mention...A chance to fish in the All-American would be really awesome!

Dewayne · Post by **Dewayne** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 12:23 pm

I know I would love to fish a Western Tour if I could figure a way to make it work. One issue though, is many of us here in the West have to work to afford these expensive homes. If I were to fish a tour, I would have to give up the Stren Series. I don't know if enough of us in the West that are full time or have a situation where we can fish 10-12 week long tournaments in a year.

Heck, even BFL will pull some away from Stren series, but at least in that case it is a weekend series when it might draw in some new people.

NaCl · Post by **NaCl** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 2:39 pm

Ron C · Post by **Ron C** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 6:58 pm

â€¦and one thing that I have noticed is that history repeats itself. Would I like to see the FLW Series come west? You're damn right I would - and I believe that it eventually will. But here are the problems that I see and the reasons why it probably wonâ€™t happen for a while:

There are (and will always be) a core group of (perhaps 50) Pros who would jump all over the $2,700 FLW Series entry fee, but this is just too tall of an order for most Western Pros. Keep in mind that B.A.S.S. had a difficult time filling three Western Open (150 pro) fields at $1,500 that included a shot at making the BASSMASTER Classic.

Guy's just donâ€™t travel - period. Most Northern guys stay north and most Southern guys stay south. This has been proven time and time again. In the old B.A.S.S. Western Invitational days (later called Opens), we NEVER had a full 200 angler field â€“ not once. Of course those were pro on pro draws, but the most that we ever had was 196 at the inaugural event at the Delta and that was as close as we ever got to a full field. (Man that was a great tournament!).

As the years progressed, these numbers fell significantly - especially when we kept going back to the Columbia River and to Elephant Butte. Now both the Columbia River and Elephant Butte were great places to fish, but most guys just wouldn't travel that far.

I have always felt that a true Western division should include places other than just in California and on the Colorado River. But every time a circuit went farther than this, their numbers plummeted. I can assure you that it is no coincidence that the 2006 FLW Stren Series is going only to California and to Lake Havasu. They are doing this because they know that the majority of Western Pros will not travel any farther than this. Face it, a good 80% of the guys who fished the old B.A.S.S. Invitationals and who are fishing the Western Stren Series were (and are) from California. I would really be surprised if 50 guys from back east (excluding Arizona and Nevada) would come out here to fish a Western FLW Series, if one existed. I would love to be wrong about this, but (again) history has shown that they just wonâ€™t do so.

FLW Outdoors created their new FLW Series events to facilitate the anglers who were thrown out into the cold when BASS/ESPN dumped the Opens. It was a VERY wise move by FLW and the fields back east are full or near full. But I just do not believe that we have enough guys out here to fill a 200 pro field at $2,700 per tournament (times five). A guy would have to be a full time professional angler or have financial assistance to fish on this level.

I will say this much, with all four Western Stren Series events now full (both Pro and Co) even before the first tournament, you can bet that FLW Outdoors will definitely consider bringing the BFL's back out west â€“ and probably real soon. However, Iâ€™m just not so sure that we can convince them to bring a Western FLW Series out here just yet. I just do not believe that we have enough guys willing to ante-up that much money, regardless of how great the payback is.

Just my thoughts on the subject.

ttb31183 · Post by **ttb31183** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 8:32 pm

I would fish them in a second. I want to get back to the All-American. All expenses (plane tickets, hotel, food, everything was paid for) and you get a check no matter what. It was the best tournament I have ever experienced.

RougeBass · Post by **RougeBass** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 8:41 pm

I'd be in!!!!!

Colebass · Post by **Colebass** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 8:47 pm

If you figure that 50 folks from the west would fish the FLW Tour/Series in the west and we draw another 50 or so boats from Colorado, NM, Texas, KS, NB and maybe some Northern folks, we'd only have 100 boats. So it may not happen for 2-3 years out. I think once we show that we will support and fill what we have we will be fine.

Now let's talk about this "No travel" issue. I beleive that issue has started to cure itself. Many more folks are going from North to South and so on. But you have to remember, I hear what your saying but for a guy from Northern to travel to Havasu or any of the others like 9-10 hours. For a guy back east to travel from say South Carolina to Florida is like 6-7 hours. So it appears he'll travel further, becaus he left the state. What about the so, cal guys to Travel to Shasta? It's a long haul, but you guy do it all the time. But because it's in California, it seems like you didn't leave your state and it's further than back east guys that go from Alabama to Georgia! So it's all relative. If you look at the guys that travel the most, it's from Texas or Van Dam from MI. Even for someone like Ike from Jersey to Georgia or Florida 10-11 hours.

Now I would ARGUE ALL DAY LONG with you or anyone else that Elephant Butte is even a good fishery, let alone a great one! It SUCKS! Now you So.Cal guys are really starting to come north and I think that gives us all an edge to attract FLW even more. I know and understand why they have the schedule the way they do this year. And you know what they did it right. They listed to what fishermen said and they are being rewared with a full field!

Do I think $2700 is a lot to fish in a tournament? You bet I do, but it's all relative. Like Dobyns said, even if I finish in 50th, it's 10K. If I finish in 50th at the BASS event, I get what $700-1000 for my $1500 entry. Try that one out on the family and the checkbook. Your better of in a No Limit hold'em tournament. And BASS had already had burned bridges out west and folks made them pay for that. The CLASSIC is huge, but it has lost some luster with folks. The math has to pencil. And the BASS math in the west, just doesn't due that!

I also think as fishing has gotten bigger, the "shared weight" that use to be the model in the west is actually lost it's momentum. Do I like the format? Yes, but I don't mind catching my own fish. And I think it makes the Pro be more Professional. You can't be a jerk and back seat guys, don't let them catch fish..It makes you work with them or you'll be labeled.

We have made ground out west and it's time to show we are ready for the National seen. It will happen. The guys that have went east have showed folks we can catch fish and they've talk great about our fisheries. So THANK YOU to the ones that have paved the road, Dee Thomas, Dave Gliebe, Gary Klein, Jay Yelas, Mike Folkstead and the new crop.....John Murray, Byron Velvick, Skeet Reese, Aaron Martens, Robert Lee, Mike Reynolds, Dean Rojas, Mike O'Shea, Ish Monroe, Gary Yamamoto, Mark Kile, Mark Tyler, Greg Gutierrez, Mark Rizk, Art Berry, Brett Hite and if I missed you, I'm sorry.

But you understand with that list, we are getting the attention.

FLW OUTDOORS, we'll see you soon!

Colebass · Post by **Colebass** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 8:55 pm

Rich hamilton · Post by **Rich hamilton** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 9:24 pm

Dewayne is right on. when you break down what it cost to live and what it costs here on the west coast, the amount of disposable income to fish is hard pressed to meet a $2700 entry fee. With a typical california house costing 400 to 500K it seems that living in and fishing in a place with 150K housing market it would be less on a person to spend 18K for a year. I realize that some wages differ from state to state but when you look at the number, 40% housing expenditure ratio in a typical family budget the fact that housing is out of control here makes it darn near impossible to have that type of disposable income.

I like Greg Hackney tremendously and in a recent interview he spoke of "putting it all on the line to pursue fishing" he was basically tired of people complaining about the cost and the route it takes to make it to his level. I feel there are very few guys like this around and the go for broke attitude he has is commendable to see but I really feel if he was living with his family here out west he would have to think twice to go the direction he has gone. Most fishing people here seem to have a very diverse life with fishing being a stress relief and a great competitive escape. At what price do you put it all on the line? RR

Colebass · Post by **Colebass** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 9:49 pm

I've meet and talked with Greg and your right, real nice guy. But for him, it was a no brainer. He had been fishing locally with success and where he lives, it was CHEAP! He lived in AR and moved to LA. So both ar e not expensive. If win a couple grand, it's great. if you do that here, it pays for the hobby!

Real estate prices have gone up in those area, but not as great as California.

Gary Dobyns · Post by **Gary Dobyns** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 9:43 am

Nice post, Ron. I sure cannot out-type you. You make some points but I can argue several. Elephant Butte sucks. Great fishery but way too small for a big event. Everyone wants to talk about fishing pro BUT, fishing pro means you need a chance to make money. At our current entry fee and pay out, you lose money many times after 5th place. The only guy who makes enough money to pay his entry, exspenses, and catch up on some of his loses is the winner. You are right that people don't want to travel. I agree. I am one of them. It is hard to travel and finish 10th place and lose your butt. I went to Powell, made the money and got $270 on a $600 entry fee. in a B.A.S.S. Western division tournament. Mark Lasange got 4th and received $1000. It might of been $2000 but I think it was a grand. With no payback, people cannot afford to travel and fish. Now if 50th place was 10 grand that would change. Also, we have at one count last year 26 guys traveling from or moved from the West. Guys can travel to the East coast and make some money. Why not fish west? Talking past tense, how many of our guys were traveling east a few years ago. Most years NONE. Our sport is changing everywhere but in the West. The eastern guys have FLW Tour, FLW Series, and BASS to fish for big bucks. We have NONE. Also, with these events that we don't have, comes some BIG dollars from sponsors and even out of the industry sponsors. Not many wrapped boats here. You can not travel knowing that unless you win you're probably going to lose money. It doesn't make sense. Remember, I said four 50th place finishes out of 6 events and you could profit $20000. How many fisherman profit 20K a year here now? Not many. Just for fun go down the prize money list for FLW last year. It will amaze the crap out of you. How many fishing shows are from here? How many fishermen here are making $50000 a year off sponsors from here? Maybe two. I have had many discussions with other anglers and am amazed (blown the hell away) at the money they make off sponsors. Some couldn't catch a cold much less a big bag of fish. They have the opportunity and we don't. Times are changing and we in the West are getting screwed unless we travel East. Also, one year I set down and figured miles driven and with our four events from the Columbia River to Lake Powell and our other two in the north state where I live, I drove more miles in our Western BASS Opens (4 events) than the guys fishing the Top 150 events (their main trail at the time) at BASS and they had 6 events. Pro fishing in the west is a joke when compared to the Southeast. They are national and us regional. BASS forgets we even exist. We have never been given a chance and probably never will. This is my WORLD RECORD long post. I type with one finger and I just wore it out.

Colebass · Post by **Colebass** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 10:16 am

YOUR right that is your longest post ever!

Were on the same page. But I think we can get it out here. We know this year is what it is, next is our negoiation year (2007) and 2008 should be the year something happens for us!

Here is what I think in short (i don't want to pull a Dobyns

), we should get a group of fishermen together from all over the west, forum a council and put some ideas down on paper, then present to FLW or (and don't shoot me) BASS, to bring a large (paying) trail. Unless anyone else locally wants to start one. We have the forum, the people, talent, now we need to be moving in some sense of unity. Now, I know when you get a group together, everyone will not agree, but we can work with that.

What does everyone else think?

And please, Korny, Mark Mendez, WONBASS and John Barron, don't take this personal. You all have given us great service and circuits that we fish. But if we want to make a living or some income, we need to get bigger. And their is nothing wrong dreaming, hoping and working towards that.

Ron C · Post by **Ron C** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 10:47 am

...and I really feel you frustration. The thought of making $20,000 by finishing 50th in four out of six FLW Series events is intoxicating. But I'm here to tell you that 99.9% of our Western pros will be thinking more about the $16,200 that they will have to lay out up front over the potential $20K (or more) that they might win.

You and I both know who that "core group" is, and we are both preaching to the choir to them about this. If the FLW Series comes out west, they will be "All In". But this group makes up no more than 20% of any professional tournament field out here in the west. It is the other 80% of the "part time" pros (including myself) who need to be convinced to come on board. Guys like me have kids to raise and put through college and hefty mortgages to pay. My situation will be changing in a couple of years when I retire from my "day jobâ€

NaCl · Post by **NaCl** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 10:58 am

You mentioned how much money guys make from sponsors back east. I don't believe big sponsor money is coming to the west any time soon. Back east, every other house has a fishing boat in the garage, one next to it, or one in the front yard beside the decaying refrigerator. Point is, sponsors back there get a lot of public attention when a successful fisherman promotes their items.

Out here, nobody in the general public gives a hoot about fishing successes. When is the last time you saw a Pro-Am winner announced on the evening news? Someone wins over $100,000 at Mead in the US Open...again, NO general press! So, sponsor dollars in the west ONLY target a tiny market of dedicated fishermen....virtually no value for a non-industry sponsor.

The second issue (as pointed out in a different post) is the cost of living differential. I recently traveled to Dallas and Wichita. The average price for a home in Sacramento is around $450,000. If you bought your home ten years ago at $200,000, your payment is around $1,500/month. Utilities are expensive. So, the average guy or guy/wife needs to earn $40-50,000 per year before taxes just to break even. That's BEFORE paying any major fishing expenses. This all adds up to needing a full time job to survive. And, a full time job usually provides no more than 4 weeks a year of paid vacation...that's not enough prefish time to risk over $10,000 on tournament entry fees PLUS another $5,000 in travel and prefishing costs.

Now, back to my travels....a beautiful NEW 2000 square foot home in Wichita costs less than $120,000. In Dallas, you can buy the same home for $180,000. If the typical western guy mentioned above moves from the west to Dallas, his equity from his home out here allows him to own a home free and clear! He also has $50-100,000 in the bank generating income. If he can get his wife to work, he can easily fish "full time". If she won't cooperate, he still can get by with some guiding and a few sponsorships from companies that can benefit from his reputation.

My point is, the economic realities of living back east are nowhere near the same as in the west.

That brings me back to the Stren Series. Full fields in all four events! That's progress. So, how do we go from full fields at $750 entry to full fields at $2700 per event? I believe the BFL will help accomplish that! It will encourage more anglers to step up their level of competition. In effect, it will help to expand the pool of aspiring competitive anglers. Over time, many of these BFL guys will move up to the Stren level. What would happen if the Stren series had a 200 pro waiting list? Yep! As the base grows, more and more guys will be willing to step up from the Stren level to the tour events at $2,700 entry.

So, I believe all things come from the base. As the base grows, sponsor dollars grow. As the base grows, the pool of anglers who CAN afford the high entry fees will grow. As the base grows, public interest in the sport will grow. BFL is all about growing the base. But, it is also the quickest way to a high dollar Western Tour circuit.

Just my opinion.

.....NaCl

ps Love reading your posts. I'll buy a box of bandaids for your sore finger so you don't have anymore to whine about! HaHa!

Ron C · Post by **Ron C** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 11:07 am

...just as you always do.

NaCl · Post by **NaCl** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 11:09 am

I'd love to see California break into four states. North California. South California. East California. Coastal California (this one would include San Francisco and Hollywood! HaHa!)

Then, we'd feel like we were really traveling a lot when we crossed two or three states to fish!

.....NaCl

scott h · Post by **scott h** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 12:15 pm

I would fish them, When I started tournament fishing the bfl's left the west coast so there is some lingering curiosity! I would like to see the west be a factor in major bass tournaments so hopefully the stren series continues to fill their quota to ensure that we on the west coast still have a way to make it to big time!

Gary Dobyns · Post by **Gary Dobyns** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 12:47 pm

You guys want to talk about house payments and continue to lose about a $1000 to $1500 per event (entry fees, gas, rooms, and the always needed tackle someone else is catching them on). For every 25th place finish you get NO dollars. But I see plenty of $50000 dollar boats and $45000 trucks pulling them with $10000 worth of tackle. The next time you call yourself a Pro think about it. Most of us are pros at losing money. Also, you think when tournaments started in the East and then Central divisions they had full fields over night. Wrong. The cost of living is higher in the west but so are the incomes. Did anyone look at FLW's list of finishers and what they made? Yes, look all the way down to 150th place. I'm done preaching.

Rich hamilton · Post by **Rich hamilton** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 5:06 pm

You been cruising my neighborhood again when I am at work Dean? I was wondering why the bride finally was smiling!

Cooch · Post by **Cooch** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 5:31 pm

I infact agree with you completely. Besides my great love for the out doors and fishing, I'm in fishing to make money. 7 years fishing Pro events, all them 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 10, 15th place finishes, I broke even and made a positive income 1 year, the year I won the boat at Oroville, and I still had to take a $12K loss on that certificate I won. So I quite three years ago, cuz I was smart enough to see the turmoil coming, more importantly, I was loosing money, even if I , "thought I was winning," because of success. I posted right here on this Forum forwarning of the coming transitions and I was gonna step away until it all got sorted out and began to make a turn in the direction that we should be afforded. Just like the rest of our bretheren in the east and South now enjoy. No reason we should be left out.

Personally, I think there are probably a whole lot more guys out west who would follow that same path you spoke of, that just aren't gonna voice that opinion here. And although I do agree with many things that Ron C wrote about too, I believe the numbers they think might not be there, are indeed higher, and would support an event/series like this. Although, I also believe, as long as we have as many options as we have today, from the one day Pro-Ams, the multiple shared weights, the BFLs, Opens and Stren like series all at our disposal, there will always be too damn many options fer every one to pick from.

Do away with all those other events, there's no doubt in my mind the west could fill and support a circuit like what you mentioned. If we are not fishing any other events, the money we would normally be putting into those events, and guys do spend a hell of a lot more money than they realize or care to believe, they'd be spending about the same and have a far greater potential on their return and investment of a circuit of this nature. God, I wished I was single, born and raised in the south, it would truly be a no brainer.

Unfortunately, I think this is still a long time coming. Until then, I'm stickin to my plan and will make my money fishin, in other venues besides Tournaments. Three consecutive years away from fishing tournaments, I've made more money than any single year I chased tournaments. It AIN'T rocket science MEN!

Yer not alone Big Guy!

Colebass · Post by **Colebass** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 5:36 pm

I know were joking, but that is kinda my point. Daveu Hite lies in South Carolina and Travels to North carolina to fish a big event. It's a longer drive for you or I to drive to Shasta!

My other arguement is the best fisheries are in the North, you can't blame an org for putting the events there! How many events on average are fished in Alabama between BASS and FLW. Each has at least one per year on average.

Great thread, thanks for participating!

Mick Karshner · Post by **Mick Karshner** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 5:45 pm

What everyone just said is exactly why my wife and I are flying to Guntersville Alabama next Saturday to spend a couple of days looking at property with a real estate agent. We can leave California, pay cash for a 3500 square foot home on Guntersville and be less than a 10 hour drive from every FLW Tour event except Champlain. FLW has created a circuit where we can truly earn a living fishing by them paying 10 grand down to 50th place. We are so out of here!

Mick Karshner

Colebass · Post by **Colebass** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 5:46 pm

I think this has been great dialog. There has also been some great points. I don't even think we all disagree, some are real sure an FLW Series type could make it out west and some are saying maybe. But nobody said NO, it won't work.

I do side with Dean on this and I think with some vision, you know that. So the BFL's would bring more folks into the sport as individuals, instead of teams. And some team guys, might want to make to try things on there own. Then the folks Ron C talked about mid 30's early 40's and some kids at home, could afford these events much easier. If they had success, they could step up to the next level.

Cooch has a point about not posting their opinions or comments, but I wish they would! It would let those organizations here from us about what we want. Maybe someone else, besides FLW thinks they can bring on these big events. Folks this is a great place to let them here it, loud and proud!

I'm out!

Colebass · Post by **Colebass** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 5:52 pm

We'll be watching, go knock'em dead! It's a great area, you'll love it!

Don't forget about us little people

. Because, we need a place to stay or some help on a lake!

Colebass · Post by **Colebass** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 5:53 pm

Mick Karshner · Post by **Mick Karshner** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 5:59 pm

Thanks Man. All you California guys will have a new Alabama connection. Just a phone call or email away.

Hollywood · Post by **Hollywood** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 6:45 pm

Ive supported them in the past when they were Red Man and BFL and when I get back to the states, if they are on the west coast. I would support them.

The one thing I did not like was the 80boat field. There is a lot of travel and expenses involved with very little prize money. However with full fields the prize money will be great.

Kevin Johnson

Rich hamilton · Post by **Rich hamilton** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 8:47 pm

Good luck with the search I really admire you for chasing your dream! Sounds like your wife is the best keeper you ever caught. I will be your west coast fan club! RR

sTony · Post by **sTony** » Sun Jan 15, 2006 7:34 am

I only have a moment to comment but I think nearly everyone has entirely missed the main point of why it's impossible to make a living at fishing in the current setup. It's the lack of true sponsorship. Right now, even in the bigger events, we're all fishing for the other guys money. There is no tour out there where sponsor dollars are a part of the payback. Check out what the entry fees are for the PGA Tour events and you'll see that they are indeed a high mulitple of the entry fees paid in by participants. As a result the guy ends up dead last in a PGA Tour event is still capable of making a living doing it. When we get a tour that has all 200 participants able to make a living competing then you'll see everyone jump in no holds barred if they can qualify to fish the events. In Gary's scenario there are still 150 potential guys that are losing $12K+ to compete. That will not give you a tour with longevity at all. The key is to make a qualifying tour where sponsor dollars are matching or beating the dollars coming in from particpants. Right now all sponsor deals are sucked away by the tour events that then take a percentage of the competitors fees. It's a system that is built around the ego's of bass anglers that could care less if they make any money doing what they do.

Just my thoughts. Also, the lack of general media coverage on our events is because no one really has made a push to gain that coverage. Most orgs in the west don't bother to send press releases out to even guys like me that'll cover them readily yet alone the news agencies that would need some smoothing over to get proper attention.

Most pro level tournaments in the west garner very little fan base support as well and that is indeed another part of the problem. Some BASS events have had good turnouts at weigh ins and the like but how many fans turn out for weigh ins at AC or WON BASS pro am weigh ins? Not many and there are little facilities available should a crowd turn out. To my mind this is a big area that needs work to gain potential out of the box sponsor dollars.

Just my two cents. Surely wish I could fish higher level events but raising a family, paying a mortgage, making a living and putting an importance on family relationships preclude me from jumping into events where I still have a better then even chance at losing five figures a year.

See you all at ISE and Fred Hall shows in the near future!

sTony

Gary Dobyns · Post by **Gary Dobyns** » Sun Jan 15, 2006 11:26 am

Tony how can 150 guys lose 12K? Are you saying the same 50 guys are always going to make the money? I don't get this.

Colebass · Post by **Colebass** » Sun Jan 15, 2006 11:42 am

Tony,

Some of your points are valid and I've thought about them myself, to many times. There are some soluations, that I'm not ready to share yet. In fact some may include you and this web-site

. We'll talk about that later.

But the two points I think would make against your post are this. 1) People have been saying for 30 years that Tournament bass fishing was not sustainable. 2) 150 will not loss 12K each. because the same 50 folks will not be in the money. To many tournaments show this is not possible.

I would say at his point, I'm an average fishermen. But I still believe I can place in the top 50 a couple times (2-3 or more) in a six tour season. With some good finishes, I would go after some non-fishing related sponsors. And there are folks on this web-site that are much better fishermen than me, so I've got to believe that they think it too!

Thanks Tony for your comments and ideas.

Colebass · Post by **Colebass** » Sun Jan 15, 2006 11:47 am

1275 people have viewed this post, yet less than 50 have taken the poll. Why?

The poll, takes nothing but a vote. I can see not making a comments post, but let's take the poll. This information is not only valuable to FLW Outdoors, and I have NO affiliation except that I'm a member, but folks like 100% BASS, AC, NBW and WONBASS can all use this information to add or improve their offerings to us. Isn't that all we want?

sTony · Post by **sTony** » Sun Jan 15, 2006 4:24 pm

I'd be willing to bet that nearly 1/3 of your 200 pros never sniff the top 50, maybe slightly less and maybe slightly more. Dee said it best yesterday, echoing a fishing sentiment, 10% of the anglers catch 90% of the fish. How many guys do you figure can afford to keep shelling out 5 figures a year to support the ones that finish in the top 50 to continue competing? How many guys are waiting in line to be in that group that regularly finish out of the top 25% of the field. Sooner or later you run out of folks that are willing to donate that type of money to feed the top pool.

I look at enough tournament results to know that the top wage earners are regularly doing well and that given a 200 boat field, there'd be a regular pool of anglers that simply wouldn't make it and likely be forced out relatively quickly.

The big problem, and I noticed to no one was willing to address it, is that the major sponsors get off without really stepping up to the plate and supporting this part of the industry. Most already know that there is no such thing as a free boat and motor, that tournaments are paying something for these prize boats and motors. When a tournament tour gets put together that has money in the pot that comes largely from sponsors and in addition to a portion of the entry fees, then well have something to talk about. As of this writing pro anglers are all fishing for a limited portion of their own entry fee dollars. In order to make an attractive payback they have to charge particpants more to compete. If sponsor dollars were going into the payback you'd see a better way for participants to actually make a dollar and a livelihood.

Like I said before, if the guy at the back of the pack was making a buck to compete then you'd be on to something and it would be sustainable. What you're looking for has a big chunk of your field and maybe better dropping off each year becasue the costs to compete would still not make it worth it to do so.

Course maybe I'm wrong cause as it stands now a lots of guys are willing to throw out good money to compete, do well and still not make any money doing it.

Most of the higher dollar sponsors don't contribute nearly as much as they should be asked for and competitive anglers have been all to eager to foot the bill to create their own playground. New boats are going for upwards of 40-50K each in the current marketplace. In a 200 boat field of boats that average cost is $40k that represents 8 million dollars spent on boats alone. Now add in that each boater needs something to tow that boat with. Both Boat and tow vehicle need dollars to make them move and dollars to maintain as well. Anglers need stuff to fish from that boat in the way of tackle. The dollars going out are huge. Start figuring out what the ordinary team anglers spend in a year to compete and club anglers and then take into account other recreational anglers and you'll see why I figure sponsor dollars ought to factor in somewhere along the line but they obviously don't figure in to paybacks at all. And to date anglers have tolerated it and and sponsored guys really tolerate it as they're off spending a good portion of time further pushing their sponsors mostly for nothing or close to it.

Ask some of the guys that have won high profile events and are regularly in the check line and have qualified to fish the Elite series that are still out there looking for a way to pay their way into the events.

Man I do love to debate with you guys. Course its hard to debate with Gary as he's regularly in and figures to be regularly in the line for checks. It's the fringe players that currently make up a huge portion of the payback that would still have a struggle on their hands.

sTony

NaCl · Post by **NaCl** » Sun Jan 15, 2006 6:16 pm

Gary,

I'd love to believe the west is ready for a big national tour level circuit. And, I may be wrong in my feelings that there are not enough western anglers able to spend $2700 per event...I actually hope I AM wrong! The only way we'll know for sure is if we get enough interested anglers to sign a petition to submit to FLW. I'm even willing to organize the drive if you want me to.

My building-the-base approach (by endorsing the BFL) is a long term, "grow the sport" theme. Its NOT "right" or "wrong". Its just another way to achieve the ultimate goal. And, it might be accomplished if the FLW signs up the Federation. All of a sudden, FLW will have a big grass roots organization. If this comes to pass, we might not need the BFL to provide a feeder route into the bigger events.

I also agree with you about the higher wages out here. I guess all things are relative. Funny you mention about the cost of bass fishing equipment, I've always found it funny that guys will buy a $30-40,000 boat, $10,000 of rods/reels, pay $400 in fuel and entry fees to fish a team event....and then they complain about paying $6.00 for a bag of Senkos!

Do you think we could get 100 Letters-of-Intent for guys to fish a big FLW circuit out here? If so, I'll draft the letter for people to sign and we can approach FLW. Let me know.

.....NaCl

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 9:57 am

I agree with NaCl that a strong and large base of tournament anglers is critical to a sponsor-funded pro circuit, and although I would love to see this out west, I do not believe it is likely to ever happen. The limiting factor to grow this base is the lack of tournament-friendly lakes and reservoirs out west. Bass fishing is growing out west in popularity, but at a snail's pace compared to the level of popularity where pro circuits currently exist.

sTony is right-on about the lack of publicity out west, but it isn't without reason. Without a large base of bass anglers, what media can sell bass fishing to improve their marketing power? Frankly the general population out west could care less about bass fishing, so it doesn't sell to the general population. In the south, everyone either bass fishes or knows someone who does, so they care. Out west we have too many other recreational opportunities that compete for the base.

And I agree with Cooch; I have yet to meet a tournament angler with the right business plan to make strictly tourney fishing allow them to achieve financial independence. Instead, to be successful as a pro angler in the west you had better understand marketing, and you had better be in other ventures that produce reliable income. I don't want to rain on anyone's parade who lives in the west and aspires to make their fortune and fame as a pro bass angler, but if you are serious then you should consider making the move east.

If my dream was to make my living fishing tournaments, I would move to Georgia or Alabama; maybe Texas. If I wanted to do this AND raise a family, I would move and marry the beautiful daughter of a successful pro angler. I just don't see it happening out west.

On the other hand, one can make a living fishing for bass in the west by being creative in working other parts of the bass fishing industry, and in fishing more local tourneys. I appreciate the local circuits we have that allow me to still compete and make a few bucks without risking large travel budgets.

Gary, having said all of that, I would seriously consider ponying up the big bucks and competing in a larger circuit (as soon as my daughter finishes non-resident university tuition in California). I like my chances, and I can afford the circuit even if it isn't a smart business decision for most. I would like to see it happen out here, but I'm not holding my breath. In the meantime, there are other ways to play the bass game out west.

Mick Karshner · Post by **Mick Karshner** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 12:06 pm

Boy you have got that right Rich! My wife is definately the best "keeper" I have ever caught. She is my #1 fan and supporter. Without a supportive wife I would of never even attempted this venture. The 3 things you need to do this are time, money and a supportive wife. If you have those 3, go for it! That way you don't spend the rest of your life wondering, "what if" ? Thanks for the support Man!

mark poulson · Post by **mark poulson** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 3:47 pm

I'm not a tournament fisherman, so I can't comment on the ins and outs of the different tours, and how to structure something out here so it will work.
But as an interested bystander, who bumps into tounament guys a lot when I fun fish, and who actually knows a lot of the local guys down here who tournament fish through my club, I think I have a different take on this whole deal.
California, and, by extension, the whole west coast, is fragmented by geography. Lots of distance, lots of different areas. And it's full of independent people, who have strong opinions and wills.
I think it would take a strong personality, like a Ray Scott, to pull all of the different independent tournament trails into a "federation" with a governing body and similar rules and regs., and a local elimination structure leading to a state or regional championship, to make something out here work. The eastern model works there, but it isn't the west. The west developed all these different independent tours because the east stayed away. And all those tours and their owners, directors, and participants would have to be brought into an umbrella organization without being penalized or losing what they've worked so hard to build.
I have heard that, in the past, there was a West Coast Bass organization that was somewhat along those lines. But it didn't work out then. Maybe the time wasn't right.
I would use the analogy of England and the colonies.
If BASS and FLW are England, the diffeent regions and tours inCalif. are the colonies . A bunch of independent S.O.B.s who grew out of indifference from the east, and now are self sufficient. And who don't want to be dictated to by the same organization that ignored them for so long.
If the Calif. colonies unite under one flag, then they can develop a successful west coast tournament series. And if it is successful, the sponsors will come. That's how BASS got started, and that's how any successful startup company gets started.
I think the key is to keep it modest and affordable to begin with, until it's success draws in the kind of money to make it bigger and better. Betting on BASS or FLW to come out here and change their already in place, successful business plan is a mistake. At least to me.

Western BFL Question

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