40% of fish die from 58', no matter what you do...

Otay Michael · Post by **Otay Michael** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 9:50 am

Great short article by George Kramer, asking the tough quetions:
http://kramergonefishing.com/2011/02/24 ... more-12409

Is it time to 'evolve'?

TeamBeefmaster · Post by **TeamBeefmaster** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:56 am

2 of my fish from piru yesterday in 40 ft died... fizzed and everything... one was within 5 minutes and the other was towards the end of the day. the one that died immediately had an eye that popped out and everything... sucks

nipples · Post by **nipples** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:48 pm

Poorly written article...

"From the California data, count on 40 percent mortality from fish brought up from 58 feet–regardless of what gallant steps you might take. And if you factor in the use of needles, according to the fisheries people in Arizona, expect “20% mortality associated with puncturing the swimbladder.”"

No matter what you do (unless you use a needle)? And the links to the supporting articles didn't support the claim...

I fizz anything I catch below 15 feet "IF" it floats in the livewell (I'm not going to pop a fish unless I have to). I also use a product called catch and release (calms them and protects them, replenishes the slime coat, makes them healthy and happy), and I give my fish plenty of fresh water throughout the day as well as run bubbles. I always get comments on how lively my fish are from the weighmasters at tourneys. I hate killing a bass and I do everything I can to make sure I don't. Occasionally I deep hook a bass and it bleeds and dies. It sucks, but it happens. I didn't read anything in the article nor links about deep hooked fish. And I also wondered why they held them in floating pins (those fish would have gone deep when released if they were not held captive in floating pins). And how much did the floating cages stress the fish? And one more thing... I don't know anyone who catches them from 58+ in the delta regardless of what time of year it is. The delta is not a lake, it is a river delta, it doesn't have a lake like thermocline, it's moving water (granted there are a few flooded islands that sometimes act like a lake, but they are all shallow).

I do agree that more fishermen need to learn how to take care of their fish, but I wouldn't go so far as to say 40% from 58+ die.

I appreciate you sharing Michael, but I just don't like the article... It smells fishy (pun intended)

roaroar · Post by **roaroar** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:07 pm

"From the California data, count on 40 percent mortality from fish brought up from 58 feet–regardless of what gallant steps you might take."

Not sure about this but I have yet to bass fish water in the California Delta that is 58 feet deep. Maybe they are talking about stripers or catfish. Maybe if your fishing in the Sacramento or Stockton deep water channel. If they caught enough Bass fish to do a study at this depth maybe I should change how I fish the Delta.

bassaddicted · Post by **bassaddicted** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 7:19 pm

Taking your time reeling in fish from those depths will stop the fish from bloating so much. When you reel a fish in too fast from those depths is what causes them their eyes to pop out and thats when you get the redness around the gills. No saving them when this happens. I used to ocean fish alot and this is where I figured this out. The slower you bring them up the better. I got tired of feeding the seagulls.

Oldschool · Post by **Oldschool** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 8:25 pm

2 atmospheres or 30 foot depth is safe if the bass was acclimated to that depth when hooked and brought to the surface. Add 1 more atmosphere and it's 45 feet depth, the pressure change being brought to the surface is approaching the point of no return . At 4 atmospheres or 60' (58' to be accurate) depths the bass may have reached it's fatal pressure change due to brain damage. Bass lose the ability to remember how to catch prey and they starve to death, along with all the other maladies. These are the dark color zombie bass or snakes (all head with skinny body) you see swimming around.
It doesn't matter how slow or fast you bring the bass to the surface in regards to pressure change, bass can't make faster pressure changes than about 15 feet per day and remain acclimated to the new depth. When you bring the bass up fast you see the results with the air bladder, not all the other factors.
Deep water bass fishing is relatively new or within the past 25 years. Before that time only a few bass anglers knew how to catch deep bass, back then it wasn't an issue.
I haven't bass fished deeper than 40 feet for over 30 years, however I don't tournament fish and that is a major factor without an easy answer with money on the line.
Tom

JamesH · Post by **JamesH** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 8:47 pm

Well Kramer likes to stir the pot and 40% is more of an attention getter than the less than 2% reported in the Arizona article the he himself provided a link too so it just another case of only using the facts that support your argument..... The more disturbing fact was that the Arizona F&G killed 98% of the summer time fish they held in pens due to their faulty process....

I'm all for having reasonable regulations to keep our fishing resources alive and healthy but why look for problems where there really isn't one?

James Huffmon

dockboy · Post by **dockboy** » Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:40 am

So my question is if we are talking how bass can't acclimate fast enough, how do we get fish in deep, clear canyon lakes like Mead or Shasta and places like the Great Lakes that come up from 40-50' of water to blast a topwater? You can motor over them and graph them on a ledge or island top or suspended at 40', and catch them from that same depth on top. Why would a fish rocket to the surface to eat a wounded bait if the process would harm them? Just a question, this topic got me thinking. Some fish you pull up from deep water and they are fine, or you can have like last weekend at Pine Flat where even fish from less than 30' need to be needled.

sTony · Post by **sTony** » Tue Mar 01, 2011 2:15 am

Is it just me or did GK write, "The California data...", Not Delta.

Talk to DFG and they'll tell you GK has his numbers correct.

I thought the article was well written as always and thought provoking as well. Two positives for anyone in George's occupation, er... or is that preoccupation.

sTony

mark poulson · Post by **mark poulson** » Tue Mar 01, 2011 5:26 am

JamesH wrote:Well Kramer likes to stir the pot and 40% is more of an attention getter than the less than 2% reported in the Arizona article the he himself provided a link too so it just another case of only using the facts that support your argument..... The more disturbing fact was that the Arizona F&G killed 98% of the summer time fish they held in pens due to their faulty process....

I'm all for having reasonable regulations to keep our fishing resources alive and healthy but why look for problems where there really isn't one?

James Huffmon

Maybe the answer is to deport the Arizona F&G.

Otay Michael · Post by **Otay Michael** » Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:43 pm

sTony wrote:Is it just me or did GK write, "The California data...", Not Delta.

Talk to DFG and they'll tell you GK has his numbers correct.

I thought the article was well written as always and thought provoking as well. Two positives for anyone in George's occupation, er... or is that preoccupation.

sTony

Thanks Tony, I was wondering what the heck they were talking about. I don't think anyone has to worry about the Delta and could not figure why they even brought it up. Or Clearlake for the most part. But a lot of lakes, from Don Pedro down to Diamond Valley have a lot of areas that are that deep, or deeper. The point was made a week or two ago that a very large number of bass were floating after a tourny at DVL, and I thought the article helped explain why, I know most of those guys probably fizz the fish, most of us like to keep the darn things alive so we can catch 'em again.

I also bet any fish hitting topwater did not come from 50 ro 60' down, even if you think it did, or metered them there. Most likely a suspended one in 20 or 30 you would not see. They can become real hard to see in many cases, even in clear water at 30'. Plus they come from the sides, where you would not see them either.

Otay Michael · Post by **Otay Michael** » Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:56 pm

nipples wrote:Poorly written article...

"From the California data, count on 40 percent mortality from fish brought up from 58 feet–regardless of what gallant steps you might take. And if you factor in the use of needles, according to the fisheries people in Arizona, expect “20% mortality associated with puncturing the swimbladder.”"

No matter what you do (unless you use a needle)? And the links to the supporting articles didn't support the claim...

I fizz anything I catch below 15 feet "IF" it floats in the livewell (I'm not going to pop a fish unless I have to). I also use a product called catch and release (calms them and protects them, replenishes the slime coat, makes them healthy and happy), and I give my fish plenty of fresh water throughout the day as well as run bubbles. I always get comments on how lively my fish are from the weighmasters at tourneys. I hate killing a bass and I do everything I can to make sure I don't. Occasionally I deep hook a bass and it bleeds and dies. It sucks, but it happens. I didn't read anything in the article nor links about deep hooked fish. And I also wondered why they held them in floating pins (those fish would have gone deep when released if they were not held captive in floating pins). And how much did the floating cages stress the fish? And one more thing... I don't know anyone who catches them from 58+ in the delta regardless of what time of year it is. The delta is not a lake, it is a river delta, it doesn't have a lake like thermocline, it's moving water (granted there are a few flooded islands that sometimes act like a lake, but they are all shallow).

I do agree that more fishermen need to learn how to take care of their fish, but I wouldn't go so far as to say 40% from 58+ die.

I appreciate you sharing Michael, but I just don't like the article... It smells fishy (pun intended)

________________

Kramer makes an interest point on 'wondering if the stats are right':

"...Unfortunately, in California, biologists don’t make fisheries policy–from crappie limits to rockfish stocks–political party appointees do most of that.

FYI, the ’83 California studies put black bass in a pressure tank, and adjusted conditions to the water pressure found at a depth of 18-plus meters (54 feet) and 40 percent of those fish succumbed. I recall speaking with one of the researchers and he said fish taken from deeper than 25 feet (meaning exposed to those conditions) all showed some kinds of internal damage. The Arizona fisheries work–pretty much the last six years from FLW, WON BASS and local events was pretty straight forward in my view. My stance is really a question: “If these things occur as described, shouldn’t we as anglers consider measures that might help survival?”

_________________

Someone else reported they get some sort of brain damage (look fine once you release them and don't float after a few mintues), not being able how to figure out how to eat properly, thus creating the giant head, small body syndrome you see some have!!?