What do you all think of this for Constitutional Rights ?

DeltaDan · Post by **DeltaDan** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 4:13 pm

Court rules game wardens don't violate Constitution by stopping hunters, fishermen.

Published: Tuesday, Jun. 21, 2011 - 12:00 am | Page 4A

People who fish and hunt in California have less protection of their privacy right under the U.S. Constitution, the state's Supreme Court ruled Monday.

A game warden may stop a person and demand to see what has been killed and taken even though the warden has no cause to suspect a law violation, a unanimous high court declared.

With respect to other potential lawbreakers, the Fourth Amendment requires probable cause for a stop.

All the warden needs, the court stated, is knowledge that the person is or has been fishing or hunting

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Full article here on this link ~~> http://www.sacbee.com/2011/06/21/371539 ... z1Q9Cpz0f3

bryanmc · Post by **bryanmc** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:10 pm

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Why would you have a problem with it? Their job is to enforce regulations. If they think you've been involved in the regulated activity, that should be enough to make sure you've complied with the regulations.

crawdaddy · Post by **crawdaddy** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:54 pm

Classic connundrum for me. I want DFG to bust the poachers (especially the tin boat crews that work the Delta) but I would also prefer there to be reasonable suspicion before they come ask me for a look/see. If I am fishing is that probable cause to ask for a fishing license? If so then you could be pulled over driving under the same premise. Either I willingly give up my rights to help bust poachers or I staunchly protect them and make it harder to bust them. Either way the law abiding amongst us gets screwed as usual. Great topic Dan. Makes ya think and that is also needed!

mark poulson · Post by **mark poulson** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:11 pm

bryanmc wrote:Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Why would you have a problem with it? Their job is to enforce regulations. If they think you've been involved in the regulated activity, that should be enough to make sure you've complied with the regulations.

I agree.

Whoopbass · Post by **Whoopbass** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:31 pm

crawdaddy wrote:Classic connundrum for me. I want DFG to bust the poachers (especially the tin boat crews that work the Delta) but I would also prefer there to be reasonable suspicion before they come ask me for a look/see. If I am fishing is that probable cause to ask for a fishing license? If so then you could be pulled over driving under the same premise. Either I willingly give up my rights to help bust poachers or I staunchly protect them and make it harder to bust them. Either way the law abiding amongst us gets screwed as usual. Great topic Dan. Makes ya think and that is also needed!

Couldn't have said it better.
I believe DFG has so many powers is because there is so few of them it kinda acts as a deterrence. Same with the sky high fines for breaking a fish/game violation.
Is a DFG fine like a speeding ticket? Speeding ticket lets say is $150 but once they get done adding all the b.s. it comes out closer to $400.

Marty · Post by **Marty** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:13 pm

Knowledge could be a cameo shirt, Range hat, a bumper sticker saying “I would rather fish then work”.
It is easy to give up your rights to protect what you like.
It gets harder when they only let you fish every other day!
You will be against it when they stop you completely from fishing to make sure we stop all poaching.

Andy Giannini · Post by **Andy Giannini** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:29 pm

I don't really see a problem with it.

And I consider myself a pretty serious "Constitutionalist", noting little erosions of our rights.

If the warden wants to see how many birds, fish, or whatever I have in my possession, its ok with me.

I would add that fishing or hunting is not a right. A license is a formal permission to do something with authorization by law subject to condition. A new license that states you are subject to search by any warden could be easily penned, and by accepting this license you accept all terms etc. That would pretty much cover the issue of search as the court has ruled on it.

.02

A.G.

tunaman · Post by **tunaman** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:39 pm

EDIT - OK, couldn't stand it any more, so I edited the title and removed my dig on you my Brotha!

Love ya like milk, Brotha Dan!!!

Good post though, although as mentioned I don't see it as a big issue. They are duly sworn officers, and have similar rights as other police forces. IMHO, I've never seen a DFG officer overstep their bounds, nor have I seen them be unreasonable pricks - most are just folks trying to enforce within reason and educate where they have to. I have, however, heard a few stories over the years, but there's always the exception to the rule.

Roger

Dom · Post by **Dom** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:57 pm

I agree with it , no problems here if the warden wants to check me out then I see no reason why he should not be able to. All I do is fish I am not a hunter my family is and I am cool with it I just dont see the sport in killing game unless its for food, NO I AM NO TREE HUGGER more power to the hunters. I have done it even grew up with it , just not my thing. So if the warden wants to check my catch no problem cuase I dont eat fish either ( Yea I know wierd, I hate all sea food) I am strictly catch and release

bassz21 · Post by **bassz21** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 10:19 pm

You should not be doing anything illegal anyways plain and simple same as dom catch and release i.dnt like fish either

DanIsaac · Post by **DanIsaac** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 10:34 pm

Have no problem with that at all. I'd actually prefer even more REAL oversight.

Dan

mark poulson · Post by **mark poulson** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:29 am

I hope they start with the rental boat navy that rapes Castaic, ferrying load after load of shore anglers out to every point with multiple poles and ice chests, and keeping anything they catch.
Those people need to be regulated.

Ringer · Post by **Ringer** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 6:56 am

Nothing sneakier than a low down poacher. In most states there is no right to fish and hunt. It is legally a privelege. I have always been stopped by G&F during hunts and on the water so I don't see this as a threat to my rights under the constitution.

drew · Post by **drew** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 7:09 am

What do you all think of this for Constitutional Rights ?

I think soon we will have none regardless of the activity we are engaging.

kane-o · Post by **kane-o** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 7:17 am

mark poulson wrote:I hope they start with the rental boat navy that rapes Castaic, ferrying load after load of shore anglers out to every point with multiple poles and ice chests, and keeping anything they catch.
Those people need to be regulated.

mark i TOTALLY AGREE about castaic. but the sheriffs have plenty of time to cruise the parking lot and give tickets, instead of getting in the boat and stop all the poachers... they even walk in at night... i have been the first boat to launch and i see guys all along the shore even as far back as dry gulch, and like you said they all have 5 rods and keep EVERYTHING THEY KEEP.... the smallies are starting to thrive now, and i would hate to have these meat eaters start taking them home too.. dfg is a totally different animal, im all for them boarding my boat anytime.... as long as your legal, you should not have to worry..

eric n · Post by **eric n** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 10:14 am

Always amazed me that the f&g can pull you over and search your car without P.C.How is that not a violation of the 4th ammnd?Because he said you were fishing?Come on.Fishing isnt a right?Neither is driving.Neither is owning your house and property,[try not paying your property taxes].Example.....
I am a commercial fisherman,we fish at night and the f&g knows it.As a matter of fact,alot of us are on a 1st name basis.Then why do they pound,yes,pound with their fists on the side of the boat at 8am, waking us to check on our paperwork?Why not when we are awake?Is it not in their computer?Did it expire since i was checked the previous month?no.
Ok,how about the dreaded''do you have any weapons?''Yes sir,i have a legal xxxx.Holsters get unclipped,you are forced to stay outside while they check your firearm and act extremely nervous,AND search your belongings.
I see it as the police pounding on my door at 3am,conducting a search without p.c. or my permission all the while an officer is ready to draw.All this while wiping sleep from my eyes trying to figure out what the hell is going on.HELL YES THEY ARE VIOLATING MY 4TH AMMENDMENT.O yeah i havent had a ticket in dozens of boardings

bassinbillmc · Post by **bassinbillmc** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:10 pm

I too do not have a problem with this. We need more DFG enforcement but will not get it due to the on-going budget crisis. My buddy and I were checked last year. The warden was professional and polite, and we thanked him for taking care of the Delta.

For the aforementioned $150 speeding ticket turning into a $400 ticket, that is also due to the state (started even before the current budget crisis). For every $10 of the base fine, the state tacks on $17 in additional penalties. So your $150 fine would now have an additional $255 added. Add the mandatory one dollar night court fee to it, and your original fine of $150 now adds up to $406.

Looking forward to being on the Delta this Wednesday.

Bill

DeltaDan · Post by **DeltaDan** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:27 pm

BrothA RodgeR = I Love you more than a Brian D Turdunken with Mrs. Tuna's cooking at the Tunamans house BrothA !! (and way more than thatas always as well ) I appologise for my gramitical errors.

Like eric - I most all of the times keep a loaded firearm near-by. I also take out people at time who themselves partake in the green stuff. There have only been three people that sparked some up for their own enjoyment while with me ... They asked before they lit it up - But I had no prior knowage that they even had in on them.

But what if we get pulled over and he places his pipe from his pocket into my glovebox, gets discovered for "No Practical Purpose" - and if that person does not come clean claiming ownership = I am then on the hook for it being in my possesion.

Not saying I agree, disagree.... I just believe that there needs to be probable cause for search and seizure outside of the extenuating circumstances - and all for the LEO to of had "personal knowlage" for the right to board AND SEARCH.

Unlike the Coastguard- I can show them in my lockers the papers for registration/insurance in one, the throwable devices and spare lifevest in another locker, my air horn and whistle, bow and stearn lights in another and a paddle in the last locker leaving for me with 4 lockers for them never to have any reason to open.

But if they try to site me for possession - and my Bro does not cop to it - I could be on the hook for it - and that blows ! I do not partake and get drug tested all the time for my employer.

Even if I paid for a self drugtest the next day to prove there was nothing in myself- I just may be on the lamb for having a loaded gun in my posession for self defence..... Of what would be true.

So that are my personal views on this matter- Other than I hope the DFG can catch and prosecute more and more poachers who are raping our natural livestock and resources by illegal take, chemical dumping ...and so forth and so forth......

Dom · Post by **Dom** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 8:54 pm

DeltaDan hey bro , my understanding on the fire arm becuase I to am always packing, is that as long as the fire arm is registered in your name you can keep the gun in the glove box of the boat as long as your glove box has a lock on it and you can keep the mag in another compartment. At least I hope this is right? I keep my 9mm in a baggie in my boat and the clip in my other locker. If need be I can grab the gun and clip and chamber a round in 30 sec to a minute

Maybe Gene (from the hook) can chime in here he sells fire arms, purchased my 9mm from him.

eric n · Post by **eric n** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 9:30 pm

After reading that article it sounded as if the warden was watching the defendent.The warden did not see him breaking any law,did not suspect him of breaking the law yet pulled him over and searched him. Really?Wow.What was it a hunch?I know there has to be more to it,I wish the sac bee would have referenced the case doc #
Thanks for the post,one of my fellow fisherman is an attorney and I argue about this all the time with him.Yep,implied consent.Wish i didnt have to consent.

Andy Giannini · Post by **Andy Giannini** » Sat Jun 25, 2011 4:37 am

This string has degraded into "How not to get your azz kicked by the Police" by Chris Rock.

"If you have a crazy friend, before you give him a ride does he have any drugs? Any weapons? Any warrants out for his arrest?"

I would add the video from You tube, but I am not that hot with computer links etc.

mrobinett · Post by **mrobinett** » Sat Jun 25, 2011 5:22 am

This thread has taken a turn. I have never once even come close to feel the need to have a gun on my boat for a day of bass fishing. Where are you guys fishing? Columbia? Mexico? Or is it just a macho thing to do to brag about? I own a number of guns and am prepared to use them if needed so I'm not anti gun. I also don't understand having a concern about a friend bringing pot on board for a day of fishing and then being concerned that if your caught, it could be all on the boat owner? Dan, I commend you for understanding that, but why take a chance? It could apparently put your job/livelyhood in jeopardy. All so a friend could smoke joint? This is just my opinion.

eric n · Post by **eric n** » Sat Jun 25, 2011 7:31 am

Your fishing in the wrong places

We like to throw skeet when we get offshore,thats why we have guns.
I just dont think its right that the f&g has powers above and beyond any other law enforcement agency.Most people have few interactions with them so its not a big deal as long as it bags a couple of poachers.Thats great,i hate poachers and lawbreakers as well,but to give them cart blanche to search you without cause makes you a criminal until the search is done.Wonder when the statute ends of your morning fishing trip?
Alright,off my soap box.Going to put my tinfoil hat on and go fishing.Good day all

Dom · Post by **Dom** » Sat Jun 25, 2011 10:26 am

Well I fish the river and its not a mocho thing with me Im 6" 270lbs I can be pretty moncho without a gun LOL But you never know when the need may arise to need a firearm I have been fishing in Whisky salogh and have had threats of the people going to get a gun becuase they hate us fishing "there" water, I had no fire arm on me then. And what if this drugged out crazy really did go get a gun (I did not stay around to find out) at least Im gonna be prepared if there is a next time .

I have had friends shot at while fishing the river, ask Jeremy I think he was even shot at years ago , and besides its my right to bare arms, sorry that mocho comment just rubbed me raw, its not a mocho thing Im from the south I was raised around guns my whole life and the number one rule is Never pull a gun on anyone unless your gonna pull the trigger so you can bet Im not one of the young punk kids who wave a gun around to be MOCHO if I am "FORCED" to pull it on anyone they can kiss thier *** good bye.

This thread was not hijacked its about the power of DFG some feel as mentioned above becuase he acts on his right to bare arms and the DFG messes with him for no reason they make him feel like a criminal for just acting on his right to bare arms. They feel DFG needs PC to search plain and simple

Now as for the WEED thing yall can all relaxes it will be legal before long

( and no I am not a toker)

Kevin Evans - Kap · Post by **Kevin Evans - Kap** » Sat Jun 25, 2011 12:55 pm

Dom wrote:I agree with it , no problems here if the warden wants to check me out then I see no reason why he should not be able to. All I do is fish I am not a hunter my family is and I am cool with it I just dont see the sport in killing game unless its for food, NO I AM NO TREE HUGGER more power to the hunters. I have done it even grew up with it , just not my thing. So if the warden wants to check my catch no problem cuase I dont eat fish either ( Yea I know wierd, I hate all sea food) I am strictly catch and release

and that pretty much sums it up for me too.....except for the not eat fish part, har har

Kap

mrobinett · Post by **mrobinett** » Sat Jun 25, 2011 7:00 pm

Dom, no disrespect was intended. I guess I could have worded it better, but my first thought was some guys just threw guns on their boat and bragged about it. I've never been to the Delta, so maybe there is a different take on things in some of those back sloughs. As for the "joint" comment, Ive been told they are not called that anymore. I guess I'm showing my age. Or having flashbacks.

Old dog · Post by **Old dog** » Sun Jun 26, 2011 7:18 am

I have been a duck hunter and bass fisherman both for over 40 years and I feel the wardens have a terribly tough job. By purchasing a license to do something we do give up some rights. We agree to abide by the rules & regs. of the government bodies that oversee those rules and regulations. I have no trouble with them doing there job in this manner, most of the time it's the only way they can catch a poacher. One thing we found out about 25 years ago. Any place where you store your birds, not sure about fish, be it your "duck shack" or home, game wardens can enter without a search warrant, under the same broad powers act.

Turkeyman · Post by **Turkeyman** » Sun Jun 26, 2011 12:59 pm

If your not doing anything wrong, then why worry about it? Everytime I have been searched by a warden they have asked to check(unless it was a federal warden, the first line of thier job description says they need to be a PRICK), I've never said no to them, so I don't know if they would be pricks then, or go about thier business. I had one warden once who was aggressive with us at first, then after I told him if he waded out any furter he would go over his boots, (and he did fill up one boot with water) I got my boat and ferried him across he was reading us the riot act about tresspassing and such. I asked him to show me where there was 3 signs per mile that indicated that the property was posted and that we accessed it by boat along a navigable waterway, he then backed off and thanked us and told us to enjoy our day. (He also asked for a ride back across the slough.)

Dom · Post by **Dom** » Sun Jun 26, 2011 1:28 pm

Its cool, I just felt that post was directed at me, and I know I sometimes can sound like a !@#$ online, its just in fun. Im one of the niecest guys you'll ever meet. Do I talk alot? Yea I do I can run off at the head but gotta understand I drive a truck for a living, so im alone all day LMAO . No worries I understand what your talking about things are different today everyones scared of a butt woopin, they reather pull a gun then fight it out LOL

I ve met some people over the years mostly younger, but they run thier mouths becuase they have that gun, without that gun making em feel "MACHO" they would never run thier mouths like that LMAO. I fish alot these days with my wife and son and stay pretty much to the river so I keep mine just for protection nothing more. I just got a PM from a super cool dude telling me about some of the gun laws in CA and I apprecieate the PM I learned somthing in my favor as a gun owner

And honestly after thinking about it somemore I guess you cant blame DFG if thay ask if I have a fire arm on me and I say yes they dont know me they dont know if I am setting them up to pull another gun on me or if im wanted or running drugs, etc... So I guess I get it when they put thier hand on thier fire arm and treat me like a criminal (not that this has happen to me just refferencing the post above. They hae families to go home to also so they have to be cautious. So my final answer is NO I have no problem with DFG boarding ,searching, and being cautious while they search me and my vessel . The best thing I can do is give them all the info they want and sit still with my hands in plain sight till they are done. tell em to have a great day and get on with my fishing.

tunaman · Post by **tunaman** » Sun Jun 26, 2011 9:40 pm

Since I'm in the mood for fixing ****, it is MACHO, not MOCHO my friend! I fixed it for you!!!

Hope you can make it for the Happy Hour, Nutcase, and Pro Teen Dom as I'd love to get to meet you finally! Come out and play brotha!!!

Sorry for the anal-retentive behavior... can't help it!

Roger

Dom · Post by **Dom** » Sun Jun 26, 2011 11:34 pm

Thanks Tunaman!!!! Sorry for the spelling lol I really can spell but I get going on this key board and loose all thought process lol. I should double check my post before I hit the submit button but I dont lol .

And trust me I want to come out and play and as soon as I get my boat back, which should be this week for sure. Lyle says if we cant get this Rude figured out he is throwing on a Johnson outboard on

I really want to make the nutcase and the pro teen but have not signed up because I dont know my boat situation yet. I would hate to say ill be their and have to stand yall up. I got my fingers crossed I get my boat back this week.

Tight Lines Dom

tunaman · Post by **tunaman** » Sun Jun 26, 2011 11:48 pm

Well, wether you're available as a boater or non-boat, you're welcome either way! Be sure to come out and socialize, climb on the back deck if need be, and help Coochie out with the land logistics if necessary! It is going to be a great weekend either way, and there's plenty of opportunity whichever side you end up on!

Roger

eric n · Post by **eric n** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:45 pm

So if its fine for a warden,why isnt it fine for a leo?Why not let leo's search your belongings anytime they want to.Pull you over,enter your house.Afterall,you are doing nothing wrong and its only a few minutes of your time.

Dom · Post by **Dom** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:49 pm

Becuase "LEO" means LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER LMAO

PF3352 · Post by **PF3352** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:51 pm

"LEO" = Law Enforcement Officer

tunaman · Post by **tunaman** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:18 pm

Canadian's!

We call 'em COPS, PIGS, CHiPpers, etc... all with due respect!

They all have a tough job to do. Cops have a right to reasonable search and seizure, and so should the DFG. If they believe you are involved with hunting or fishing, they should have the rights to check your credentials if they suspect something amiss. We really need this enforcement, unfortunately, as there are many who don't comply with the nature, or specifics, of the laws.

Sad but true... like it or not, that is the current state of the Union.

I myself have nothing to hide, and always strive to do the right thing. Hopefully all of you do as well.

Roger

Andy Giannini · Post by **Andy Giannini** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:16 am

I think people confuse "probable cause" with absolute proof that a crime has been committed.

Probable cause for search is "a reasonable belief that a person has committed a crime".

The proof was not discovered until the search was conducted.

Now the Warden in the news snippet, may not have actually seen the fish/lobster but probably figured something was wrong if the guy caught something and made an attempt to hide it. Maybe the bad guy looked side to side to see if anyone was watching, or made a furtive movement to conceal his catch.

Right there you have probable cause for search, and that is a guess why the bad guy got caught.

.02

Reading the article again, it looks like a misquote. It says the Warden testified he did not have a reason for the stop, but I am thinking the public defender was asking did you see the lobster prior to the stop and search. The answer was no, so the PD was arguing the Warden did not have probable cause for search.

mrobinett · Post by **mrobinett** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:07 am

I learned a long time ago that LEO's can make it harder on me than I can make it on them. If you show them an attitude, your just going make it harder on yourself. If they they want to check things, have at it. I've got nothing to hide.

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