Won Bass - Alabama Rig/Umbrella Rig

WON BASSIN · Post by **WON BASSIN** » Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:32 am

Guys,

This is obviously a "HOT TOPIC" since the recent FLW events. I wanted to just make it clear what the WON BASS rules will be or have been in any Team or Pro/Am events in the future. Remember, our rules state that all DFG rules will also apply to any and all of our tournaments!

Per our rules:

Only artificial lures may be used. No live bait, cut or prepared baits other than pork rind or mammal
hide may be used. Fish “attractants and scents” may be utilized. All fishing
must be accomplished with one rod and reel combination used at one time,
meaning each cast must be made and line retrieved before another cast
may be made with another outfit. A contestant may have an unlimited number
of rods and reels on the boat rigged and ready to fish. Trolling, (the act
of manipulating the lure solely by maneuvering the boat under any type of
power) is prohibited. The intentional snagging of fish is strictly prohibited.

Per DFG Rules:

An angler may use 1 rod and 1 reel at 1 time from cast to retrieve. An angler may fish a bait or up to 3 baits at 1 time on 1 rod and 1 reel. The 3 lures may have up to 3 hooks on each lure. If you are throwing an umbrella style rig, then only 3 lures may have hooks on them at anytime, regardless of how many hooks those 3 lures may have on them.

Simple as that!

vinny · Post by **vinny** » Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:29 pm

DFG regs state 3 lures. they make no mention of having dummy lures without hooks on an umbrella rig. Use more than 3 lures at your own risk. JMHO.

bryanmc · Post by **bryanmc** » Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:55 pm

vinny wrote:DFG regs state 3 lures. they make no mention of having dummy lures without hooks on an umbrella rig. Use more than 3 lures at your own risk. JMHO.

This is the DFG definition of lure:
A manufactured article or object equipped with one or more hooks designed to attract or catch fish

Form this page http://www.dfg.ca.gov/regulations/Fresh ... 4-ch1.html

WON BASSIN · Post by **WON BASSIN** » Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:02 pm

My statement was based on a phone conversation I had with one of the leading DFG officials. This thread was created due to the fact that we have our Won Bass TOC this coming weekend, in which we have received multiple phone calls regarding the rules in which we will be enforcing during this event, and all future events in regards to the Umbrella style rigs!

I was told..... "3 lures with hooks from one single line at any time".

drew · Post by **drew** » Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:33 pm

If it doesn't have a hook its not a lure. If your really worried use two willow blades. A willow blade is universally considered an enticer and not a lure..

bryanmc · Post by **bryanmc** » Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:56 pm

That's what I was saying Billy... three with hooks and 2 without and you're good to go.

N.A.R · Post by **N.A.R** » Mon Oct 31, 2011 5:30 pm

Billy what about Arizona and Nevada?

WON BASSIN · Post by **WON BASSIN** » Tue Nov 01, 2011 8:44 am

N.A.R.

I just got off the phone with a few officials from both states. Arizona and Nevada only allow 2 lures to have hooks on them, attached to 1 main line. If you are fishing the Colorado river, you are bound by the state rules in which you live in, or where your main license is distributed by. If California - 3 lures, if Arizona 2 lures!

bassindon69 · Post by **bassindon69** » Tue Nov 01, 2011 9:32 am

Wow! Some of guys must be desperate to try to win a fishing tourney LMAO! The same old guys are STILL going to kick your butts

Even with Two of those rigs going.

tthomasy · Post by **tthomasy** » Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:05 pm

(a) Except as otherwise authorized, all fish may be taken only by angling with one closely attended rod and line or one hand line with not more than three hooks nor more than three artificial lures (each lure may have three hooks attached) attached thereto. Anglers in possession of a valid two-rod stamp and anglers under 16 years of age may use up to two rods in inland waters which regulations provide for the taking of fish by angling, except those waters in which only artificial lures or barbless hooks may be used. See District Trout, Salmon and Special regulations for exceptions.

I have a tourney coming up so I will be monitoring this closely. The way I read this is 3 lures, 3 hooks on each and no more. No dummy lures without hooks.

Ringer · Post by **Ringer** » Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:59 pm

I would double check on the license deal. If you are fishing the AZ side and have three lures with hooks I would be surprised if they cared what state you are from.

drew · Post by **drew** » Tue Nov 01, 2011 1:14 pm

tthomasy wrote: I have a tourney coming up so I will be monitoring this closely. The way I read this is 3 lures, 3 hooks on each and no more. No dummy lures without hooks.

When you find a definition for a dummy lure please post it.

rdesmangles · Post by **rdesmangles** » Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:25 pm

I recently participated in an FLW event where the A-Rig was dominate. Guys were throwing the bait illegally in Tenn. with 5 baits hanging from all 5 wires with hooks. There were bass definitely being caught on the rig and many were being caught with a hook in the lip and also in the head and in the belly - wrapped up like tentacles in an octopus. Perhaps we should worry less about the A-Rig and more about the health of the bass...

WON BASSIN · Post by **WON BASSIN** » Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:55 pm

I'm with rdesmangles on this one!

Every video I have seen with this style lure being used for Black Bass has had at least one fish if not more hooked outside of the mouth. We all know what our rules are on snagged fish.... But it sure leaves room for debate.

Personally I think they have no place in Bass fishing tournaments, but the rules are not based on my personal opinions now are they!

DanIsaac · Post by **DanIsaac** » Tue Nov 01, 2011 4:29 pm

WON BASSIN wrote:I'm with rdesmangles on this one!

Every video I have seen with this style lure being used for Black Bass has had at least one fish if not more hooked outside of the mouth. We all know what our rules are on snagged fish.... But it sure leaves room for debate.

Personally I think they have no place in Bass fishing tournaments, but the rules are not based on my personal opinions now are they!

DITTO Roy,,,,,this is gonna open a whole NEW can so to speak. Personally, I do not envy any of you responsible for interpretation or enforcement of any of the rules surrounding this.

Objectively, I think a case (and a good one) could be made for both sides of this issue.
Just look at the definition again.....despite what DFG is saying, their own Reg says "to ATTRACT or CATCH". So, two dummy baits could be seen as being used to help "ATTRACT", and thus could be seen as illegal to some......especially those on the wrong end...

Just a thought?

Dan

CN · Post by CN » Tue Nov 01, 2011 7:22 pm

Well I for one think this is a joke which means nothing but come on I've fished Naci alot the last month and if this thing will catch fish there it would really suprise me.

Mike

Gene Buchholz · Post by **Gene Buchholz** » Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:04 am

Bill eliminate any controversy ban it or any variations from you tournaments. All this will do is give DFG another reason to put tighter controls on our tournament fishing.

Rick G · Post by **Rick G** » Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:09 am

Gene Buchholz wrote:Bill eliminate any controversy ban it or any variations from you tournaments. All this will do is give DFG another reason to put tighter controls on our tournament fishing.

Another example of the Wussification of California. Why ban anything because it might cause drama for a few. We already have enough regulations as it is. How about this Billy, lets ban the Huddleston because it looks and swims too much like a real trout and its unfair. wawawaw.

Make your directors enforce the laws as they are and dont wimp out. I can see the WB headlines now..."WON bans A-rig", followed by ....."A/C and NBW its ok to use the A-Rig". Follow the law dude. Rick G.

bryanmc · Post by **bryanmc** » Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:39 am

Gene Buchholz wrote: All this will do is give DFG another reason to put tighter controls on our tournament fishing.

Gene, there have been some pretty significant fish kills at tournaments (I can think of one huge one this year alone), long before the Alabama rig was used. DFG says 3 lures with up to 3 hooks each, the A rig complies with that as long as only 3 of the arms have hooks in the lures. DFG also defines a lure as something that has a hook in it, so swimbaits without a hook are not considered a lure. Why would they change a regulation that people are complying with? A super spook or pointer 128 has 9 points to "impale" and injure fish, an Alabama rig set to California regs only has 3 points, where's the concern?

drew · Post by **drew** » Wed Nov 02, 2011 8:59 am

I agree with you Rick, but it appears that Billy/WON is trying to be consistent with the current CA regulations and definitions. There is no mention of other features without hooks. It appears to me that only lesser quality organizations and individuals have added regulations.

ARTICLE 1. FISHING METHODS AND GEAR RESTRICTIONS
2.00. Fishing Methods--General.
(a) Except as otherwise authorized, all fish may be taken only by angling with one closely attended rod and line or one hand line with not more than three hooks nor more than three artificial lures (each lure may have three hooks attached) attached thereto.

Chapter 1. General Provisions and Definitions
1.60. Lure.
A manufactured article or object equipped with one or more hooks designed to attract or catch fish.

Rick G wrote: Another example of the Wussification of California. Why ban anything because it might cause drama for a few. We already have enough regulations as it is. How about this Billy, lets ban the Huddleston because it looks and swims too much like a real trout and its unfair. wawawaw. Make your directors enforce the laws as they are and dont wimp out. I can see the WB headlines now..."WON bans A-rig", followed by ....."A/C and NBW its ok to use the A-Rig". Follow the law dude. Rick G.

elfish16 · Post by **elfish16** » Wed Nov 02, 2011 9:16 am

Rick G wrote:
Gene Buchholz wrote:Bill eliminate any controversy ban it or any variations from you tournaments. All this will do is give DFG another reason to put tighter controls on our tournament fishing.
Another example of the Wussification of California. Why ban anything because it might cause drama for a few. We already have enough regulations as it is. How about this Billy, lets ban the Huddleston because it looks and swims too much like a real trout and its unfair. wawawaw. Make your directors enforce the laws as they are and dont wimp out. I can see the WB headlines now..."WON bans A-rig", followed by ....."A/C and NBW its ok to use the A-Rig". Follow the law dude. Rick G.

This is it right here. Follow the DFG rules and you are fine. If not and you want to bitch and whine, well that's your issue, come see me I will have your tissue.

Come on people. Is this argument really about mortality or unsportsmanship??? Or is it another who is "Holier than the other" debate???

People get on here and complain about so many rules and regs being unfair and unjust but when a new method is brought out the same people call for its ban and want it taken away. This makes the CA angler look pretty sissy and weak.

Have you thought that all this bitchin and moaning is part of the reason why giant Orgs dont bring their derbies out here? they see what a bunch of whiners we are?

Rules are rules...if you are playing by the rules properly from DFG and the Tournament Organization then awesome. Quit whining and fish. For goodness sake

Oldschool · Post by **Oldschool** » Wed Nov 02, 2011 9:41 am

I don't fish tournamants therefore don't have a dog in this fight. The DFG regulations include all the provisions and 2.00(b) "Snagging" puts any fresh water umbrella rig with multiple lures with hooks in jeopardy of violating this regulation.
Tom

drew · Post by **drew** » Wed Nov 02, 2011 9:51 am

Isn't that true of any multiple hook bait. Unfortunately accidental snagging can occur with any lure, but the spirit of the law is to prevent people from loading up 5 treble hooks and deliberately trying to snag fish.

Oldschool wrote:I don't fish tournamants therefore don't have a dog in this fight. The DFG regulations include all the provisions and 2.00(b) "Snagging" puts any fresh water umbrella rig with multiple lures with hooks in jeopardy of violating this regulation.
Tom

bryanmc · Post by **bryanmc** » Wed Nov 02, 2011 12:21 pm

tthomasy wrote: I have a tourney coming up so I will be monitoring this closely. The way I read this is 3 lures, 3 hooks on each and no more. No dummy lures without hooks.

So Tony, according to your logic, if I put 5 swimbaits on an Alabama rig and NONE of them have a hook in them it would be illegal.

N.A.R · Post by **N.A.R** » Wed Nov 02, 2011 12:32 pm

AMEN RICK G !

Dave Wilson · Post by **Dave Wilson** » Wed Nov 02, 2011 12:34 pm

All my commercial Halibut hook n line friends use a rig like this- we called it a spreader bar- maybe you guys can add a big trolling weight and "bounce ball" up some lunkers!

fish_food · Post by **fish_food** » Wed Nov 02, 2011 12:41 pm

Dave Wilson wrote:All my commercial Halibut hook n line friends use a rig like this- we called it a spreader bar- maybe you guys can add a big trolling weight and "bounce ball" up some lunkers!

Yes, wire-lining for bass with Monel and a big Penn Senator.

Ringer · Post by **Ringer** » Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:11 pm

Rick-is it legal with G&F to troll or use live bait? Organizations have defined the way they expect people to fish in bass tournaments and this is just another loophole that will be addressed by all of them including FLW and BASS. Might be interesting TV for a couple of tournaments but then it will be just like watching the walley tour. As long as a circuit lets everyone use whatever method they deem legal I think it is good.

Oldschool · Post by **Oldschool** » Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:35 pm

drew wrote:Isn't that true of any multiple hook bait. Unfortunately accidental snagging can occur with any lure, but the spirit of the law is to prevent people from loading up 5 treble hooks and deliberately trying to snag fish.

Oldschool wrote:I don't fish tournamants therefore don't have a dog in this fight. The DFG regulations include all the provisions and 2.00(b) "Snagging" puts any fresh water umbrella rig with multiple lures with hooks in jeopardy of violating this regulation.
Tom

You are right any lure with multiple hook can and will snag bass. The A-rig is different due to the fact the mulitilple lures are running side by side and the probability of snagging a bass is very high. If the multiple lures have 3 treble hooks for example, snagging by adjacent lures will be nearly 100%. With single hook lures the snagging % goes down and 3 lures verses 5 lures the % drops more, but still highly possible. One exception would be a bass big enough the engulf the entire multiple lure rig in it's mouth.
Keep in mind DFG regulations we are dicussing are fresh water. Any fish snagged either by accident or intentionally violates the snagging regulation. Tournament rules must follow DFG regs. At a minimum the A-rig or umbrella rig should be restricted to 3 single hook lures in CA.
Tom

bryanmc · Post by **bryanmc** » Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:59 pm

Tom... the lures on an alabama rig are only about 4-5" apart. The odds are better that the wire on the rig will deflect the bait away from a fish rather than snag it. In order to get the hook, a fish will most likely have to come from the rear quadrant. As I mentioned before, there are more points on a pointer 128 (9) than on a CA legal Alabama rig (3 in most cases).

If you go to the website, the originator even talks about using the rig with 5 brush hogs texas rigged on the bottom. I can only think of one thing that's going to snag...

Oldschool · Post by **Oldschool** » Wed Nov 02, 2011 2:06 pm

bryanmc wrote:Tom... the lures on an alabama rig are only about 4-5" apart. The odds are better that the wire on the rig will deflect the bait away from a fish rather than snag it. In order to get the hook, a fish will most likely have to come from the rear quadrant. As I mentioned before, there are more points on a pointer 128 (9) than on a CA legal Alabama rig (3 in most cases).

If you go to the website, the originator even talks about using the rig with 5 brush hogs texas rigged on the bottom. I can only think of one thing that's going to snag...

How many points are on 3 128 Pointers; ans 27, Bass strike from the side, behind or up from the bottom most of the time. The wires are located in front of the lures.
I can't see too many bass hitting this rig unless they are feeding on suspended baitfish, the heavy wires alone will spook our clear warer SoCal bass. However, this A-rig will be used and bass will be snagged as a result. Lots of finger pointing will result in tournaments and special regs will be created as a result.
Tom

bryanmc · Post by **bryanmc** » Wed Nov 02, 2011 2:17 pm

I guess what I was getting at Tom was that all the folks I have seen using this reg have been using swimbaits with single hooks. Of course, without using the A-rig you can still legally daisy chain 3 pointer 128's with 3 2/0 trebles on each and be legal, even in the Hook tournaments

I really think folks are making WAY too much out of this new presentation.

BIG BAIT · Post by **BIG BAIT** » Wed Nov 02, 2011 2:53 pm

Let me call the Whaaaabulance. Really snagging fish while fishing an alabama rig? Have you seen people fish it? it is slow rolled with five baits. For as much drag on the bait, and as much water as it moves, I would like to see someone rip that bait hard enough or fast enough to snag a bass. More fish are snagged on jerkbaits than will be slow rolling an alabamba rig. That is like saying fishing a spinnerbait with a trailer hook will result in more snagging of fish. A double fluke rig will ultimatly snag more fish also. A drop shot rig tied above a shakey head might snag a bass as it is head down looking at the shakey rig. How about everyone gets their righteous panties out of a knot and fish.

Gene Buchholz · Post by **Gene Buchholz** » Wed Nov 02, 2011 3:08 pm

First of all I'm not winning I am thinking of the additional mortality rate it will have on the fish.I am the first on to jump on a bait to sell if I think it is hot. Second it is not the DFG regulations why the FLW and BASS aren't having more events part of it is cost and the rest is participation.
It's my two cents worth and my decision as a TD to do for what I think is best for the fish.
All I can see is problems.

bryanmc · Post by **bryanmc** » Wed Nov 02, 2011 3:16 pm

Gene.. I asked you on the other forum and maybe you didn't see it. Is there any data from back east where this rig is getting a lot of use that it increases fish mortality? I do, however, respect your right as a TD to make whatever rule you wish.

BIG BAIT · Post by **BIG BAIT** » Wed Nov 02, 2011 3:16 pm

How can a rig that most guys fish with three single hook swimbaits have a high mortality rate? I bet more fish have lost an eye smashing a fast moving topater plug with three treble hooks. That is a high mortality rate. How can it be higher than a plastic worm? That bait is fished slow giving fish a much higher chance to swallow the lure, leading to a higher mortality rate. What about weightless senkos? If a fish hits it on the fall and swims at you that will lead to gut hooking and a higher mortality rate. Better ban all scents and attractants that might lead to fish swallowing a lure, that will lead to a higher mortality rate. You are making a personal choice but blaming a higher mortality rate is just stupid.

Oldschool · Post by **Oldschool** » Wed Nov 02, 2011 3:43 pm

BIG BAIT wrote:Let me call the Whaaaabulance. Really snagging fish while fishing an alabama rig? Have you seen people fish it? it is slow rolled with five baits. For as much drag on the bait, and as much water as it moves, I would like to see someone rip that bait hard enough or fast enough to snag a bass. More fish are snagged on jerkbaits than will be slow rolling an alabamba rig. That is like saying fishing a spinnerbait with a trailer hook will result in more snagging of fish. A double fluke rig will ultimatly snag more fish also. A drop shot rig tied above a shakey head might snag a bass as it is head down looking at the shakey rig. How about everyone gets their righteous panties out of a knot and fish.

My point isn't intentional snagging. It's snagging regardless how it occurs.
The bass strikes only one of the lures and starts to fight, during the fight another lure that is a few inches away snags the bass, the bass now has 1 hook in the mouth and another in it's side. As the bass continues to fight the mouth hook comes out and now the bass has only the snagged hook in it's side. If you are tournament fishing, the bass must be released and happens all the time with crank baits and jerk baits with multiple hooks.
With a spreader with multiple lures, including single hook swimbaits a higher percentage of the bass will be snagged than any other lure or rig now on the market. What is new is a bass with one lure hooked in the mouth and another lure hooked into it's side. Under the DFG regs the bass hooked in it's side or snagged by another lure must be released.
Spreaders are not new, just new to fresh water tournament bass fishing.
Trophy bass anglers have been trolling multiple swimbaits on spreaders for years under the radar.
Tom

bryanmc · Post by **bryanmc** » Wed Nov 02, 2011 3:52 pm

Tom...
While I know this is an old debate, please post the exact regulation from DFG that says the hook must be inside the mouth. The reg say the fish must voluntarily attempt to take the bait in it's mouth, it says nothing about a hook and the word hook does not even appear in the regulation..

offduty · Post by **offduty** » Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:02 pm

Rick G · Post by **Rick G** » Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:33 pm

We all should just abide by the rules the state has given us. Enough said. I have been in the tackle business for 32 years and it is driven by folks just like Andy Poss, who just invented an better mousetrap. Give the poor guy a chance. I know 4-5 other mfg's which have started making their own versions. This A-Rig will be knocked off faster than you can say Chatterbait. Hope he sells a slug first and maybe the fish here will bite it for a while before ignoring it like tons of all the other "Hot" baits that get released. Sell away Andy! Rick G.

CN · Post by CN » Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:33 pm

I am all for new bait's and technic's Rick but this just take's away to much of what I like about fishing for bass. I get as much enjoyment out of figuring out where and what they want useing one lure. I fish the salt alot and it's a no brainer when the fish are here. Pretty much just go out and catch. Not bass and this thing is just a little to much for me. Perhap's the chance of catching three at once if you're fishing an event is more important.

bryanmc · Post by **bryanmc** » Thu Nov 03, 2011 5:23 am

CN wrote:I am all for new bait's and technic's Rick but this just take's away to much of what I like about fishing for bass.

Then you shouldn't fish with one. I have no problem with that at all. The problem comes when other people who don't like it try to keep people who want to use it from using it, even though it's legal. Is it possible that you might unintentionally foul hook a fish with it? Sure, but I've unintentionally foul hooked fish with a #1 dropshot hook. Anything you throw out in the water that has a point on it has the possibility of foul hooking a fish.

Oldschool · Post by **Oldschool** » Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:43 am

bryanmc wrote:Tom...
While I know this is an old debate, please post the exact regulation from DFG that says the hook must be inside the mouth. The reg say the fish must voluntarily attempt to take the bait in it's mouth, it says nothing about a hook and the word hook does not even appear in the regulation..

2.00. Fishing Methods-General. 2011-2012 Fresh Water Sport Fishing Regulations.
(b) Snagging is prohibited. Snagging is defined as impaling or attempting to impale a fish in any part of its body other than the mouth by use of a hook, hooks, gaff, or other mechanical implement. This definition does not include activities otherwise authorized under these regulations for the lawful use of gaff, bow and arrow, or spear.
Tom

bryanmc · Post by **bryanmc** » Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:11 am

I was referring to this one Tom which is the one always used in the "hook inside the mouth" debates. The way I read the snagging reg, the act must be intentional.

1.05. Angling.
To take fish by hook and line with the line held in the hand, or with the line attached to a pole or rod held in the hand or closely attended in such manner that the fish voluntarily takes the bait or lure in its mouth.

If you look at the regs in section 210, dropshotting would be illegal (4. It is unlawful to use any weight directly attached below a hook). as would any single hook larger than 6/0 and the stock double hook in a snag proof frog (1. No person shall use any single hook with a gap greater than 1 inch or any multiple hook with a gap greater than 3/4 inch) and jigging spoons greater than 1/2 oz and carolina rigs over 1/2 oz with leaders less than 18" (2. It is unlawful to use any hook which is directly or indirectly attached closer than 18 inches to any weight exceeding 1/2 ounce).

Just how far do you want to extrapolate the regulations, by the letter of the law or the spirit of the law?

Oldschool · Post by **Oldschool** » Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:46 am

The 2.10 (b) applies to rivers and streams, not lakes and reservoirs, ....not sure about the Colorado river?
2.00 (a) is OK if the A-rig has 3 lures etc.
2.00 (b) is clear, snagging is prohibited. Remember the Dottie fiasco. No intent to snag, however if a bass is snagged, it's an illegal catch according to both 1.05 and 2.00 (b).
I have fished with spreader rigs for decades in the ocean where the regulations allows snagged fish and avioded using spreaders or umbrella rigs in fresh water due to the fact you must release any snagged fish regardless how it managed to become snagged. I'm not tournament fishing so my concern was with a potential world record bass. If the bass was snagged in any way the catch would be disallowed, like Dottie was for example.
Bass will be snagged during tournaments using the A-rig or any umbrella rig that has multiple lures with hooks running side by side.
Lets just step back watch how this shorts out. I see a lot of trolled A-rigs with the weekenders in the upcoming months, along with a few tournaments being won.
Tom

bryanmc · Post by **bryanmc** » Thu Nov 03, 2011 9:00 am

You're right about 210b and I stand corrected, however 210c does make the snagproof frog hook illegal in the delts by 1/8" or so.

I agree that we should let nature take its course on this one.

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