Castaic quagga Mussel meeting

[propgun]

Folks we need everyone to try and attend this meeting Tuesday night at the Bisc @ 6:30(lower lake castaic) Dept.of Parks and Recreation is trying to do a mandatory 9 day wait between pyramid and Castaic Lakes. If you fish or use the lakes for recreation you can forget about having the freedom to move between lakes. They are trying to do away with the clean and dry system all because they found 6 dead adult mussels in Elderberry lake. Which by the way we as boaters have no access to. So please do what you can to be at the meeting Tuesday night we need to make a showing here to protect our tournaments and the use of the lakes.

[Ron T.]

Don't forget that all three lakes share millions of gallons of water on a regular basis . Back and forth from Elderberry to Pyramid to generate electricity and from Elderberry to Castaic to feed the water supply to all of us. Any restrictions back and forth from Pyramid to Castaic is ridiculous. On another note, Since Pyramid is considered to be "infested" and Piru has been infested for a couple years now, at the very least shouldn't we be able to travel from pyramid to Piru as well ? To say that a boat will make the difference of weather or not this guagga will spread between these three public waterways is simply crazy.

[mrobinett]

You have to wonder if there is any common sense to anybody who are making these senseless regulations or proposals.

[DDG]

You have to wonder if there is any common sense to anybody who are making these senseless regulations or proposals.

Every Small lake in the SF Bay Area has the inspections now too

[mark poulson]

You have to wonder if there is any common sense to anybody who are making these senseless regulations or proposals.

Common sense seems to be the most uncommon thing, at least where bureaucrats are concerned. Of course, the bureaucrats in most government agencies are the ones who actually know what needs to be done. But they are ruled by politicians, and they are held accountable by elected officials, whose motto is, "Don't let it happen on my watch", so it's really not their fault. Having something negative happen in their department brings down the wrath of the elected officials above them, and immediate funding cuts, so they are kind of forced to be non-controversial, or they get hung out to dry.

[MikeR]

There are so many agencies involved it's no wonder there isn't a consensus as to policy and why common sense will not prevail.

All the talking heads will hide behind the policy and not speak directly the issue or answer common sense questions posed to them, just watch. That is their job, to follow and clearly state "POLICY". I'll be at the meeting but after going through what we did for Casitas and loosing the water battle, allowing water to be continually released when creeks and rivers upstream of the lake are completely dry, I don't have much hope that common sense will prevail.

It all makes sense to us but bureaucracy will get in the way. I just got a group text from ABA that the Forest Service just made a decision to reschedule the Pyramid derby this weekend due to Quagga Mussel "issue".

The state water's website acknowledges that Pyramid, Elderberry, Castaic, and the Castaic Lower lagoon are considered infested. That's one agency. Now it's going to be up to the LA County Parks , the Federal Energy regulatory Commission, the National Marine Fisheries, the US Fish and Wildlife and the State Fish and Wildlife departments to come to a consensus and determine a reasonable and fair policy for all concerned.

Any guess as to how long this would take with that many agencies involved?

For those who thought that having all lakes infested would solve the problem, guess again. It is compounding the problem.

Side note: I believe that if Pyramid is infested so is Lake Isabella. There are many that fish both lakes and Isabella doesn't have an inspection process as far as I know. I could be wrong, I haven't been there in a couple of years.

New circuit: Isabella, Pyramid, Castaic, Piru. Sound good?!

Mike

[mrobinett]

To me, the common sense rule, would be to have a Pyramid, Castaic, Piru tag and we can fish between those lakes. But to not allow a boat between those lakes now, is just stupid.

[mark poulson]

To me, the common sense rule, would be to have a Pyramid, Castaic, Piru tag and we can fish between those lakes. But to not allow a boat between those lakes now, is just stupid.

A fing men!

[MikeR]

So........ Here's some of the take aways from the meeting last night:

The department of water's position right now is that Pyramid is confirmed as infested as is Elderberry. Because no quaggas have been physically found in Castaic lake itself, it is "presumed" to be infested. "Presumed infested" and not "confirmed infested" means that grant money will continue to be available from the State for the inspection and tagging process for as long as no mussels are found or a confirmed. Pyramid lost their grant funding when they were determined to be infested. The State water representative, in her opening presentation, did state and later acknowledged that quaggas are spread through water distribution.

Because no quaggas have been physically found at Castaic,and in order to prevent or slow the establishment of the quagga at Castaic, any boat coming from a known infested lake such as Pyramid, will have or be on a full 8 day quarantine prior to being allowed to launch at Castaic.

The State's water department representative, speaking with her after the meeting, feels that there is a chance that a colony has not established itself at Castaic as of now, and that these more stringent inspection and quarantine process will slow the chance of infestation. Until a quagga is found in Castaic lake, this policy will not change. Apparently there are some studies from Arizona showing that a lake can test positive for quaggas and then be found to not have them in subsequent inspections and samplings. This information was shared by another fellow angler (from Ventura) whose name I failed to get, in our after meeting conversation with Tammy, the State Water rep.

So there is scientific data established that shows that a lake, even though it might test positive at one point, can contain and possibly eradicate the mussel before it becomes established.

Now, most of us have seen how fast these things spread at Mead and to all the lakes downstream in the Colorado River chain of lakes below Mead. I believe, it's only a matter of time that quaggas will be discovered at Castaic. It's inevitable given the water transfer that takes place between the two lakes, Elderberry and Pyramid, and the release of water into Castaic from Elderberry.

One of the best points made by another angler there (whose name I also did not get), was that lakes, Pyramid, Elderberry, Castaic and Castaic's lower lake or lagoon should be considered as "one body of water" because of the shared water and the pumping back and forth. This point was well taken by the Policy makers, however, Tammy argued that water from Castaic is not sent back up to Pyramid, only the water in Elderberry is, so she feels they are two separate bodies of water.

Another point made and "taken in for consideration" is the 8 day quarantine. When questioned as to why 8 days and not 3 days as is the policy for boats coming into the State from Arizona, NO ONE would answer the question directly. I believe that the lake manager is Norm, is the decision maker here as far the "8 day dry" policy is concerned, but he is taking advice from the scientists and State department of water, as well as fish and game.

A hot water pressure wash station was brought up. Bill Simental offered to donate $5000 towards this and the one of the Friends of Castaic group chimed in stating they would help provide that as well if that would facilitate the movement between Pyramid and Castaic.

Others asked whether providing a receipt for a hot water pressure wash from one of the many truck stop washes in town might or could be considered as a solution. Unfortunately, this won't happen because there is no way that the lake can monitor or assure that a pressure wash was done properly at one of the truck stop stations. In addition, Tammy took issue with this procedure in itself, stating that hot water spray must be held for a certain period of time to effectively eliminate or kill any quagga veligers/mussel and this is an expensive and time consuming procedure that just isn't viable, but it is something the Lake management might consider.

In the end, I think a few key points were made by the anglers there.

1. The lakes should be considered as one.
2. Since the lakes share water, the boats aren't the problem. The transfer of water is the problem and that's not going to change. Imposing an 8 day quarantine is punishing a group that impacts the problem minimally in comparison to the State Water Dept's transfer of water into Castaic.
3. 8 day quarantine should be reconsidered as it is not consistent with the CA state border crossing policy from Arizona. Tammy did state that it is consistent and that 8 days gives a full 7 day "dry out" period further assuring the chance of holding off or preventing the establishment of the mussel.
4. We care, we are here to help, and we are not the problem. We share the same concerns (to some extent) as the lake management, the State Water dept, and Fish and Game but are being unfairly penalized.

No change will happen overnight. We as anglers must continue to prod and demand information and keep pressure on the lake, Fish and Game, and the State Department of water. During our after meeting conversation, Tammy did say that once the quagga is confirmed at Castaic, it will be back to normal with travel between the two lakes being allowed. Until then we're stuck and at their mercy.

Mike

[mark poulson]

Mike, thanks for the great report.
I'm surprised that the same pressure wash system used at Cachuma (when it still had water) isn't acceptable for Castaic.
And a big thanks to Bill Siemental for stepping up, and the FOCL, too.
Did they explain how they check Castaic for Quagga infestations?

[MikeR]

Mike, thanks for the great report.
I'm surprised that the same pressure wash system used at Cachuma (when it still had water) isn't acceptable for Castaic.
And a big thanks to Bill Siemental for stepping up, and the FOCL, too.
Did they explain how they check Castaic for Quagga infestations?

Mark and everyone,

The State representative said that substrates are sunk and periodically checked to see if quagga mussels attached. The larvae are looked for microscopically in water samples taken.

From a fisherman's point of view: The sooner they find them, the better.

From the State's point of view: They hope to stop or at least slow the spread and hope not to find any for as long as possible.

From the Lake's point of view: See the State's point of view above.

Everyone must remember as Casitas reminded us years ago; We as recreational users are not a priority. Selling and transferring water is THEIR BUSINESS and PRIORITY. Don't even think otherwise, you're kidding yourself and others. If it wasn't a business, water delivery would have stopped the day the mussel was discovered at Elderberry and Pyramid, and presumed to be at Castaic and the lower lagoon. Boaters and fisherman are an incidental part of the money equation for these water agencies and lakes. The revenue generated by us does not support the services in their entirely, not even close. Not when I see 2 to 4 lifeguards working every day, at least 1 or two sheriffs every day, a couple of Radon boats,a large inflatable Sheriff's boat powered with twin Honda's, gate attendants, boat inspectors, and all other management. Just do the math...There is no way day use fees pay for the salaries of all. At $24 a pop, if 80 boats showed up to use the lake and none had a yearly pass and had to pony up, the lake would only generate $1920 per day. Sure, the summer will see many more on a daily basis but I'll bet the average daily use is less than 60. Unless everyone there is being paid minimum wage and the boats are solar powered, 80 boasts and $1920 might cover half of the daily expenses. When's the last time you saw 80 boats hit the lake? Hell, they can't or won't even fix the f'n road leading from the gate to the launch ramp. Why??? See above...."We are not a priority".

Tammy reminded us last night, very passionately I might add, that she could have "Closed the lake", "shut it down" when the discovery was made. She also reminded us in the same tone of voice that "instead, with the lake's help, they worked very hard and came up with a containment program and system in 2 days to accommodate the recreational users".

Tournament fishing in So Cal has already been dealt one blow after another with individual lake inspections versus state wide inspection process and cable system. This is another big blow until this is resolved and confirmation of a quagga infestation is made at Castaic.

Fish and Game don't want tournaments on back to back weekends on the same lake so moving all tournaments to one lake is not an option without some major rescheduling. I believer Brian Linehan has already moved all of the scheduled Pyramid tournaments to Castaic to avoid conflict. I imagine Randy Pringle and Chris Gilkisen of BBT will be trying to do the same, at least I hope so, but I can't speak for them.

If we want to continue competing on more than one body of water, our only other choices is to go North to the Central Coast or further (they have water), South to San Diego and cable into their lakes, or head east out to AZ and NV. Most of us don't have the luxury to take the time off or have the means to commit to a region 4 to 6 hours away, but we do have the passion. For some of us the passion will override good sense and we will commit to travelling to compete and fish. I want variety and the ability to travel without being impeded between lakes. I feel it is our right not a privilege. A smarter man than I, with a legal background, should be able to find the achilles heel of the regulations being imposed and be able to challenge this and other nonsensical policies being enforced by the state.

With what we pay for a fishing license, boat registration, and the new quagga mussel fee, we should demand that this Republic of California, oops sorry, the State of California, build State certified boat cleaning and inspections stations. Each major city in our state should have one. A standardized, scientific, and safe procedure that guarantees that a boat after having and passing a clean and dry inspection, is then fully sprayed down outside and in the bilge with hot water for a pre-determined time per square foot or length of boat, to fully insure the boat is clean and void of any vilegers or mussels . They could then run an outboard or inboard in the same hot water to assure anything in the motor is dead as well. For wake boats with ballast tanks and even for other style boats, a camera can be utilized to verify clean and dry. We have the technology, but we lack the organization as a group to implement this or start the process that will lead to this. I'm sure there are some organizations that work and fight on our behalf as fisherman, and maybe this is already in the works, I don't know.

I'm sure all this will be a big discussion at the upcoming Fred Hall show in Long Beach this year. I'll be there with a booth this year. I'm interested in hearing other ideas regarding a Statewide program.

Mike

[mrobinett]

That's a great report Mike. But my question is, as it stands now, if my boat hasn't been in any lake for a couple of weeks, would I be able to go to Castaic or Pyramid and fish or would I have to go get cabled and return after the 8 days?

[mark poulson]

MikeR,
Back when this whole Quagga Mussel thing first became an issue, when they were talking about restricting Casitas (which they did in March of 2008) I suggested the best, cheapest way to insure that boats wouldn't carry mussels from one lake to another was to put back-in dip troughs in the parking lots, filled with mussel-killing chemicals like Peregrine 250 or vinegar, and have each boat back in with it's plug pulled, run it's livewell pumps and big motor, inflate and pump out their wake boat bladders, and then pull out and be cabled. The cable would be recognized wherever they went as Quagga free, so they could fish any participating lake, and, more importantly, the mussels wouldn't be spread by boaters.
It would have worked then, and probably still would, but the State didn't want to take the lead, because then they would be liable for repairs/maintenance if a covered lake got infested anyway.
I bet there are folks here with even better ideas, but politicians will never take that kind of a risk. Their motto is "Better to be safe AND sorry, as long as it can't be blamed on me".

[Keith R]

That's a great report Mike. But my question is, as it stands now, if my boat hasn't been in any lake for a couple of weeks, would I be able to go to Castaic or Pyramid and fish or would I have to go get cabled and return after the 8 days?

You can go to either lake and fish as long as you pass inspection prior to going in If you are tagged for Castaic, you can continue to go back to Castaic. If you go to Pyramid, you will have an 8 day quarantine before you can go back to Castaic where you will have to go through the inspection process again. You also have to be inspected prior to leaving Lake Castaic which will be a nightmare come summer time when the recreational boaters are out as well as the anglers.

I have a question as well. Who else does Castaic sell the water to. Is this whole "Presumed Infested" just a way for the people involved to hide the fact that they are selling infested water to other lakes in Southern California. After listening to that meeting, I don't see how anyone could stand up there and say that Castaic is not infested. With the amount of water being transferred between the 3 pools, it is impossible. Maybe they do not want to be liable for the other lakes that buy water from Castaic. These other bodies of water, if any, will have to start a clean and dry process as well. More employees, more salaries!!!!!!
I do not know if other lakes downstream from Castaic buy water. But if they do.......they are buying infested water.
Just my 2 cents.

[MikeR]

That's a great report Mike. But my question is, as it stands now, if my boat hasn't been in any lake for a couple of weeks, would I be able to go to Castaic or Pyramid and fish or would I have to go get cabled and return after the 8 days?

For Pyramid and Castaic, if you are clean and dry your in.

For Castaic, if you are on the "list" showing your visited Pyramid your quarantined for 8 days.

Pyramid will honor Castaic's Tag but not Visa Versa.

Mike

[MikeR]

That's a great report Mike. But my question is, as it stands now, if my boat hasn't been in any lake for a couple of weeks, would I be able to go to Castaic or Pyramid and fish or would I have to go get cabled and return after the 8 days?

You can go to either lake and fish as long as you pass inspection prior to going in If you are tagged for Castaic, you can continue to go back to Castaic. If you go to Pyramid, you will have an 8 day quarantine before you can go back to Castaic where you will have to go through the inspection process again. You also have to be inspected prior to leaving Lake Castaic which will be a nightmare come summer time when the recreational boaters are out as well as the anglers.

I have a question as well. Who else does Castaic sell the water to. Is this whole "Presumed Infested" just a way for the people involved to hide the fact that they are selling infested water to other lakes in Southern California. After listening to that meeting, I don't see how anyone could stand up there and say that Castaic is not infested. With the amount of water being transferred between the 3 pools, it is impossible. Maybe they do not want to be liable for the other lakes that buy water from Castaic. These other bodies of water, if any, will have to start a clean and dry process as well. More employees, more salaries!!!!!!
I do not know if other lakes downstream from Castaic buy water. But if they do.......they are buying infested water.
Just my 2 cents.

Keith,

EXCELLENT POINT!! It should have been discussed at the meeting. That really would have started to "peel the onion" and get to the heart of the matter about the Water Department's policy as well as well as what their true agenda is. Selling Water at all costs, screw the rest of the lakes.

The inspection process accepted at Pyramid was doomed to fail. C'mon, we all saw it, but no one spoke up. The inspection station is on a grade, a DOWNHILL grade. How can you check for water when it's all the way in the nose of the boat. Ridiculous. The inspection process was a joke as it was at Piru, also on a downhill slope. Who approved the inspection process at both lakes, the State Water Department? Fish and Game? If so, they failed.

What needs to be addressed is what Keith just brought up. Where does the water go from Castaic and what is the State water department telling those lakes? As far as I know it's Silverwood and Perris. Perris isn't due for water until next year or whenever the dam repairs are complete. This should be public information and we need it before the next meeting, if there is one.

Since Pyramid had been confirmed as infested; Every lake will get the mussel that receives water from Pyramid/Castaic. It is only a matter of time and history has proven that, just look at the Colorado river and what' happened. The state will have to construct a new pipeline to transfer water from above Pyramid to lakes below Castaic that are get water now so as to prevent this. It's the only way unless they "super heat" the water as it leaves Castaic.

That's what wasn't discussed and should have been. IF another meeting is held we need to be more organized and have a pre-meeting to refine our questions. List them so that when the time comes, it doesn't become a shouting match, but an interrogation of them, by us. The questions can be organized in such a way that our point can be made. We'll just line up each person willing to speak with a specific question, in the order we decide on, and go after it. They have some explaining to do and if we organize ourselves this way we can accomplish a lot and really bring to light the repercussions of their failure as well as get them to rescind the 8 day quarantine. If the State's policy is now 3 days coming from a lake in Arizona, adding 1 day making it a 4 day quarantine would be a concession to them and will give the policy makers some added assurance that we're clean. But in the end, who the hell are they trying to kid! They are dumping millions of gallons a day into Castaic right now and have all but guaranteed full contamination of Castaic and beyond. The boats will have no impact. Our boats are dry. The facts need to come out.

We should not be beyond Civil Disobedience either, I'm not. Can you imagine the media attention we would get if 200 plus bass boats and their tow rigs happened to stage a "drive in", and we tied up Interstate 5 for hours driving back and forth from Castaic to Pyramid?

If the lake policy makers won't listen to reason and follow their own stated policies (3 days dry from over the border) we need to bring attention to them and have them explain to the public, through the media, why their policy is not consistent with the current state policy. What is the basis of their decision? HOPE or science? Like I said they have a lot to explain and we can expose the truth if we organize ourselves a little better.

Mike

[Ron T.]

The only other 2 water storage facilities down stream from Castaic that I can come up with is the basin we all see to the west of I-5 just south of 5 /14 split and boquet res. Neither a public waterway but I'm sure its a consideration for big money maintenance if infested. Although I believe that water is treated on the downhill side to the resavour off I-5. I could be wrong but when asking about Castaic selling or giving up water I think the water they sell or divert is water that they are allotted from north that has not yet reached so cal. Diverted before headed our way. Just a stab in the dark, I could be completely wrong.

[Viking]

Forgive my ignorance, but it sounds like the best case scenario as far as fisherman are concerned would be for Castaic to be infested as soon as possible?? And, if that is the case, what would stop anyone from bringing a tennis shoe full of Quagas dredged up from Piru and dumping them in Castaic??

[mark poulson]

Forgive my ignorance, but it sounds like the best case scenario as far as fisherman are concerned would be for Castaic to be infested as soon as possible?? And, if that is the case, what would stop anyone from bringing a tennis shoe full of Quagas dredged up from Piru and dumping them in Castaic??

Anyone doing that who got caught would face jail time, and huge penalties on the order of bankruptcy.
The State would love to have a fall guy, so they can say, "We've been doing everything in our powers to protect our water, but this nasty boater has sabotaged our best efforts".
Can't you just see the headlines?

[MikeR]

Forgive my ignorance, but it sounds like the best case scenario as far as fisherman are concerned would be for Castaic to be infested as soon as possible?? And, if that is the case, what would stop anyone from bringing a tennis shoe full of Quagas dredged up from Piru and dumping them in Castaic??

Your right. That's what the policy could lead to. No one should do this. Let nature take it's course.

Jay Poore reminded me at the meeting that the one quagga they found at Pryamid was in 200 feet of water and they didn't or couln't pick it up and then could not locate it again. Hmmmhhhhhh!!!!!

Also when questioned about what gender the mussels discovered in the tunnel were; Tanya answered that the mussels had dried up to the point of not being able to determine gender. Hmmhhhhh!! The State of California probably doesn't have the scientific resources to examine and determine this. Right?

Your point is well taken and was expressed at the meeting. "Hurry up and find the mussel". As soon as that happens and the lake becomes "confirmed infested", we will be able to travel between the two lakes freely. And then... why not Piru too. But don't forget once they loose their status as "presumed infested, they will loose their grant for inspections. The grants are posted available to be viewed on line. Jay has been instrumental in doing finding the information a the Department of Boating and Waterways.

I'll just say it again. THE LAKES LOOSE THEIR GRANT MONEY ONCE INFESTED. There is motivation NOT to find the mussel, in my opinion. I am not accusing anyone of being dishonest, but what's the motivation to find it? It's a conflict of interest. Fox in the Hen house. They loose, and will pass the burden on to us as recreational users.

The person in charge of the grant program funding the quagga and zebra prevention program at both Pyramid and Castaic as listed on the website can be seen below, including contact information.

California Department of Water Resources Tanya Veldhuizen
tanyav@water.ca.gov
(916) 657-3609 Open
Pyramid Lake
Implementation/Construction

California Department of Water Resources Tanya Veldhuizen
tanyav@water.ca.gov
(916) 657-3609 Open
Castaic Lake
Implementation/Construction

Tanya not Tammy as I might have previously posted, was one of the presenters and said at the meeting she could shut down the lake to us boaters, it was her call. What is abso-f'n-lutely RIDICULOUS is that she, or someone above her, continues to allow water to be passed "down hill" to the other lakes in the chain and won't let us go between the two lakes clean and dry?????!!! Who's the real culprit here? Surely NOT the fisherman or boaters. We're not dumping in 3500 acre feet of water everyday. Maybe some DEW from the morning air, but certainly not 3500 acre feet per DAY. What the hell?

Is money driving policy?

Tanya stated at the meeting that Pyramid's grant was closed once the discovery was made. The website states differently but has probably not been updated since the discovery. I guess? Maybe? Is it the truth? Jay found the $$ figure on line. I believe it's to the tune of $444,000 or something like that. I don't want to misquote the $$$ so maybe Jay Poore will chime in. It's an enormous sum for each lake but there are large costs associated with the inspection process. Bill Simental..... Keep your $5000 for the wash station that you and a couple of others suggested..... DITTO Friends of Castaic......I think BOTH lakes have enough money to handle a hot water pressure washer and a dunk tank to run hot water through motors. Whaddya Think?

I'm curious to know if we can perform our own test or will taking water from either lake constitute "knowingly transferrring mussels or their larvae, the veligers and violate the statute that the Fish and Game rep kept quoting?

What if WE had an INDEPENDENT STUDY done, testing water samples at both lakes to confirm or deny the presence? I'd like to explore that.

I'm a member of a Rotary group here in Ventura, Rotary of Ventura South is my group. We try and follow 4 simple guidelines/principles in our daily lives and use these to measure our decisions by.

• Is it the TRUTH?
  Is it FAIR to ALL concerned?
  Will it bring GOODWILL and BETTER FRIENDSHIPS?
  IS IT BENEFICIAL to ALL concerned?

It's call the 4-WAY TEST.

I challenge Tanya and Norm at Lake Castaic to measure their decision on the 8 day quarantine and the hardship you have placed on boaters, not to mention the act of ignoring physics (the downstream thing and the shared water, one body of water theory) against these 4 principles! In my opinion, based on history of the mussel in the west and science, their decision cannot pass the 4 WAY test.

Mike