Should off-limits be reinstated? PLEASE VOTE! Important.

Brian Linehan · Post by **Brian Linehan** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 11:23 am

All right guys, I'm posting this because I plan to speak with all of the team tournament organizations and I'd like to hear your feedback before I do. I know that there are hundreds if not thousands of you who regularly check the forum daily without ever posting and I hope that you'll participate in this poll.

Going back 5-10 years ago, all team tournaments had strict cutoffs. If you were going to fish a Saturday event, the last day you could pre-fish would be the previous Sunday. This leveled the playing field and seperated the "men from the boys" come Saturday.

Then, the organizations allowed for a Friday-only pre-fish because of the distances fishermen had to travel (Powell and Colorodo regions). In retrospect, this wasn't a bad rule and I would like to see this off-limits rule reinstated. The fishing was better come tournament day and the fish didn't get "beat up" all week.

However, when all of the organizations decided to scrap the off-limits period entirely, it made a negative impact for us as tournament fishermen. I don't buy into the theory that the organizations got rid of the off-limits because of long distance regions like the Colorado and Powell. While those regions are very important, they are a small minority of the regions involved.

When tournament fishermen are allowed to fish 3-5 times during the week of a weekend team tournament, they will undoubtedly hurt the bite for the Saturday tournament. They might not think that they are hurting their bite and will go out and stick fish on banks other than theirs. I know this because I've done it. This mentality makes every one of our tournaments tougher and often awards the fishermen who basically don't work and live on a lake for weeks on end. The "true" best teams are the ones that can make the necessary adjustments to do well, not the ones who practice Mon-Fri for a local team tournament.

Also, we have seen several cheating incidents in the last 2 years on our local waters. It would be naive to believe that reinstating an off-limits period will eliminate cheaters, but it might make it tougher.

How do we police or enforce an off-limits? Quite simply, you can't. That being said, we are a small, tight-knit group of anglers who pretty much know each other. I would hope that anyone who is remotely serious/interested in the sport would understand why it's important to obey the off-limits.

I'm hoping that the tournament organizations take a look at the positives and negatives of reinstating the off-limits period and would really appreciate all of your feedback. I believe that they will listen to us provided that I get enough feedback. Remember, we are the reason why they exist and I would hope that they would listen.

Thank you,
Brian

mac (Doyle McEwen) · Post by **mac (Doyle McEwen)** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 12:16 pm

Good points both pro and con..I do not believe that the during the week fishing really hurts the overall results of any team tournament, but I do believe it does give an advantage to those that can and do get out during the week on the water they have a weekend tourney on..It isn't fair or unfair, but in order to more level the playing field an off limits time period should exist..

mac

Brian Linehan · Post by **Brian Linehan** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 12:49 pm

Thanks for your input Mac. Isn't it common sense that more pressure makes the bit tougher? Maybe I'm off base, it's just my opinion.

Fishin' Dave · Post by **Fishin' Dave** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 1:12 pm

Bring back the off limits!!!!

ask the question while hooked up to a pollygraph

If we can find fish cagers, snaggers with super glue, and others, we can find pre-fishers.

It's time to make bass tournaments working man friendly again!

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 1:15 pm

Brian,

I would personally like to see the off limits rule implemented especially for Semi-pro team tournaments. I think that if an organization wants to improve their angler turnout they will find that most working stiffs such as myself want to fish their tournaments, but don't have the ability to put in 2-3 days of prefishing during the week before the tournament. Instead I end up just going out fun fishing on the same day and water even though I would much rather fish the tournament.

Sure I'm most likely going to be dead money anyway, but there are a number of people whom are in the same situation that I am and don't participate because of this. Maybe with your help we can change this. DEAD MONEY UNITE!!

Brian Linehan · Post by **Brian Linehan** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 1:30 pm

I'm sure those who live on the Delta or Clear Lake will think differently, but what's fair is fair.

brian stafford · Post by **brian stafford** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 1:38 pm

I think that this will reduce the # of teams in an event. Some teams fish multiple events and some of those events happen during the week (i.e.) Anglers Choice, Stren Bassmasters, etc. This would limit the # of teams that would fish a particular team event if either team partner fished weekday tournaments because they would have fished during the off-limit period.

Brian Linehan · Post by **Brian Linehan** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 1:48 pm

We don't have any big pro/ams down South. Maybe it's a different situation up there. However, are Stren/Bassmasters anglers representative of the majority of team anglers? I wouldn't think so. Team events are basically filler events for most of these guys I would assume. Like I said though, it's probably a lot different in the south.

Cooch · Post by **Cooch** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 2:06 pm

Up here, there indeed are a lot of the locals in a given area, who fish both pro and team events. And many of the Am's in these pro events, are also fishing the teams. So I believe the number is much higher than ya might expect.

I personally like the off limits, but for me, I'd never be able to fish a team tournament on the Delta, as would be the case for other guides who like to join the team events. I'd have to make a choice between income and fishing a tournament, and I think any smart business man knows what my choice will be.

It's a catch 22 I think. I believe the same guys who are winning consistantly now, will continue to do so whether they are out pre fishing or not. An off limits, does not level the playing field really, it tilts the advantage to the local, long time angler who has more experience. Lakes are certainly different than the Delta, you can go Monday and Tuesday, and just about garuntee that any bite ya find that day, will not hold up on Saturday or Sunday, simply due to the tidal changes, springtime with standing. 10 days out or the day before are indeed the best times ta go pre-fish, both which would be outside any prefish off limits rule, so why change here?

Ray L. · Post by **Ray L.** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 9:07 am

I do agree with the off limits thing for team events. In southern Cal we have small lakes while all of you up north have much larger lakes to choose from. We have nothing even close to the size of Shasta at low water. For Southern Cal the off limits should be re instated. I think for Northern Cal it should be done on a lake by lake basis. Folsom Yes off limits, Delta no way. Sonoma yes, Clear Lake no....etc.etc.etc. get the picture.

Tobe · Post by **Tobe** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 11:35 am

Jeff C. · Post by **Jeff C.** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:21 pm

Having a Monday-Thursday off limit period would actually be a disadvantage for a lot of people who still have to work on Fridays. The only way an off limits will help the working man is to have it a full week before the tournament. Otherwise, its better to leave it wide open with no off limits.

Scott Shambre · Post by **Scott Shambre** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:33 pm

I have seen both sides of this arguement and based on the results from last season I can tell you one thing.

ON FOLSOM LAKE, PUTTING AN OFF-LIMITS PERIOD WOULD NOT HAVE MADE ONE BIT OF DIFFERENCE IN THE FINAL OUTCOME!!!!

All FBL events are held on Sunday which allows every team the opportunity to prefish the day before, thus leveling the field. As for beating the water up, Folsom is so pressured anyway that setting an off-limit period would be a waste of ink and paper to put it in the rules. I can only speak for the FBL and Folsom Lake, but the anglers that do good on Folsom are simply good fisherman and could find'em, catch'em & win no matter what.

Scott Shambre
FOLSOM BASS LEAGUE
www.folsombassleague.com
www.rangerboats.com
www.mercury.com
www.okumafishing.com
www.powellco.com (Powell Rods)
www.basscatcher.com (Markey Baits)
www.roboworm.com
Susie's Country Oaks Cafe

Brian Linehan · Post by **Brian Linehan** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:34 pm

How can anyone feel sorry for guides? Do you all know that guides in every other part of the country are held to the same standards as the rest of the competitors. Do you think FLW or BASS gives a hoot that guides can't conduct business during off-limits? Not even guys. If all of you weekend warriors are comfortable donating your money on a weekly basis to the few who guide/ and or fish for a living and then protect them by being so complacent about this rule, you guys are being duped. Team circuits are for the average guy, not the touring pro who can collect easy money.

Jim Conlow Sr. · Post by **Jim Conlow Sr.** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 5:58 pm

I would like to see a poll where the two choices are Monday thtough Thursday and monday through Friday. There are a lot of us who have to work on Fridays to be able to afford to fish tournaments. Also a lot of employers who do not want you missing work that much.
I am one of those employers. If I had an employee who took off an average of one Friday a month I would be looking for a replacement for him

Jim Conlow Sr. · Post by **Jim Conlow Sr.** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 6:08 pm

Just look at the votes. My opinion is though that you should not be able to fish after the Sunday before the tournament.
All of us who are not guides or do not live close to the lake of the tournament have to travel to that lake. If the guy who lives on a lake just cant stand to not be fishing he can go to another lake just like the rest of us would have to do

Jim Conlow Sr. · Post by **Jim Conlow Sr.** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 6:10 pm

Mike · Post by **Mike** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 6:11 pm

I guess the results speak for themself. I agree with you Brian, If the travaling Pro's and Guides stuck to their level of competition and left the Team tournaments to the weekend warrior, we would see bigger turnouts. No one wants to fish against the Dee's,Dobyns, Barrack's and Sapp's in team tournaments. I think the playing field is a little tilted too. But we (the weekend angler) have no where else to go. We cant fish semi Pro or Future Pro curcuits anymore if we ever fished in a pro tournament or make too much money in a given year. So until someone comes up with something in between, we'll just have to keep getting our A$$ kicked and be happy when you just make the money.

Out.

Jim Conlow Sr. · Post by **Jim Conlow Sr.** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 6:15 pm

I really do think it hurts the tournament in the number of entrants that compete.
I think that attendence would go way up if there was no prefishing from the previous Sunday, I also think that it would cut back on the potential for cheating.

Jim

Jim Conlow Sr. · Post by **Jim Conlow Sr.** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 6:18 pm

Whats the deal with super glue? I havent heard about that one

Scott Shambre · Post by **Scott Shambre** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 7:35 pm

Think about this...How many TOURING pro's do we actually have that compete in your average event????

The FBL had no less than 5 Stren Pro's that fished every event and yet our events saw average guys winning all year to include the TOC in May.The FBL had the Bennett brothers out for 2 tournaments and Mike Iaconelli as a competitor in one event, and yet they didn't hamper our "average joe" anglers one bit.

Look at the top ten standings for nearly every organization's individual region and you will find that the "TOURING" pro's DO NOT make up a substantial number of the places. Perhaps they occupy 8-10 places STATEWIDE in every organization in the state. Putting this rule into effect would not hurt these guys at all, THE AVERAGE JOE ANGLER THAT YOU'RE TRYING TO PROTECT BY THIS WOULD BE THE GUY THAT SUFFERS!!!!!

Neither FLW and BASS (other than the BASSMASTERS CLASSIC) has off-limit periods, their prefish is WIDE OPEN as is the Western Stren Series.

Whether it is Folkstad on Southern California Lakes or Dobyns up here, if they want to fish a team tournament so be it, it is my job to find my fish and catch them. So many people want to try to blame these guys for going out and doing some hard work to develope the skills they have and then to think that they should take pitty on us by not showing up so we can have a chance. That is a bunch of BS, do you homework, find your fish and catch them and if they don't weigh enough to win, you didn't work hard enough to catch the right fish.

I have been getting my tail kicked my Johnny Maes on Folsom for years and I continue to learn alot from him all the time. Amazingly enough, I have found myself better able to find better fish on Folsom for that tail kicking.

Basically stated, imposing this type of rule would only hurt the "AVERAGE JOE" tournament angler, not help him.

Scott Shambre
FOLSOM BASS LEAGUE
www.folsombassleague.com
www.rangerboats.com
www.mercury.com
C&C marine Citrus Heights
www.okumafishing.com
www.powellco.com (Powell Rods)
www.basscatcher.com (Markey Baits)
www.roboworm.com
Susie's Country Oaks Cafe

Mike · Post by **Mike** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 7:46 pm

When I said touring Pro's, I meant guys that follow the Pro curcuit here in northeren California! Not the guys that fish for a living. ie:Bass and FLW. I'm talking about the Reese, Doybns, Howell, Mah, Harper, Barrack, Thomas, Tuck, Spence, Staford, Raza, Sapp, Roland, Brazaelle, Hughes, I can go on all night. Check out the results and see how often these names come up?

Fishin' Dave · Post by **Fishin' Dave** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 7:55 pm

Jim,

Those guys were caught on camera down on San Vacente snaging fish, then super glueing scales over the holes to mask the evidence. Believe it or not, it was a father son team.

Scott Shambre · Post by **Scott Shambre** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 8:24 pm

Off all of the names you mentioned here are the ones that showed up in the Season-to-date for each org's standings.

100% Bass Wine Circuit Breazeale 6th in points

Delta Barrack 6th in points
Sapp 18th in points

Ken Mah isn't there, but he did win a boat last
year in the Pro/Am series and placed 8th in the
Delta Stren.

Anglers Choice East Delta Sapp 18th in points

West Delta Thomas 2nd in points
Barrack 21st in points
Sapp 29th in points

Mike Tuck was a 2-time winner at Clear Lake in
the Pro/Am series and is the current point
leader there after 3 events.

WON Bass Delta Mah 21st in points

Vineyard Breazeale 2nd in points

All of the other names you mentioned are no where to be found in the ranks of team tournaments and those that are there are not exactly kicking the "average joes" tails in those respective circuits. The pro's you mentioned may cherry pick a team deal here and there and to me I could care less, some of them are good close friends of mine, but to say that they are taking away from the "average joe" is just ridiculous. These guys fish team events to stay sharp in their game and to enjoy the sport we all love, cut these guys some slack or fish the Future Pro Tour where you're safe from them!!!!!!

Scott Shambre
FOLSOM BASS LEAGUE
www.folsombassleague.com
www.rangerboats.com
www.mercury.com
C&C Marine Citrus Heights
www.okumafishing.com
www.powellco.com (Powell Rods)
www.basscatcher.com (Markey Baits)
www.roboworm.com
Susie's Country Oaks Cafe

Mike · Post by **Mike** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 8:56 pm

You are a idiot! Go back and re-read my post. Where did I say "Average Joe"? Where did say anything about points? And alot of these guys are friends of mine also and I have nothing agaisnt personally, I would just like a more even playing field.

Oh, and when you re-read it. Look where I said where I CANT fish future Pro or Semi Pro and I'm not at the level of the guys I mentioned, so I guess guys like me dont have a place in tournaments! Right?

Lets look at Sapp. Fishes 3 100% Delta tourneys and wins 2 out of the 3 and places in the money in the other. 3 entry fees $900? Wins $11,120. It this fair for the "Average Joe"? Probably not, buy there are no rules against it. So you dont think he has a SLIGHT advantage against the rest of the field??? Wake up Dude.

Lance · Post by **Lance** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 9:38 pm

I'm going to jump in here real quick because I think this topic has turned into a issue of people's stats rather than its original intent. Scott, I really don't see how having an off limits is going to hurt me. I work Monday - Friday from 2pm to 12 am. I drive 54 miles each way to work. When I fish a tournament on Saturday morning I just got off work 3.5 hours prior to signing up. There is NO WAY I can ever compete against someone with so many company names under there name such as yourself, as you can see I don't have any because I fit the definition of a "Average Joe" I'm sorry if I sound short but I'm tired and I just was told to come into work early tomorrow.

Lance

Brian Linehan · Post by **Brian Linehan** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 9:49 pm

Scott,

You've totally missed the point dude. Or else you just like donating money to people who spend 6 consecutive days pre-fishing for a 24 boat tournament that will pay 4 spots. Get my point. I'm not saying that studs like Dobyns, Tuck, or Folkestad dont belong fishing team events. These guys are all my friends and I would love the challenge of competing against them. What I am saying is that by bringing back the off-limits period that was around less than 5 short years ago, it will level the playing field. That's simple logic. There's no reason to point fingers and claim that the majority of us weekend bass fishermen make excuses and despise the "cherry picking" pro's who's stats you seem to know way too much about. No one is attacking anyone. It's all about getting the circuits to actually listen to what we want. They are a service for us. If we are footing the bill to pay their salaries, we should get what we want right? Looking at the poll, it's pretty obvious what we want. Unfortunately, you might not agree Scott, but that's the beauty of a public forum now isn't it?

Marty · Post by **Marty** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 11:28 pm

Ok let me get this straight, are the posting talking about off-limits for team tournaments, draw tournaments or both? I have read both the Northwest and Southwest posting and it seem like some were talking about both while others were talking about just one. Just my option â€“ have the off-limits for the team events and keep it the same way for the draws.

I guess Iâ€™m going to go against the grain and I hope I donâ€™t offend anyone.

In either of the decisions that the tournament organizations come up with I believe both ways are even playing fields because both ways laid out their rules before you lay your money down to compete. Now there is a word â€œCompeteâ€

Kevin · Post by **Kevin** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 11:40 pm

Brian is referring to just the team circuits.

Scott Shambre · Post by **Scott Shambre** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 3:26 am

I don't feel that any org. can do anything to prevent this, so all that we can do is elevate our game and stop crying about how much money so-n-so makes. Make the week off-limits before and Sapp and all those guys you mentioned will still win the same share of the money.

Oh yeah, BTW, the name calling just goes to show how closed minded some people can be when it comes to understanding that there are different viewpoints to every topic and mine is mine and yours is your.

Scott Shambre
FOLSOM BASS LEAGUE
www.folsombassleague.com
www.rangerboats.com
www.mercury.com
C&C Marine Citrus Heights
www.powellco.com (Powell Rods)
www.okumafishing.com
www.basscatcher.com (Markey Baits)
www.roboworm.com
Susie's Country Oaks Cafe

Scott Shambre · Post by **Scott Shambre** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 3:34 am

I work 2PM - 10 PM with Sunday & Monday off. I rarely get a mid-week chance to get out and prefish and when it comes Pro/Am time, I have to arrange time off of work just like every other working stiff.

Where we do differ is that I had to start the Folsom Bass League and have some great friends in the business to be able to develope the contacts to be able to represent the companies I do. That takes up alot of time also which bites into my personal fishing time.

And still I do not feel that I am at a disadvantage when I fish against these guys because I feel it helps to elevate my game. I also understand that off-limits will not be a cure for anything other than hurting the team guy that has to travel 50 - 100 miles to fish a travelling circuit tournament.

Scott Shambre
FOLSOM BASS LEAGUE
www.folsombassleague.com
www.rangerboats.com
www.mercury.com
C&C Marine Citrus Heights
www.okumafishing.com
www.powellco.com (Powell Rods)
www.basscatcher.com (Markey Baits)
www.roboworm.com
Susie's Country Oaks Cafe

dean · Post by **dean** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 3:48 am

Thought I would throw in my line and see what you think.I've been fishing tournements for about 15 years now and under both formats,ie pre-fish-no pre-fish,the way the orginazations run now was an evolutionary process,they did'nt all decide to one day go to open pre-fishing.Both formats have thier advantages and thier disadvantages and both have thier proponants and detractacters.For years I worked all night and then tried to fish tournements the next morning,did'nt win very much and could'nt seem to get everyone to stay up the night before to even the field.For quite a few years I've had to take a day off work to fish a tourney,this is a burden on my fellow employees and my employer,not to mention I start off 180 bucks in the hole before fee's.For the first ten years I cashed an occasional check when we got lucky,did'nt matter how much we pre-fished.For a number of years now we have been competitive and cashing regular checks more often then not,again pre-fishing has'nt mattered.What has mattered is I work and I fish period,no other hobby's,no bowling,no drinking on the weekends,no weekends in tahoe,no roller skating or whatever everybody else is doing,just fish.Now that I'm well over fifty years old I've got the skills to be competitive and still have the drive but my stamina is starting to flag,I can't throw a ripbait for hours and those damn swimbaits will kill me.What ever you do with pre-fishing somebody is going to be unhappy because somebody else is going to have an advantage.Some people work,some don't,etc.Stop looking for an excuse for your lack of dedication ,prefish if you want or not it's up too you or go rollerskating and then on tournement day complain cause someone else went fishing.

Tobe · Post by **Tobe** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 8:00 am

Dewayne · Post by **Dewayne** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 8:14 am

An off limits will not level the playing field. When they still win there will be another excuse. Anytime you have an off-limits it favors those you have years of experience to draw from. They will have a wide selection of spots that work under the particular set of conditions and they will quickly determine the working pattern based on their prior experience.

The Delta Team circuits are one of the toughest around. It's not as much the Barrack, Sapp, Thomas, Tuck, Cuccia, or Dobyns that make it tough, its the dozens of other teams that call the Delta home. Names line Anderson, Youngs, Stitch, Garrigan, Rossetti, Roland, Spense, Schmitt, Swearingen, and a dozen others that fish the Delta 90% of the time are the ones that make it a tough team road.

Many of us have preached this for years, yet many refuse to listen. Fish against the fish! You cannot win if your concern going into a tournament is that Barrack is fishing and he has been guiding all week or that Sapp has showed up. God forbid that Aaron Martin might show up, if he does I guess it is over for sure. The only thing between you and a good finish is a 25# sack of fish. If you catch them, then you have done your part and executed on what you can control. While I seldom fish teams, I deal with the same thing at the Pro/ams. We have Fred Ward who will practice for a month and a dozen others I see pulling into town as I drive home the Sunday a week or two in advance of the tournament. If I let that intimidate me then I will beat myself no matter how well those who have seriously practiced catch the fish. I don't care who you are, you still have to catch the fish. Funny thing is this year my two best tournaments were WON Bass tournaments where I did not really pre-fish.

Off-limits or not I could care less anymore. I have beat big names who have practiced 5 days to my one, and I have been beat by no-names from other states who have just shown up and fished. My concern will be how to catch the fish I need to be competitive and if I do that and get a kicker bite I will cash a check. If I don't catch them then the fact that Bobby spent 20 day this month on the water does not matter a bit.

Now, seriously take a look at how Bobby has done in the 100% Delta Teams this year. He is the one true professional guide that team fishes a lot. As his guide business has taken off his tournament finishes have sunk a little. Now I will bet you a beer or two that you keep him from wearing out his fish on guide trips and his tournament finishes improve. So... do you really want an off limits to "level" the playing field? Remember it will not repair a poor mental approach, there will still be excuses out there.

To sum it up ignore the other competitors and focus on what you can control. Sapp's name will not change with an off-limit period.

Cooch · Post by **Cooch** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 8:15 am

Brain Said:

How can anyone feel sorry for guides?

In no way, was I asking or directing any intentions towards anyone feeling sorry for me as a guide. Much less making a rule change for me cause I'm a guide. Ya better not be stupid enough ta feel sorry fer me, cause I WILL take advantage of ya! HAR! HAR! HAR! Bottom line for me is, screw any tournament org who tells me when I can and can't fish. If there's an off limits, fine by me, I just do not fish that circuit or event and will not be missed.

Brian also said:

This leveled the playing field and seperated the "men from the boys" come Saturday.

I don't git it, if it seperates the men from the boys, how is it a level playing field?

Two points here otherwise. First, the vote shows 56 for, and 18 against the change. Now the question here that you'll need to take to and convince any organization of, is how many of these voters on this poll that voted for the change, are tournament fishermen fishing my circuit? Is a poll on this Forum, gonna give any tournament circuit, an inkling to make a change? I doubt it, these tournament orgs really don't give a hoot about any open poll on this Forum. What they wanna see, is a poll of the angler's fishing their events. Rest assured, that's a bottom line reality.

The second point is and Scott and a few other's touched on this, it is absolutely foolish to think that by implimenting an off limits for team events, that yer leveling the playing field. You absolutely are not doing so. The guys, such as Mike, who claim they are average guys and can't compete, still can't compete. I mean c'mon, it's the pre-fish time that gives these who lack the skills or confidence or ability, to git time on the water, so as to git out there and git some ray of hope that they can find some fish,,,, so they can compete. Take the pre-fish away, what chance do they have against a seasoned veteran who knows the water better than most? Makes no sense, the level playing field is a pipe dream to git an off limits re-instated, because the opposite is true!

I tell ya what I think, this is all a scam by us locals ta git the off limits re-instated! I would love that and feel I would have an absolute, supreme advantage in a team event over every single team in the field. I know this river too well, and can adjust much faster than most, have far more places to explore than most. I'm not the only one casting a YES vote! LOL Hell, I'd give up guiding and could start making money fishin team tournaments again! 3/4 of these guys wouldn't be able to go out and stumble onto a group of fish in the middle of the week. Naw, I'm sorry, that ain't gonna never happen. I have way too much fun guiding, meeting new friends, teachin folks the ins and outs of fishing this River, ClearLake, where ever we go. Then sit back and watch them do well in tournaments and listen to their stories after wards. Priceless, win win fer me! Opening new doors. I just don't git that type of satisfaction out of tournaments any more. Plus, with all the pre-fishin going on, the playin field here is more level than it's ever been! C'mon, with the exception of 100% Bass, with 15-25 boat events, how more level of a playin field could ya ask for?

The votes here may depict what the folks of this board want to see, but the viewers are really blinded by the reality here. And that's just my opinion, hope it works out the best for ya'll!

Calistar · Post by **Calistar** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 8:22 am

When I prepare for a tournament I prefish when I can. I also have a fulltime job and work for the FBL. That takes up a lot of my time, but I still find a way and have cashed the occasional check. If someone works harder than me and wins -- then I say more power to them.

If an Org wouldn't let me prefish, then I wouldn't support that circuit. What it boils down to is *I wanna fish when I wanna fish*.

oh, and when it comes to the topic of competing against the "names"...I love it. It virtually killed me when Ike fished the FBL last year and I couldn't compete. That was maybe a chance in a lifetime to compete against one of the best in the world. Imagine the bragging rights if you could beat him and Bennett. There are 14 FBL teams that know what I am talking about.

Do the work and let the chips fall where they may...

Mike · Post by **Mike** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 8:57 am

Cooch,

My post kind of went off topic with this thread. I know that reinstating the off limits will not level they playing field, I was talking more about where a guy like me could compete against guys in my talent bracket. There is no place for it now. You either have to fish with all of the big guns and donate you $ or fish Semi Pro/Future Pro tournaments. In my case I dont fall into either category. They wont let me fish in the Semi Pro tournaments because I have fished a couple of Pro events 7-8 years ago. Now a days I get about 1-2 days out a month! I really enjoy fishing tournaments, but with my limited time to pre-fish/practice, it is really tough to compete with these guys mentioned. I gues guys like me are A$$ out. There should be somewhere in between Pro Team tournaments and Future Pro tournaments. You would think it would be called "Semi-Pro" But in their rules it says you cant have fished as a pro in a pro-am style tournament. Oh well, I'll just "Shut up & Fish (my 2 days a month) and donate my money to the Sapp retirement fund!

Jim Conlow Sr. · Post by **Jim Conlow Sr.** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 10:59 am

Cooch · Post by **Cooch** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 11:53 am

I hear ya, but disagree in part, yer just not given yerself enough credit! Ya was indeed half of AOY in 100% last year right? And it wasn't long ago ya was AOY with another partner right? My point here is Mike, you got the talent that many of these guys have right here on the river, you just don't have the name exposure. You're competing right where ya should be and are every bit as capable as the rest.

Who ya tryin ta brainwash here? HAR! HAR! HAR! But I'm like you, gotta love the Sapper. He don't win em all, but enough fer the rest of us ta think he does and keep coming back with the hopes of finally beating him!

Scott Shambre · Post by **Scott Shambre** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 12:13 pm

Chris Laskowski · Post by **Chris Laskowski** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 12:21 pm

Maybe it would be a good idea for you to run your own tournament so you can have off limits and pick who you fish against. Good luck

Scott Shambre · Post by **Scott Shambre** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 12:28 pm

NONE of the few that have spoken to thus far have supported having an off-limits period the week before an event.

I see what you're trying to say, but read Dewayne's post above, it is exactly like I tried to say only could not put it as good as he did. And Cooch said it too. Stave Sapp's name doesn't change just because there is an off-limits period, with his expereience on the Delta you could have month off-limits period and he would still be a top five contender. All you have to do is look at the BASS Open events in the late 90's to see that even with a one week off-limits period before those tournaments, Sapp, Lee, Barrack all rose to the top of the field because of their EXPERIENCE plain and simple.

Do you honestly think that if you take Dave Rush or Dobyns off of Oroville for a week before a tournament that they suddenly won't be able to find those fish as quickly? Come on now, use a little common sense and realize that this is nothing more than trying to reel the best anglers in the west down to our level under the guise of "leveling the field". These guys are here and it is up to us to be more proficient at our skills to catch the fish, not to hope that we find them and catch'em before those guys do because we all had the same off-limits period.

Scott Shambre
FOLSOM BASS LEAGUE
www.folsombassleague.com
www.rangerboats.com
www.mercury.com
C&C Marine Citrus Heights
www.okumafishing.com
www.powellco.com (Powell Rods)
www.basscatcher.com (Markey Baits)
www.roboworm.com
Susie's Country Oaks Cafe

Scott Shambre · Post by **Scott Shambre** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 12:48 pm

In 70 words or less, respond to this post and in the message body write a rule the you think would level the field out.

Now Brian, I understand you want to legislate an off-limits period the week before, so make it with some teeth and list the consequenses for those in violation. Be advised, these consequenses have to be defendable in a civil court of law and policeable by the organization that chooses to adopt it.

Mike, as I understand it, you want to legislate the big gun pro and guides out of TEAM tournaments, so in your rule you need to establish guidelines for which to eliminate these anglers from your competitive field. The 100% Bass Semi's and the FPT have their guidelines for eliminating the top notch angler, so you may want to look at theirs and modifiy it a little bit.

If either of these make sense and can work, I'm sure alot of TD's will take a look and see if it can work, I for one will be very interested at what the guys that pay our bills come up with.

Scott Shambre
FOLSOM BASS LEAGUE
www.folsombassleague.com
www.rangerboats.com
www.mercury.com
C&C Marine Citrus Heights
www.okumafishing.com
www.powellco.com (Powell Rods)
www.basscatcher.com (Markey Baits)
www.roboworm.com
Susie's Country Oaks Cafe

Jim Conlow Sr. · Post by **Jim Conlow Sr.** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 1:22 pm

And so do the huge majority of those people who voted in this poll. It does not bother me that there are great players in every sport, but I absolutely know that guy who has 4 or 5 days of practice time has a tremendous advantage over someone who has no practice time at all. Just Like any other sport practice makes you better.
This is an undeniable truth. Even if it only makes him a more accurate caster, it is an advantage. Even if he only locates 10 good places to fish, it is an advantage. Even if he discovers which baits the fish are eating it is an advantage. Even if he discovers what depth the fish are in. I could go on and on but I think almost everyone can see my point. I think that those who will not admit that a guy with more time on the water has an advantage over those who dont have that time, has an agenda different than those of us who want a more level playing field

Fishin' Dave · Post by **Fishin' Dave** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 1:32 pm

[quote="Scott Shambre"]In 70 words or less, respond to this post and in the message body write a rule the you think would level the field out.

Rule: There is to be no fishing on the tournament waters or from the bank starting the Monday preciding the event at 1am until Friday at 1am. Furthermore, any contestant may not be on the tournament body of water in any vessel, flotation devise, or make body contact. Also, no contestant may fly over the body of water or recieve information from ANYONE. Starting Friday at 1am, official practice begins. All tournament rules apply to the official practice. Viliators will be disqualified from the event; no refunds. Proof of viliation can include but not be limited to photos, recipts, sworn testomony, and/or pollygraph test. False accusations will result in event disqualification; no refund. All protests must be submited in writing from a tournament participant.

It took 124 words as 70 left too many loop holes. You asked for it, now put your $$ where your mouth is and adopt it, learn it, use it

Scott Shambre · Post by **Scott Shambre** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 1:44 pm

to see what was come up with, I have no plans to go against the wishes of my participants by restricting when they can go fishing. The FBL has not had nor does it plan to add an off-limit period in any way shape or form. Just my opinion, but for an organization, it is too difficult to police and any protest would still require an independant 3rd party to eliminate the false accusations. More trouble than it is worth to me.

Scott Shambre
FOLSOM BASS LEAGUE
www.folsombassleague.com
www.rangerboats.com
www.mercury.com
C&C Marine Citrus Heights
www.okumafishing.com
www.powellco.com (Powell Rods)
www.basscatcher.com (Markey Baits)
www.roboworm.com
Susie's Country Oaks Cafe

Jim Conlow Sr. · Post by **Jim Conlow Sr.** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 1:52 pm

mac (Doyle McEwen) · Post by **mac (Doyle McEwen)** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 1:59 pm

I don't know Sapp, other than reading about his exploits on this forum..I don't know Dobbyns, Barrack, Rober Lee or Dee Thomas..I do know Cooch and a few of the others I have met at the Rallies and such..There is one thing I know for sure..They all put their clothes on the same as I do..They all know how to catch bass, just as I do..Are they better at it than I am, probably so, at least most of the time..Can I beat them in a tournament, you bet I can..I don't know which one or even where, I just know that it can be done and that I can do it..Of course it might well take 200 or even more tournaments to do it, If I don't want to compete against these individuals, guess what.....I DON"T HAVE TO...But as Dewayne said earlier beating one of them sure makes you feel a lot better about your accomplishment..I look at tournament fishing just as I did at tournament darts..Entering the tournament and playing has to be fun, winning just makes it more fun..

mac

Jim Conlow Sr. · Post by **Jim Conlow Sr.** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:03 pm

Scott
When I was a working carpenter about the 4th time I took a Friday off to go fishing my employer would have found someone who would show up everyday.
I am now the employer and that rule still applies. On those weeks when I do take a friday off I have my guys work 4 ten hour days. which of course makes me have to pay the overtime premium for those extra 2 hours each day, and when I do that my customers and subcontractors usually complaine because I and my crew werent there. Thats the only way I can get even that one day for practice. I am not unique in this situation

Jim

Jim Conlow Sr. · Post by **Jim Conlow Sr.** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:06 pm

Should team tournament organizations bring back a mandatory off limits (Monday-Thursday) period?

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