Tackle Copying Controversy!

Jerkbait0071 · Post by **Jerkbait0071** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:38 pm

You know I normally stay clear of these types of controversial debates, however I do feel the need to express my opinion on the entire debate over the copying of the Revenge head design. Is it really Revenges design that is in question here? Because when I did my OWN research I did not find a paten on this particular head design. When I closely examined both the Revenge head and the Voo-Doo head there are several similarities as well as some very distinct differences. One of the very noticeable differences is the broad thickness of the head. The Revenge head is much slimmer than the Voo-Doo head. Another distinct difference is the molded in trailer keeper. Never the less there are a lot of similarities but also a lot of differences between the two heads. The question at stake here is who designed the lead minnow head. Did Revenge design the lead minnow head? Where did Revenge come up with this idea? Bottom line here is that there will always be similarities in todayâ€™s productive tackle. Take the Senko for instance! Did Tiki baits copy the Senko?
It sure seems there are a lot of similarities between those two. The tackle that is available for us anglers sometimes looks very similar, but serve two entirely different purposes. Now if the tackle company that makes the Voo-Doo lure comes out with a spinnerbait with the exact Revenge minnow head then perhaps there would be a legal or ethical debate, however these are two entirely different baits with two entirely different lead minnow heads. I'm a long time customer of Revenge products, I love there design, I have also purchased the Voo-Doo lure, I'm very happy with both. Now the question I have to ask myself now after reading the forums as an avid bass fisherman and tournament angler is why do the anglers that are sponsored or â€œassociatedâ€

Kelly Ripa · Post by **Kelly Ripa** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:06 pm

I for one will not debate this subject.

Ralph_198 · Post by **Ralph_198** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:26 pm

We should all be happy that Roland's Helicopter Lure was never copied

Brian Linehan · Post by **Brian Linehan** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:28 pm

Finally someone with some sense.

TopH2o · Post by **TopH2o** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 6:23 am

You clearly have to understand the difference in achieving a US Patten and just copying someones elses idea. No one is protected unless you have something pattened bro thats just the way it is. Example my friend Alan Cole got a US Patten on the AC Plug because it was the first time someone combined a plastic tail in direct combination with a wooden plug thats the truth. Example Gary Garlands spent tons of money taking Kaline to court over stealing and coping Garys plastics. Especially when Klain stole the entire Kmart contracts from Gary with a copy of his original mini jigs for 1 cent less. Back then dude that was alot of money. Gary explained to me that he just got a percentage of what Klaine made off the contract. Gary is a very good friend of mine. As far as Ray (Reveange) is consered he is the very last person on this face of the earth to copy anyone. That man has alot of talent and makes all his very own molds for everything he makes. I was with Ray when he approached a certain company and went off on them for copying Andra Moors beaver both of them guys are good friends. So man how many different ways can you make a bait fish head look like on a spinnerbait just look around bro. What about Yamamotos flappin Hog he took it off the market because he didnt want to infringe on the Japanees market not because he was afraid too go to court. Man I could go on for days but I do and always hope for another James Heddon to come along or them 2 brothers in east Texas that started that little crankbait company in there garage called BOMBER.

TopH2o · Post by **TopH2o** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 6:26 am

You clearly have to understand the difference in achieving a US Patten and just copying someones elses idea. No one is protected unless you have something pattened bro thats just the way it is. Example my friend Alan Cole got a US Patten on the AC Plug because it was the first time someone combined a plastic tail in direct combination with a wooden plug thats the truth. Example Gary Garlands spent tons of money taking Kaline to court over stealing and coping Garys plastics. Especially when Klain stole the entire Kmart contracts from Gary with a copy of his original mini jigs for 1 cent less. Back then dude that was alot of money. Gary explained to me that he just got a percentage of what Klaine made off the contract. Gary is a very good friend of mine. As far as Ray (Reveange) is consered he is the very last person on this face of the earth to copy anyone. That man has alot of talent and makes all his very own molds for everything he makes. I was with Ray when he approached a certain company and went off on them for copying Andra Moors beaver both of them guys are good friends. So man how many different ways can you make a bait fish head look like on a spinnerbait just look around bro. What about Yamamotos flappin Hog he took it off the market because he didnt want to infringe on the Japanees market not because he was afraid too go to court. Man I could go on for days but I do and always hope for another James Heddon to come along or them 2 brothers in east Texas that started that little crankbait company in there garage called BOMBER.

hydro · Post by **hydro** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:41 am

I thinks the whole real minnow head design is over rated & more for the fisherman/marketing than the fish . If you break it down a spinnerbait it is a reaction bait that is typically hit by a bass in an ambush point situation in a split second so they don't take a lot of time to look a bait over before striking . Another application is over suspended fish like spots or smallmouth (ala KVD) where the bait is burned just below the surface at a high rate of speed (again not a lot of time to look the bait over) if you slow the bait down where they can get a good look at it they won't bite! Even in a slow roll situation at deeper depths I don't see an advantage to extra realism with a minnow head since with the lower light down there visability is diminished.
Of course I could always be wrong- Hydro

hydro · Post by **hydro** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:42 am

I thinks the whole real minnow head design is over rated & more for the fisherman/marketing than the fish . If you break it down a spinnerbait it is a reaction bait that is typically hit by a bass in an ambush point situation in a split second so they don't take a lot of time to look a bait over before striking . Another application is over suspended fish like spots or smallmouth (ala KVD) where the bait is burned just below the surface at a high rate of speed (again not a lot of time to look the bait over) if you slow the bait down where they can get a good look at it they won't bite! Even in a slow roll situation at deeper depths I don't see an advantage to extra realism with a minnow head since with the lower light down there visability is diminished.
Of course I could always be wrong- Hydro

Jerkbait0071 · Post by **Jerkbait0071** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 10:08 am

I think I was misunderstood! I'm certainly not saying Ray "Revenge" copied anyone! I'm clearly stating that the Voo-Doo bait did not copy Ray's "Revenge" design of his spinnerbait lead head. It is very similar but also very different. I love both baits and will continue to purchase both. All I'm saying is that this should not turn into a tackle manufacturing bashing debate. This should be an adult conversation "non violent" over lunch or a beer like real men do!
Here is the bottom line guys! If you want to make sure that your design is not copied or "stolen" spend the $$$ and make sure that you get a paten. Also make sure that you follow the proper legal steps to avoid these types of situations. Another friendly word of advice is make sure when you began to slander anyoneâ€™s character or business that you are prepared to open your check and shell out the $$$$$$. You can never br to careful these days, everyone is law suit happy!

Jerkbait0071 · Post by **Jerkbait0071** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 10:12 am

Hydro very good point indeed! The lure buys the fisherman not the other way around!

DanWarme · Post by **DanWarme** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 11:09 am

Some points on patent law as I understand it.

1. U.S. Patent is no guarantee of protection. the patent office will search to see if anything similar has been patented already but still is no guarantee that yours is the first and original. All that having a patent does is establishes the assumption that the guy who invented it, would be the first guy to patent it. It is just like copyright in that is registers a timestamp with the government to help establish ownership.

2. You do not need to have a patent to enforce your right to origination and ownership. It just makes it a lot harder to prove you invented something if you do not have a patent. Also opens other issues like did the guy who stole the idea actually have access to it or did he come up with it seperately on his own, yada yada. Its a real field day for lawyers.

3. Just because you did patent something, doesn't guarentee you protection. It is up to you to enforce your patent meaning if someone steals your idea, you have to sue them, the government isn't going to do it for you. You have to foot the bill to protect your patent. That's what caused Herb Reed, inventor of the Sluggo so much grief. Too many people copied it and while he tried to defend it with letters etc. it was just too costly. That combined with the fact that he probably didn't have a real strong patent anyway.

Some other facts about patents:
You can't patent a shape. One of Herb Reed's Problems and presumeably this Revenge issue as well. Reed probably would have had far better success if he had protected the sluggo as a trademark rather than by a patent.

If you alter a design by as little as 10% that is good enough to qualify it as a whole new design and get a whole new patent. So if someone changed the bait holder design on a Revenge bait, that could be enough to prevent you from being successfully sued for patent infringement.

Bottom line is the Tackle industry is loaded with thieves and bandits waiting to cop someone elses designs and hard work. The money available in the industry isn't big enough to fund huge legal expenditures to protect most ideas and most of the copiers out there are just too small to go after because even though you would win, you wouldn't cover your costs afterwards. (assuming you could even collect).

One patent that did work was gene Larew's salted baits. He had a patent on a process, Injected baits with salt in them. He agressively defended the patent going after anyone who tried to put salt in injected baits. Gary Yamamoto did it and paid a royalty to Larew to do so. I believe that patent protection has now expired and Larew can't sue anyone for salting their injected baits.

But still guys found a work-a-round for Larew. Hand pours were not covered by larew's patent because that was not the same as his process which involved injected baits only. One of the big reasons salted handpour worms were so big.

But guys stealing baits. Tons of them.
How many people do you think copied the Gitzit, the Sluggo, the Senko or the Zipper? Its ridiculous. and if you don't defend your patent, you can lose your protection as well. say you make a bait and 100 manufacturers , all small time copy it. Then Berkley copies it. If you try to sue Berkley and haven't gone after the others earlier, chances are Berkley's lawyers could get the patent declared invalid.

Isn't Patent Law fun??? lol