HULL DAMAGE NO COVERED BY PROGRESSIVE

Top'r · Post by **Top'r** » Fri May 02, 2008 6:14 pm

Has anyone had to deal with Progressive Boat Insurance. After 4 years of paying premiums, and no claims at all, I hit a submerged object in Dutch Sl. in the delta in 15 ' of water. Broke a blade of my SS prop, took the paint off the skeg, busted the metal flake off the bottom, both transducers broke free in the bilge, both pump brackets broke free, and the fiberglass on both sides of the bilge has seperated. PROGRESSIVE is saying that it's " manufactures defects " and it's not covered in my policy. My 1995 19' Champion is absolute perfect condition otherwise, New Mercury powerhead, & lowerunit in Janurary, 2 new voltage regulators, & 5 New BFG T/A Radials on 4/17/08. Shop estimate to repair is $12,400.00
Any help dealing with Progressive would be greatly appreciated....Clay Sutterfield

Dan McKenzie · Post by **Dan McKenzie** » Fri May 02, 2008 6:56 pm

I would start first with getting a reputable shop to confirm that IT ISN'T a manufacturers defect. I would present that to the claims adjuster once I had it in writing. They will need to supply you with an experts opinion as to why they feel it is. I'm assuming the damage to the boat clearly shows that you hit something under the surface, if so that is essentially your "proof" that an object sustained the damage to your boat. I think some firms initially reject claims and play a wait and see game, you'll have to fight them and keep the pressure on them. Once you get your boat fixed you really should look at 1-800-bassboat, or Sawyer Cook, an insurer who deals with boats and who has an honest and fair reputation like the ones I mentioned. In my opinion Progressive has been sub par at best (can you tell I'm an EX Progressive customer) This is not an unusual tactic for some insurers, stick to your guns. Remember as feable as our state government is there are a few places you can try and get help, here is a link where you can file a complaint. http://www.insurance.ca.gov/contact-us/ ... complaint/

good luck

Tobe · Post by **Tobe** » Fri May 02, 2008 7:03 pm

You may want to seek out an independent adjuster.
From your description, it seems pretty cut and dry as to the cause.
Keep us posted, I also have Progressive insurance and if this is what I have to look forward to, I may change.

cbwiii · Post by **cbwiii** » Fri May 02, 2008 7:13 pm

Call me at work on Monday. (707) 552-3630 I'm an attorney and happy to give a free consult to a fellow bass fisherman who is having trouble with an insurance company. Be sure and explain that you are responding to my e-mail regarding your bass boat. (My blockers are pretty good)

Here's a link to my bio: www.flgch.com/Bio/CharlesWood.asp

Chuck

Gator · Post by **Gator** » Fri May 02, 2008 7:58 pm

Guys, this is another reason to have a bass fisherman as your primary source for insurance. They understand the in's and out's of bass fishing and won't be so quick to dismiss your claim.

Top'r - give Gayla at Sawyer Cook a call and she will help you out with this. She can't do much from a claims angle as she is not your agent but she can give you some good advice on how to proceed.

Good Luck and definitely take cbw up on his offer, it's always good to have someone who understands the legal lingo in your corner.

kopper_bass · Post by **kopper_bass** » Fri May 02, 2008 9:31 pm

Top'r,
I used to have Progressive and they did me well when i did just what you did. they agreed to replace my whole lower unit; not just the prop. (BTW - since you hit something good, you should have that checked to be sure you didnt bend the shaft).

They also did me well when someone slammed my boat on the freeway and i said i wanted it totaled so i could get a new one; they agreed.

So, not sure why you're having trouble with an otherwise cut&dry situation.

I'll try to look for the progressive adjuster that did mine and send you his name & number. he was very knowledgable with boats and damage to them. i think you should give him a call.

Stay tuned,

Kopper_Bass

ps- As Gator said though, i did switch mine to a group that deals 100% with bass boat insurance. i chose 1-800-bassboat with Stan and Ken.

MIKE TREMONT · Post by **MIKE TREMONT** » Fri May 02, 2008 9:49 pm

That's just the way they(most ins companies) operate at times. We deal with them on a daily basis. As some of the previous posts have stated, get a qualified independent appraisers opinion, then just keep the pressure on them.
It's unfortunate, but it's the way the insurance game is played.

Good luck, and keep us advised.

toefungus_Hog · Post by **toefungus_Hog** » Fri May 02, 2008 10:46 pm

Clay... Being a Insurance agent for 15 years... My first guess. is that you only have a LIAB only policy.. but I dont understand why they would not pay because of a manufac..defect if you hit something.. Progressive would be on the hook for the claim if you hit something in the water and you purchased hull coverage...

Normally they have to send you something in writing stating why they denied your claim. Which you might have rec'd..need more info about your situation to judge on this either way.. So if someone just told you this over the phone ask for their Supervisor.. Also, Make sure you recieved a Claim #.. and adjuster to contact.. then get a letter from them stating the reason for the denial.. which you might have..Im only assuming.. Now if Im right.. first do this..

Look on your Policy and find your Dec. PAGE listing all your coverages. See if you purchased Hull Collision coverage. I dont know how CA works so I might be no help at all right now... but You might just have liability.. Im not defending them in anyway.. just guessing what I think is going on seems really funny and I have seen alot of crazy stuff in 15 years.. But I sell for alot of companies being a independent agent.. and Progressive is by far the fastest when it comes to settling claims and usually very easy to deal with.. I'm only stating my opinion based on the Laws in North Carolina so I could be way off base in CA... The attorney would be a good guy to check with first. But before you call him I would double check my dec pag and make sure you have been paying for Hull Coverage. You might be suprised if you dont have that coverage.. That would be the only reason I could see for Progressive to deny your claim based on our laws in NC. Most States Insurance Laws in the US are very similar. Your laws in CA might be alot different. And I may be way off course with my opinion. Good luck.

Top'r · Post by **Top'r** » Sat May 03, 2008 3:40 am

Thank you ALL very much. Chuck, I'll call you on Monday morning. My POLICY is for FULL REPLACEMENT/PURCHASE COST up to $15,000. I have comp, collision, uninsured boaters, fishing eguiptment, roadside assistance, watercraft liablility, & watercraft property damage. The Claims Adjuster is Bob Ammermen. His field Inspector sent him the Notes saying it was Manufactors Defects, also stating that is the CLEANEST 13 year old boat he'd every seen. Also saying that the prop & lower unit were covered. After talking to Jeff Glow the owner of SMOOTH AS GLASS in Riverbank, he told me the inspector only looked under the boat, and didn't remove the batteries to look down at the bildge. Ammerman had not returned my calls for 2 days, & is out of his office until monday, but said when he gets the FULL written report he will write a report & send it to his Managers. When I originally made the claim he told me & wrote me an Email saying it was a " NOT AT FAULT " collision. Now It's as if they know the boat reairs exceed the value of the insurance, and they are trying to save themselves the loss of having to fix my girl, or pay me off. So much work to do in front of me. I'm very lucky to have a partner that has a boat too. We'll be finishing the 100% bass tournament season in his boat, and hopefully hold onto 8th place. Thank you ALL again.... Clay

MIKE VAN WAGNER · Post by **MIKE VAN WAGNER** » Sat May 03, 2008 7:15 am

Contact Bob Bragg and set up a time to have him look at your boat. He will be able to tell the insurance company if it is Manufacture defect or Impact. Braggs Marine Fibergalss repair. 530-244-2545.

Mike Van Wagner
Capitol City Marine
916-729-0590

TTCal · Post by **TTCal** » Sat May 03, 2008 7:28 am

Clay, best of luck with the claim.. hope it works out. Thanks for posting your story as well as I'm with Progressive but have now sent in a request for quote with Sawyer Cook.

Bill kizer · Post by **Bill kizer** » Sat May 03, 2008 9:20 am

I hope i don't upset anyone with my question.

But, after reading this post about boat coverage and being denied. What is Hull insurance? Is it an add on or what?

I checked my Foremost policy and all it says is; Coverage A, Actual cash value.

I'd call my agent but it's the weekend and he's closed.

Just call me Tule Bender

If you knew how I got my nick name, you'd know why I'm very curious.

MikeD · Post by **MikeD** » Sat May 03, 2008 10:45 am

do some hunting around on ACV (actual cash value), it can be a mess to try to collect the amount you think the thing is worth vs what they will offer you. lots of horror stories on the web about ACV settlements.

we totaled a car over the winter and had to deal with CSAAA and negotiate a settlement with them on an ACV claim. be prepared to spent more than a few hours doing research and presenting your claim numbers, in no way is it a quick process, you'll want to hunker down for a long haul, this is the insurance companies strategy to help keep their payouts low - if they drag it out long enough you'll take a low value.

Gary Dobyns · Post by **Gary Dobyns** » Sat May 03, 2008 9:28 pm

Bob Bragg is the best in the business. His prices are CHEAP, he does the best work, and on top of that he is one of the nicest people you will ever meet. Well worth the trip to Anderson.

Big Ed · Post by **Big Ed** » Sat May 03, 2008 10:01 pm

Clay;

Please let us know how this whole thing pans out.

Im sure many of the Westernbass readers including myself have progressive insurance and want to know how well they will work on your claim. My coverage sounds almost identical to yours. I too may decide to move to another insurance if they dont treat you like they should!

Thanks; Big Ed!

NoCAL · Post by **NoCAL** » Sun May 04, 2008 8:18 am

Progressive has covered two claims for me on my previous boat. Neither was my fault and one ran up into the $4000 range. They have always been quick getting repairs started and very understanding of getting me back on the water. I will also recommend getting Bob Bragg to look at your boat and the damage. He will be able to tell right away if the damage was caused by your collision or something else.

NoCAL

Mikey · Post by **Mikey** » Sun May 04, 2008 6:32 pm

For what its worth I'll share my experience with Progressive. I put a new optimax on my boat this winter and I called to up my boats value so if I have an accident I could recover the value. Well the person on the phone charged me more money for the premium and took my credit card info and as I was talking to him I finally pried out of him that I was actually GIVING them extra money for nothing. He told me that if my boat was totaled it would be paid on a bluebook value......so why did I give him extra money? I then paid more money to have an actual 20,000 in coverage for my boat. I have been told that its better to have anyone BUT Progressive by my local boat dealer...they say its always a battle to get a check from Progressive on claims fixed in their shop. My two cents would be talk to your local boat dealer you have a relationship with and find out which companies process claims without hassles.

Ken C. · Post by **Ken C.** » Sun May 04, 2008 7:15 pm

So has anyone ever had an "agreed value" claim with Progressive or other vendors? And how did that go for you?

kopper_bass · Post by **kopper_bass** » Sun May 04, 2008 9:22 pm

Ken,I
I had to go and look this up, just to get it right. surprised that i still have all the documents.

In March of 2005 I had a Progressive policy with the "Agreed Value" of 16K on my 1996 Skeeter.

When i got t-boned and totaled both my truck and boat on Hwy 4 (some guys may remember seeing me sitting on the hwy with my boat splattered on the road - ugh

), Progressive estimated the replacement cost (based on 3 for sale boats comparable in the CA area) to be about $16,700 dollars. So, they obviously took the 16K as my value and subtracted the $250 deductible.

I got a check for $15,750 in less than 5 days; no questions or hassles.

It worked for me, but as always, other people have had lesser experience. I should have had a little more value on my boat and i could've gotten that extra 700 bucks or so, but they said i was one of the rare few people that had their value pretty dialed in. most people pay way too much for over-inflated value, or way too little and get nothing back.

Kopper_Bass

Ken C. · Post by **Ken C.** » Mon May 05, 2008 9:53 am

H-m-m-m, , , So what happens when you buy a new boat for say 35K and you have the full-coverage, agreed value policy on the boat. The boat is now say 5 years old, and gets totaled somehow or even stolen. Are they going to base their coverage on the value of the now 5 year-old boat or are they going to stick to the agreed value? I am pretty sure my "agreed value" policy has a no depreciation clause included in it.

BTW Kopper, when your boat got splattered on the freeway (was that on west bound 4 around Pittsburg? I think I remember seing that one...) didn't the other driver's insurance cover your loss, or was it the typical California under/un-insured vehicle?

MikeD · Post by **MikeD** » Mon May 05, 2008 12:51 pm

hey Ken, from an automotive claim perspective we dealt with the other parties insurance company (CSAAA) who in turn hires a 3rd party firm to provide them with "comparable" vehicles that are for sale on the dealer lot, in the newspapers, and some smattering of online ads.

I say "comparable" because it was nowhere near - our car body/interior were in great shape but I ended up telling the insurance company to give me the list that they were working off of and then I called the dealerships and asked about condtion and mileage, we knocked about 6-7 of the 20 lower priced cars off the list right away ("big dent in fender, needs new tires" - "paint peeling" - etc) when I called the ins co back and explained to them the error of their ways.

Not sure how agreed value would work in your case.

kopper_bass · Post by **kopper_bass** » Mon May 05, 2008 12:57 pm

Ken,
From my limited experience, all of them have some sort of depreciated value clause.

With Progressive policy, it clearly states that the "agreed value" is paid or the "replacement cost"; whichever is less. In my case the "agreed value" was a few hundred less than the cost to replace it, so they gave me my total "agreed value".

In your scenario it will likely be the other way around. They are going to look at comparable boats for sale on the market and see that a 5yr old boat doesnt sell for 32K, but say 28K, so thats all your going to get.

Yes, that was me on Hwy 4 West, near Pittsburgh. To this day, i am really spooked driving that way. As is always the case, i got my money quick from Progressive and let them worry about getting re-imbursed from the other driver's insurance company. 3 vehicles involved. the other 2 split the responsibility of the cost for my losses.

Kopper_Bass

Slippy · Post by **Slippy** » Mon May 05, 2008 2:18 pm

Gator wrote:Guys, this is another reason to have a bass fisherman as your primary source for insurance. They understand the in's and out's of bass fishing and won't be so quick to dismiss your claim.

Top'r - give Gayla at Sawyer Cook a call and she will help you out with this. She can't do much from a claims angle as she is not your agent but she can give you some good advice on how to proceed.

Good Luck and definitely take cbw up on his offer, it's always good to have someone who understands the legal lingo in your corner.

progressive's add's are in the Bassmaster mag so i would think they would know about bass fishing???

Gator · Post by **Gator** » Mon May 05, 2008 2:48 pm

not really slip......they know how to advertise, but their claims people and phone support may not have any idea about what is entailed in bass fishing. That's why I support those who are anglers and insurance people. I am sponsored by Sawyer Cook but even if someone choose not to go with them, I'd recommend the Vanderburgs next. These people love fishing, understand what happens in a bass boat and will help you out in regard to claims.

Ken C. · Post by **Ken C.** » Mon May 05, 2008 3:59 pm

MikeD wrote: who in turn hires a 3rd party firm to provide them with "comparable" vehicles that are for sale on the dealer lot, in the newspapers, and some smattering of online ads.

I just went through that with Jason's Ranger truck. The 3rd party company (that I believe by the way also owns CoPart, the worlds biggest auto recycler/auction center) listed a line of "comps" that did not even exist. When I called them on it all of the sudden their settlement offer went up substantially so that it was at least close to what it should have been right off the bat!

kopper_bass · Post by **kopper_bass** » Mon May 05, 2008 6:31 pm

Yeah definitely,
even though my comparable numbers came back at or above my expected value, i asked for the list and went thru it in detail. i also knocked off a few low end boats that werent even close, so as to keep the average high.

honestly though, they seemed to be OK with that.

Kopper_Bass

mark poulson · Post by **mark poulson** » Mon May 05, 2008 7:19 pm

I had my five year old Tracker and trailer totaled by a hit and run driver on the freeway last March 1, a Sunday.
I called my insurance agent, Gayla King with Sawyer Cook, the next day.
She told me to have my boat, which I'd had towed to my home, towed again to Anglers Marine, where I'd bought it, to be evaluated.
The insurance company, International Marine Underwriters, had a Marine Surveyor check the boat there.
They agreed it was totaled, and I got the amount of my insurance less the $300 deductable.
The process has been totally painless and fast, and I'm going in tomorrow to replace the trolling motor, which was also damaged but not seen in the initial investigation.
The insurance co. is paying for the tm, the receiver which got bent, and has already paid me for the two different tows.
I'm now in a new Ranger 177 TR, thanks to the quick payment, and the great deal Rick Grover at Anglers made me.

Slippy · Post by **Slippy** » Tue May 06, 2008 10:14 am

im going to look into changing from Progressive to Sawyer Cook when my policy expires.

Chad L. Dwyer · Post by **Chad L. Dwyer** » Tue May 06, 2008 1:59 pm

Your title of this post is misleading to most who do not understand insurance. Hull damage is in fact a covered item (if purchased) on your boat policy however, the "peril" or type of loss is what seems to have everyone in an uproar.

Collision would normally be covered if that coverage had been purchased (looks like you did). Damage as a result of a manufacturers defect and/or de-lamination is not. Based on what you have reported, Progressive is denying this hull damage due to an uncovered peril (defect).

As previously recommended, Bob Bragg will be able to assist you in getting to the real "root" of the problem.

Pursue this and don't just roll-over for them.

Good luck.

Ken C. · Post by **Ken C.** » Tue May 06, 2008 3:36 pm

Chad,

How does it work then if you have collision damage coverage, you hit a submerged object and the impact causes a delamination - which is not an uncommon result of a impact with fiberglass since it can only flex so far before it starts to come apart. Is the insurance carrier going to then claim that it is a manufacturing problem because of the delamination?

I'm not in any uproar over this, I just have never known anyone who has had to deal with a boat insurer and having been on the receiving end of the insurance "SHAFT" too many times already in my life for other things I just am trying to get a feel for how the"claims deniers", er adjusters go about denying claims or decreasing payouts for boats...

Chad L. Dwyer · Post by **Chad L. Dwyer** » Tue May 06, 2008 4:50 pm

Ken,

Uproar may have been the wrong word...today feels like Monday

.

Basically all this person is having an issue with, is weather this is or is not a covered loss with the main underlying factor being the "peril" (type of loss, if there was a covered loss).

This happens quite frequently. Take a homeowners policy for example. Sudden water damage is a covered loss but water damage that has resulted from lack of maintenance or proper upkeep is not. It's all water damage and often, to the eye of the policy holder, water damage is water damage no matter how far out of repair they let it go.

This case appears to be similar. Most who will read this post might automatically hear of a collision with a log and jump on the "I hate insurance companies band wagon" and demand that coverage be afforded.

I am not saying that I agree with this particular adjuster in any way. All I am saying is that an insurance company knows better than to simply deny a claim because they think they can get away with it by way of blaming it on the manufacturer/defect.

Again, that is why so many have recommended Mr. Bragg. He has extensive knowledge in the area of boat repair. If this gentleman takes his boat to Mr. Bragg and he agrees that it is a manufacturer's defect, then that will need to be taken up with them (the builder). If not, the insured has someone with great experience on his side to pursue this issue.

If it was my boat, I'd be headed North (Bob Bragg's).

I hope I helped you.

Ken C. · Post by **Ken C.** » Tue May 06, 2008 7:57 pm

Thanks Chad for your info. Any insight is good information to have!

Now I just want to hear from Clay to find out exactly what is happening with his claim...

younto · Post by **younto** » Wed May 07, 2008 8:40 am

Hey top'r,
No insurance recommendations for ya but want you to know I feel some of your pain.
My boat was down a couple of years ago for an engine rebuild...ouch. During that time I convulsed several times due to fishing withdrawals. Would hate see you do the same.
So, if you need a bass fix during boat repairs, contact me and I'll set you in the backseat on Clear Lake.
Might even give you a turn on the trolling motor...as long as you aren't outfishing me !!
PM me if younto,
Randall

Top'r · Post by **Top'r** » Wed May 07, 2008 9:19 am

A VERY HEART FELT THANKS TO... CBW, Gator, Kopper, Mike T., Toefungus, Mike V. W. , Big Ed, Gary Dobins..and everyone that has responded to my posts. I just finished a recorded phone call with Progressive as to ALL of the particulars of my collision, / impact. The Claim is still under revue at this time. I've spoken with CBWiii, Gayla King, Bob Bragg, & ALL of the suggested parties from everyone that replied. The ball is in Progressives court at this time, but I feel so much more confident with help you all have given me. I'll definately post the outcome when it's finalized...Clay

Top'r · Post by **Top'r** » Tue May 13, 2008 8:29 am

UPDATE!!!! 5/13/08.. PROGRESSIVE is still saying that the damage is due to "HULL FATIGUE / DELAMINATION / MANUFACTURES DEFECTS" & not a collision or impact. I'm on my way this morning to pick up my boat from the shop in Riverbank, and then driving it to Bob Bragg's in Anderson as suggested. He is going to be doing an IMPARTIAL inspection / estimate, and also drilling a hole in the bottom to measure the thickness of the fiberglass. Then he'll get the specs from Champion on my boat. PROGRESSIVE wanted their shop in Riverbank to cut a section out of the bottom. I told them I was not comfortable with ALL of the delays, and the service I was getting, and I was taking it to Bob Bragg's. YES !!!!! I'm still fighting, and the Bulldog in me is about to show his UGLY side...Clay

Chad L. Dwyer · Post by **Chad L. Dwyer** » Tue May 13, 2008 8:49 am

What findings do they have to substantiate their denial?

stan vanderburg · Post by **stan vanderburg** » Tue May 13, 2008 10:32 am

Top r
Did what ever you hit take a chunk of the gel or glass out of the bottom of your boat in that location? There should be evidence of the colision. I m with Mike ,Gary, and the rest. Have Bragg look at it. They have done a ton of work for us and it has always been quality. I will be watching with interest.

Stan Vanderburg
800 BASSBOAT

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