Spotted bass caught at Pardee Friday!

Larry Hemphill · Post by **Larry Hemphill** » Sat May 08, 2010 8:46 pm

If you are interested, I posted a fishing report for Pardee which included the first spotted bass I have ever seen at Pardee. Rick Tietz caught it Friday afternoon as we were targeting smallies.

jimmy87 · Post by **jimmy87** » Sat May 08, 2010 8:50 pm

was it the ONLY one? how big was it?

Steve · Post by **Steve** » Sun May 09, 2010 1:31 am

I can say with conviction that spotted bass indeed are in Pardee, and they have been for longer than most people want to believe. I can also say with certainty that many of those big smallmouth indeed are hybrids. The argument for their absence was that those that have fished the lake for many years have never caught one. I dont know what to say to that other than I find that odd.

BassManDan · Post by **BassManDan** » Sun May 09, 2010 7:47 am

So Steve, you're suggesting that those 9 lb. "smallies" are really 9 lb. meanmouths...

I hope your being intentionally provocative

Although I do agree with the spotted bass presence, pretty much on the basis of "how could they NOT be there?"

Rich hamilton · Post by **Rich hamilton** » Sun May 09, 2010 10:43 am

There goes the neighborhood Larry

God them northerns and smallies are purty in that lake!

Steve · Post by **Steve** » Sun May 09, 2010 2:14 pm

BassManDan wrote:So Steve, you're suggesting that those 9 lb. "smallies" are really 9 lb. meanmouths...

Thats exactly what Im saying, not suggesting.

BassManDan · Post by **BassManDan** » Sun May 09, 2010 2:41 pm

Alright man, don't sugar coat it and tell us how you really feel

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the state record "smallie" from Pardee confirmed by genetic assay as 100% smallmouth, no if's and's or but's?

Steve · Post by **Steve** » Sun May 09, 2010 3:42 pm

BassManDan wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the state record "smallie" from Pardee confirmed by genetic assay as 100% smallmouth, no if's and's or but's?

Im correcting you

Larry Hemphill · Post by **Larry Hemphill** » Sun May 09, 2010 5:04 pm

Larry Hemphill · Post by **Larry Hemphill** » Sun May 09, 2010 5:16 pm

I saw the new lake record smallie from Pardee and she seemed to be 100% smallie. So was the previous lake record smallie. If you get a copy of the latest issue of BassWestUSA (Mar-Apr) and look at my guide article, you will see me holding a pure smallie from Pardee - vertical bars all the way to the tail. No sign of the spotted bass black stripe near the tail that will show on a hybrid.

wg274 · Post by **wg274** » Sun May 09, 2010 7:16 pm

If spots can cross breed with them smallies than what about them
Pardee Northern LMB's? Can't they also cross breed??

Last year I went to several Pardee T weigh-ins and every so often
a spot would show. It's just a good thing them spots don't reproduce
like them Pardee Kokes do!

BassManDan · Post by **BassManDan** » Mon May 10, 2010 5:55 am

[quote="wg274"]

If spots can cross breed with them smallies than what about them
Pardee Northern LMB's? Can't they also cross breed??

Last year I went to several Pardee T weigh-ins and every so often
a spot would show. It's just a good thing them spots don't reproduce
like them Pardee Kokes do![/quote]

Spots and smallies are closely related (evolutionarily), while largemouth are on a separate brank of the "sunfish family tree", so to answer your question; NO, largemouth don't hybridize with smallies (I'm sure it has happened somewhere in the course of history, but obviously they did not produce a persistent hybrid species).

What you might consider in your question "Why haven't the spots taken over?", compare Pardee to Oroville. Pardee does not suffer the drastic water level fluctuations like Oroville. I believe that this is an important factor in the success of spotted bass (or more correctly, the failure of largemouth and smallmouth) in many of northern CA's reservoirs.

Some food for thought.

Larry Hemphill · Post by **Larry Hemphill** » Mon May 10, 2010 12:31 pm

I totally agree with your comments. Take my home lake - Collins - for example. When I started fishing it in 1975 - largemouth and smallmouth were it. Then the spots were introduced in the 80's and within 10 years the smallies were done. They didn't even last long enough to create many hybrids. The largemouth population really hasn't changed much at all in the past 30 years - except some are bigger!!

wg274 · Post by **wg274** » Tue May 11, 2010 10:08 am

I also agree with your comments but this article got me thinking.
I know them Pardee smallies spawn during the same time as them northerns.

Section of article that got my attention:

In nearly all cases of hybridization outside the lab, smallmouth have been involved. Geneticist Dr. Dave Philipp, colleague of the late Dr. Childers, noted that fertilization of largemouth bass eggs with smallmouth sperm resulted in more successful crosses than the reciprocal cross (largemouth male and female smallie). The aggressive male smallmouth bass may be an instigator when introduced into waters outside its natural range where spawning sites are limited, or in altered habitats such as reservoirs.

When smallies were added to newly constructed Squaw Creek Reservoir in Texas, they soon hybridized and backcrossed with both northern and Florida subspecies of largemouths that were already in the impoundment. In 1993, Rich Fry caught an 8-pound 3-ounce bass from a Pennsylvania mine pit that was genetically identified as a first-generation hybrid of a largemouth and a smallmouth bass.
[url]http://www.in-fisherman.com/content/hyb ... k-bass[url][/b]

Steve · Post by **Steve** » Tue May 11, 2010 11:09 am

Well, I wasnt gonna say anything but the fact is there have been plenty of documented smallmouth/largemouth hybrids. And at least one knowledgeable, reputable professional that I know suggested that some of the large "smallmouth" that have come out of Pardee appeared to him to be smallmouth/largemouth hybrids. I am not knowledgeable or experienced when it comes to small/large hybrids so I cant comment on that. I can say that I once watched a smallmouth and largemouth spawning together at Pardee, but I only saw that once.

BassManDan · Post by **BassManDan** » Tue May 11, 2010 11:20 am

Small/Large cross, that's new to me.

My question is; If it is seemingly possible, then why is it not seen more regularly, especially locations where only largemouth and smallmouth are present, i.e. Trinity?
I would suspect that the hybridization rate would at least be measurable, perhaps less than spot/smallie hybrids, but it seems to me like there would at least be more than a few documented cases.
Obviously, if the average angler has no idea that they caught a hybrid, it wouldn't be reported, and considering that such a genetic survey of hybridization has not been done....any fish geneticists need a good idea for a PhD study??

Interesting topic nonetheless.

Steve · Post by **Steve** » Tue May 11, 2010 12:06 pm

Dan

I have no idea what the frequency of hybridization between the two species is. But as Im sure you are aware it likely differs greatly from system to system and region to region. Would you know a small/large hybrid if you saw one? I dont think I would. I do know that in my travels in CA I see Micropterus sp. all the time that look slightly to very odd, none of which I would ever try to positively identify.

And who knows what biotic and abiotic factors influence the frequency of hybridization. Im no expert on hybridization or what triggers the occurence, but maybe those "conditions" arent present at Trinity. Then again, maybe they are. Ive seen some odd looking bass there as well.

If you want some references concerning documented small/large hybrid events, let me know.

bassmonster · Post by **bassmonster** » Tue May 11, 2010 12:10 pm

The big one Alan fong caught was a LM SM hybrid..just look at it!

mark poulson · Post by **mark poulson** » Tue May 11, 2010 12:15 pm

It's all the hormones in the fast food. Yeah, that's the ticket!

Or some tweeker peeing in the water upstream.

S. Bailey · Post by **S. Bailey** » Tue May 11, 2010 4:08 pm

im not sure whos right but im going with steve. All I know is lake havasu is full of largemouth/smallmouth hybrids. I see them spawn together hundreds of times throughout the spring. And we catch numbers of big hybrids here. I caught a 5.4 hybrid last year with a birthmark and a buddy caught it one year later and it was 5.7 pounds. They are def mean mouths.