Hypothetical situation poll

bryanmc · Post by **bryanmc** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:49 pm

With all this talk about the difference between rule violations and cheating, think about this purely hypothetical situation... I have thought about this and I know what I think... What does everyone else think.

Let's say a team comes in for the weigh in with 6 fish in the livewell. Tournament rules state that you can only have 5 fish and must immediately cull upon catching your 6th fish. Failure to do so will result in a DQ. There are 2 anglers in the boat, so no state possession laws were violated.

The anglers choose to ignore the 6th fish, and no one else knows about the "extra" fish in the livewell. They weigh in their best 5 and win the tournament.

ASD · Post by **ASD** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 1:18 pm

My .02

If you know that a 6th fish is in the well you dump all 6 over the side and do not weigh any of them as a rule was violated and you are DQed

Rod Martin · Post by **Rod Martin** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 1:45 pm

Schneider Fishing · Post by **Schneider Fishing** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 1:45 pm

Mistakenly checking in with fish number 6 in the live well is a mistake that gets you DQ'd; opps.

Purposely weighing in 5 fish knowing number 6 is in the well and hoping not to get caught is cheating.

The difference is between a mistake and intent.

IMHO

Brian D. · Post by **Brian D.** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 2:02 pm

come on now.. unfair poll and heavily biased. Either option is wrong.

bryanmc · Post by **bryanmc** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 2:19 pm

Brian D. wrote:come on now.. unfair poll and heavily biased. Either option is wrong.

Explain your opinion. The argument has come up that, since the 6th fish was no advantage to the anglers (like stuffing lead weights in the fish) that it's a mere rule infraction and not cheating. I'm just looking for everyone's opinion.

BTW... I wanted a 3rd option "It's a stupid rule so it shouldn't matter", but I couldn't get it in there for some reason.

stickbait · Post by **stickbait** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 3:21 pm

Schneider Fishing wrote:Mistakenly checking in with fish number 6 in the live well is a mistake that gets you DQ'd; opps.

Purposely weighing in 5 fish knowing number 6 is in the well and hoping not to get caught is cheating.

The difference is between a mistake and intent.

IMHO

ding ding ding.. we have a winner!!!

Now the next question.. at what point was the DQ asked for.. after he was called on it and had already weighted .. or did he offer up and ask for at weight in.. ???

Both Pro and Am are responsible for knowing the rules , the Am should have said something too !

Turkeyman · Post by **Turkeyman** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 3:31 pm

What if you realize that you have 6 fish and leave the biggest fish in the livewell? Would this still be wrong?

Byron · Post by **Byron** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 3:57 pm

This whole pole is crap. A 6th fish is in no way cheating - you can only weigh 5 anyway. There is absolutly no advantage to the 6th fish in the well. It is a rule violation at best. In order to cheat you must do something against the rules to your advantage.

cull25 · Post by **cull25** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 4:01 pm

ASD wrote:My .02

If you know that a 6th fish is in the well you dump all 6 over the side and do not weigh any of them as a rule was violated and you are DQed

I agree and yes sh*t happens. The best you can do is be aware. I never have six in the well, even when culling. I remove my smallest and then place the new fish in. I do this just to be careful. Culling can take time and this makes me nervous at times, but if you are diligent in knowing what is in the livewell it speeds up the process. Someone already metioned intent.

Fish weights and length can change in the livewell and if someone had intentions of doing this, it is cheating. Especially since you say the rules for the tournament call for culling imediately of the sixth fish.

whatabunchofidiots · Post by **whatabunchofidiots** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 4:12 pm

How about at least let them keep the points they would have gotten for the weight. Still DQ and no awards or money though.

bryanmc · Post by **bryanmc** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 4:37 pm

Byron wrote:In order to cheat you must do something against the rules to your advantage.

Something like... maybe not stepping forward when you know you did something to be dq'd? Like hoping that no one sees that 6th fish? Would that not be to your advantage?

bryanmc · Post by **bryanmc** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 4:40 pm

stickbait wrote: ding ding ding.. we have a winner!!!

Now the next question.. at what point was the DQ asked for.. after he was called on it and had already weighted .. or did he offer up and ask for at weight in.. ???

This has nothing to do with the AC situation. What happened there was what raised the question in my mind, but was in now way meant to rehash that situation.

stickbait · Post by **stickbait** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 4:45 pm

bryanmc wrote:
stickbait wrote: ding ding ding.. we have a winner!!!

Now the next question.. at what point was the DQ asked for.. after he was called on it and had already weighted .. or did he offer up and ask for at weight in.. ???
This has nothing to do with the AC situation. What happened there was what raised the question in my mind, but was in now way meant to rehash that situation.

Ya right ....sure

bryanmc · Post by **bryanmc** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 4:51 pm

Actually, you're wrong. But feel free to think whatever makes you feel good.

Mark Hiser · Post by **Mark Hiser** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 4:54 pm

This has nothing to do with the AC situation. What happened there was what raised the question in my mind, but was in now way meant to rehash that situation.

Are YOU really trying to sell that??????

I'm calling your wife and gettin you some more chores........ your spendin too much time on the soap opera network, looks like your tryin for a starring role

Mark

bryanmc · Post by **bryanmc** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 5:00 pm

Yup... straight up truth. Since no one knows what Mark's intent was, it would be foolish to speculate. And, since other people saw the extra fish before he ever went to the scales, it's a completely different situation. In my scenario, the only guys who know there's an extra fish is the team that brought it in.

Mark Hiser · Post by **Mark Hiser** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 5:11 pm

Well, in that case, it might have been a little too soon to put up poll that so closely mimics the drama hashed here for the last couple days. At least if you TRULY wanted to ask such a question.

Like maybe at least let the other fall off the front page?????

Otherwise, the perception ( and you know that's a real thing) is probably gonna lead exactly where it has.

Good luck on the sale

mark

Long Nguyen · Post by **Long Nguyen** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 5:24 pm

Byron wrote:There is absolutly no advantage to the 6th fish in the well. It is a rule violation at best. In order to cheat you must do something against the rules to your advantage.

Byron, let me toss a hypothetical scenario.

Say you're in your boat on a point and I'm on the other side of the point in my boat and we're both casting to a group of schooling bass. Let's also assume you and I both have 5 bass in our well.

If what you're saying is true...I catch #6 and toss it in the well and hop back up to the front to fire out another cast. You catch #6 and start the culling process. You can't make another cast for a few minutes at best.

On the next cast, I catch a 5 or 6lber and end up winning or placing higher in the derby than you.

Do you still think there's no advantage for having 6 fish in the boat?

Leon Pugh · Post by **Leon Pugh** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 5:50 pm

Long you bring up a very good point, which is exactly why the rule needs to be changed. A D.Q. is to harsh a penalty. What many are missing also is the rules state you are subject to D.Q. Which means to me that it is the TD's decision to make a penalty call. I think it would be more reasonable to cull the largest fish. If a attempt to hide it was made then a D.Q.

Trackerbass · Post by **Trackerbass** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 6:16 pm

Leon Pugh wrote:Long you bring up a very good point, which is exactly why the rule needs to be changed. A D.Q. is to harsh a penalty. What many are missing also is the rules state you are subject to D.Q. Which means to me that it is the TD's decision to make a penalty call. I think it would be more reasonable to cull the largest fish. If a attempt to hide it was made then a D.Q.

If an attempt to hide it was made, it's CHEATING !!

Mike · Post by **Mike** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 6:47 pm

Byron wrote:This whole pole is crap. A 6th fish is in no way cheating - you can only weigh 5 anyway. There is absolutly no advantage to the 6th fish in the well. It is a rule violation at best. In order to cheat you must do something against the rules to your advantage.

Someone call FLW and tell them they owe me some Money!!

ken · Post by **ken** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 6:54 pm

It is only cheating if an attempt is made to gain an advantage over the other competitors.
For example if you keep 6 fish and one is dead and then weigh the five live ones.
All this being said it is darn easy to lose count if the bite gets hot.

stickbait · Post by **stickbait** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 7:02 pm

Mike wrote:
Byron wrote:This whole pole is crap. A 6th fish is in no way cheating - you can only weigh 5 anyway. There is absolutly no advantage to the 6th fish in the well. It is a rule violation at best. In order to cheat you must do something against the rules to your advantage.

Someone call FLW and tell them they owe me some Money!!

your finger broke...

But I think there is a difference when ya dump all six in the tub...

stickbait · Post by **stickbait** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 7:06 pm

ken wrote: All this being said it is darn easy to lose count if the bite gets hot.

Not really.. carry 5 culling floats.. if ya got more fish than floats, ya got a problem..

Mike · Post by **Mike** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 7:19 pm

stickbait wrote:
Mike wrote:
Byron wrote:This whole pole is crap. A 6th fish is in no way cheating - you can only weigh 5 anyway. There is absolutly no advantage to the 6th fish in the well. It is a rule violation at best. In order to cheat you must do something against the rules to your advantage.

Someone call FLW and tell them they owe me some Money!!
your finger broke... But I think there is a difference when ya dump all six in the tub...

Exactly. Bringing 6 to the tub is a mistake. Leaving one in the live well and trying to weigh the other 5 is Cheating.

stickbait · Post by **stickbait** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 7:37 pm

Mike wrote:
stickbait wrote:
Mike wrote:
Someone call FLW and tell them they owe me some Money!!
your finger broke... But I think there is a difference when ya dump all six in the tub...

Exactly. Bringing 6 to the tub is a mistake. Leaving one in the live well and trying to weigh the other 5 is Cheating.

so the moral is .. if you ever find yourself with 6 fish in the box.. always take all 6 to the tub..

Some here say not culling the 6th as soon as its caught and never having more than 5 in your poss. is cheating too..

Ringer · Post by **Ringer** » Thu Sep 23, 2010 4:14 am

Lot of opinions on this deal. I am paranoid about following the rules because they are the rules and I know that if I break one it is wrong. They are rules for everyone. If you know you mistakenly forgot the 6th fish then you need to be honest right up front. If you decide you will weigh in and then a competitor busts you, you were dishonest. Not the same as cheating if you got no advantage but definitely not honest. To me it is all about integrity.

2ndsuks · Post by **2ndsuks** » Thu Sep 23, 2010 9:27 am

Here's why I think it's being dishonest and not cheating.

Cheaters can be criminally prosecuted in a court of law, they are also banned from the sport.

Rule breakers just get DQed.

If we banned all the rule breakers, we'd have three boat tournaments to look forward to.

sTony · Post by **sTony** » Thu Sep 23, 2010 9:37 am

2ndsuks wrote:Here's why I think it's being dishonest and not cheating.

Cheaters can be criminally prosecuted in a court of law, they are also banned from the sport.

Rule breakers just get DQed.

If we banned all the rule breakers, we'd have three boat tournaments to look forward to.

So what you're saying, Mike, is that just about all the pro anglers out there are 'breaking rules' but that's not what you would call cheating.

Interesting concept for sure.

sTony

bryanmc · Post by **bryanmc** » Thu Sep 23, 2010 9:41 am

2ndsuks wrote: If we banned all the rule breakers, we'd have three boat tournaments to look forward to.

Kind of a sad state of affairs... I can't think of anyone that has ever been banned for breaking a rule. Some have been dq'd from tournaments for breaking a rule in pre-fish, but not banned from competition.

Someone brought up earlier that in order for it to be cheating, you had to be gaining an advantage. Wouldn't weighing your fish when you should be dq'd for leaving that 6th fish hidden in the box be an advantage?

I agree, breaking a rule isn't cheating, but in my opinion, under the circumstances described in the beginning of the post, it's pretty close.

sTony · Post by **sTony** » Thu Sep 23, 2010 9:47 am

There's a ton of stuff you can get DQ'd or banned for that aren't covered in most rules anywhere. Look at the Mike Hart deal. Rules don't specifically say you can't enhance the weight of you catch after catching them. But we all know you shouldn't and that most wouldn't.

Your whole attitude about this stuff is kind of like saying that anglers should do or are doing anything they think they can 'get away with'.

I, for one, refuse to believe that's accurate, Mike.

sTony

barse41 · Post by **barse41** » Thu Sep 23, 2010 10:48 am

here is a new poll: would you guys be making a big deal out of this if it were ME leaving a sixth in the livewell?

2ndsuks · Post by **2ndsuks** » Thu Sep 23, 2010 11:09 am

bryanmc wrote:
Someone brought up earlier that in order for it to be cheating, you had to be gaining an advantage. Wouldn't weighing your fish when you should be dq'd for leaving that 6th fish hidden in the box be an advantage?

Very good point Brian.
But you could also say the anglers that didn't DQ themselves for not having their pfd on while launching their boat are just as guilty!

So many anglers were guilty of not displaying their license in plain view last year it was silly, I'm just glad the Moral Police were not out in force!

What rule violations are excepted and what ones are not, where do you draw the line is my point.

tunaman · Post by **tunaman** » Thu Sep 23, 2010 11:28 am

Obviously some people draw the line considerably higher than others...

Not sure what part of "breaking a rule" isn't construed as "cheating" myself, and it is fascinating to see the various explanations and justifications offered up. Brings a whole new perspective to the tournament scene for me.

When you sign up for a tournament, you agree to abide by ALL RULES for that tournament, period. Any deviation is therefore a form of cheating, although many are lesser infractions and may result in lesser, or no, penalties.

It really does boil down to integrity and honor.

Roger

Levy · Post by **Levy** » Thu Sep 23, 2010 11:35 am

tunaman wrote:Obviously some people draw the line considerably higher than others...

Not sure what part of "breaking a rule" isn't construed as "cheating" myself, and it is fascinating to see the various explanations and justifications offered up. Brings a whole new perspective to the tournament scene for me.

When you sign up for a tournament, you agree to abide by ALL RULES for that tournament, period. Any deviation is therefore a form of cheating, although many are lesser infractions and may result in lesser, or no, penalties.

It really does boil down to integrity and honor.

Roger

Well said Roger!!

2ndsuks · Post by **2ndsuks** » Thu Sep 23, 2010 11:48 am

Very well said Roger.

I totally agree.

WackySenko · Post by **WackySenko** » Thu Sep 23, 2010 12:21 pm

If the rule states: you can only have 5 fish and must immediately cull upon catching your 6th fish. Then that means YES you are cheating if you toss a sixth fish in the well and keep fishing. Even though you ARE going to cull later.

Cooch · Post by **Cooch** » Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:59 pm

tunaman wrote:Obviously some people draw the line considerably higher than others...

Not sure what part of "breaking a rule" isn't construed as "cheating" myself, and it is fascinating to see the various explanations and justifications offered up. Brings a whole new perspective to the tournament scene for me.

When you sign up for a tournament, you agree to abide by ALL RULES for that tournament, period. Any deviation is therefore a form of cheating, although many are lesser infractions and may result in lesser, or no, penalties.

It really does boil down to integrity and honor.

Roger

Well said partner!

In the end, it ALL boils down to Integrity and Honor. It really does not matter what we as individuals think or believe. The Integrity and Honor, lies in the hands of one man, the Tournament Director. He, and only he has the final say in what determines the outcome of his events, based on his interpretation of his rules. His decission is final. Thank God, we have events that only have one TD!

I just hope all the great TDs accross this state, aren't rummaging thru all the rhetoric burning the internet Forums and taking anything more away from these types of threads, than the face value of them being discussions between all types of men who have their own thoughts on how things should work. Because if they are, their minds must be in a state of mass confussion and their Honor and Integrity is in jeapody, if they even begin to think how they are gonna please the masses. This fine group in here, has clearly proven, you can not.

fishinman · Post by **fishinman** » Thu Sep 23, 2010 2:37 pm

Heres the deal better yet , your all by yourself in huge cove at lake mead. You only have 1 fish in the well.All of a sudden 100's of 5-8lb fish are busting baby coots you sling 5 in the boat with your new coot lure but wait there they go again just a cast and one half away. You now have 6 fish! Do you cull or chase those puppies down? You will win as long as you make it back. So what's it gonna be. Are you a wussy ggody 2 shoes or do love to catch big fish like you will never experience again in 3 lifetimes. Well what ya gonna do punk?

bryanmc · Post by **bryanmc** » Thu Sep 23, 2010 3:14 pm

fishinman wrote:Are you a wussy goody 2 shoes or do love to catch big fish like you will never experience again in 3 lifetimes. Well what ya gonna do punk?

Personally.. I'm gonna cull. then chase them down. So in your opinion, someone who abides by the rules is a "wussy goody 2 shoes"?

Interesting

cull25 · Post by **cull25** » Thu Sep 23, 2010 3:34 pm

fishinman wrote:Heres the deal better yet , your all by yourself in huge cove at lake mead. You only have 1 fish in the well.All of a sudden 100's of 5-8lb fish are busting baby coots you sling 5 in the boat with your new coot lure but wait there they go again just a cast and one half away. You now have 6 fish! Do you cull or chase those puppies down? You will win as long as you make it back. So what's it gonna be. Are you a wussy ggody 2 shoes or do love to catch big fish like you will never experience again in 3 lifetimes. Well what ya gonna do punk?

A similar scenario was discussed above with a reference to two men fishing a point....
Rules are Rules. You are the one that has to make that decision. I'd like to think that everyone else would follow them as I would, but it appears that rather than making the moral decsion right then and there that some people are going to wait for a TD to make it for them.(That is if that person admits to it or is seen by another angler) There is no question that I wouldn't "want" to just hurry up and cast right back out there, who wouldn't?

The bottom line as was stated above that that every one of us holds ourselves to a different moral standard. And I would assume that the money that would be won in most of these events is not going to change anyone's lives. But if I am going to win a tournament I dont want an asterix next to it. And I surely dont want a thread on the internet started around me. Its still fishing.

Ringer · Post by **Ringer** » Fri Sep 24, 2010 3:48 am

fishnman-you are morally corrupt. If you aren't strong enough to control your impulses during a tournament you should not be fishing them. Real men man up and do what is right because they know it is the tougher road to take. The real pussies are the boys who break the rules and still think they won fair and square.

fishinman · Post by **fishinman** » Fri Sep 24, 2010 6:54 am

Yep BECAUSE, You will only experience things like that once in a lifetime then it's gone for ever! You can cull after their gone which would be as long as maybe 5 minutes max! Ever gone through a red light a 4:15 am or not come to a complete dead stop before making a right turn at a red light. Did you ever exceed 55 mph while towing your boat besides passing a slower vehicle. Your intentions are admirable but really I can only imagine you being a machine but your not you have passion increased by adrenaline , expectations and imagination. Grasp the glory of nature as it unfolds before your eyes.

BigJeff · Post by **BigJeff** » Fri Sep 24, 2010 7:00 am

Question on the 6th fish in the box. If I have 5 in the well, catch #6 and determine its going to cull a fish out, and then proceed to drop the 6th fish in the box prior to culling am I now DQ'd because I have 6 in the box? Maybe this is a silly question but it does leave a grey area for having a 6th fish in the box.

stickbait · Post by **stickbait** » Fri Sep 24, 2010 7:15 am

BigJeff wrote:Question on the 6th fish in the box. If I have 5 in the well, catch #6 and determine its going to cull a fish out, and then proceed to drop the 6th fish in the box prior to culling am I now DQ'd because I have 6 in the box? Maybe this is a silly question but it does leave a grey area for having a 6th fish in the box.

Of course not... first and formost you have to take care of the fish.. get it in the live well, don't throw it on the floor or leave it in the net.... then get out scales and balance beam and get it done...DO NOT CONTUINE TO FISH ....the rule is directed to not be carring around a bunch of fish

If you notice alot of the real pros will weigh and hook up a float at the time they catch each fish then its a matter of seconds to weight and cull when you catch the 6th because you already know whats up ...

stickbait · Post by **stickbait** » Fri Sep 24, 2010 7:24 am

fishinman wrote:Yep BECAUSE, You will only experience things like that once in a lifetime then it's gone for ever! You can cull after their gone which would be as long as maybe 5 minutes max! Ever gone through a red light a 4:15 am or not come to a complete dead stop before making a right turn at a red light. Did you ever exceed 55 mph while towing your boat besides passing a slower vehicle. Your intentions are admirable but really I can only imagine you being a machine but your not you have passion increased by adrenaline , expectations and imagination. Grasp the glory of nature as it unfolds before your eyes.

fishinman wrote:Heres the deal better yet , your all by yourself in huge cove at lake mead. You only have 1 fish in the well.All of a sudden 100's of 5-8lb fish are busting baby coots you sling 5 in the boat with your new coot lure but wait there they go again just a cast and one half away. You now have 6 fish! Do you cull or chase those puppies down? You will win as long as you make it back. So what's it gonna be. Are you a wussy ggody 2 shoes or do love to catch big fish like you will never experience again in 3 lifetimes. Well what ya gonna do punk?

But if you ever have to take a lie dector test and they ask you if you ever cheated or broke a rule in a tournament... what would your answer be ??? .. if you say NO the needle will go off the screen...

Lots of guys forget about this... I for one would answer yes.. cause I have been Dqed or fudged a 5 mph zone before...

Ringer · Post by **Ringer** » Fri Sep 24, 2010 7:28 am

Oh, I might do it but I would never weigh in after I did it. If it was such a great thrill I would give up my entry fee and just fun fish the rest of the day. You can't be just a little dishonest. I have broken plenty of rules in my life and paid the consequences. Just saying if you are fishing against other people you respect you would just can it and have a ball. I wouldn't keep loading the livewell. I don't respect the government so all bets are off there.

Did they cheat?

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