Colors in water confusion

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Ronje
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Colors in water confusion

Postby Ronje » Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:32 pm

Been a lot of confusion about colors and how they operate underwater for a long long time.

Particularly the claims about how color red disappears first. It doesn't. That only happensin clear ocean water.

The reverse happens in lake water.

Red is the last color to disappear in lake water that's murkier than drinking clarity (5NTU or more).




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WB Staff
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Re: Colors in water confusion

Postby WB Staff » Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:02 am

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hydro
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Re: Colors in water confusion

Postby hydro » Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:32 am

According to the "Lake Water " graph the colors fade out after being submerged only inches underwater ?
A fish's eyes are built differently than ours and most likely don't perceive colors the same as we do anyway .
Bottom line is if a particular color is getting bit it's the right color regardless of what it looks like to us .
Exhibit A: Bubblegum Trick worm

Here's a link to an interesting underwater video 0-150 ' deep in steps where you can witness the color change occurring with water depth .


Ronje
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Re: Colors in water confusion

Postby Ronje » Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:39 am

Hello Hydro

I guess I'm proposing some pretty radical stuff but I can back it up.

That link video is for water of high clarity (eg low turbidity........drinking water clarity) with visibility of 100ft or more.

Only found in clear ocean water or a place like Crater Lake.

NOT lake water where bass fishing is carried out.

With lake water the clarity is less and the visibility is less because the turbidity is higher (NTU of 15 or more).

Do bass see colors different to humans?

Yes they do. They have no blue color receptor so can't see blue at all. They're colorblind to blue. So any color that has a blue component in it will appear different to a bass.

Example...the color white has equal portions of red, green and blue and humans see that as white.

Having no blue color receptor, bass only see the red and green components so white appears as a mixture of red and green which is ............yellow (to a bass).

That's why bass can't distinguish between white and yellow.

Ditto with the color hot pink. It appears as orange to a bass.

Sky blue (Cyan) becomes green to a bass.

Blue becomes black.

There are many more apparent color changes due to bass having no blue color receptor in their eyes.

Happy to put those apparent color changes up in image/color form. Plus how to work them out for yourself if you like. You don't really need me to do it for you as its more satisfying to work something out ourselves.

Its simple and easy to do plus the info has been out there for years.

The example of lake water was for heavily stained peat water with high NTU turbidity. But notice that the red penetrates further. Look at the 3 diagrams on page 4. As the water gets more turbid follow the X for best color penetration.

The important thing to take out of that is the reversal of the color fade in turbid/murky water compared to what happens in clear water. The color red penetrates murky water (bass lake water) further than any other.

What's been thrust in front of every angler is that red fades first in any water and that's simply not true.

THAT'S what been causing all the confusion for many many years. And they're still doing it.

Look up fishing magazine advice about lure colours. One of the first confidently wrong statements they make is that red fades out first.
Last edited by Ronje on Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Ronje
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Re: Colors in water confusion

Postby Ronje » Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:13 pm

Screenshot (444).png


Here's the image of what happens to colors when bass get their beady little eyes (with no blue color receptor)on them. Bass will see them differently to us.

So, apart from getting the color fade sequence wrong, this info hasn't seen the light of day much in writing/expert circles either.

Its simple to work out. There is no magic or "smoke and mirrors" associated with this.

HappyDogBassFishing
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Re: Colors in water confusion

Postby HappyDogBassFishing » Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:39 pm

That is a very scientific report. Thank you.

Ronje
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Re: Colors in water confusion

Postby Ronje » Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:52 pm

Thanks for the kind comment HappyDog.

Watch this space.

Ronje
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Re: Colors in water confusion

Postby Ronje » Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:15 pm

https://www.csfieldguide.org.nz/en/inte ... rgb-mixer/

Here's the little color mixer converter that makes things so easy.

Every color is a mix of red, green and blue colors. Its called the RGB additive system.

For example: White is a mix of equal parts of red, green and blue.

Open the rgb mixer and slide the 3 "buttons " max to the right (255).

The combined mix color is shown in the square. Its white.

Now:
Bass have no blue receptor in their eyes so slide the blue button back to zero.

What color is in the square now?

Yellow.....so bass (having no blue receptor) see white as yellow.

Want to practice a bit with the mixer?

Say yr favorite lure color is sky blue (cyan). That's an RGB mix of 0 red, 255 green and 255 blue.

So, (again) because bass have no blue receptor, slide the blue button back to zero.

What color is in the square now?

Green.....so bass see sky blue color as green.

That's how easy it is and that is where the color change chart in the previous post came from.

What you need to know is the RGB mix of whatever color you want to try. Like another favorite lure color.

So where do you find the RGB mixer numbers for various colors?

Right here:

Colours with RGB codes.png


Any color which has a B number above zero (the last number on the right inside those brackets) is going to be seen differently by a bass to the way we humans see it.

Sometimes its only a minor change of shade but other times quite a radical change.

And the apparent color change has absolutely nothing to do with the water clarity or visibility.

There are a lot with blue numbers in those brackets aren't there?

You thought you were buying a nice sky blue lure and you bought it because you had caught lots of bass on it. So it seemed obvious to you that a sky blue lure was indeed a bass-taker.

Your friend was equally as adamant that his green choice was better. The reality was that bass saw your lure and his lure as the same color (both green).

Hence many arguments about which color lure is best.

In actual fact what you were buying was a "green" lure (because green was what a bass saw your sky blue lure as).

And there's a damned good reason that green is one of 2 most visible colors to a bass.

Ronje
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Re: Colors in water confusion

Postby Ronje » Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:43 am

So... who has followed the link to the RGB color mixer and had a play with colors?

Had a think about how some colors are perceived differently by LMB as they look at them with no blue receptor?

The fact that they don't have a blue receptor and therefore perceive most colors differently to humans has been in the public domain for years and the writing gurus should have picked it up years ago.

I've never seen any mention of it in any magazine (although I must confess to not reading every one of them).

Ever noticed how these guys (and most video makers who espouse the same confidently wrong info) can't be contacted about anything they write?
Last edited by Ronje on Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Ronje
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Re: Colors in water confusion

Postby Ronje » Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:52 pm

From a post yesterday on June 18th.

Bottom line is if a particular color is getting bit it's the right color regardless of what it looks like to us .

Exhibit A: Bubblegum Trick worm

Its true that it doesn't matter what it looks like to us. After all, we humans don't have to eat it.

What matters is what it looks like to a bass.

And what does a bubblegum Trick worm look like to a bass?

All is not what it seems about Exhibit A: Bubblegum Trick Worm.

Being pink, it sure doesn't look like either of the red or green colors that bass easily see does it?

So what makes a pink Bubblegum Trick Worm so attractive to a bass?

Wonder what RGB mix makes up the pink Bubblegum color to us?

Here 'tis. R255, G182 and B193

And on the RGB mixer on that link I put up?
RGB Mixer - Pink.png


Yep. That's it.

Now ('cos bass can't see blue), lets slide the blue component back to 0.

Now what color does a bass see that pink Bubblegum worm as?
No blue component.png

Orange of course. So maybe the Bubblegum Trick Worm should be called an Orange Trick Worm. Probably is in bass language.



Lets have a look at bass eye color response curves to see how a bass sees the color orange?

screenshot red.png


Note that the red curve is twice the width of the green curve. That's because LMB have twin red receptors for every single green receptor. So the red receptors will see colors off to the side of red as well as they see color red.

Look at the color band under the graph.

The bass will see orange just as clearly as it will see red (because of the wider "window" of the red receptors). In technical terms that "window is called "pass-band" meaning that that the twin red receptors of a bass eye are "broadband" compared to the green receptors.

And THAT'S why bass like exhibit A (Bubblegum) color. Because orange (as bass see the pink bubblegum color) passes easily through the red receptor.

To put it simply, Bubblegum Trick Worms get "bit" because bass can see them easily (like green or red).

Do that same "slide the blue back" experiment with the RGB mixer on some other lure colors and you'll soon work out why bass go for some colors and not others (even if they're not red and/or green to us).
Last edited by Ronje on Sat Jun 26, 2021 11:45 am, edited 8 times in total.

Ronje
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Re: Colors in water confusion

Postby Ronje » Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:06 pm

A bit interesting and the effect of color more easily understood?

And we haven't even touched on fluorescence yet.
Last edited by Ronje on Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

Ronje
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Re: Colors in water confusion

Postby Ronje » Sun Jun 20, 2021 1:43 pm

We will look at how fluorescence works and the role it plays shortly.

But first we need to understand that the most important thing that determines how colors behave in lake water is the clarity.

If we look at a body of water like Crater Lake in Oregon, we see water of incredible clarity (for a lake).

However, the clarity there is actually no better than that of open ocean water and the colors behave like so:
Visibility of colours.png
Visibility of colours.png (6.06 KiB) Viewed 2130 times


That's what the gurus and expert writers tell us and they are correct (but only for very high clarity water). We've already seen what happens with colors when the water is murkier.

Everything good so far.

But bass lake fishing doesn't take place in waters with that kind of clarity and the color behaviour is different in those bass lake waters.

So what then determines the clarity of bass lake waters?

Its called turbidity (murkiness) and Wikepedia defines it for us as:

Turbidity is the cloudiness or haziness of a fluid caused by large numbers of individual particles that are generally invisible to the naked eye, similar to smoke in air. The measurement of turbidity is a key test of water quality.

Interruption this end.... more to come....Ronje

WRB
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Re: Colors in water confusion

Postby WRB » Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:03 am

Let me know how the bass brain interprets colors.....answer we don’t have a clue.
Tom

Ronje
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Re: Colors in water confusion

Postby Ronje » Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:33 pm

Let me know how the bass brain interprets colors.....answer we don’t have a clue.

That's not true, Tom.

We do indeed know how the bass brain interprets colors.


A couple of posts back, I put up 10 colors in a graph showing how we humans interpret certain colors and how a bass brain interprets those same colors differently because they can't see color blue.

Here's that chart again:
Screenshot (444).png


That's only 10 of the more common colors.

Because bass can't see the color blue, there are a lot more colors that bass see differently to us.

I also put up a chart giving the RGB mixer numbers for a for 56 different colors.

I invited you to use the RGB mixer ( I gave you the link) and look at every color that has a B (blue component number in it). Slide the RGB B slider back to zero (because bass don't have a blue color receptor and THAT is the color that a bass sees instead of how we humans see it.

I showed how to use that mixer.

Of those 56 colors, 40 of them have a blue B component so by putting those RGB numbers up on the mixer and then sliding the B (blue) slider back to zero, the result is how a bass brain sees that color as opposed to how we humans see that color.

Have you used the RGB mixer to see for yourself? Its very simple.

Now knowing that a bass brain sees 40 of the 56 colors (70 %) on that chart differently to the way a human brain sees them, its not surprising that there's confusion, that some people simply throw their hands in the air and believe that nobody has a clue.

And there are a lot more than 56 colors.
Attachments
Colours with RGB codes.png
Last edited by Ronje on Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

mark poulson
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Re: Colors in water confusion

Postby mark poulson » Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:04 pm

Ronje,
Does that mean that a bass sees a blue frog as black?
Attitude plus effort equal success
CLEAN AND DRY

mark poulson
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Re: Colors in water confusion

Postby mark poulson » Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:04 pm

Ronje,
Does that mean that a bass sees a blue frog as black?
Attitude plus effort equal success

CLEAN AND DRY

Ronje
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Re: Colors in water confusion

Postby Ronje » Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:09 pm

A dark blue frog.......yes a bass sees it as black.

Here's how and why.

Put the blue color of your frog up on the RGB mixer (you'll need the RGB numbers from the previous table):

Screenshot (541).png


Now slide the blue slider back do zero.

What color is in the box? Black (and that's how a bass sees color blue).

Screenshot (542).png


Hard to believe that this info has been "out there" for so long and none of the experts, gurus, writers and video makers has picked up on it, isn't it. I can't find any. Happy if somebody points one out.

Here's a link to 156 different colors (scroll down the opening page a bit):

https://www.rapidtables.com/web/color/RGB_Color.html

A bass brain will see 132 of these (85%) differently to what a human brain sees them because those 132 have a blue component in their color (and bass can't see blue).

Incidently, bass aren't the only popular fish that don't have a blue receptor therefore can't see blue. Just as much confusion with them also.
Last edited by Ronje on Sat Jun 26, 2021 12:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Whoopbass
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Re: Colors in water confusion

Postby Whoopbass » Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:37 pm

That's a lot of technical info that's just too complicated for the average fisherman.
Now if some company made some type of Color-C-Lector to help a fisherman choose colors then now were talking.
Oh wait, that's been done. Come and gone. Just another gimmick.

Interesting info that you posted but we don't know if its opinion, factual, or an educated guess from scientists. Does it even matter what color they can see best at a particular time because you would think whatever color matches the forage the fish are feeding on would be the best color.

Ronje
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Re: Colors in water confusion

Postby Ronje » Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:00 pm

Hello Whoopbass

What I'm doing here is attempting to fill the void of technical stuff left by the bass fishing industry players, magazines, video makers, lure makers and experts of different types. A technical and factual void that's existed for years and years although there's been a fair representation of confidently wrong info distributed as well. Stuff that's never been actually challenged (the philosophy being that if its never been challenged then it must be right).

Mostly (because of the confusing info being put out by the guys above), anglers have had to resort to trial and error in figuring out what works and what doesn't. Sometimes taking years and years to do it and mostly avoidable.

I'm putting up stuff that will give anglers just starting out a better starting point by not having to go through all of the confusion and unnecessary trial and error that a lot of we guys had to experience.

Because nobody could be expected to remember all of this stuff that's suddenly available, I'll be leaving it up on here as a point of reference for people to check out what they've found out for themselves. Why something does or doesn't line up with the technical facts.

It can also be used to check the facts about anything else that's been presented to them.

A yardstick against which stuff can be measured.

Make this stuff a handy reference point. Their trial and error days still won't be over as that's what fishing is all about( all types of fishing). But a lot of the confusion won't need to be experienced.

If they can pick up some of the technical fundamentals to counter some of the confusion, then they'll start off their fishing activities in a much better position than we did.

It was pretty obvious that this is a lot of technical data to absorb and that the average fisherman can't or may not want to. I know that. What I'm putting up here are the technical facts (all supportable).

I'm happy to help people pick up the fundamentals that they're interested in. No gimmicks.

I don't deal in guesses (educated ones from scientists or otherwise).

My background isn't opinion based. In my working life, I've had to prove any views or opinions to a certain standard of proof level (beyond a reasonable doubt or balance of probabilities mostly) depending on what the subject was.

To achieve an outcome, this sort of stuff needs to be supportable technical fact. And it is.

Have you looked at the stuff from the US Navy, from John Kirk, from Maya Stomp, from NOAA as background?

Have you had a play around with the color mixer link?
Last edited by Ronje on Sat Jun 26, 2021 12:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Ronje
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Re: Colors in water confusion

Postby Ronje » Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:59 pm

Turbidity is the cloudiness or haziness of a fluid caused by large numbers of individual particles that are generally invisible to the naked eye, similar to smoke in air. The measurement of turbidity is a key test of water quality.
Turbidity/Clarity continued…..

We need to know the “murkiness” of the water that we are going to fish in so that we know how far down colored light penetrates. The depth of the Sunlight zone. The depth at which we turn to contrast selection of lures instead of lure color fishing.

Don’t get clarity confused with visibility. Clarity is a measure of murkiness (turbidity) and visibility underwater is dependent on clarity.

So how did we know what the turbidity of water is and what it looks like?

We measure it with a simple old cheap turbidity tube.

Turbidity tube measurement.JPG


41 NTU water measured in a turbidity tube.
Bit murky isn’t it. The water is generally pale green in lake water but can be stained also (eg tannin).


So what’s this magical and apparently highly complicated turbidity tube?
Screenshot (503).png
Screenshot (503).png (116.78 KiB) Viewed 1823 times


It consists of 2 pieces of clear plastic tubing each about 12 inches long and about 1and ½ inches in diam. One tube fits onto the top of the other for extended range. The markings display NTU (turbidity). Easy to store for use on the boat. Tube costs about $30 or so.

Simply pour in the lake water while looking down the inside of the tube at the black/white quadrant on the bottom. As the b/w quadrant fades from view, stop pouring.

The black calibrated mark opposite the water level inside the tube is the turbidity in NTUs (the water murkiness/clarity).

No rocket science associated with determining the turbidity of the water you are about to fish in.

You can get a digital “jesus box” with batteries for hundreds of $ to measure it more accurately if you like, but a turbidity tube is ideal, simple (no batteries), easy to use and cheap.

So how does this NTU reading tell us the visibility underwater? Tell us at what depth the last color drops out (the start of the Twilight zone)?

We have 3 options to do those things:

1. use of a complicated maths formula which I’m happy to give you if you wish;
2. use a conversion chart which I can give you if you wish; or
3. mark the visibility equal to the NTU reading on the tube itself. No need to convert anything or look up some
chart or other. Simply read both readings off the tube at the same time. But the one in which you are
interested is the visibility (the red one).

With option 3 you can do it yourself simply, accurately enough, quickly and easily. No help from anybody necessary.

Like so.

Screenshot (545).png
Screenshot (545).png (26.82 KiB) Viewed 1823 times


The black markings are turbidity in NTU and the red markings are underwater visibility in inches. In case the markings are a bit blurry:
10 NTU = 42 inches vis
15 NTU = 32 inches vis
20 NTU = 26 inches vis
30 NTU = 20 inches vis
40 NTU = 17 inches vis

Just mark the visibility figures on the tube in red permanent marker etc and that's it. Simple as.

I haven’t gone past 40 NTU as the water is too murky (only 17 inches of visibility) to be relying on color alone.

Frankly, I’m surprised that nobody seems to have made a turbidity tube for fishing considering the vital role that turbidity/murkiness and visibility play in bass fishing. If somebody does sell one please let me know. So simple, easy and ever so useful.

Visibility for NTU figures below 10 range from 45 to 66 inches.

Below 5 NTU we are talking about drinking water clarity with visibility approaching 6 ft or more.

A nice starting figure is 1 NTU. Visibility is 192 inches ( 16 ft).

With treated drinking water for distribution to the public, we’re talking NTU readings of .2 and visibility of 558 inches (46 feet).

Interestingly, visibility of 46 ft (drinking water quality that we think is pretty clear) falls a long way short of visibility in Crater Lake (Oregon) or mid-ocean salt water.

Ronje
Last edited by Ronje on Sat Jun 26, 2021 12:35 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Ronje
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Re: Colors in water confusion

Postby Ronje » Tue Jun 22, 2021 3:26 pm

A bit on why I started doing this stuff.

JIGSAW PUZZLE

You know, I’ve often thought about the best way to describe how to sort out fishing.

There can be so many variables that sometimes I felt at a loss to decide where to start.

Bass fishing is one of conundrums.

Not only are there so many variables (what fishing experience hasn’t got variables, I guess) but because of its popularity, LMB fishing seems to have more than most.

There are the usual variables plus LMB fishing seems to have a lot more unhelpful variables thrown in the mix by probably well-meaning people which create so much confusion that its hard to know where to even think about starting.

That was me until determination set in.

Some of those unhelpful contributions had started the egg (fact) scrambling process. How does one attempt to unscramble an egg (or at least attempt to partly unscramble an egg)?

I’ve spoken before about those unhelpful and confusing variables (and where I believe they came from) previously so won’t flog a dead horse about them.

Eventually I likened the confusion that most seem to be experiencing (including me) to watching an octopus making love to a set of bagpipes. Lots of moving parts and nobody sure about what part fitted where.

With LMB I thought of it as 4 extra octo legs and a couple of extra bagpipe drones (legs) added to the mix.

On a more serious and practical note I thought of LMB fishing as a jigsaw puzzle with no image of what the pieces should look like when all were put together properly. The only recognizable starting pieces were any piece with a straight edge denoting one edge or other of the sides of the puzzle picture (which we don't have).. It could fit anywhere along the edge of the puzzle.

My intention was to nail down a few of recognizable pieces of the LMB puzzle thus giving a number of starting points.

That meant that the starting pile of pieces was smaller plus gave more options to fit others to those nailed down pieces that couldn’t be done until they were.

Hopefully, the whole image would eventually end up complete.

New people (finding that some of the pieces were fixed down) would find it easier and less confusing in sorting out the rest of the puzzle.

They’d be starting from a much more advanced position that many, many others did over many, many years.

THAT was (and still is) the point to be arrived at.

Meanwhile, in trying to work out how to present all of these puzzle pieces in logical and understandable format, 2 original and very important things to be addressed remained. These were the environment in which fishing happens (hence the info about turbidity, clarity, Sunlight, Twilight and Midnight zones) and also the tools that a LMB has to survive in that variable environment. Not just vision but a few other tools as well.

We’ve done a bit on both so far with some more to come.

Anyway that’s the problem, the strategy and the tactics as I saw best in trying to make sense of it all.

Thanks for reading this and hope it makes things a bit clearer.
Last edited by Ronje on Sat Jun 26, 2021 12:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

gabuelhaj
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Re: Colors in water confusion

Postby gabuelhaj » Tue Jun 22, 2021 5:21 pm

If bass see the color blue as black, what color is black, red, green all mixed in equal amounts?

:?:
Glenn Abuelhaj

Ronje
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Re: Colors in water confusion

Postby Ronje » Wed Jun 23, 2021 1:31 am

If bass see the color blue as black, what color is black, red, green all mixed in equal amounts?

Black is black. The absence of all color.

There is no half or full strength strength black. Just as there is no "half pregnant", "half dead" or "half alive". It follows that there is no half strength black to equal half strength red or half strength green.

Half strength black is simply black.

Two different color processing methods. Additive or subtractive.

Same result but 2 different ways of arriving at that same result.

The additive color process has a starting base of zero color (zero color = black) and colors are added.
Screenshot (542).png


Add equal amounts of red and green at half strength:

Screenshot (556).png


Add more red and green to full strength:

Screenshot (555).png


Ronje
Last edited by Ronje on Wed Jun 23, 2021 2:27 am, edited 5 times in total.

Ronje
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Re: Colors in water confusion

Postby Ronje » Wed Jun 23, 2021 1:55 am

If bass see the color blue as black, what color is black, red, green all mixed in equal amounts?


The subtractive color process has a starting base of white (max equal amounts of R, G and Blue) and colors are subtracted.

Screenshot (558).png
.

Subtract blue

Screenshot (555).png


Had a member on here a while ago (Whoopbass) who observed that some of the info in its raw form was too complicated for average Joe fisherman

I tended to agree with him if all that I was going to do was put stuff up. (See my response to him).

I didn't really want to go into differing color mixing process like this further confusing anybody.

Can we let this additive/subtractive stuff go at this stage (if that's what was behind yr question) and maybe we can talk via pm further if u want, please? I don't think I can put attachments on a pm so that may interfere?

Ronje

Senkosam
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Re: Colors in water confusion

Postby Senkosam » Wed Jun 23, 2021 4:02 am

Reply moved. Started a post.

WRB
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Re: Colors in water confusion

Postby WRB » Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:14 am

Bill Murphy in his book In Pursuit Giant Bass has a chapter on color worth reading, based on his expertise catching big bass and his expertise on the color white as a dental technician.
Having read dozen of papers on how fish/ bass see colors none including this are controlled conditions, using animals or fish based on the eye physiology. It’s impossible to know how the bass brain interprets color spectrum under no light, low light and bright light in the wild.
Tom
Last edited by WRB on Thu Jun 24, 2021 10:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

Ronje
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Re: Colors in water confusion

Postby Ronje » Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:32 am

Tom
I don't want this stuff to bog down so lets just agree to disagree, let it go at that and move on.

Ronje

I've sent you a PM for a chat away from here if you want to.

gabuelhaj
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Re: Colors in water confusion

Postby gabuelhaj » Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:42 pm

Physics aside, it'll be interesting if a study can be done to train bass to differentiate between black and blue ie: if they eat a black color object, they'd be shocked and if they eat a blue color object, no shock and they swim on their merry way.

Good luck!
Glenn Abuelhaj

hydro
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Re: Colors in water confusion

Postby hydro » Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:06 pm

This is groundbreaking information . Fishermen have been catching bass for decades on all the wrong colors .
Putting things in proper context if a fish bites the lure you're throwing it IS the right color.

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Re: Colors in water confusion

Postby Ronje » Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:41 am

Hello Hydro

I think you are missing what this is all about.

Go back and look at why I'm putting these facts up here.

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Re: Colors in water confusion

Postby Ronje » Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:49 am

Gabuelhaj

Glenn, you said:

it'll be interesting if a study can be done to train bass to differentiate between black and blue

Its already been done. In 2017 (published in March 2018) by a team led by Lisa Mitchem from the University of Virginia.

I summarised what the significance of Lia Mitchem's results were to what we were talking about. Lack of a blue color receptor in the eyes of a LMB and how they perceive colors with a blue component differently to humans.

That's fact. Not opinion.

I put the link to that research up earlier and invited people to check for themselves. Did you?

Here it is again along with another invitation to read it.

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... mouth_bass

I'm putting technical facts up here along with the supporting data to show that they are indeed facts.

Happy to talk separately about any stuff that somebody is having difficulty with but don't want to bog down the thread.

Send me a pm about any difficulties, maybe.

Ronje

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Re: Colors in water confusion

Postby Ronje » Thu Jun 24, 2021 12:32 pm

We've covered a lot of territory so far and still a way to go.

The last subject we looked at was basics of turbidity and visibility and how we can sort that out very simply by putting some red markings on a cheap old turbidity tube.

We seem to have turbidity (murkiness) pretty well nailed for what anglers are interested in.

But we are NOT really interested in turbidity (murkiness) apart from its effect on colour fade.

No. We're more interested in turbidity's effect on visibility.

However, there's also a lot of confusion about visibility. What it actually means (and visibility ain't what a lot of people think it is including many anglers in the "highly experienced" sector).

Watch this space again.

Ronje

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Re: Colors in water confusion

Postby gabuelhaj » Thu Jun 24, 2021 12:54 pm

Thanks for reposting the link, interesting study and (surprising) results.

Good luck!
Glenn Abuelhaj

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Re: Colors in water confusion

Postby Ronje » Thu Jun 24, 2021 1:00 pm

We're off fishing and checking out the water quality over the side of the boat.

We can just see the bottom 3 ft down as it fades.

Is our visibility then 3 ft?

No its not. The underwater visibility is actually 6 ft.

How so?

Screenshot (484).png


Light enters the water and penetrates down to the bottom (or to a lure that's 3 ft down).

The light is then reflected from the lure (or bottom) back up to our eye meaning that the light has actually travelled 6 ft through the water. That's the actual water visibility.

The visibility will vary with the murkiness but it'll always be approx twice the depth that object/s disappear at.

Scientists have different terminology to describe the same thing. They regularly use a term extinction coefficient in their discussions. A couple of big words there.

To us its simply visibility (the distance to where the light fades out).

We know that turbidity/murkiness impacts on how far different colors penetrate water.

So how does this "visibility" impact on our "vision" fishing?

Here's how:

Screenshot (561).png


Notice that these examples are primarily of horizontal visibility.

So the next logical question might be:

What about fish 2,3 or 4?

Would they be able to see lure1?

Answer that question and we might just have stumbled upon a very handy tactic in fishing for LMB. I'm sure that some of the tournament guys and some of the experienced guys have arrived at that tactic before but I'll lay odds that very few of them know why its so.

I'll show you how to work it out if you want but its really only Pythagoras and most of you would know how to use Pythagoras anyway.

Note

The red markings on the previous turbidity tube post already takes the x2 calculation into account to give visibility. They're real visibility figures from the calculator.

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Re: Colors in water confusion

Postby Ronje » Thu Jun 24, 2021 3:33 pm

Here's an example (from a well known touring professional bass fisherman) of the confidently wrong stuff that's being dished up as truth via these magazine/article writers.

He wrote:
How to Determine Water Quality

In order to determine the water clarity, there is a very simple procedure you can follow. Tie on a brightly colored lure and reel it to the very end of your rod tip.

Then submerge the tip of your rod into the water until the lure is no longer visible.

Mark the rod at the point where it entered the water when the lure disappeared. The distance between the rod tip and the point the rod entered the water is the water clarity depth.


Firstly, he's not measuring clarity like he thinks he is. Clarity is determined by turbidity and you don't measure turbidity with a fishing rod.

We know that he's only got half the actual underwater visibility. He goes on to then expand his utterings based on that incorrect info.

So where does that leave his contribution in the credibility stakes?

I've put this up here simply to demonstrate just how wrong these guys can be. Confidently wrong 'cos I think he actually believes it. He simply doesn't know but there's money in these articles as long as you sound confident.

Then there's no contact info to talk to him about it so nothing these guys write/utter/show can be challenged. So it
must be correct? That's the philosophy.

Little wonder that there's confusion.

Tip

If you don't want to measure things with a tube or use a table you can do as this guy suggests (its a good, practical and simple way to get a close-enough working result) but make sure that you double the distance from the rod tip to the point where the rod leaves the water. Its basically a good suggestion but he simply got visibility, clarity and depth confused.

Anyway, here's the stuff I promised

download/file.php?mode=view&id=64913
Attachments
Screenshot (562).png
Last edited by Ronje on Sat Jun 26, 2021 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Colors in water confusion

Postby pflat » Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:57 pm

It’s almost like your selling something….

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Re: Colors in water confusion

Postby Ronje » Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:25 pm

No, I'm not.

Sometimes people do things to help others. Strange concept?

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Re: Colors in water confusion

Postby Ronje » Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:58 am

A couple of posts ago, I showed you a diagram of 4 lures being retrieved through a water column (lures1,2,3 and 4).

Total visibility (off your turbidity tube or double what that pro said) indicated 60 inches (which is the visibility at which color drops out. Called the Sunlight zone). The Twilight zone starts 60 inches down in the water column.

Lure 1 @ a depth of 9 inches.
Lure 2 @ a depth of 30 inches.
Lure 3 @ a depth of 45 inches.
Lure 4 @ a depth of 60 inches.

Sitting nearby were 4 fish at the same depths in that same water column (oddly, they were fish1,2,3 and 4) but at varying distances from the lure's line of travel.

Here's that diagram (without the words that were in it previously).

Screenshot (561).png


All neat, tidy and horizontal. Don't we just wish that all fishing was as neat and tidy.

Remember that I asked a question if fish 2,3 or 4 could see lure 1?

That threw a spanner in the works 'cos we weren't horizontal any more. There were distances at angles involved now (eg fish 2, 3 and 4 to lure1). Indeed also to various other combinations of our lures and fish.

Hence reference to Pythagoras calculations. You guys surely must have known that modern day fishing involved training course in mathematics!

Anyway, I got my grandson (he's 14) to carry out those high level mathematical calculations and we came up with the answer to the first question: Can fish 1,2,3 and 4 see lure 1?

Lure 1.png


Yep, they sure can. The green lines mean that there's sufficient visibility.

What about lures 2, 3 and 4? Can fish 1, 2, 3 and 4 see them too?

Back to the Phythagoras calculator for the grandson. (Watch what happens to the green lines from here on).

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Re: Colors in water confusion

Postby Ronje » Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:55 pm

Can all 4 fish see lure 2?

Lure 2.png


No, fish 1 can't see lure 2. The other 3 fish can.

Although shallower (9" depth) than fish 2,3 and 4, fish 1 can't see lure 2 'cos the distance that light has to travel 30" down to the lure where its reflected to fish which is a further 55" (angled distance) away. Total required distance of 85 ".

With water visibility of 60", the light path is too long ( only 60" available) so fish 1 wont see lure 2.

First red "visibility failure" line.

Fish 1 would see lure 2 if he was 30" or less away from it. By going deeper with our lure, we've halved our chances of fish 1 seeing it. Remember that.

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Re: Colors in water confusion

Postby Ronje » Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:12 pm

OK then what about lure 3. Its now at a depth of 45 inches.

Can the fish see it?

Lure 3.png


More red lines. Doesn't look good.

Neither fish 1 nor fish 2 can see lure 3. The other 2 fish can see it though. They can also still lure 2 and lure 1 as well.

Fish 1 has to contend with a total light path of 117 " in water with visibility of 60". He's got no chance of seeing lure 3.

Fish 2 is up against a total light path length of 79" so he's got no chance either.

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Re: Colors in water confusion

Postby Ronje » Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:33 pm

So what about lure 4? Can anything see lure 4?

Red failure lines everywhere.

Lure 4.png


Sure. Fish 4 can but that's only 'cos he's right beside it (at the downward limit of visibility..60"). If he was 6'' away he wouldn't see it either.

Fish 1 has a light path length via lure 4 of 132"
Fish 2 ...................94"; and
Fish 3 ...................81".....................so those 3 fish are out of our vision fishing exercise.

Fish 4 is right on top of lure 4.

So we'd better make the most of catching fish 4 'cos he's the only one that can see our lure anyway.

Basically we're doing the very opposite to trying to maximise our chances of success.

So the question has to be "Why on earth would we run our lure right to the depth limit of visibility when all we've done is divide our chances of catching a fish by 4"?

Well. We had a plan. That's why.

And therein lies the beauty of having a plan. Failure then comes as a complete surprise.

Well, that plan obviously wasn't very well thought out.

So how can we turn that state of affairs (vision fishing) around?

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Re: Colors in water confusion

Postby Ronje » Fri Jun 25, 2021 2:28 pm

So how can we turn that state of affairs (vision fishing) around?

We've covered a lot of topics individually in previous posts. turbidity, color reversal, effect of no blue receptor in bass eyes, sunlight/twilight zones, tannin etc..etc..

There is one important color subject that we haven't covered yet. How we can make a color lure brighter to increase its visibility.

Better go back and see what the USN was doing about that sort of stuff in 1967.

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/661156.pdf.

They were trying to use color to conceal things underwater.

They were also trying to use color to lay out highly visible "paths" underwater for others to follow.

The tool they used was fluorescence.

It worked for them so it'll work for us too (but we'd better learn a bit about it though if we're gonna be vision/visibility fishing using fluorescence).
Last edited by Ronje on Sat Jun 26, 2021 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Colors in water confusion

Postby micropterus » Fri Jun 25, 2021 5:13 pm

Why has the color combination black/blue been popular and effective for bass fishing since forever? Especially for crawfish imitations.
There ARE blue crawfish.
Why would Mother Nature bother with blue crawfish if the bass can’t distinguish the color?
Have some fun out there .... Enjoy that time on the water !!

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Re: Colors in water confusion

Postby Ronje » Fri Jun 25, 2021 5:44 pm

Maybe Mother Nature didn't put blue crawfish on the earth just for bass. Maybe she didn't put black crawfish on the earth for bass either.

Maybe blue crawfish and black crawfish were put on the earth for other reasons.

Black/blue lure combination successful and popular for bass?

If you're actually contrast fishing for bass (under the right circumstances), that's probably a fair statement.

Look back at the previous posts about bass only seeing dark blue as black and about contrast fishing and the color black.

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Re: Colors in water confusion

Postby Ronje » Fri Jun 25, 2021 5:58 pm

Fluorescence

Objects (like lures) have colour paint pigments on their surface which are formulated to reflect a certain colour back to the viewer. All other colours are absorbed.

So an object painted green reflects green light and absorbs everything else. An object painted red reflects red light and absorbs…etc…etc.

The brightness of the colour reflected is dependent on the state of agitation of the molecules of the pigment painted on the object. So how do we raise the energy level of the paint pigment to make it “brighter”?

We use special additives in the paint which are sensitive to other forms of light (higher frequency electromagnetic radiation .......like UV).

The UV light causes the "special" paint molecules to gain energy and become agitated (become brighter).

Sound complicated? Probably but those words simply translate to paint an object with special paint and hit it with some UV light thus causing it to become brighter.

Cause it to “fluoresce”.

Raising the agitation state of the molecules doesn’t change the wavelength (change the color). It merely makes the existing colour “brighter”. More colour results in being able to be seen from greater distances.

That's the simplicity of it.

Colors further away in wavelength from UV radiation can be made to fluoresce more than colors closer in wavelength to UV.


Screenshot (574).png



Look at the color bar. It has numbers on it.

On the RHS (towards red color) it has the number 780 (in white) .

On the left had side towards purple/violet it has the number 380 (in white)

Those are the ends of the visible color spectrum.

Just past the purple/violet color on the LHS is UVA with the number 318 above it.

Those numbers are the wavelengths.

UVA has a low wavelength--318 while red has a long wavelength 780.

Remember that the wavelength furtherest away from UV (318) fluoresces the most.

That's red.

Colors going closer towards UVA (318) are (in turn) orange, chartreuse/yellow and then green with each one fluorescing a little less as we go further left.

Blue (460) isn't far from UVA (318) and only just fluoresces. (Bass can't see blue anyway - fluorescent or not).

Indigo and violet/purple are too close to UVA (318) to bother trying.

(bit more to come.......computer has been zigging when it should have been zagging so it was hard to get this bit on fluorescence up at all)

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Re: Colors in water confusion

Postby Ronje » Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:28 pm

Remember that colors green to red penetrate lake water better than blue, indigo, violet.

So it'd be really helpful if we could buy fluorescent colored lures between green and red.

Remember also that bass eyes are specifically tuned for green and red so fluro colors of green and/or red would be a "double bonus" as far as visibility to a LMB is concerned.

Ever tried to buy lures like that? They're few and far between and saddled with names sounding little angry alphabets.

Any fluro paint on them is like a dab here or a dab there similar to a perfume testing or wine tasting competition.

So what to do about that.

Lets buy some lures and paint our own with fluro spray paint. Make our own "real fluro" lures.

So down to the tackle store I went looking for a suitable lure to paint and I found this (packaging removed).

UV BRIGHT the packaging sticker proudly stated.

P5200163[1].JPG.png


I suspected that the fluorescence would only apply to the orange “whiskers” as fluorescent white is difficult to manufacture.

However, the store assistant assured me that firstly it wasn’t a fluorescent lure but was in fact a UV lure. It radiated UV light apparently. A real UV lure. My lucky day.

I declined to ask if this lure was like Superman with Xray/UV vision.

And was it a real UV lure?

No...Of course it wasn't.

It wasn't even a fluorescent lure apart from a couple of whiskers.

Here's what it looked like when I tried it out with a UV torch at home later next to a couple of others that I'd painted previously.

P5200161[1].JPG.png


Its the lure in the centre. Vanished with a bit of UV on it's chin so it was safe from a fish.
Last edited by Ronje on Sat Jun 26, 2021 12:58 pm, edited 7 times in total.

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Re: Colors in water confusion

Postby Ronje » Fri Jun 25, 2021 8:03 pm

Like humans, LMB do not have eye receptors that are sensitive to UV light. Human eye receptors only go as far as visible violet and bass eye’s don’t even go beyond green.

Now that we know how to generate fluorescence via special paint pigments and ultra-violet light, lets stop and think for a minute.

Obviously the perfect choice of colours to paint with “fluro paint” would be red and green because these are the 2 colours that bass eyes are tuned to see best.

Have a look at these lures which I painted with plain red and green fluro paint (painted separately ‘cos we’re not using striped paint).

It was when I was experimenting with fluorescent patterns. Body pattern taped and then over-sprayed with aerosol fluro spray can
P4030024.png


Pretty dismal looking lot. They look a bit dark because I used a gray undercoat after I'd scuffed the original paint off.

If I'd used a white undercoat they'd be brighter red and green.

Do ‘ya think that a bass would see these things on a sunny day?

How about now with some UV light thrown into the mix.

P4030025.png


Note the bibs. Quite shallow and there's a reason for that.

Except the one on the right. its about 6-8 ft. It was the model for lure 4 in that thing on visibility earlier.

Did we see that the bib on the deeper diver has been painted fluro red as well? Bass can see red best of all 'cos that's what their eyes are specifically tuned to, so give them plenty to see. Paint the bib.

Note also what happens to the hooks under UV.
Last edited by Ronje on Sat Jun 26, 2021 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Colors in water confusion

Postby Ronje » Sat Jun 26, 2021 12:11 pm

I made a comment in the last post about the silver hooks vanishing under UV.

Well, UV comes from the sun and we can't stop it penetrating the water. So it enhances any fluro color in the water but not probably to the same degree as a "UV" torch (more concentrated beam).

A fluro color will indeed brighten up with reduced concentration but not as brightly as in the images.

Anyway, the "UV" torch as we know it isn't UV at all.

But just get back to those silver hooks.

If "pretend UV" like in those torches can cause fading in those silver hooks, then what effect would real UV (that we can't stop) have? A bit more of an effect causing them to fade a bit more?

What about a silver lure then? Similar effect? We're not talking about "flash fishing" from the highly polished reflective surface of a spinning blade. Simply a dull silver lure. There are plenty of anglers who swear by dull silver lures.

What's the point of using a silver colored lure when UV causes the damned thing to "fade" like a photo from a "Back to the Future" movie? That's negating the whole purpose of a lure (something that attracts the attention of a fish).

Maybe we should cover the silver lure and/or the silver hooks with sunscreen to reduce the effect of the UV perhaps? Stop them fading.

Maybe its not really color attraction at all like these "silver lure" anglers think. Maybe they're lateral line fishing and don't know it.
Last edited by Ronje on Sat Jun 26, 2021 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Colors in water confusion

Postby Ronje » Sat Jun 26, 2021 1:34 pm

Contrast

One of the interesting things about watching a prizefight is how the "journeymen" go about their trade. Real professionals in not wanting to have a blow landed on them and never sticking their chin out.

I find it just as fascinating reading, listening or watching similar "journeymen" in the LMB fishing scene.

You'll hear 2 terms in particular used over and over being "natural colors" and "contrast" and the speed at which these guys jump from one term to the other is worthy of an olympic gymnastics gold medal.

So much so, that I'm left trying to work out what they're saying about these subjects long after I've forgotten what the question was.

Not a chin stuck out and not a blow landed on them. They're gone (uncontactable) and I still don't know what a natural color is nor what contrast they're talking about.

Natural colors I haven't got a clue about but everybody except me knows about it (apparently). And here's me thinking that ALL colors are natural.

However, I have done a bit of work on contrast (both color contrast and "shades of gray" contrast).

There’s something that we need to remember about the oft-quoted term contrast.

That is…contrast with what? Other colours maybe? Water backdrop color? Contrast with natural colors maybe?

Don't ask the LMB journeymen (even if you could contact them) 'cos they simply don't seem to stick around long enough to be asked. Contrast? U know! Contrast! That underwater stuff with natural colors!

As we go deeper and deeper into a lake, the light becomes insufficient to carry colour information. The depth where that happens depends upon the visibility of the water.

To make things easier for me to describe, I've borrowed a term from learned people involved in research in water visibility. Its called underwater zoning and refers to depths/thicknesses of water which have variable boundaries.

The 3 zones that we're interested in are the Euphotic, Disphotic and Asphotic Zones.

Didn't know that LMB fishing could involve such strange scientific sounding words?

Well, you should have 'cos the lure manufacturers use more confusing and more longwinded words than those describing their lures and we soon come to understand what they mean.

Now back to these zonal words.

Those terms are just fancy names for Sunlight zone, Twilight zone and Midnight zone.

Sunlight for where color reaches down to, Twilight for where the color doesn't reach and the gray light is fading and Midnight for where there's no color, no shade of gray and "as black as the inside of a witch's cat". (witch's cats are always black).

The boundaries of those zones vary with the visibility which in turn varies with the amount of light penetrating the water.

Screenshot (578).png


Pretty aren't they.

This image isn't showing how one color penetrates further than the other. It simply shows that they all lose color, fade to gray and eventually to black.

I picked red and green from habit 'cos those 2 colors are what LMB eyes are specifically tuned to.

Hint
Every color being different also has its own particular "fade to gray" shade. They're all different until they go black. Then they're ALL black. ALL the same.
Last edited by Ronje on Sat Jun 26, 2021 4:57 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Colors in water confusion

Postby Ronje » Sat Jun 26, 2021 4:06 pm

Here's an image of how you and I would see different colored blocks contrasting with a typical lake water backdrop (if we stuck our heads under the water).

Color contrast
Screenshot (582).png



In this case very pale green lake water.

Looks OK eh?

Even violet contrasts well.

Yellow, green and white not so well in the color contrast stakes.

To be able to contrast with the very pale green backdrop, being able to see the color properly in the first place is a very basic requirement.

We have a pretty flat eye response considering that we have 3 color cones (red, green and blue) PLUS we have a "rod" to see light with no color which is 1000 times more sensitive than our color receptors.

So our (human) eye response to the 3 basic colors looks like this.
Screenshot (580).png
Screenshot (580).png (78.84 KiB) Viewed 1123 times


That squiggly red line is my attempt at freehand drawing to show that our eye response is fairly flat across the board and that we can see the colors from indigo/violet (on the left) to red (on the right) very well.

The lesson here is that we can see most colors fairly well (not like our old friend the LMB) below.
Screenshot (513).png


The LMB can see red fairly well (like us) along with some orange. Then follows a bit of a gap between green and red. Then the LMB eye response drops to zip.

That gap plus the drop to zip must surely mean that LMB don't see colors as well or the same as we see colors (and they don't).

We went over this stuff previously and all I wanted to do here was remind you of the differences.

Having done that, we can safely move on now to how that LMB eye response affects the CONTRAST stuff that these LMB "journeymen" talk about.
Last edited by Ronje on Mon Jun 28, 2021 3:11 pm, edited 8 times in total.


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