Anglers Choice changes

[Ron T.]

I really like what AC has done for the AOY awards. Not just the first place AOY gets awarded any more . Now 1st. 2nd and 3rd. has 2009 season entry fees awarded . Now if we can just get our TOC back to Clear Lake .

[ken burk]

O.K.

[Guest]

There will be a TOC on Clear Lake every year. It may be a North TOC and it may be a South TOC - but every year there will be one open for all boats on Clear Lake.

BTW - It's always been 1st - 2nd and 3rd for AOY awards and free tourney entries for the following year. At least the last few years while I have been around.

[Ron T.]

Your right Tom , I was checking for any changes for 2008 and misread it .
Thanks for the clarification .

[DL]

Ron, make sure you read the rules very carefully and call Vern if you have anyquestions. Unless the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place team from EACH region get awards in the Angler of The Year race for THEIR region, things have not changed. In order for an Angler of the Year to get next year's basic entries paid, said Anglers of The Year have to finish at least third between themselves and the OTHER AOY's that are present at that regions TOC. Look at the results from the TOC at Havasu this year. Ken and I won Angler of The Year at Castaic, fished the TOC, but did not finish in the top 3 among the other AOY's that were present. Thus, WE GOT NOTHING.

There is also a grey area that allows Angler's Choice to interpret the rules how they see fit: Did you know that any two qualifiers can fish a TOC together? whether they fished as team during the season or not. I know this because two guys showed up at Havasu without partners, and then fished together. And I think they cashed a check...

Do your due diligence before you jump in the pool. I for one, will not be swimming(nor fishing) in that pool again.

[Pete Marino]

The way you put that seems to be a little misleading.
Saying...."It's always been 1st - 2nd and 3rd for AOY awards and free tourney entries for the following year." makes it sound like the top 3 in each region get free tournies the next year..
From what I heard from a current Team of the year, that is incorrect.. The Team of the year in each region has to basically compete against all the other teams of the year in the other regions at the championship and the top 3 AOY teams in that tournament get the free entries for the next year. Was I misinformed about that?
Is that correct??
They didnt get anything but an AOY plaque for winning AOY in their region because they didnt finish in the top 3 amoungst the other AOY teams at the Championship.
If that was correct then that doesnt seem fair to me. I think if a team wins the AOY title in the region they should get free tournaments the following year regardless of who they beat or dont beat at the Championship, just like all the other orgs do it.

Pete

[Ron T.]

Ok ok , my mistake , it seems nothing has changed . As I remember if you won AOY in your region you had to compete for the next season entries at the TOC among the other AOY winners from other regions . The top three AOY teams at the TOC had their entries awarded . Missunderstanding on my part .
Yes I did know two qualifiers from two seperate teams could join forces at the TOC .Thats fine with me . Rob and I have discussed fishing seperate this year and joining up at Clear Lake in 2008. We need to put him in a boat

[DL]

As long as you know the rules, you know how to use said rules, and can benefit from them....by all means fish it. I find it dissapointing that a team can create this much of an adavantage over the rest of the teams. I will probably get crushed for this veiw but what the heck.

The way the rules are written, team anglers are required to fish and qualify under certain rules. Then, when the TOC rolls around, the gray are rules are used when the less informed teams are not watching...By this I mean unless you carefully read the rules, you have no idea how it works. Yes, I was one of those uninformed teams that did not know how the system was run. I now know how it works...

[Barry Stanley]

RonT, for your info, it is the southwest region not the southern cal region. You belong to the southwest. As far as you referred to it as our region TOC and wanting to go back to Clearlake, it seems that you So.Cal guys come up a little short on being the big part of the southwest region. I have it figured a total of 1145 entries for all non-SoCal divisions and SoCal with 682 total entries. Mark, being the kind, good-hearted guy he is, puts a TOC on Clearlake for everyone that wants to fish it. That way, everyone gets what they want. Everyone that I speak to likes the TOC being rotated around the region. Looks like Lake Powell this year for the TOC if Allen Bratton gets the support that it looks like he has on paper. I hope to see everyone there since we have all supported Clearlake in the past. Even had a team from New Mexico fish the Clearlake event this past weekend.
I don't post here very offten but monitor it for interesting topics. This just got me going about "our TOC" so had to give you the facts.


Barry Stanley
US Anglers Choice tournament director
New Mexico division

[smpboy]

is their gonna be a dvl region this year? cause i wanna fish ac choice again just not sure which region yet.

[DL]

it seems that you So.Cal guys come up a little short on being the big part of the southwest region. I have it figured a total of 1145 entries for all non-SoCal divisions and SoCal with 682 total entries.

Barry, I guess I'm a little confused, are you saying there was a total of 1145 entries plus SoCal's 682? That would be more than a third of all entries were SoCal which is extremely good or are you saying that of the 1145 total entries 682 were SoCal which is more than half and actually closer to 60% if that’s the case then SoCal supplied more than half! I'm not trying to bust your chops just trying to understand.

As far as AOY's are concerned IMHO is quite a feat and they deserve the recognition as the best team of that year in that region. To be that consistent throughout the different seasonal conditions and making the right moves and adjustments is a hard thing to accomplish. How anyone chooses to reward them is up to the organization. If that’s the way AC chooses to do their AOY’s that’s their choice and it is up to the angler to know the rules going in.

It does save Anglers Choice a lot of money though. How many Anglers of the Year are there vs. how many actually get their entry fee paid?

After my calculations, only awarding 3 of the 7 AOY teams paid entries for '08, saves Angler's Choice $6500. Again, it doesnt matter how it is explained, reasoned,or justified....the system is set up for AC to maximize the benefits to ITSELF, not the Anglers. And before anyone gets their collective panties in a wad, I dont expect ANY circuit to not turn a profit.

It's just a matter of knowing the system and knowing the best way to exploit it.

[Guest]

Sorry you are unsatisfied with AC DL. Feel free not to "swim in that pool again"... but, let me clarify a few things for you.

You have the right to not like any of these rules and not fish AC if you don't want to. I am not knocking you at all. I know you very little personally - but, from what I do know of you - you are a great guy. I have also heard nothing but good stuff about you around the industry. I just thought I would clarify the rules... and they have been this way for quite some time.

#1 If you are AOY on any trail you fish against all the other AOY in your region at the TOC. You are fishing against 8 or 9 teams and the TOP 3 all receive CASH AND PRIZES valued at $3500, $2500, & 1500. The cash and prizes includes next years 7 free event package. It's been this way for as long as I can remember in angler's choice. If I remember correctly - both 1st and 2nd place in the AOY competition won Biosonix units plus quite a bit more. Keep in mind a few things.

---- On AC's Angler of the Year free events for the following year. AC pays that entry into the pot of the events they fish. Meaning the other anglers in that event still are fishing for the same amount of money as if you paid your entry fee. Do other tournament orgs do this... or do they just comp your boat and count 1 less paid boat? I am unsure... but, it is something you might want to research

---- Although you didn't finish in the top 3... you still received a plaque and will still recieve recognition in Bass West and on the website. Truthfully, I have talked to 6 AOY winners and 3 are for fishing for extra $$$ and 3 are against it.

#2 Angler's are allowed to team up with other anglers for a TOC. So as long as they both qualify for the event. Only 1 partner from any 1 qualifying team is permitted to fish solo or with another partner from a qualifying team who's partner is not fishing the event. This is subject to a Tournament Directors approval. Approval which is based mostly on taking advantage of the rule. This is done for two reasons.
A. It is much safer to fish with 2 people on a boat. Especially in a TOC where anglers can be on very unfamiliar water and on the water for multiple days in a row.
B. If one partner is unable to make the TOC due to family, work, illness, or other obligations it is not right to leave the other angler who paid into the TOC pot just as much as any other team sit at home.

Keep in mind - to date this has not been used to take advantage of Angler's Choice and/or the other anglers. This is under tournament directors discretion and we do our research before allowing two guys to fish together.

In the event you are referring to. Two guys showed up to fish solo... and didn't even know each other. Vern knew them both and offered to have them fish together to have a better "chance" and to be safer on unfamiliar water to at least one of them. I do not remember their names and am not sure if they got a check or not.

I will repeat -
You have the right to not like any of these rules and not fish AC if you don't want to. I am not knocking you at all. I know you very little personally - but, from what I do know of you - you are a great guy. I have also heard nothing but good stuff about you around the industry. I just thought I would clarify the rules... and they have been this way for quite some time.

P.S. I am working on a few things today and you might be sorry you aren't fishing AC next year! Good luck either way!

[DL]

Tom, the point of both my posts was to make sure people are aware of the rules that are in place in every organization, and to be fully educated on them before they decide to fish any particular trail. Unfortunately I was the one that did not fully understand the rules and how they worked, its my fault for not practicing what I preached.

There were at least 10 guys that congratulated us on getting next year's basic entries paid after the results were calculated. Obviously there was more than one team that did not know how the thing worked. I cannot stress my first point enough. If you dont know how the system works, talk to someone who does. And if you dont like it, dont patronize it...

The three seasons I fished AC at Castaic were all enjoyable. There are some very good anglers/teams in that region and I feel blessed to have won AOY against that class of fishermen. It took my two teams(I fished 05 & 06' with Terry Kratzer) the better part of 20 months to even cash a check in that region and when we did, it felt good. But the way it is set up, does not do justice to the amount of energy that every team in a region puts in. I know I sound bitter, and I obviously dont like the way Angler's Choice is structured. But it is what it is, and we can all choose where to fish and where not to.

Just know the rules inside and out before you make any decisions as to where to spend your money...

[Guest]

DL all completely understandable and I agree with you in making sure you know what you are getting yourself into.

A couple of things to consider -

#1 Do the other tournament trails actually pay the entry fee for the AOY boat in an event? Or do they simply not count it as a paid boat. This is something worth looking into - because if they do not - then the AOY free entries cost them $0. It does however cost their competitors that amount in their paybacks.

FYI - AOY free entries are paid by Angler's Choice and therefore considered a paid boat when calculating the paybacks of an event.

#2 The top 3 AOY received $7500 + worth of cash and prizes for the top 3. Truth be told it saves Angler's choice under $2K to do it this way. On the other hand - if we were to give all the AOY free entries and NOT count them as paid boats (as what MIGHT be done in other circuits) it would not cost AC a penny and therefore save AC $7500. I do not know what the other circuits do... but, before I fish a circuit I might ask how that is handled.

We do it this way because we think that the majority of the AOYs would prefer to fish for the 3 prizes rather than only get free entries and have no shot at winning the $3500 instead of just taking the $1225 in entry fees. Keep in mind that as with any tournament circuit a portion of that $1225 goes back to AC for the following years TOC and directors fees etc. I understand you are not one of those who wants to fish for that $3500, $2500 and $1500 and that is your right. However, had you placed top 3 you probably would have liked the prize package.

It may not be the best method - I don't know. But it is how we have always done it... and for some they like it. I am sure there are some who don't like it as well. I certainly hope you didn't fish the whole circuit just to get next years entry fee's paid.

Also - Congrats on the AOY... you are right there are some great fisherman in that region and you should be proud of that accomplishment!

[DL]

Fine. I have the plaque I got from Mike Iljin(damn fine plaque too) and a few from the season as well. Mark will run it as he sees fit.

At least we can agree on one thing, we all can choose what we fish and when we fish it...

[Guest]

Hey DL -

I am not arguing with you.. I, like you was just providing information on how it all works at AC.

To be honest, I actually agree with you... I'd like to see it AOY get free entries all year the following year as well. However, that wasn't my call and not my call for 2008. It's been that way ever since I have been fishing for bass and well before I started fishing AC.

As I said before winning AOY in that region is something to be proud of. I am sure you worked your tail off to win AOY

[Barry Stanley]

DL, what I am saying is SoCal had 682 entries total for all events and the non-SoCal circuits had 1145 entries total for all events. The grand total is 1827 entries with SoCal representing 37% of the the paid entries. Not trying to start trouble but I thought that the non-SoCal circuits just needed their due.
As far as the other points you brought up, I think Tom has clearified them. I have heard from all my AOYs and to the man, they like it the way it is now. I had a team under the old way where they got the entries paid the next year which was great but they like the idea of having a special pot just for the AOYs at the TOC. Gives it an added excitement fishing just against AOYs.

[Ron T.]

*NM*

[Vern]

First let me touch on the AOY payouts. There has been know change in what they recieve in the rules. It has been this way ever since I started fishing AC and then became a director.
As for a team that qualifies and one angler can't go to the TOC yes he can pick up another angler to fish with. The angler has to have qualified for the TOC, they then have to it approved by the Vice President, or Mark Mendez. The division director can not make that call.
There were several anglers that used this rule this year. Several from So Cal.
I will say this there were two cases where we felt that the Anglers were trying to stack the deck by picking up a ringer and they were not allowed to. You can be sure that any yeams that used this rule were really looked at by Mark, Danny, Tom and Myself before they were given permission.
As for the team that finished in the money when they came to the sign up they were by themselfs, and had never even met each other, and had know super knowledge of the lake.
I know that AC is always trying to accomidate the anglers. We will be having a booth at the Bassathon Jim Reyes will be running it. He will have a flyer with the 2008 schedules on it and another surprise that should Make The So Cal Anglers very happy.
I am sorry that I can not come this year but I have another obligation I have to do. I will miss seeing you all and especially miss the Bassathon itself. Vernl

[Ray L.]

Hey Vern.... I left you a voice mail with my address like you asked. Did you get it ?

[Guy Williams]

Well, I guess I'll have to be the A$$ and say what some are just dancing around. How did Kyle G and Tom M get to fish together then Vern? Man, it's hard to compete with two top 40 socal anglers in the same boat. Now boys be men, just ask the damm question and stop beating around Hippie's bush.
Guy Williams

[DL]

Hippie's bush??

[Vern]

Guy in my opinion you are not being a A$$ asking a legitmate question.
First a rule is a rule whether you are a novice angler or a experienced angler.
Tom qualified with Tim Klinger Kyle qualified with Art Berry. Since Art did not fish 4 tournaments with Kyle as the rule states he could not fish the TOC.
When Tom and Kyle asked if they could fish together, and they had both qualified to fish the TOC and as far as I knew they did not have a record of fishing together It was approved. As for it being hard going up against a team this strong, that is a matter of opinion.
Remember a rule is a rule know matter who you are. I made the decision to let them fish together. If you want to be mad at some one be mad at me not them, they are both class acts. Vern

[Guy Williams]

I'm not mad Vern, it didn't matter to me either way. I just want people to be men and ask the tough questions when they want an answer. I heard a lot of anglers questioning that team. So I threw it out there. Kyle and Tom are great guy's and anglers. I fished AC last year just for the TOC and it didn't matter what team nor who was on any team.
Guy Williams

[Vern]

Guy I never thought you were mad. It is Anglers like you that I respect. If you Have a question ask it like you did. Most times there ia a logical anser sometimes people don't like or agree. But at least they will get a answer from me.
I personaly am like you I believe it is better to bring things out in the open rather just grumble about it and gossip.
I would like to thank you for bringing it out in the open as I did not know there was an issue with some anglers. If you fished AC last year for the TOC you should love what we are going to do this year. C U on the water. Vern

[Guy Williams]

Look forword to hearing what AC has in store for us! Thanks Vern.
Guy Williams