Tournament Question

Kelly Ripa · Post by **Kelly Ripa** » Tue Apr 26, 2005 9:59 am

I recently decided that I could not tournament fish profitably and thought to drop the whole thing but was wondering what others think about the scheme of things. I still fish and enjoyed some aspects of the formats...Should a person only "Cherry Pick" his tournaments based on experiences and on past performance on different lakes and try and stack the odds for a check without traveling and the associated costs? What about fishing WON as a triple A? I wouldn't need my boat and I'd be up against others who are in the same perdicament....Someone else's style,technique,spot...Lot's to learn for a little coin.But with WON's points based on how both anglers perform...Maybe it would be a better bang for the buck...At least If I go down in flames I'd have been on the the water with a "Pro" What do you think Ray! Brian,Dave, Jeff Jue...All

SOCB_HawgHunter · Post by **SOCB_HawgHunter** » Tue Apr 26, 2005 10:09 am

I dont know you very well Kelly, we have met a few times. But I know that for me, if I am going to lose my hard earned money, its going to be based upon MY decsions and not as a AAA, hoping that the "pro" did some homework.

I think it would be more profitable to pay the 30.00 - 40.00 membership with a handful of tournament orgs and cherry pick T's on lakes that you know, and have dialed in. You would not be the first to ever do this.

Good luck to you Rippa, and with that said I guess I can never fish a T on Cachuma agian since I know that will be there to make some money!

HH

Mike MM · Post by **Mike MM** » Tue Apr 26, 2005 10:46 am

I think that fishing the US Open as a AAA would be your best chance at getting a check since the event is setup for multiple people to get checks each day. For example, the 5 biggest fish each day get a check for $2,000; the biggest stringer each day gets a check for $2,500 for both the Pro and the AAA. The top 20% at the end of the event get a check. About 35% of the folks get raffle prizes that are often worth more than the cost of the entry fee into the tournament (trips to Alaska, trolling motors, props, etc..). Your costs to fish as a AAA are lower overall than the Pro's since you would not spend a ton of time pre-fishing and hence you would not burn through twenty dollar bills at the gas pump like they were water. It costs $600 to fish the US Open as a AAA for the entry fee and your expenses would likely run around another $600.

As for fishing in a Won Bass Pro-AM as a AAA versus a team tournament just compare the two figures below and then you can make your own decision.

AAA Payout - This past weekend the AAA winner of the Delta event got a check for $1,650. The entry fee for the event was $225. So the winner made $1,425 dollars before expenses. Keep in mind that he was not in the options for this tournament. Now letâ€™s compare this to a large team tournament in terms of potential payback.

Team Payout - The winners of the Won Bass Team event at Lake Casitas got a check for $5,600 dollars. The winners of the Won Bass Team event at Lake Cachuma got a check for $4,625. So for the purposes of this comparison use the median between the two checks this is $5,112. The entry fee with all of the various options is about $300 (estimated). So one personâ€™s half of the entry fee is about $150 and with the payout of $5,112 being split by the team the person would get a check for $2,556 which before expenses would be a $2,406. Overall your expenses for a team event are much lower than a Pro-AM since the lakes are smaller (less gas), it is only one day versus two days, and you normally do not have expenses associated with lodging.

Kelly Ripa · Post by **Kelly Ripa** » Tue Apr 26, 2005 11:10 am

All points well taken and spoken.......One day tournaments Suck! As anyone can stick a pig on the hud and tear apart the fish you've been following with the different subtle changes that make that home field thing what we might think of as profitable...It would seem that one need only learn the 3-7 spots on the lake and fish them all day and crash and burn or keep up with the hud slingers. As I am a Known Hud slinger since the day after I aquired one and having finished Sowbelly! To my mind this is how you fish for money in this area. If you travel to Clear Lake Where I grew up..... The whole scene is different it is in essence the promised land for a put and take bass fishery. It is lucky that the fish there are full of toxins so no one will eat them! I like what I'm hearing and thought that the issues are not too complex. I had seen those payouts when Checking Ray Lierly's Demise on the Delta all the while thinking Yeah I've got a flipp'n Stic.and ........Ray I would pay for anybody of your cailbre.

Rip

Brian D. · Post by **Brian D.** » Tue Apr 26, 2005 12:41 pm

Cherry Picking aka Jackpot Bassing as its commonly referred to in other parts of the country is rampant. I define it as individuals or team fishermen that find a good bite, lasting pattern, or untapped area on one lake, then sign up the morning of the event, and win the tournament.

Its fairly obvious at our SoCalif lakes as well. Since there are a series of events on one lake - same lake, different organization week after week. You'll see the same guys in the top 5. Is this wrong? I don't think so. Are the fishermen lucky or untalented? Lucky, sometimes, untalented, definitely not. Now put those same fishermen on another body of water. Will they crash and burn? Perhaps.

Because of that scenario, some guys will not fish a particular lake because so-and-so team is fishing it. For others, myself included, it pushes me to do better and fish smarter.

Ask yourself this question... if you were fishing a lake and found a unique pattern that you could reliably execute and catch fish after fish without fail, would you enter the next tournament on that lake?

.............
.............
.............

Tic-toc, pencils down.

Not sure if this is financially feasible, but on a high level it would be cool to have organizations reward the long standing fishermen that fish the entire season with a better payout or more prizes/raffles, then the one-off fisherman who have no plans to fish another event with that circuit. In essence, longevity pays.

I plan on fishing the US Open this year as a AAA. I can afford the costs and have more vacation than last year. Could I go as a pro? Sure. Do I want to? No.

Why?

I feel this is the best bang for MY buck. Time wise, I can't afford to pre-fish for several weeks at Lake Mead. Therefore my best option to be a player in the game is to go as AAA. Its the luck of the draw. Hopefully I get paired with guys that have done their homework and are on fish. Fingers crossed.

B

Brian · Post by **Brian** » Tue Apr 26, 2005 1:58 pm

Kelly Ripa · Post by **Kelly Ripa** » Tue Apr 26, 2005 2:16 pm

smitty · Post by **smitty** » Tue Apr 26, 2005 3:47 pm

Your own weight, low cost, and given your fishing abilities, you should do well. In any Pro/Am format you are subject to the draw, but in non shared weight you only compete against what other Co Anglers can catch not what Gary Dobyns catches.
Just my 2 cents but give it a thought.
Smitty
> I recently decided that I could not
> tournament fish profitably and thought to
> drop the whole thing but was wondering what
> others think about the scheme of things. I
> still fish and enjoyed some aspects of the
> formats...Should a person only "Cherry
> Pick" his tournaments based on
> experiences and on past performance on
> different lakes and try and stack the odds
> for a check without traveling and the
> associated costs? What about fishing WON as
> a triple A? I wouldn't need my boat and I'd
> be up against others who are in the same
> perdicament....Someone else's
> style,technique,spot...Lot's to learn for a
> little coin.But with WON's points based on
> how both anglers perform...Maybe it would be
> a better bang for the buck...At least If I
> go down in flames I'd have been on the the
> water with a "Pro" What do you
> think Ray! Brian,Dave, Jeff Jue...All

Pete Marino · Post by **Pete Marino** » Tue Apr 26, 2005 3:56 pm

I think that if you are used to fishing from the front of the boat you will HATE being relagated to the back seat with no say so in terms of where to fish etc.. The problem with fishing as a AAA is that your only gonna finish well if you have a decent draw. Sure, you may get a couple good draws (pros) but theres a very good chance you'll get a couple yahoos. I drew some yahoo on day one at the us open 2 years ago that quit 3 hours early and basically ruined any chance I had a a good finish. Carissa drew Folkstad on day 1 at this past WON Havasu event. They had a good weight which put Carissa in line for a check if she did good on day 2 but her day 2 knucklehead quit on her 2 hours early which ruined any chance for her to place. In my opinion, the front of the boat is the place to be if your skills are up to par. At the same time there are guys who like to fish as AAAs and have done so for years i.e. Robert Schnieder, R. Samuel, just to name two. They seem to like it as AAAs. Although I dont think Robert liked being in the back of the boat at Havasu with his pros because they sight fished all day. I told him it was time for him to pony up and fish it as a pro next time because it was bacically a sight fish tournament. I sight fished both days and wouldnt let my AAAs sight fish, thats the way it goes.
As far as picking and choosing events to do according to past experiences..well thats not a bad idea but it doesnt assure you of cashing a check because things change and its often tuff to duplicate a successful pattern from a year prior. Just my thoughts. Pete Marino

Kelly Ripa · Post by **Kelly Ripa** » Tue Apr 26, 2005 4:34 pm

I am familiar with that story Pete...I've been backseated and what not...But if it doesn't help in the team sort of way ... Then again if guy's are sight fishing a two day event etc. shared format...I would have to fish something from the back that adds to the team...I Have not been fishing from my boat this year basically and it is so nice to just float out there and fish ...But I won AOL from the backseat in the Santa Barbara club many moons ago...Of course they were torqued about me fishing they're spots in the non-mixed format they had at the time...I don't mind being in the shadows...yes, we all like to catch fish...just put us near them and we can do the rest is sometimes the fun way to fish...Everstart...Yes Smitty I see the logic...

smitty · Post by **smitty** » Tue Apr 26, 2005 5:44 pm

Rip,
Maybe I am different but I give my Co Angler ever chance to do well. If It's a sight fish gig, I make sure I have other patterns going for me to fall back on. Maybe I am missing something but what goes around comes around. Like telling a Co Angler, go ahead this cove is loaded, you have one fish fill your limit...his response, dude, you are makin the cut save these fish...well I am sure after a great finish at clear lake he is making the Everstart Championship and if I draw him day 2 and I am pretty much out of it, or day one, day three or day four, he will get every chance to get his. I really respect Pete but I have just as many if not more stories of good Pro's I drew as a Co Angler/AAA. Guys like Gary Dobyns, Geroge Galletti, Gregg Guitterez, Jack Van Grow, although in shared weight formats but at the same time, I helped them and they helped me. I spent 1,250 a tournament for two years and won about six thousand. I have seen co anglers in Everstart spend the same and win huge amounts in non shared weight. Ask Gary Collins.
Smitty
> I am familiar with that story Pete...I've
> been backseated and what not...But if it
> doesn't help in the team sort of way ...
> Then again if guy's are sight fishing a two
> day event etc. shared format...I would have
> to fish something from the back that adds to
> the team...I Have not been fishing from my
> boat this year basically and it is so nice
> to just float out there and fish ...But I
> won AOL from the backseat in the Santa
> Barbara club many moons ago...Of course they
> were torqued about me fishing they're spots
> in the non-mixed format they had at the
> time...I don't mind being in the
> shadows...yes, we all like to catch
> fish...just put us near them and we can do
> the rest is sometimes the fun way to
> fish...Everstart...Yes Smitty I see the
> logic...

Brian Linehan · Post by **Brian Linehan** » Tue Apr 26, 2005 9:26 pm

I fished AAA for 3 years a long time ago and have had experiences both good and bad. However, the most important thing I took from being a AAA was that I knew how I would treat my AAA when I fished on the pro side.
It's real easy to backseat the AAA if you are an all to common pompous bass pro, but all of the intelligent pro's have learned how to utilize the skills and experience of their AAA's to win big. I would guarantee that a majority of the tournaments won include significant contributions from the backseater. Any pro who backseats a AAA who knows how to fish is an arrogant MORON.

The way I approach a pro tournament is that it's COMPLETELY up to me to catch a big sack. Anything the AAA contributes is pure gravy. There are many awesome AAA's that could and should fish as boaters and I wouldn't be surprised if many of them will outfish their pro's at Diamond Valley this weekend. In fact, if any AAA's are out there, I hope I draw you and you put 25 lbs. in the boat.

Granted, I have drawn a couple AAA's that were extremely green and caused distractions. However, for the most part your AAA is your team partner for the day, your netter, and more often than not your catcher.

See you all at DV!
Brian

Hippie/Mark · Post by **Hippie/Mark** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 7:52 am

There is a reason that in recent years the fishing orgs. have had to ask for spotters rather than AAA'a and some of those posts above are a reason.

I myself had very bad experiances in the AAA ranks and when I do fish a Pro/Am as a so-called Pro am very concsoius of boat postioning, extra rods etc. to make it the best day possible.

Trouble is my last few AAA's have been the pompous 19-22 year old that has caught more 5-8 lb fish than any of us combined!!! Yeah right!!

Oh Well least I am fishing, but I do perfer teams. The AAA thing is a either Great experiance or a bad one, the thing I would like to emphsize is AAA's should not bad mouth or stiff thier pro because the fish did not cooperate on that particular day!!! That is why it is called Fishing not catching!!

Hipster in No-Cal

Kelly Ripa · Post by **Kelly Ripa** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 8:31 am

For the time a effort put into this thread.I guess we have all had the backseat be a problem either way, it was my basic intent to try and get some factoids and opinions on this subject pro/con what you would do or have done and what did and didn't pan out. I consider myself a nutcase and am just thinking I can draw from a really vast and different set of resources here from people who have had to pay their way and are willing to share the experiences. I will have to ponder all of this. Thanks again

mark poulson · Post by **mark poulson** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:34 am

Larry Zepeda · Post by **Larry Zepeda** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 1:16 pm

Tell you the truth Kelly, I miss fishing the pro-ams. I think I spent 2 or 3 years fishing these events as a AAA. Although they can be expensive, they are a great place to learn tournament fishing regardless who you draw. I only stopped because I had priorities (family)and that meant I needed to stay closer to home and fish tournaments that were affordable. This year I set a goal to focus on one team tournament circuit that way I would not spread myself too thin. It has been a learning experience with ups and downs. I don't see anything wrong with picking lakes that you know. After all it's just fishing we are all out there to have fun and make some money at least to cover our entry fees lol.

Hope to see you on the water,

Larry

Kelly Ripa · Post by **Kelly Ripa** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 3:49 pm

I'm a think'n so Mark.

Tom Leogrande · Post by **Tom Leogrande** » Sun May 01, 2005 4:34 pm

Couple thoughts on these subjects.. Since I have been away from this site for a week or two.. I just read the entire thread..

First off: Kelly I see your point about not profiting from fishing events, as I have been donating for some time now. I actually got my money back with a 5th place finish this weekend at the AC Castaic tournamet... Just getting my money back felt like ( won! However, the reason I fish tournaments isn't to make money. That is the reason I work, to make money. If its solely about making money, 98 percent of us can work overtime on Saturdays instead of fishing a tournament and make a whole lot more money.

My #1 reason for fishing tournaments is for the competition. I love the feeling of competing. At times, I feel like I am not even in the competition, but more and more, I catch bigger and better fish and feel like I have a shot. For instance, just yesterday, with 13-14 lbs in the boat and looking at a 7 lber on a bed, I knew the tournament was right there in front of me. The adrenaline starts to flow and the body temperature goes up. This is the feeling I am looking for! (about that 7 lber when she was nice enough to eat my bait I snapped my line off in her mouth and gave her some lip jewelry for a week, and myself a 5th instead of a 1st, but I learned something) As for the feeling that overcame me, granted its not a skinny post between a 210 lb free safety and a 250 lb linebacker like I used to get and love, but, its pretty close and I don't have the control of my bodily functions on the line either!

The second reason I fish tournaments is because I meet, make friends with and learn from a lot of very talented fisherman. I just started a list to include here of really good guys that I have met, befriended and learned from, but the list went on and on, and I didn't include everyone.. Fact is, if I am just fishing for fun, I can chit chat with guys on the water on occassion but, actually meeting and learning from the super guys and super fisherman that we are blesses with here in southern cal is not only fun and informative, but pretty cool as well.

Truth of the matter, if I wanted to make money, I would go back to golfing, where I can golf in tournaments every weekend and pretty much cash a check every weekend.. but, golf is different, in fact every sport that I have been a part of is different than fishing. This sport has a lot of good people who share a passion for catching a small green fish. Its hard to explain the difference, but the easiest way for me to explain it is that the people are just more fun, friendly and willing to share more than any other sport. Maybe its because its us against the fish, rather than us against us. Such as Golf, Bowling, softball, whatever... I have made better friends with some of my competitors than I have on some of my actual teammates on some of my football teams I have played for over the years.

Ok, back to my point if I have one... If you are fishing for a profit, you should give it up. Granted it would be nice to cash checks like Matt Newman, Mike Brakebill, Bill Siementel and Jared Lintner. However, there are only a few of these guys and truthfully, I don't see myself doing that for quite some time, if ever.

Now if you are fishing for the thrill of competition, the comraderie of the guys in the sport and the chance to cash a check, then you are on the right page. I guess you have to figure out the reasons you sign up for these events and then decide if you are getting what you want out of it.

My thoughts on the Pro-Am thing

Shared Weight: Sure it is for some. However for me, the thrill of competition goes out the window when I am not the one making the W-L decision with my efforts. This isn't always 100% accurate all the time.. but, generally, the decisions of the guys on the front of the boat are the ones that factor in on whether you cash a check or not. Fishing as an Am is kind of like being a backup Quarterback for the New England Patriots last year.. No offense to whoever it is, but, how much pride can you really feel in a Superbowl ring, considering all you did was warm up and where a Reebok sponsored baseball cap on the sidlines all year? Fishing it as a Pro would give me more of what I am looking for.

Non-Shared Weight: Well, this is a bit closer to what I would be interested in. Financially it would be tough to go fish knowing that its just a competition for who can catch the best Pro's Slop. In this case, I wouldn't know if it would be better to get a bad pro knowing that he/she's poor fishing abilities would leave more fish for me to catch or a good Pro knowing he/she would put me around more fish? Either way, the Pro pretty much has to pass it up or miss it for me to get it.

TomG · Post by **TomG** » Tue May 10, 2005 4:51 pm

What is the AAA you guys are talking about? Is that with a particular organization like WON Bass?

ash · Post by **ash** » Wed May 11, 2005 12:20 am

propgun · Post by **propgun** » Wed May 11, 2005 6:57 am

Tom I think you may have just put this whole thing into perspective but I would have to agree with you. I don't fish for the money although the thought of maybe cashing a check is nice but meeting people and improving my fishing is important.
Good imput
tight lines
Ron licari

Cooch · Post by **Cooch** » Thu May 12, 2005 8:39 am

"What am I doing this for?"

If you're in it to learn, the shared weight Pro-Ams is the way ta go.

If you're in it for the comraderie and experience of competition, teams and specialty events will satisfy that need.

If yer in it to make money, welcome to the world of professional bass fishing, as a business, where only a fortunate few across this land have put together a plan to be succesful and profitable. There are very few anglers, and let's just look at those out west, who are really fishing tournaments and being profitable just by cashing checks in the tournaments they fish.

Gary Dobyns is one such angler, who in most years, comes out ahead in his tournament winnings. But rest assured, he's making as much if not more coin with sponsorships, endorsements, writing(thanks ta ghost writers HAR!) and speaking appearances. This is all part of his business plan, and entails far more than just fishing tournaments. And many times, as Gary will tell you, the commitment to those sponsors who pay your bills, take away from the success you have on the water.

Then there are a select few like Bobby Barrack and Steve Sapp, who happen to live on a body of water that has more tournaments in a year here on the Delta, than most lakes combined, that simply just dominate that body of water, and really have no need to go anywhere else due to the number of events held there. You average 1 boat a year, or in Steve's case sometimes 2 and 3, you've got the makings of a profitable business. Toss in a guide's liscense and 100 trips or more a year, the potential to come out ahead is very high.

Fishing tournaments for the average guy, and being profitable, is a pipe dream for most of us. I know, I've been there and have focused my efforts in other areas of the bass fishing industry to build my business to a point where I can eventually retire and do this full time. In doing that, I've come to realize, the costs associated with traveling around chasing the tournament check, is a break even oppurtunity at best most years. So fishing tournaments for profit, is an aspect that I've removed from my business plan. I still cherry pick one ever now and then, but the ones I fish are part of an ultimate plan, like only fishing the BASS events with the goal of reaching the "Classic", which in of itself, can be a great oppurtunity for a financial windfall allong the way. Guiding, sponsorships, speaking, writing and sales have become a bigger factor in my plan for my fishing business.

Even out there on the Proffessional Tours, such as BASS and FLW, there is definately big bucks to be made in winnings. And those that are succesful at that level, most don't rely soley on the winnings for income. Those that do, find the road bumpy and struggle from event to event. Most have some means of financial backing to carry them for several years until they reach the point where all the financial pieces fall into place for them. We have all too many times heard of the guy and family who has traveled the tour and road the wagon of hard luck till they hit the big one. You need to have some strong goals and values to put yourself and yer family through that. Sometimes, some very tough decissions must be made to take that path.

It's really all about what you want out of fishing Kelly. To look at fishing for a positive cash flow and income, you'll need to prepare, plan and treat it like a business. Otherwise, it's just a hobby that we need to approach every day with the intent of bringing some great fun into our lives through that hobby!

Good luck in the path you choose!

Kelly Ripa · Post by **Kelly Ripa** » Thu May 12, 2005 11:38 am

Again, Thanks all for the input and real thinking that went into the responses of this thread......Years back I stomped the locals but good

. This however backfired on me as someone cut out my oil injection line because I'm A. Basically a Jerk! and B. Whoever it was didn't want to see me on the lake the following week. I was not the sole person to be scr*wed as I ONLY had to fork over $7500 to get the motor up and running again. The President of the Santa Barbara Bass Club didn't fair as well as me as He lost his entire engine the week after to the same guy " In my opinion " when someone stuffed his oil tank with plastic worms and he had to fork over the price of an entire new engine. I split the tournament scene as my wife was none to thrilled with this crap. One divorce later I was toying with fishing tournaments again when my new significant other watched Arron at the Classic and wondered outloud why I didn't fish for money. I fished the B.A.S.S. Region 7 and felt fairly comfortable with my results. However, when I crunched the numbers at the end of the year I hadn't come close to paying my way and that was all local stuff without any serious traveling at all. When the time came to fish in the finals I had to decide between two circuits I had qualified in as to which was going to give me the better odds when it came to the bottom line...Money. Cooch you are 100% correct. It is a pipe dream if I think I can balance this all out moneywise. I think we would all like to spend more time in the winners circle but in my case I cannot get any assembalance of a winning type of scenario while balancing Aerospace/Fishing...Something had to give and originally my plan was to DUMP the whole fishing for bucks thing and just fish. I could not support the effort myself and I couldn't take a dime sponsershipwise as I would look somewhat akin to an idiot when I couldn't show up for a tournament or whatever because I was busy doing the VooDoo I do on Satellite's and space hardware. So faced with that reality I dropped back off the radar. I know I hurt Dave Nichols feelings bad and Ray L. will never give me the time of day again but I will come to some sort of answer some day. I would like to add that the minute I stopped the tournament thing I started having excellent results in the livewell AND I was able to laugh at things that would have driven me to distraction had I been fishing in a contest. I really feel it's my problem and at sometime I will deal with it. When talking to other Angler's at my last tournament I found that I was not the only one in this boat and some of these guy's whom I highly regard were in the same boat....Essentially donating....and NOBODY likes to be in that cycle. I am still on the water and am still working this out in my mind and I truely appreciate this forum when it comes to this kind of thing because of the understanding that comes from the rank and file. I'll see you all on the water!

Rip

Ray L. · Post by **Ray L.** » Thu May 12, 2005 11:51 am

Just call and I will tell you what time it is....I thought the aerospace industry was on satelite time or whatever.....Just joking, give me a call.
Ray L.

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