A day to remember.

[Jeff C.]

Today president Barack Obama signed an executive order reversing an 8 year old ban on federal funding of human embrionic stem cell research. This has been a long time coming. For too long we've had an administration that openly distorted and twisted science for their own political agenda. Finally we have a president who believes that the scientists themselves are the best to judge the validity and merit of scientific research.

For all of us who have had loved ones suffer or die of terrible diseases such as Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, diabetes, and heart disease, all of which stem cell research holds great promise, let me be the first to say it... today is a fine day indeed!

http://www.time.com/time/health/article ... 61,00.html

[Greg_Cornish]

Finally something every literate person believes in.

[StockOption]

I guess, but one could argue (if so inclined) that BHO just thumbed his nose to vast numbers of US citizens who believe life starts at conception. BHO is just being a typical politican executing and implementing his views and his political agenda.

http://edition.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS ... index.html

[Greg_Cornish]

I guess, but one could argue (if so inclined) that BHO just thumbed his nose to vast numbers of US citizens who believe life starts at conception. BHO is just being a typical politican executing and implementing his views and his political agenda.

http://edition.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS ... index.html

Here Kurt, I fixed that for you.

I guess, but one could argue (if so inclined) that BHO just thumbed his nose to a few misinformed US citizens who believe that stem cell research has something to do with life starting at conception. BHO is an atypical politican executing and implementing the views of the majority of U.S. Citizens and his political agenda.

http://edition.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS ... index.html

[jiggin_pimpin]

It was a good day indeed!

[Thunnus Salmoides]

Today president Barack Obama signed an executive order reversing an 8 year old ban on federal funding of human embrionic stem cell research. This has been a long time coming. For too long we've had an administration that openly distorted and twisted science for their own political agenda. Finally we have a president who believes that the scientists themselves are the best to judge the validity and merit of scientific research.

For all of us who have had loved ones suffer or die of terrible diseases such as Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, diabetes, and heart disease, all of which stem cell research holds great promise, let me be the first to say it... today is a fine day indeed!

http://www.time.com/time/health/article ... 61,00.html

Yes, I agree. We as a society need to be able to distinguish between valuable life and inconsequential life. A human embryonic stem cell is not a human. Neither is a fetus. We will need this attitude as we proceed with Universal Health Care. It will be necessary to make the tough choices about those who live and those who die. The government will not be able to care for everyone with all the care they need so decisions will have to be made. The elderly and handicapped will have to accept their fate as they will not be worthy enough receive the government resources.

http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticle ... 1442335006

[StockOption]

Today president Barack Obama signed an executive order reversing an 8 year old ban on federal funding of human embrionic stem cell research. This has been a long time coming. For too long we've had an administration that openly distorted and twisted science for their own political agenda. Finally we have a president who believes that the scientists themselves are the best to judge the validity and merit of scientific research.

For all of us who have had loved ones suffer or die of terrible diseases such as Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, diabetes, and heart disease, all of which stem cell research holds great promise, let me be the first to say it... today is a fine day indeed!

http://www.time.com/time/health/article ... 61,00.html

Yes, I agree. We as a society need to be able to distinguish between valuable life and inconsequential life. A human embryonic stem cell is not a human. Neither is a fetus. We will need this attitude as we proceed with Universal Health Care. It will be necessary to make the tough choices about those who live and those who die. The government will not be able to care for everyone with all the care they need so decisions will have to be made. The elderly and handicapped will have to accept their fate as they will not be worthy enough receive the government resources.

http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticle ... 1442335006

Are you insinuating that BHO did this as pure political theater? That he did this to mainly satisfy his political base as the scientific debate has moved on to the more promising arena of adult stem cells?

No way, everyone knows BHO is way WAY above politicizing an issue such as embryomic stem cell research.

Right.

This is my favorite line from that editorial:

Bush's executive order banned federal funding only of new stem cell lines. Neither federal funding of existing lines nor private funding was banned. In fact, Bush was the first president to spend any money on ESCR at all. Clinton spent zero.

[Thunnus Salmoides]

Today president Barack Obama signed an executive order reversing an 8 year old ban on federal funding of human embrionic stem cell research. This has been a long time coming. For too long we've had an administration that openly distorted and twisted science for their own political agenda. Finally we have a president who believes that the scientists themselves are the best to judge the validity and merit of scientific research.

For all of us who have had loved ones suffer or die of terrible diseases such as Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, diabetes, and heart disease, all of which stem cell research holds great promise, let me be the first to say it... today is a fine day indeed!

http://www.time.com/time/health/article ... 61,00.html

Yes, I agree. We as a society need to be able to distinguish between valuable life and inconsequential life. A human embryonic stem cell is not a human. Neither is a fetus. We will need this attitude as we proceed with Universal Health Care. It will be necessary to make the tough choices about those who live and those who die. The government will not be able to care for everyone with all the care they need so decisions will have to be made. The elderly and handicapped will have to accept their fate as they will not be worthy enough receive the government resources.

http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticle ... 1442335006

Are you insinuating that BHO did this as pure political theater? That he did this to mainly satisfy his political base as the scientific debate has moved on to the more promising arena of adult stem cells?

No way, everyone knows BHO is way WAY above politicizing an issue such as embryomic stem cell research.

Right.

This is my favorite line from that editorial:

Bush's executive order banned federal funding only of new stem cell lines. Neither federal funding of existing lines nor private funding was banned. In fact, Bush was the first president to spend any money on ESCR at all. Clinton spent zero.

This is my favorite line:

If embryonic stem cells are so promising, why aren't venture capitalists lining up and why does ESCR need federal funding? Indeed, let's stimulate science, not ideology.

It's like they read this post.

[FishaHallic]

I guess, but one could argue (if so inclined) that BHO just thumbed his nose to vast numbers of US citizens who believe life starts at conception. BHO is just being a typical politican executing and implementing his views and his political agenda.

http://edition.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS ... index.html

I believe there is an equally vast number of people that believe embryonic stem cell research can help man now and in the future. Just like a vast number of people believe in global warming and a vast number of people believe in evolution but yet the right wing does not believe in these "theories".

[jiggin_pimpin]

Science Rules! Creation Drools!

[Greg_Cornish]

This is my favorite line:

If embryonic stem cells are so promising, why aren't venture capitalists lining up and why does ESCR need federal funding? Indeed, let's stimulate science, not ideology.

It's like they read this post.

Do venture capitalists still exist?

[StockOption]

This is my favorite line:

If embryonic stem cells are so promising, why aren't venture capitalists lining up and why does ESCR need federal funding? Indeed, let's stimulate science, not ideology.

It's like they read this post.

Do venture capitalists still exist?

Very good point Greg.

LOL

Certainly not if BHO has any say.

[Marty]

There are only two differences between what Bush did and BHO did. We now know that full grown stem cells work better then embryonic stem cells and now you are paying for the less of the two. That is a day to remember and only liberals would call that a victory!

What is even better is now you are paying for woman in other countries to have abortions yes this is a day to remember!

Don’t worry Greg – I will tell the doctors to take care of you – you don’t cost that much.

[Greg_Cornish]

Certainly not if BHO has any say.

Yeh 50 days in office and he's ruined Venture Capitalism, right?

[StockOption]

Certainly not if BHO has any say.

Yeh 50 days in office and he's ruined Venture Capitalism, right?

Well in 50 short days he certainly hasn't helped - at all. He has obviously been very busy focusing his efforts on taking down Rush, a president has to have his priorities. I also imagine he's used a lot of his time pouring over the budget line by line in his quest to eliminate and reduce the number of earmarks within it.

LOL

Man I think back like 3 years ago.......I had a lot more cash, my companies stock price was 4-5 times higher and my home price was 100-150K higher. Yep that was miserable and not working for me. Sucked.

Night Greg

[jiggin_pimpin]

This is my favorite line:

If embryonic stem cells are so promising, why aren't venture capitalists lining up and why does ESCR need federal funding? Indeed, let's stimulate science, not ideology.

It's like they read this post.

Do venture capitalists still exist?

Very good point Greg.

LOL

Certainly not if BHO has any say.

Let me assure you, VC's are definitely alive and well. They are just tightening the belt. It's not like the wild 1990's when you come up with a decent idea and get mass funding. VC's have learned a few things since then.

No matter how much I dislike Bush, this situation we're in is not entirely his fault. While it is true that the man knows nothing about econ, his administration failed to see the warning signs and try to head'em off. More of the Reactionary process we see so much of today.

If you had to blame anyone, it would be Clinton and 3 Repubs. Google the GLB Act of 1999.

[BassinFever]

[
No matter how much I dislike Bush, this situation we're in is not entirely his fault. While it is true that the man knows nothing about econ, his administration failed to see the warning signs and try to head'em off. More of the Reactionary process we see so much of today.

If you had to blame anyone, it would be Clinton and 3 Repubs. Google the GLB Act of 1999.

Dang, this is the smartest thing I have heard you say and I applaud you for it. One more thing though. Bush and his "Croanies" Did try and stop it, but the Democratic house and senate wouldn't listen and just let the train run off the tracks!!!!!!

[Thunnus Salmoides]

Let me assure you, VC's are definitely alive and well. They are just tightening the belt. It's not like the wild 1990's when you come up with a decent idea and get mass funding. VC's have learned a few things since then.

No matter how much I dislike Bush, this situation we're in is not entirely his fault. While it is true that the man knows nothing about econ, his administration failed to see the warning signs and try to head'em off. More of the Reactionary process we see so much of today.

If you had to blame anyone, it would be Clinton and 3 Repubs. Google the GLB Act of 1999.

Please explain how the GLB Act of 1999 affected the financial meltdown. I believe it started with the Community Reinvestment Act in 1994. Government with good intentions lead by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac lending to unqualified borrowers. Barney Frank and Chris Dodds impeding any oversight of the companies. There is plenty of blame to go around but start at the heart of the problem.

http://www.ibdeditorials.com/series11.aspx

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxMInSfanqg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPSDnGMz ... re=related

[FishaHallic]

[
No matter how much I dislike Bush, this situation we're in is not entirely his fault. While it is true that the man knows nothing about econ, his administration failed to see the warning signs and try to head'em off. More of the Reactionary process we see so much of today.

If you had to blame anyone, it would be Clinton and 3 Repubs. Google the GLB Act of 1999.

Dang, this is the smartest thing I have heard you say and I applaud you for it. One more thing though. Bush and his "Croanies" Did try and stop it, but the Democratic house and senate wouldn't listen and just let the train run off the tracks!!!!!!

Democratic house and senate? I believe the republicans were in control of the house and senate during the first 6 yrs of the Bush administration.

[getalife]

Embryonic stem cell research has been going on for many years, it just hasn't been receiving federal funds. NOTHING has ever came out of this research, and no one can say that this research will EVER cure anything. FOLLOW THE MONEY! Embryonic stem cells have not differentiated into any specific body tissue, which is why some would have you believe they are the ultimate cure for every ailment. Stem cells are present in almost all human tissue, and these cells have differentiated into specific tissue types. Research seems to indicate that, someday, stem cells from a persons nervous system could be used to regenerate that persons nervous system, and cells from the liver could be used to repair the liver. So far, no one has demonstrated that it is even conceivable that the undifferentiated stem cells from a human embryo can ever produce anything except large grants for the researchers. FOLLOW THE MONEY!

So, why go down that road? Regardless of when you think life begins, harvesting human embryos for research crosses a line that just should not be crossed. Whats next... let the embryo get to 6 or 7 months so we can harvest organs, or maybe 8 months so we can harvest bone marrow. Heck, lets let the darn thing get 1 or 2 years old so we can get even more out of it. Where do you liberals draw the line and how do you justify it.

[FishaHallic]

Embryonic stem cell research has been going on for many years, it just hasn't been receiving federal funds. NOTHING has ever came out of this research, and no one can say that this research will EVER cure anything. FOLLOW THE MONEY! Embryonic stem cells have not differentiated into any specific body tissue, which is why some would have you believe they are the ultimate cure for every ailment. Stem cells are present in almost all human tissue, and these cells have differentiated into specific tissue types. Research seems to indicate that, someday, stem cells from a persons nervous system could be used to regenerate that persons nervous system, and cells from the liver could be used to repair the liver. So far, no one has demonstrated that it is even conceivable that the undifferentiated stem cells from a human embryo can ever produce anything except large grants for the researchers. FOLLOW THE MONEY!

So, why go down that road? Regardless of when you think life begins, harvesting human embryos for research crosses a line that just should not be crossed. Whats next... let the embryo get to 6 or 7 months so we can harvest organs, or maybe 8 months so we can harvest bone marrow. Heck, lets let the darn thing get 1 or 2 years old so we can get even more out of it. Where do you liberals draw the line and how do you justify it.

When you post a reasonable responce instead of something so far fetched that would make Lush Rimbaugh laugh then maybe we can discuss this further.

[getalife]

Fish,
How did I know you would be the first one to respond. You think that is far fetched? I suggest you educate yourself and get back to me. You are so quick to swallow the liberal load. Whether its global warming, embryonic stem cell research, or BHO's porkulis package... You just seem to be on the wrong side of every argument. My degree is in biology, and I have many many friends in this field. Just what is your level of education and experience that makes you so sure. I didnt think so. You are just regurgitating what you hear from your left wing sources.
Tell me ONE thing, ONE cure, ONE medical advancement that has ever come out of embryonic stem cell research. You cant because there is none.

[FishaHallic]

I'm sorry, I should have been more clear. I don't know if you have an argument or not on the stem cell research issue but when you bring up raising children to harvest organs you lose any credibility. I guess what I am saying is your stem cell argument may or may not be valid but when you bring up something so very far fetched to try and prove your point like raising children to harvest organs people realize that you may be a right wing wacko and there is no talking to those.

[FishaHallic]

BTW, I think you used your "biology" degree argument on global warming issue and now your "biology" degree is gonna help prove that embryonic stem cell research is not gonna work, this must be one hell of a degree?

I got news for you, you said it yourself, it's called RESEARCH, maybe I missed something but no one is claiming it's a done deal but they are claiming it has promising results. I guess your type don't like research which seems very strange for someone with a "biology" degree. Your own argument is my best evidence that you don't have a clue.

You don't want research and you say you have a degree in "biology" which I am sure has a lot of research to prove points. My guess is your "biology" degree does not tell you that stem cell research can do nothing but it's your backward thinking that you picked up from your religion and your party that makes you spread your thoughts.

Why don't you tell us what your "biology" degree tells you about evolution?

[FishaHallic]

Fish,
You just seem to be on the wrong side of every argument.

Right, I am on the wrong side of every argument. When all you can do is complain about a democrat who has been in office for less than 2 months when your buddy GW damn near brought the country down and you think he is the greatest.

When you get a clue get back with me.

[Jeff C.]

Once again Getalife it appears that you really have no clue about how science is done. Personally, I have a hard time believing that you have a degree in anything let alone biology given the outright ignorance you have expressed on this forum regarding anything scientific in nature.

No problem, just like in the case of global warming, I'm glad to give you a primer on the state of stem cell science. First of all, let me remind you how science is funded. The US federal government, through the National Institutes of Health is the primary funding of basic health related research in the US. Given the fact that the US pumps more money into research than any other nation, the budget of the NIH comprises the majority of basic health related research world wide. The other source of funding is private money mostly from drug companies, but drug companies are not interested in this type of basic work because it doesn't directly lead to a patentable drug.

When GW Bush severely restricted the ability of scientists to get NIH funding for human embryonic stem cell research, he essentially eliminated the research world wide. You are correct that non federally funded research could still take place, but the difference is between having thousands of the brightest scientists in the world working on the issue (if it were federally funded) versus a handful of scientists, many of which are less qualified and not good enough to get federal funding anyway. Science is a slow tedious process. The more people working on an issue the faster progress will occur. Would we have eventually experienced the same benefits of embryonic stem cell therapy even without federal funding? Perhaps, but if so it would surely occur many decades later than if federally funded.

The accomplishments of embryonic stem cell therapy in nonhuman animals is evidence of the potential and the limitations that the federal ban has imposed.

In animals, embryonic stem cells have treated spinal cord injury: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1244 ... $=activity

Parkinson's disease: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1923 ... d_RVDocSum

and show promise in treating heart disease: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1881 ... d_RVDocSum

The fact that this progress has been made using federal funds in animals provides evidence of potential benefits when similar funding is available for human research.

Earlier someone posted that our president's actions were nothing more than politics as usual. In fact quite the opposite is true. If you actually know anything about stem cell research you know that the embryos used for this work are those that would otherwise be THROWN IN THE TRASH. The fact that conservatives would rather these embryos be THROWN IN THE TRASH than used for potentially life saving research is the ultimate example of placing politics over the common good of society.

[getalife]

Jeff, I assure you that my degree is real. My area of expertise is more on the macro side than on the micro, but my knowledge of biology and science is probably more solid than 99% of those that post here. While I have no idea what your background is, I assume it is in science, since you pretend to be an expert in almost every subject that is raised on this forum. Just like the global warming issue, the scientific community is not in agreement on this issue. Yet you seem to think that any contrary position is a lack of knowledge or intelligence.

Stem cell research in animals is not a solid science. While there is promise, they have a long way to go. My issue is not so much with the science but with the ethics involved. If you are pro choice, you will probably not agree with me. If you are pro life, you may understand where I am coming from. I cannot control what the privately funded researchers do in this area, but I do not want my tax dollars funding research which is contrary to my beliefs.

There is some very promising adult stem cell research. I understand that adult stem cells are only able to develop into a limited number of cell types related to the tissue that the stem cells originally came from, but I think its worth funding before we go down this slippery slope.

[getalife]

Fish,
My statement about harvesting organs from kids was an obvious exaggeration to demonstrate the slippery slope argument. Of course we will not do that. My point is that at some point you have to make a decision on when life begins. Is it at the moment of conception? One week? One month? Six months? When is it OK to kill a human baby? While I am not a full pro-lifer (I believe that there are some circumstances where it is appropriate), I do believe that there is something inherently wrong with dissecting human embryos for research. So, BHO is going to fund research on human embryos that would have otherwise been destroyed... what happens next year? what happens in 10 years. By heading down this path we open the door to creeping incrementalism. Its not that far fetched to imagine a time when we may extend the research to eggs that are fertilized strictly for research. "Well, we were going to destroy those eggs anyway... and the sperm was getting old and would have also been destroyed". Do you see the argument?

[Jeff C.]

Stem cell research in animals is not a solid science. While there is promise, they have a long way to go. My issue is not so much with the science but with the ethics involved. If you are pro choice, you will probably not agree with me. If you are pro life, you may understand where I am coming from. I cannot control what the privately funded researchers do in this area, but I do not want my tax dollars funding research which is contrary to my beliefs.

There is some very promising adult stem cell research. I understand that adult stem cells are only able to develop into a limited number of cell types related to the tissue that the stem cells originally came from, but I think its worth funding before we go down this slippery slope.

Must we rehash the whole global warming debate? On that issue you have maintained that there is widespread disagreement among the scientists as to whether manmade global warming is real. You essentially lost that argument because you could not produce the peer reviewed scientic studies supporting your claim. If as you suggest, the science is inconclusive then you would be able to produce scientific articles supporting your view. You couldn't and so you lost.

The issue of embryonic stem cell research is a different animal entirely. Because of GW Bush's restrictions, we've lost almost 10 years of potential progress in the field. The field is in it's infancy BECAUSE of Bush's politicization of the issue. It is only with more research that we can truly discover if these cells are as beneficial as most people working in the field believe.

Regarding your feelings about spending federal money on things you object to, that's the problem with living in a democracy. I personally object to the spending of billions of dollars to invade a sovereign nation who posed no legitimate threat to our country; I object to my taxes being used to fund a war that resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians; I object to the federal government giving millions of dollars in subsidies to wealthy corporations; I objected to Bush's tax cuts going mostly to the wealthiest people in our society, and the list goes on and on.

The ballot box provides a solution to your objections and my objections. This time around the ballot box worked for me and not for you. You lost. Get over it.

[FishaHallic]

Fish,
My statement about harvesting organs from kids was an obvious exaggeration to demonstrate the slippery slope argument. Of course we will not do that. My point is that at some point you have to make a decision on when life begins. Is it at the moment of conception? One week? One month? Six months? When is it OK to kill a human baby? While I am not a full pro-lifer (I believe that there are some circumstances where it is appropriate), I do believe that there is something inherently wrong with dissecting human embryos for research. So, BHO is going to fund research on human embryos that would have otherwise been destroyed... what happens next year? what happens in 10 years. By heading down this path we open the door to creeping incrementalism. Its not that far fetched to imagine a time when we may extend the research to eggs that are fertilized strictly for research. "Well, we were going to destroy those eggs anyway... and the sperm was getting old and would have also been destroyed". Do you see the argument?

I understood your argument from the begining but we all know what you were saying would never happen so why bring it up as one of your arguments?

I agree with you somewhat on why we have the opinions we do because I am PRO choice and you are pro life. My point is though that embryonic stem cell research could bring us cures or help for some terrible illnesses so why would we not try to help people with these illnesses? I don't believe people should be suffering and there families suffering when we might be able to cure them.

I realize that you most likely believe that life begins at conception and that is where we differ. I agree that there has to be a point where we can't abort a fetus but an embryonic stem cell shows too much promise not to explore according to many scientist. These are just the opinion of someone without a biology degree but does have a degree in life.

[getalife]

We have to agree to disagree. BTW Jeff, if you believe so much in the ballot box, then how do you feel about the majority of Californians voting to ban gay marriage? I know its an entirely different subject but I dont recall you ever weighing in on the subject.