A little RANT!

[Rich hamilton]

nm

[Mark Hiser]

Rich, not sure what numbers you used??
I used 40% tax, 1000 entry and 1000 expense...... still leaves 19000?
Not gonna be rich, but then it's just fishin

Mark Hiser

[Rich hamilton]

mark,

I never was very good at math! I used 50% in taxes 1K entry and 2K in expenses. My Ranger holds 50 plus gallons plus oil, fuel for my truck, misc tackle, hotel etc for 7 nights (tournament/ practice time)

Again this is my personal situation and I am supportive of folks who can pursue the dream. I am just thinking out loud wondering if I will ever be able to swing this again.

I am sure there are many ways to cut expenses but the days of sleeping in my truck and PBJ sando's are over for me. maybe common sense and reality has kicked in for my personal situation!

[Mark Hiser]

Weelll, I think you did the right math, and I like your expense numbers better, closer to actual than mine...... I like a nice room now.... PBJ's are tasty Hors devores before a good meal , and my boat takes 52+ gallons along with XD 100 for lube...

So, your closer than I am, But, If you and I don't fight this Common sense and reality thing there will be no one left . We aren't ever gonna get rich and we know it, But there is still that magic in the am, when it's dark and the boats are bobbing, and the snowflakes a dropping and I look across all the red and green lights that has exactly the same effect it did 30 years ago. I sip the coffee and think of my plan....... the competition still rocks, I am just a little calmer when I get to my first spot than back then.

Who knows how long they will have the opportunity to play this game??? If it still gives the same enjoyment it used to or close, then I will see you at Shasta....... I'll buy you a cup of Joe.

Mark

[Obi-Hub]

I definitely can't afford to play anymore. Too steep for me and I only have three weeks of vacation time so that tacks on a week of no pay to the cost of running the whole season. The paybacks look good at first glance but once you look at the big picture only a few will be lucky to come out at the end of the year in the black. I think I was running close to Rich's expense numbers four years ago Medical conditions didn't let me skimp on too much as far as food and lodging needs. I think the better you can do on these two, the better your performance will be I always fish better after a good night's sleep and a belly full of good food

I was blessed the first year I ran as a Pro had some cash sponsorship but that dried up the next year right before the first tourney. I got my entry deposits paid but both my cash sponsors back out just before Christmas do to budget cuts. Can't say I blame, they needed to keep employees instead of paying for a Bass Pro to advertise their goods and services.

Good Luck to all the get to continue chasing their dream. About the only way I could/would hit the trail again is to win the lottery or find a real good Sugar Momma that would pay my way

[scottsweet]

This is an interesting discussion, but I guess I have a completely different perspective. I have both won a big tournament and ran a tournament. What sport, done on the weekend or perhaps for a week, that you love allows you to pay some money and win significantly more than you paid? I don't know of one other than tournament fishing.

I have a neighbor who races cars. I would call it weekend, semi-pro, NASCAR like on-road oval racing. He has a bunch of sponsors who pay for his basic car that costs over $100,000. His basic racing expenses like fuel, tires, and such are paid for. Any upgrades to the car, travel expenses, tools, time for the classes and actual labor, etc are his. He told me he can go for a weekend for a race and win at most, $1000! I watch him fiddling and tuning this car every week in his garage...for at best $1000! From what I understand, he is a very good driver and wins most of the time....and one of the few with so much of the car paid for by sponsors. But he LOVES it and lives for the rush and the race.

Guys, we have become so accustomed to looking at fishing tournaments as a "business" that we are losing sight that it is for FUN! For the select few who do it for a living, their rewards are much larger than their expenses for a job well done. They get the big time sponsors, etc. If you want to fish for business, there are plenty of opportunities to do that...don't you think? Heck, you don't even have to "qualify" for most of them...just show up and pay up.

I agree that it is pointless to "donate" your money when your skills don't match the probability to make money. However, we all know what makes the world go around and this is capitalism at its finest. If you think you have a shot to win the money, put your money down and give it shot, but don't complain about the suppliers about your ability, or inability, to make money .

Consider the alternatives...fish in a club to make $50 or $100, fish a team tournament to win a few thousand, fish a Pro/Am to win $5000-$10000, or fish a major area circuit to win $10,000-$25,000. Guys, we ALL have choices and you get to make money based on your choice!!

Complaining only makes the provider think we are a bunch of complaining whiners who are never satisfied. THEY could choose to just leave and the result...we have FEWER choices. I say, ask yourself who would be the loser, you or them, if they should leave? In my book...US. They don't get a rush when YOU win and stand up on the stage with a big check and raise the trophy high above your head...they want to make a living. We get the rush and we want the shot to see if we can do it...so...GO FOR IT where you think you have the best shot.

Happy safe holidays to all and remember to appreciate what we have in this amazing country of ours and to those who give us that freedom. Keep a perspective of what we do have and remember there are SO many who are worried about the smallest of things...like their next meal, shoes, clothes or a roof over their head.

[Brian Linehan]

Well said Scott!

[Mark Hiser]

Hey there Scott, I am NOT complaining in the slightest, don't really see the other two posters as doing much either, they are just stating their individual perspectives.

You gave a great dissertation there, but I really am failing to see the need in this thread, It's a very expensive sport, always has been, things being relative and all. I fish when I am able, and will continue to as long as I am able.

You have a great holiday, and maybe we will see you on the water.......

Mark Hiser

[lacy10]

what the heck am I the only one who actually sees the pay outs for the
FLW Everstart the payout is $35,00 if 150 boats show up plus if you are a Ranger boat owner and registered you get a boat 198 VX where in the world did you get $15,000?

[bryanmc]

They're talking after taxes and expenses and without figuring in the boat.

[lacy10]

I am not no tax man but to my knowledge you can take off a lot of expenses , I would think your whole year s because you have the expense of the whole year and cost of the boat, maintanence etc, to write off fishing lures you bought to catch the winning weight ,etc so actually your tax liability would be significantly lower

[Obi-Hub]

I am not no tax man but to my knowledge you can take off a lot of expenses , I would think your whole year s because you have the expense of the whole year and cost of the boat, maintanence etc, to write off fishing lures you bought to catch the winning weight ,etc so actually your tax liability would be significantly lower

Lacy,

You have to be very careful how you try and write off tournament fishing expenses. If you don't file it as a separate business (Schedule C, if I remember correctly) away from your normal income you can send up lots of red flags with the IRS and end up getting audited. They lean towards treating fishing as a hobby unless you treat it as a legitimate business and the penalties can be quite steep if they don't find your filing legitimate.

In all reality, tournament fishing is not a profitable venture for most anglers. Yes, there are some that make a living at it but that number if far in the minority. Remember with a field of 150 anglers, there are another 149 anglers that think they are going to win. The odds are pretty slim for most anglers to even win one event from the pro side over several years of competing so it can be an expensive gamble and a lot of piggy banks have been broken and drained dry. It sure is fun to do but I wouldn't venture into the arena unless you have the money to leave on table and aren't taking money to do it from your required living and/or family expenses.

[Rich hamilton]

Lacy,

Some folks actually do not fish out of Ranger boats. I am not sure what the year cut-off is for qualifying years. If I was fishing it I would call.
I appreciate your response but in truth not everyone can qualify so I went with the maximum purse IF 150 boats show up. This is an adult conversation without Bias etc towards any organization. If I ever fear to express my personal opinion because of reprisal then my instinct tells me I would be better off not partcipating in the series or event.

After participating on this forum for more years than I can remember I have confidence that people who read my posts know my intentions. Again I really appreciate everyone's feedback and try to listen, learn and build on what they have to say.

For example Mark gave me a great reality check of why we are doing this sport. This is the true beauty of this forum. Sometimes we need a good kick in the pants for a reality check.

Another example is speaking with Ken/ Stan Vandenberg insurance yesterday (1800 bass boat) and talking about fishing, camping, our daughters graduating from college etc. We have a bond shared out of our passion of fishing and I have never even met the guys. Again this is the true VALUE of this website. So in closing be advised that I am an avid supporter of all tournament organizations but in my situation I am relating to decade old friends how times have changed and how I have changed. Guess what! 99% of the time when I am feeling a certain way I am shocked to see how many others feel the same way.

[Ib5g]

For me i look at FLW payouts and say cool I raced Stock Cars for 16 yrs traveled all the western U.S including a few trips to Florida We never had a oppurtunity to even break even doing what i loved. Since parking the racecar and getting into fishing its been a eye opener i have did well enough this year to almost break even. Something that my former hobby was well for lack of a better word Impossible. Im looking forward to donate my money to the Flw with the possibility of maybe breaking even

[Ricky-S]

If you are paying 40% taxes on winnings of $35-70,000 (Ranger Cup) then you either have a bad tax person or you don't speak to people who actually fish for a living. There are many ways around paying 40% taxes. When (if) you win the tournament, PM me, and I'll go over them and refer you to a tax person who does many of the pro anglers taxes in CA.

In terms of spending $1000-$2,000 per tournament-Well that depends on the individual angler. I have been fishing these derbies long enough where I am able to keep costs down. We pack 3 people in a room, don't run around during practice at 70 mph, and I am not eating steak and lobster every night. Guys also waste a lot of money drinking at the bar. This is NOT a vacation it is WORK. I also don't go to the tackle store every night or give in the the dock talk about what baits I have to have. If I can't catch them on what I have in the boat then I shouldn't be doing this. I also buy ALL of my tackle in the off season for the entire year or try to use you what get for free.

Cost for Shasta:
Hotel: $35 a night X 7 nights / three people in the room= $81
Food: 5-10 bucks a day x 7= $70
Travel to and from=$200
Gas in boat=$150
Total=$500

Yeah if you are eating out every night at $20-30 and staying at the best hotel you WILL GO BROKE. The guys I travel with are there to fish. I also plan out my year and I do not drive back and forth. My first three tournaments are in Northern Cal and I will leave my boat and truck and fly back and forth. I buy my tickets early enough where they cost $80 round trip. Saves miles on the truck, gas, and time. I have also booked all my hotels for WON, AC, and FLW. I make friends with the hotel people (give them hats/food) and I get prices that are cheaper. My brother in law also works for a hotel company and we get BIG discounts. The biggest cost will be the Rosy trip which will add to the gas bill.


Basic planning.

[flipit]

Not knocking on ya Ricky, curious as to what you eat that only costs $5-$10 a day?

[Ricky-S]

There are plenty of places where you can get a good meal for $5-$10 bucks. We call it a 5 dollar bag. One of my favorites places is http://www.chipotle.com, wing stop, In and Out. There are about 5-10 places that I have mapped out where your dollar goes a long way. Buy some bread and meat and make a sandwich.

The point is that is cost big money to eat at Fridays, Olive Garden or some place like that every night. Meal, drinks, plus tip and you could be at $40-50 every night. I save that for when I take the wife on a vacation. I fish too many tournaments to do that every night.

Here is another example of a way to save money. When on the road the price of gas can very 30-50 cents a gallon. I know where to stop to buy the cheapest gas on the road. At 30 gallons that would save $15 bucks per fill up.

[flipit]

Fair enough, you were referring to dinner not food for the day.

[Rich hamilton]

Ricky,

I think you have some great ideas and I like your thought process. I watched a show on T.O. and how he slept/ate in his van for 5 years or something like that to make it to where he is now. I knew Skeet when he was one step up from a float tuber. I have watched many of these folks for a long time.

I fished a tough bassmaster event on the columbia river, slept in the bed of my truck for 8 days and froze and prayed the entire trip my truck and boat engine would not blow up. common sense would tell a person that this is not fun nor is it relaxing. I have spend 30 years sleeping in dorms with people with bad bladders and snoring problems. Sharing a 600 square foot room and eating a footlong and throwing frogs at shasta in january does not work for me. (I am trying to be funny)
here is my typical trip costs and I will not stay in a gang banging motel 6 ever again! By the way I have had many hotel experiences where I get the shakes even going into the rooms

(Shasta) Holiday inn $89 a night tax hotel tax etc $100x7 =$700
Food= I figure $20 per day $150 I bring my own cofee/maker
Misc tackle $150 it is an addiction I will give you that but this is a real number!
Launch can be $10-$20 per day $140
gas for truck I would guess $180 (ripon to shasta) shasta to launch x7 Shasta back home.
gas for boat= $150 to $300 I really do not know.
Oil $40-$60? again I do not know.

Entry fee= $1000 without any side options if available.
So how about $2500 give or take some.

I think this is where folks are comfortable staying in the 3-4 hundered dollar range fishing fairly local and on waters they have some experience on. If I remember we used to pay that and fish for a nice Ranger boat.

I guess folks have not realized our costs have gone up and the prize package has really gone down.
There are some other examples of sports and breaking even etc. I am a fisherman and really all I can relate to is that sport. From the banks of the shore or in a $60 K boat

[Ricky-S]

You can save money on the launch by buying the pass from Phils for $75 bucks and launching at packards bay. I forgot about that one. That is a real expense.

I have been staying at the Motel 6 for 10 years and (knock on wood) have never had a problem. I said that about staying in Stockton and two buddies got broken into. Sign of the times I guess. We block off three rooms in a specific location to ensure that no one not in the tournament is around us.

I can see ways that you can cut down costs based on your numbers IE-roommate and/or launch pass. However, I have been traveling with the same guys for 10 years and it is a big family. I cant stand snoring either.

In terms of what used to be (fishing for a boat for $350)-nothing is what it used to be. Hell my house isn't worth what it used to be....I could go on....WON gave away a boat for the last Delta for $350 entry and didnt break 50 boats. Sign of the times.

I started fishing these derbies without any money back when I was 18 years old so that part of me has never left. I have no idea of what I would do with myself if I didn't fish these tournaments. The time on the water is far more important than a cost-for me...

[Rich hamilton]

nm

[Ricky-S]

Well-As I grow older I just hope that I can decrease the number of times that I say that I wish I had...I hope that I do more good than bad.... and I hope that the people that like me out number those that dont. (Haters not included-Hate On)

Fishing is the purest thing that I have ever done and it keeps me out of trouble (at least when I am not on these darn boards )

Life is about decisions...I do my best to make decisions that allow me to do what I love to do.

Now if the fish gods will allow me to win one of the darn tournaments....Shasta here I come. Leaving Christmas day and It can't get here fast enough.

[FinesseKid]

Scott, I agree with everything you said....Mostly...

The only thing I would address is that you mention that if fisherman arent happy, tournament circuits would leave and we would have FEWER CHOICES....

I would contend that fewer choices would be a GOOD thing. Are there not too many circuits around right now? Few are drawing more than 20 boats at a time and tournament directors are competing for everyones business.

[scottsweet]

Scott, I agree with everything you said....Mostly...

The only thing I would address is that you mention that if fisherman arent happy, tournament circuits would leave and we would have FEWER CHOICES....

I would contend that fewer choices would be a GOOD thing. Are there not too many circuits around right now? Few are drawing more than 20 boats at a time and tournament directors are competing for everyones business.

Interesting thought here. If you noticed, I didn't pick organizations and the similarities at a given level. I did that intentionally . There are LOTS of clubs, LOTS of local team tournament choices, LOTS of Pro/Ams, but very few big money tournaments in the west. At any one level, one could argue that there are too many choices but felt that was not the purpose of this thread and actually, have no desire to go there . All of the organizations want to be the best and to make the most money for their investment...nothing wrong with that. My point here is the organizations see it as a "business" and we are the customers. The customers want to win and and feel that rush...the organizations need to make money to survive. How much they make and how they go about it is for them to decide and give us the choices. Of course if any one does a better job, hopefully more customers will come.

I just feel that the reputation of this board and what some people who jump on the bandwagon say creates a very poor perception of us on the west coast. Second, I like to have choices to fish and am grateful we have them. While I always fish to win, I do fish for fun, and hope to make some money doing it. I don't fish to make money and hope to have fun...

[Mark Hiser]

Well Scott, I never did see this thread as a negative post towards any Org. I did see it as a guy who started a post discussing his particular situation at this point in time, I replied in conversation, then another poster also discussed his position and inability to make a go of it, at this level tournament today.

Since that third poster, you have posted explaining the differences in gambling my money in fishing tournaments or Nascar, decried the previous posters as complainers ( whiners), explained the different choices in levels of tournaments we have available to us, gave us a good talk on "Donating" and "Capitalism". Lets see..... oh yea, you also explained the possible alternatives in different levels of tournaments and the rewards, went back again to the complaining issue and it's possible effect on the Orgs' providing these high level tournament venues, and the resultant effect on the number of choices we have today. You finished up that first post with a holiday wish to all, and then reminded us of the less fortunate who are struggling in this life just to live.

Then, Ricky comes into it and gives us his traveling tips,( Which many may find helpful), and then eventually you come back and tell us the purpose of this thread, and about the reputation of this forum.

Just so you know, as a frequent reader and occasional poster on this forum....... I did not see the negative connotation inside the original post. Just a person perhaps disgusted with the state of the economy and his financial position who loves to fish.

As to my posts on this, just so you know, if any org's decide to pull up and leave because of the content in my posts.... well, I'll use my money and build another gun... then go Huntin. I have never lacked for a sport to spend my money on. and I don't do Nascar.

Perhaps the negativity this forum has a reputation for affected your reply.. but until you posted, I just don't think it was there.

Oh, I have not won a large venue event, but I have had some success at some smaller ones, and helped to run a few tournaments..... though I am not sure why that has any credence in this discussion.

Have a glorious Holiday

Mark Hiser

[Obi-Hub]

I agree with you Mark. Well put, I do think the thread took a turn from it's original intent about how guys can afford to fish pro events as pros.

Happy Holidays Everyone

[flipit]

As a guy wanting to step up and fish bigger tournaments I appreciate the original poster and those that have discussed the extra expense aspect.In past years I had my own business and plenty of money, but lacked the time. Now I have the time, but not enough money coming in. Physical problems have forced me to sell, and make a career change, yeah bad timing there too. However I am hoping to be able to do so in the 2012 season. The info hear has given me perspective on those expense, and how to save some(Thanks Ricky).
I feel the frustration of the OP. I could fish as I have the time and money saved. However it would not be responsible thing for me to do. I hope to see you all on the water in 2012 and to those fishing this year good luck and tight lines.

[Rich hamilton]

See folks how capitalism works in our country. I find this very funny!

Capitalism is an economic system in which the means of production are privately owned and operated for a private profit; decisions regarding supply, demand, price, distribution, and investments are made by private actors in the free market; profit is distributed to owners who invest in businesses, and wages are paid to workers employed by businesses and companies.

Because someone (me) states that something (tournaments) have lost their perspective it must be ME who is the complainer or whiner!
You see I call this a mind GAME. This is why our system is broke. Maybe china will come over to the United States and start running BASS tournaments. Then once all the American companies are out of the game will my point be made.

Folks because a consumer has an opinion or concern does not mean that they are negative, whinners and complainers who east coasters turn their nose up at the thought of anyone challenging corporate America God Country and the very freedom that many have died for...

The real problem is that most of us have been broken and beaten and dont have the energy to ask WHY? And then follow through with a HELL NO! Again just a rant and something to discuss while sitting on the porcelain highway of life

[Mark Hiser]

Again just a rant and something to discuss while sitting on the porcelain highway of life

Well there you have it, straight from the sitters position

Hey Rich, my wife sells shitters for livin ( in case you ever need a new model )
It's that capitalism thingy

See ya on the water, if you see me someplace, stop me and we can shoot it for a time

Mark

[Ricky-S]

Well, since we took the conversation to a phylosophical level. When I studied econ and history in college there appeared to be cycles where all good things came to an end. Every great society has gone (will go) through some sort of economic down turn. I am sure that those that lived during the great depression did not see it coming and/or did not see the end until it was upon them.

With out taking sides (dems or repub-lessor of two evils as far as I am concerned), just historical based on prior societies and other economic down turns-we are going through something that has/will always happen and no one really knows when it will happen, how to fix it, and when it will be over. That's what makes it a cycle.

All anyone can do is pray and do their best to stay a float until things get better. At least that what I keep telling myself.

There it is-I'm done posting for another 30 days. God bless....

[Rich hamilton]

I knew I would draw you both out of the water on that one!!! God you guys crack me up! Stick a pig for me and bring home some money!

[Mark Hiser]

I knew I would draw you both out of the water on that one!!! God you guys crack me up! Stick a pig for me and bring home some money!



Mark

[cruizer]

Rich I understand where your coming from even though i've only fished as an AM. I wonder sometimes if it's worth it. But I also get a RUSH out of the competion and sitting there in the boat before blast off seeing the green and red lights bobbing in the water it's like being surrounded by XMAS lites. Also meeting new anglers making new friends.I'm also frustrated that the circuit I fished last year and was going to fish this year raised their entry fees after I sent my money (fees were less 2 weeks ago)and set up my scheduled vacation around their dates. I decided to move to the front and fish the California Bass Championship. I feel it's the best bang for my money. I work 50 hours a week and my wife still can't find work so I'll be cutting lots of corners to make it happen. Thanks Ricky S. for your info,it's a great help. I'm doing this cause I JUST LOVE FISHING

[GKramer]

It's always good to hear the kids talk about paybacks and expenses. Few apparently realize there once was a California state limit of $200 maximum prize (cash and/or product) in any fishing contest--bass tournaments included. But I promise you, 12-15 boat fields were rare. Then much later, when Randy Best of Norco was pretty dominant out here and eventually qualified for the Bassmasters Classic when B.A.S.S. made its initial foray here--still he never had a paying sponsor. The only things that can hurt us are our expectations. Heck, we bought the boat and the gear, didn't we?

[Rich hamilton]

WOW George that is a name out of the past (Randy Best). Funny how we forget about some folks!