A question of business ethics

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Rick G
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A question of business ethics

Postby Rick G » Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:25 am

What do Ray Scott, Jerry Mckinnis, Bob Twileger, Larry Viviano, Charly Evans, Dave Plotnik and Craig Sutherland all have in common? None of them fish their own events and take THEIR OWN customers money. Now before the uproar starts, I support A/C teams here in So. Cal as I do all the trails, but without getting personal, as a business owner that is just not right to me. Theres nothing wrong with going and fishing FLW, if the bottom line is you want to fish competitivly, but to ask the anglers to support you all year and then take the funds from them is like saying no problem to J-Lo winning American Idol. Wow. Rick G.
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Re: A question of business ethics

Postby JustinD » Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:40 am

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Rick you have balls the size of Jupiter. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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Re: A question of business ethics

Postby Murph » Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:43 am

Rick, I would think that some of the time, it is just to improve the Numbers. I noticed once, I think last year, where said person was entered in a 12 team tourney, on the West or East Delta, and he didn't weigh a fish, which led me to believe, he just Paid the Entry.
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Re: A question of business ethics

Postby WackySenko » Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:53 am

I do NOT see a problem with anybody fishing thier own tournaments. As long as he is paying his entry fee. He put alot of work into the event and should be able to fish it if he wants. He is probably blasting off last and coming in early. I do not see it as a bad choice in relation to business ethics. If you do not like it, fish another cicuit.

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Re: A question of business ethics

Postby g-man » Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:58 am

Rick G wrote:What do Ray Scott, Jerry Mckinnis, Bob Twileger, Larry Viviano, Charly Evans, Dave Plotnik and Craig Sutherland all have in common? None of them fish their own events and take THEIR OWN customers money. Now before the uproar starts, I support A/C teams here in So. Cal as I do all the trails, but without getting personal, as a business owner that is just not right to me. Theres nothing wrong with going and fishing FLW, if the bottom line is you want to fish competitivly, but to ask the anglers to support you all year and then take the funds from them is like saying no problem to J-Lo winning American Idol. Wow. Rick G.



well said!

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Re: A question of business ethics

Postby Vince Borges » Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:18 am

I think the only people it bugs is the NON-Customers. Because if you knew everyone that was there fishing, ALL of them were clapping and congratulating him on a job well done. I was wondering how long it would take for somebody to start the crying. Yes he paid his entry all year long, yes he qualified just like everybody else for the TOC. And yes he put his time on the water pre-fishing at least 7 days in the last two weeks!!! did he earn the win YES HE DID!! did he deserve to fish it YES HE DID!! Hey Rick, its not as bad as taking inventory into your store knowing dam well you cant pay for it.. :oops:
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Re: A question of business ethics

Postby adman » Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:30 am

Is it only a bad thing if they happen to do well? Gary Clouse fishes tournaments out of his boats, is he wrong to fish against other guys fishing out of Phoenix boats? Should Gene stop fishing tournaments because he sells tackle? How about Gary (Dobyns or Yamamoto)?
I just don't see any advantage gained by Mark or any other organization owner...they still have to fish.
What do Ray Scott, Jerry Mckinnis, Bob Twileger, Larry Viviano, Charly Evans, Dave Plotnik and Craig Sutherland all have in common? The other commonality these chaps share is that none of them (for the most part) are active, viable competitive fisherman.

I generally agree with your points of view Rick but on this one it just doesn't ring true to me. Sorry.

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Re: A question of business ethics

Postby Marty » Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:37 am

Some excitement!!!

If I made a bait to sell to customers – Would I not use that bait? I bet I would not pay for it!
If I made a rod to sell to customers – Would I not use that rod? I bet I would not pay for it!
If I ran a tournament tour to enlist customers to fish it – Would I not fish it too? But I better pay the fees!

What was your point again?

If it is good enough for the customer then the owner should prove it by using the produce too.
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Re: A question of business ethics

Postby adman » Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:42 am

Did someone suggest that he doesn't pay his entry fees?

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Re: A question of business ethics

Postby Rick G » Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:55 am

Well let me ask this, if Gary Clouse had a Pheonix owners event, on his home water, and was giving away a boat to his customers, who had spent their hard earned money on HIS boats and he went out and won the prize that was meant to go to his owners, is that right? This is not a question of support for a trail, heck why not just have Bill Egan fish WON as they could use the numbers. Also, I dont fish A/C pro ams, but I do support Bassfishing, including supporting A/C down here, but it is not right in my opinion. Also you cannot compare a tackle shop owner or a rod builder fishing the events that are owned by SOMEONE ELSE. And FYI, back in the day Craig Sutherland kicked *** in Team events here in So. Cal.
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Re: A question of business ethics

Postby Vince Borges » Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:05 am

Rick its not a customer appreciation tournament. Its a PRO_AM. It took place all year on three different bodies of water to qualify for this event. NONE of which are his HOME BODY of water. Your comparisons are weak at best. I am not sure what it is you are trying to prove, but now i see your business ethics in jeopardy, not Marks for having a kick *** tournament. I own and operate three business's myself, And the first thing i learned about " Business Ethics " is you don't cap on your competition.
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Re: A question of business ethics

Postby Robchik » Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:15 am

Rick -

I totally see your point Rick, but if I may ask this...

Does being the owner of US Angler's Choice, or any other circuit, give that person an advantage over the field?

I fished all Northern AC Pro-Ams this year and thought it was great and saw nothing wrong with him fishing. He, like all of us, is competitive and wants to test his skills against some of the West's best anglers.

The AC Pro-Am's do a great job of informing teir anger's of how each of the entry dollars is used (TOC $$$, Option $$, etc) and as long as every entry is paid, then i dont think there is a problem.
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Re: A question of business ethics

Postby Bill Hutcheson » Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:21 am

Seriously Rick????

There is a little lake down south here called Diamond Valley Lake. You don't have a problem fishing team events here and taking the money of customers who buy boats and tackle from Anglers Marine. I can promise that over the years, you and Kyle have taken a significant amount of your customers money on this body of water. You did not seem to have a problem with that however. You are a good angler and coincidentally, so is Mark Mendez. Mark just so happens to own the tournament circuit that he fishes.

Is this not a case of the pot calling the kettle black?
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Re: A question of business ethics

Postby DL » Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:32 am

Bill Hutcheson wrote:Seriously Rick????

There is a little lake down south here called Diamond Valley Lake. You don't have a problem fishing team events here and taking the money of customers who buy boats and tackle from Anglers Marine. I can promise that over the years, you and Kyle have taken a significant amount of your customers money on this body of water. You did not seem to have a problem with that however. You are a good angler and coincidentally, so is Mark Mendez. Mark just so happens to own the tournament circuit that he fishes.

Is this not a case of the pot calling the kettle black?


uh no...at least not until Rick challenges us all to a boat selling contest....and I don't think thats happening any time soon... I looked at the results to get a little background on this topic and Im curious to learn how Mark doubled up the $$ on the winner???
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Re: A question of business ethics

Postby Robchik » Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:35 am

TOC Holdout cash. If you fished all three of the North or both South Pro-Ams, you were eligible for the TOC $$$. A tournament within a tournament, so to speak. You also did NOT have to fish the open event to fish for the TOC $$$ if you met eligibility.
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Re: A question of business ethics

Postby Rick G » Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:36 am

I think the only good thing is that he DID pay the entry. A while back Anglers Marine/and Tempe Marine ran the largest tournaments the west have ever seen, where the fields averaged 300-350 BOATS. Never at any time did my ex father in law, John Storie or the later owners the Porthouse family ever enter one of those events to win the prizes their customers had coming to them. In fact there was nobody better in the 80's and early 90's on Bull Shoals lake than John Storie and the owners tournaments there had 800 Plus boats and they gave away 4 free ones. Its not about pro-staffers, they are customers too... Its about the company owners only. Go take your competitions money if you want to make a statement or get your fix. Charley Evans did not fish FLW untill Irwin gave him the ax even. All those years at the Bass-a-thon when we gave away those boats in Game show formats and the contestants were drawn from the customer pool at the show, did anyone see my employees or sons ever get on stage to have a shot at the big prize. Nope. Sorry but just seems unethical to me. If you disagree with me thats fine to. Just my .02
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Re: A question of business ethics

Postby Rick G » Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:43 am

And Bill, last I looked I have no interest in NBW, ABA, A/C or WONBASS other than I support their trails. To answer your question fully, all the tournaments that my Company, Anglers Marine ran at DVL or were a name sponser of including the one YOU Bill ran for WonBass/Anglers Marine I did not fish. I dont own a Tournament Org Bill, and if I did, I would leave the winnin to my customers.
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Re: A question of business ethics

Postby adman » Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:50 am

Well I guess enough people are already weighing-in on Mark's "right" to fish tournaments run by his org. So I won't go there. Clearly most who know and fish against him support that right. (And given the whining nature of fisherman that says a lot). And the parallels drawn re: DVL and your fishing (and winning) against your customers are perhaps valid.

Look, we are all grown-ups, we all have free choice of when to fish,which trails to support and which to avoid. If guys thought it was unfair they might just switch orgs. There simply is no evidence that owning the org presents any advantage to him or disadvantage to his competitors. Now if you want to cleverly change the context as you did with Gary Clouse that might be different, but as it stands there isn't much of a case to made against Mark.

I guess the thing that bothers me most is the broad brush you used in the subject...business ethics. That is a serious subject and with all due respect, it seems slightly irresponsible to attach that label to the single element of his fishing in his tournaments.

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Re: A question of business ethics

Postby Bill Hutcheson » Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:52 am

Well Rick, I am going to bite my tongue, respect your opinion, and simply state that we will have to agree to disagree.
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Re: A question of business ethics

Postby 619 » Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:04 pm

NO GOOD

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Re: A question of business ethics

Postby Kevin Stewart » Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:08 pm

Vince Borges wrote:I think the only people it bugs is the NON-Customers. Because if you knew everyone that was there fishing, ALL of them were clapping and congratulating him on a job well done. I was wondering how long it would take for somebody to start the crying. Yes he paid his entry all year long, yes he qualified just like everybody else for the TOC. And yes he put his time on the water pre-fishing at least 7 days in the last two weeks!!! did he earn the win YES HE DID!! did he deserve to fish it YES HE DID!! Hey Rick, its not as bad as taking inventory into your store knowing dam well you cant pay for it.. :oops:



I have no problem with any owner or employees competing within their own events….
What I do have a problem with is changing the format to qualify for the year end (TOC) event after the first event and right before the second event.
Under the original qualifications many that fished this year end event would not have qualified.
This was not a T.O.C. in my opinion, just a fourth event with extra money for anyone that fished all four.

Kevin Stewart

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Re: A question of business ethics

Postby Rick G » Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:15 pm

No problem Hutch. We all have "Rights" as business owners, and Mark exercising his to fish must be ok with him. I thank all the org's for promoting fishing everyday. Thats a tuff job under a big microscope.
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Re: A question of business ethics

Postby ash » Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:55 pm

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""Business Ethics" can be defined as the critical, structured examination of how people & institutions should behave in the world of commerce. In particular, it involves examining appropriate constraints on the pursuit of self-interest, or (for firms) profits, when the actions of individuals or firms affects others." http://www.businessethics.ca/definition ... thics.html


I am curious to what the state laws are governing games of skill in terms of if the person hosting / profiting from the game is also alowed to compete in the game. I know for sweepstakes and raffels this is not permissible and the laws are clear for contests - the rules have to be laid out up front, the public has a right to request an open book, however I have not been able to find law specific to Ca. Games of Skill - that would relate to tournaments?

I understand that those competing have accepted the owner of the trail as a participant and that is to be considered. To vince's point - The distinction of selling a boat and competing with your customers is that the rules of the event, the staff, and the money is not being goverened buy a boat seller or bait maker - they are being governed by a third party unbiased person who people pay to provide an equal playing field, enforce the rules and pay the monies or prizes as agreed at the begining of the contest.
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Re: A question of business ethics

Postby Phil Burgess » Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:31 pm

Kevin Stewart wrote:
Vince Borges wrote:I think the only people it bugs is the NON-Customers. Because if you knew everyone that was there fishing, ALL of them were clapping and congratulating him on a job well done. I was wondering how long it would take for somebody to start the crying. Yes he paid his entry all year long, yes he qualified just like everybody else for the TOC. And yes he put his time on the water pre-fishing at least 7 days in the last two weeks!!! did he earn the win YES HE DID!! did he deserve to fish it YES HE DID!! Hey Rick, its not as bad as taking inventory into your store knowing dam well you cant pay for it.. :oops:



I have no problem with any owner or employees competing within their own events….
What I do have a problem with is changing the format to qualify for the year end (TOC) event after the first event and right before the second event.
Under the original qualifications many that fished this year end event would not have qualified.
This was not a T.O.C. in my opinion, just a fourth event with extra money for anyone that fished all four.

Kevin Stewart



THATS THE ONLY PROBLEM I SEE TOO KEVIN......... ITS GREAT THAT HE WENT OUT THERE AND STUCK THE RIGHT FISH...... BUT TO CHANGE THE RULES HALF WAY THROUGH THE SEASON JUST SO HE COULD FISH....... """COM ON SON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!""""
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Re: A question of business ethics

Postby Brian D. » Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:35 pm

Not this again. My comments are reserved for a less open venue. I'm sitting this one out.


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Re: A question of business ethics

Postby Brian » Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:46 pm

Phil Burgess wrote:
Kevin Stewart wrote:

I have no problem with any owner or employees competing within their own events….
What I do have a problem with is changing the format to qualify for the year end (TOC) event after the first event and right before the second event.
Under the original qualifications many that fished this year end event would not have qualified.
This was not a T.O.C. in my opinion, just a fourth event with extra money for anyone that fished all four.

Kevin Stewart



THATS THE ONLY PROBLEM I SEE TOO KEVIN......... ITS GREAT THAT HE WENT OUT THERE AND STUCK THE RIGHT FISH...... BUT TO CHANGE THE RULES HALF WAY THROUGH THE SEASON JUST SO HE COULD FISH....... """COM ON SON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!""""


Well I can see why Kevin would be upset. If not for the rule changes after the fact, he would of won the event.

From what I understand, This is who should of been fishing.

North

1 DEE THOMAS** 150 25 144 25 82 25 451
2 GLEN LOCKHART 149 25 149 25 77 25 450
3 KEVIN STEWART 131 25 139 25 89 25 434
4 WAYNE BREAZEALE 135 25 130 25 90 25 430
5 MIKE NICHELINI 138 25 120 25 94 25 427
6 PAUL TILTON 116 25 140 25 88 25 419
7 JUSTIN EVANS 137 25 92 25 98 25 402
8 NICK LANGLOLIS 142 25 122 25 61 25 400
8 JODIE WHITE 96 25 142 25 87 25 400
10 RODERICK LEE 107 25 126 25 86 25 394
11 CHAD MARTIN 84 25 132 25 97 25 388
12 KEVIN DAVIS 121 25 138 25 52 25 386
12 DUGAN MCINTOSH 109 25 124 25 78 25 386
14 RON MOORE 146 25 121 25 42 25 384
14 BRENT LYON 99 25 146 25 64 25 384
16 VINCE BORGES 119 25 129 25 51 25 374
17 JESSE MARTIN 105 25 108 25 83 25 371
18 JIM NOVOTNY 111 25 106 25 73 25 365
19 KEITH FRIESEN 147 25 99 25 41 25 362
20 DAN WELLS 117 25 89 25 80 25 361
21 ROBBY CHIKASAWA 114 25 88 25 79 25 356
22 MIKE HAROUTUNIAN 133 25 101 25 46 25 355
22 STEVE GREENE 114 25 100 25 66 25 355
24 PAUL BUCCOLA 100 25 123 25 55 25 353
25 BRIAN WELCH 115 25 111 25 49 25 350

SOUTH
1 WALTER KONDRACKI JR. 148 25 147 25 345
1 GARY PINHOLSTER 146 25 149 25 345
3 JOHN PERKINS 141 25 146 25 337
3 TROY LINDNER 137 25 150 25 337
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Re: A question of business ethics

Postby mark poulson » Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:08 pm

I don't think it's a question of ethics, morals, or legality.
Since tournament trails have staff boats who work those trails, and who have their entry fees comped in return for working that trail, I'm guessing there is no prohibition from him fishing.
So....
Is it illegal, probably not.
Is it ethically questionable, probably not, if it's not illegal.
Is it dumb, given how many in the bass fishing community, and life in general, are looking to blame someone else for their own failures, definately.
I met Mark Mendez when I worked for Mike Iljin's AC Castaic trail, and he's not dumb. In fact, he's scary smart and super competitive.
That's what's made him so successful in business.
But I think he made a dumb decision on this one.
He's left himself wide open to criticism, and turned the spotlight away from his tournament organization's trails, and squarely on himself. In today's economy, no one needs bad publicity.
If he still burns to compete, he should have picked another circut, not the one he owns.
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Re: A question of business ethics

Postby DL » Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:42 pm

Brian wrote:
Phil Burgess wrote:
Kevin Stewart wrote:

I have no problem with any owner or employees competing within their own events….
What I do have a problem with is changing the format to qualify for the year end (TOC) event after the first event and right before the second event.
Under the original qualifications many that fished this year end event would not have qualified.
This was not a T.O.C. in my opinion, just a fourth event with extra money for anyone that fished all four.

Kevin Stewart




THATS THE ONLY PROBLEM I SEE TOO KEVIN......... ITS GREAT THAT HE WENT OUT THERE AND STUCK THE RIGHT FISH...... BUT TO CHANGE THE RULES HALF WAY THROUGH THE SEASON JUST SO HE COULD FISH....... """COM ON SON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!""""


Well I can see why Kevin would be upset. If not for the rule changes after the fact, he would of won the event.

From what I understand, This is who should of been fishing.

North

1 DEE THOMAS** 150 25 144 25 82 25 451
2 GLEN LOCKHART 149 25 149 25 77 25 450
3 KEVIN STEWART 131 25 139 25 89 25 434
4 WAYNE BREAZEALE 135 25 130 25 90 25 430
5 MIKE NICHELINI 138 25 120 25 94 25 427
6 PAUL TILTON 116 25 140 25 88 25 419
7 JUSTIN EVANS 137 25 92 25 98 25 402
8 NICK LANGLOLIS 142 25 122 25 61 25 400
8 JODIE WHITE 96 25 142 25 87 25 400
10 RODERICK LEE 107 25 126 25 86 25 394
11 CHAD MARTIN 84 25 132 25 97 25 388
12 KEVIN DAVIS 121 25 138 25 52 25 386
12 DUGAN MCINTOSH 109 25 124 25 78 25 386
14 RON MOORE 146 25 121 25 42 25 384
14 BRENT LYON 99 25 146 25 64 25 384
16 VINCE BORGES 119 25 129 25 51 25 374
17 JESSE MARTIN 105 25 108 25 83 25 371
18 JIM NOVOTNY 111 25 106 25 73 25 365
19 KEITH FRIESEN 147 25 99 25 41 25 362
20 DAN WELLS 117 25 89 25 80 25 361
21 ROBBY CHIKASAWA 114 25 88 25 79 25 356
22 MIKE HAROUTUNIAN 133 25 101 25 46 25 355
22 STEVE GREENE 114 25 100 25 66 25 355
24 PAUL BUCCOLA 100 25 123 25 55 25 353
25 BRIAN WELCH 115 25 111 25 49 25 350

SOUTH
1 WALTER KONDRACKI JR. 148 25 147 25 345
1 GARY PINHOLSTER 146 25 149 25 345
3 JOHN PERKINS 141 25 146 25 337
3 TROY LINDNER 137 25 150 25 337


So, finishing 39th, 57th, and 63rd in 3 events wouldn't qualify you for the TOC unless all anglers fishing all 3 events are automatic qualifiers?
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Re: A question of business ethics

Postby Kevin Stewart » Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:49 pm

Nope, Not under the original terms..... :evil:

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Re: A question of business ethics

Postby DL » Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:54 pm

Kevin Stewart wrote:Nope, Not under the original terms..... :evil:


just checkin' :mrgreen:
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Re: A question of business ethics

Postby g-man » Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:22 pm

Kevin Stewart wrote:Nope, Not under the original terms..... :evil:


:shock:

Nice Job out there regardless Kevin..
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Re: A question of business ethics

Postby Vern » Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:30 pm

As for Mark fishing his tournaments, what is the problem? He pays his entry like everyone else. He abides by the rules like everyone else. He has nothing to do with the running of the tournament. So what is the problem? If he finishes bad he is always there to congradulate the winner. I know Mark very well he has a great love for fishing. So because he owns AC is he supposed to stop? He puts out a great product, if there was a product out there as good he would fish it.. Vern

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Re: A question of business ethics

Postby nipples » Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:36 pm

ash wrote:I am curious to what the state laws are governing games of skill in terms of if the person hosting / profiting from the game is also alowed to compete in the game. I know for sweepstakes and raffels this is not permissible and the laws are clear for contests - the rules have to be laid out up front, the public has a right to request an open book, however I have not been able to find law specific to Ca. Games of Skill - that would relate to tournaments?


A fishing tournament is a game of chance Ash... You can give yourself an edge by being skilled at technique and knowledge, but it is still a game of chance. A poker player can give himself an edge by counting cards and being good at reading people. But every fishing tournament I have seen involves chance. Someone inevitably weighs in a redneck fish (a big fish that is caught by chance, usually when an anglers throws a line over while retying a different rod or taking a piss, and the fish is on the line when they get back to it). Being in the top 10 in the AOY points is skill, but winning a tourney is mainly chance enhanced with skill.

I heard that Mark wouldn't have been eligable to fish the TOC if he had not changed the rules... (but I haven't confirmed that. If it's true, then I would say he's a crook)

Regardless... I think G-Man said it best... "It is not good biz to complete against your customers".

And It's just as unethical as an employee of some company winning any game of chance sponsorered by said company... Yeah they may have won fair and square, but it raises doubt, so it is best to say employees and their families are not eligable to play... This practice is a no-brainer... No-Brainer being the key word. :shock:

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Re: A question of business ethics

Postby N.A.R » Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:38 pm

Vince Borges wrote: Because if you knew everyone that was there fishing, ALL of them were clapping and congratulating him on a job well done. :oops:


Kevin Stewart is this fact?

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Re: A question of business ethics

Postby littlebailey » Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:47 pm

Rick G wrote:What do Ray Scott, Jerry Mckinnis, Bob Twileger, Larry Viviano, Charly Evans, Dave Plotnik and Craig Sutherland all have in common? None of them fish their own events and take THEIR OWN customers money.


Charlie Evans fishes as a co angler... Same same right? Thought you should know. :D :D
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Re: A question of business ethics

Postby Kevin Stewart » Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:52 pm

N.A.R wrote:
Vince Borges wrote: Because if you knew everyone that was there fishing, ALL of them were clapping and congratulating him on a job well done. :oops:


Kevin Stewart is this fact?


Is what fact?

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Re: A question of business ethics

Postby Vince Borges » Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:04 pm

Again people should get facts correct! The change to the TOC was made after the first Northern event based on the fact that the second southern event still was not drawing boats! It was made to try and help the few so-cal anglers that did fish and support AC qualify for the hold out money. It was changed well before the second Northern event took place! So your saying that he changed it to benefit himself after one event means the man can see into the future! :lol: It may have not been the right decision to make that change, and not everybody would agree with it. Sometimes trying to be fair bites you in the buttoz!! He still had to fish like everyone else! He still payed his three entries!! And he still kicked our arsses out there! Like he knew when he made the change that he wouldn't have qualified anyways!! Congrats to Mark for spending 7 days pre-fishing for this event, and executing a well fished event!! I roomed with Mark for this event, he made a change to his game plan Saturday night and it was the right decision! Sometimes you take chances and they work, sometimes they don't!
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Re: A question of business ethics

Postby Kevin Stewart » Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:14 pm

Well Vince I will agree on the "not been the right decision to make that change" but not the "well before the second Northern event", letter dated February 28th recieved two days before the second Northern event.

Bottom line is A/C made a change after the season started for what ever their reasoning, no different then they did last year in a team series.....

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Re: A question of business ethics

Postby Vince Borges » Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:23 pm

I hear ya Kev! I didn't agree with the change at that time either but it is what it is! Congrats again on a job well done at clear lake and the whole season!!
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Re: A question of business ethics

Postby Kevin Stewart » Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:27 pm

Vince Borges wrote:I hear ya Kev! I didn't agree with the change at that time either but it is what it is! Congrats again on a job well done at clear lake and the whole season!!


Thanks Vince, I have now problem with you. Just hated the change and that was well before I even new I would make it.......Oh well, WONBASS next year.

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Re: A question of business ethics

Postby Rick G » Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:36 pm

littlebailey wrote:
Rick G wrote:What do Ray Scott, Jerry Mckinnis, Bob Twileger, Larry Viviano, Charly Evans, Dave Plotnik and Craig Sutherland all have in common? None of them fish their own events and take THEIR OWN customers money.


Charlie Evans fishes as a co angler... Same same right? Thought you should know. :D :D

Dont think he fished untill after he was fired if I am not mistaken
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Re: A question of business ethics

Postby Gary Dobyns » Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:54 pm

Guys right now we should want every boat we can get, period. Our Pro-Ams are doing terrible in the west, all of them. The participation numbers suck. Mendez had a great tournament and paid an entry fee. I wish he was a 10% owner with 9 partners and they all fished. We need numbers. He has nothing to do with running the event, just fishes. I know Rick G. does not agree, okay, that's Rick's opinion and choice. It's America !!

The way I remember the change of the TOC is as follows. After the first event several of us voiced concern over the change from the previous 2 years that seemed to be working and growing. Somehow it got changed and the advisory board was not used. Basically, the advisory board did not have input. The change was made after the first event with 2 remaining, Delta and Clear Lake. I'm talking North because I honestly did not know what was going on in the South.

The hold out money is to try and reward the anglers following the circuit. Most of you can't seem to realize that fisherman that only fish one lake are killing our sport. What is wrong with thinking out of the box to try and get participation ? Someone has to try something different because right now nothing is working.

I do not think a change should be made after the start of a season. But so what? Every fisherman that fished Oroville would have anyway. If you didn't fish Oroville, you didn't have a dog in the fight.

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Re: A question of business ethics

Postby sTony » Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:16 pm

Look at it this way... early June, Clear Lake, Pro-Am event... and 51 boats turned up. If you can't draw more then that to Clear Lake for a Pro Am in the spawn/post spawn of early June, you're probably done already, already.

'Nuf said!

But hey, after what happened after last year's season ending event, why would anyone question anything about any of this stuff, I wonder.

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Re: A question of business ethics

Postby CN » Tue Jun 14, 2011 6:45 pm

I've ran the same business for the last 28 years. I have alot of compatition some I refer some I dont.

To answer the original question and not turn it into a Tournament bitch fest if it's not against the rules and EVERYONE that fished these event's knew it was OK for him to fish then no problem right.

Mr.Grover I would not post like this against another business owner on a public site especially if you had no interest in these particular events. You asked the question.

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Re: A question of business ethics

Postby Levy » Tue Jun 14, 2011 6:53 pm

Vern wrote:As for Mark fishing his tournaments, He abides by the rules like everyone else.


Funniest post of the year!!! Yeah Mark never has been caught cheating :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: I was going to disqualify myself after I weighed in :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Once again a post and facts questioning Mark M's ethics. What a shocker :lol: :lol: :lol: When will people learn that this guy has no ethics. Eventually he will burn all of you clones and we will be done with him once and for all.

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Re: A question of business ethics

Postby Rick G » Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:44 pm

Ok, let me re ask with a different scenerio. Lets say Bob Twileger, owner of Western Outdoor News decides to fish the US Open this year as a AAA. This is a big event in the companies year and a staple of Western Bass Tournament culture. Mr Twileger just happens to get 3 great draws :D and wins the AAA side of things. If you were a AAA, would you be bummed? There was never any intention to make this post a "Who qualifies or not" post against A/C. If the owner loves to fish, thats awesome, go on Tour in BASS, or FLW or fish some Team events with your kid, but if you want more guys for your OWN Pro-ams, stand there at each event, shake their hands, ask them how you can service them better, and thank everyone there for supporting YOUR OWN business. Want a Tournament Org success story? Down here we have NBW, and it smokes most of the competition at our best lake DVL in Team draws. The owners run great events, have great customer service and bust their you know whats to make everyone happy. No drama, just good service. Thats how to get growth in Tournament participation.
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Re: A question of business ethics

Postby lunker punker » Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:51 pm

Rick,
Do you understand the flood gates you are opening? Can we have an intelligent disscussion about YOUR BUSINESS ETHICS as well? You can sit here and split kizunt hairs all day if you like but you are opening yourself up to a lot of criticism. SPEAK WISELY............................
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Re: A question of business ethics

Postby Vince Borges » Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:02 pm

Couldn't have said it better LP! And yes I could name business's that have been screwed over by Mr.Grover!! Talk about business ethics!! It's simple Rick, there were 3 tournaments leading up to this TOC. There was not ONE single complaint about Mark fishing them. At the TOC there was not one complaint or protest about Mark fishing it! If the anglers envolved don't give a crap, why do you, a NON customer feel you have the right or ethics to complain about it on a open forum! Get a clue and a life!
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Re: A question of business ethics

Postby jiggin4bass » Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:29 pm

RICK buy anglers choice and then you wont have nothing to complain about im sure mr mendez would sell it to you for the right price. gezzzzzzzz a guy fishing his own tournaments what well people cry about next

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Re: A question of business ethics

Postby Rick G » Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:32 pm

For some reason Vince you seem to think I have it out for Mark which I dont. I support A/C and have for years. If Bob T did the same thing I would question him also. All of the Tournament Org's, tackle shops, bassboat dealers are in this business together. We all want it to see it get better, and that is the reason I care, period. No more no less.
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