Being BackSeated

[Ricky-S]

I know that this has been discussed before but in light of some calls and emails that I have recently received I feel that it may be necessary to revisit this debate. I would say that if you poled all of the co anglers that I have fished with over the last 10 plus years many (95%) would tell stories of me stop fishing, giving baits, allowing use of my tackle, not accepting gas money, returned to get lures that were hung up, and even helping some to catch fish off of beds that would not help me. Unfortunately, these are not usually the stories that get told.

I would also like to say that as a former co-angler myself, and as a pro, I have been back seated, and as such I know what it looks and feels like. In one of my first tournaments on the Delta in an AC tournament (non-shared weight) I was out fishing my pro on a crankbait which I only had two of. I got hung up and each time asked if my pro would return to get them. I was also put on the bank and not given fishable water. Did I complain or tell everyone my story? No, I went on to get a top 10 in the tournament and out fish the pro in question. The second time occurred in one of my first pro tournaments in BASS when it was pro on pro draw. The other pro in question would not (did not) allow me control of his boat or use of the boat on my water. Once again, I did not complain and went on to get a check in the tournament and took it as a lesson learned.

Fast forward to the present. I only bring this up because the rumor mill is running and there appears to be a very fine line as to when co anglers feel that there are being back seated. Let’s not mistake personality conflicts, the lack of angling skills, or the inability to adjust to your pro as being back seated.

To set the tone, I will say that everyone that has traveled as my co-anglers and practiced with me over the years has been successful co anglers. Kyle Baker, Roy Desmangles (not that I am claiming his fame as he is one of my mentors), Shawn Milligan, Lewis Milligan, and several others have cashed checks, made cuts, won tournaments, and even AOY titles. I am not saying that I am entirely responsible, rather, that I have an idea of what it takes to be successful as a co-angler. I myself experienced success as a co angler in WB, WCB, and AC having made it championships, cashed checks and such. I have had the opportunity to talk to and fish with some of the best co-anglers in tournament fishing and there is a difference in the way that they approach fishing as a co angler. Being back seated really centers on fishing for fish that the pro is not. This can range from their baits, to their techniques, and ultimately fishing against that fish and not the pro.

From what I have observed and experienced, what most people are calling being back seated is nothing more than not being able to adapt to a certain fishing style or pace of fishing. We all have our favorite fishing styles and oft times as a co angler may or may not be able to fish that way. This is not to say that people are not being back seated, because some are. But I would argue that these cases are more infrequent than what is currently being discussed. Nonetheless, I would say that we as anglers need to do a better job of communicating with one another.

These tournaments are meant to be fun. They should be fun. They ARE fun. Don’t let the money involved control the end result. I would say that if you feel that you are being back seated then communicate with your pro before it gets to the point. Do it in a respectful way. At the same time, know that you are fishing against some co anglers that want you to get out of your game. Anglers that will get their five fish no mater the situation that are in or regardless of who they draw. Be flexible and don’t spend the day changing lures all the time. Fish your strengths when things get tough and take what water you get.

Ask your pro questions-What should I be doing? Do you think this or that would work. Can I have one of those baits? You might find that most pros want their cos to catch fish. At least I do!

[j10b]

Backseated is when your pro/boater moves the boat ruining every cast on purpose because he is scared you will catch a fish. Not to mention making you break off then, going past your broken lure to get his hung jig.
Unless you are stuck fishing open water with nothing to throw at, IE ledges you need to adapt not whine

[Jim V.]

Well said Dr. Ricky.

I don't think I have ever truly been backseated as a co-angler - and I've fished quite a few FLW & BASS tournaments with both big names & locals. I've had good days & bad days on the water catching fish, but Ive always tried to have fun. It is what you make of it. There is always something to learn and sometimes you can even teach the guy at the pointy end something that helps him.

I've traveled & fished with Ricky and he is very much the gentleman. He is always willing to share info & offer tips to make your day on the water more productive.

If you haven't fished an FLW event, try it next year. It's almost like a 2 day guide trip.

[afdean]

Well said Ricky. I think what a lot of co-anglers see as being back-seated is simply the pro keeping his bait in the primary strike zone (burning down the bank making parallel casts) Admittedly it can be tough when your pro is running and gunning making only a few casts at each stop, but if that is his strength or what got him 5 good ones in practice... who can fault him? I see fishing backseat as an additional challenge. It is a way you can be forced to learn how to catch fish that have already been fished for, as well as learn from the pro what power-fishing techniques you maybe should brush up on. The last thing I'll say is ALWAYS do something different. If the guy up front is doing his job, you should HAVE to do something different to get 5 bites.

[mac (Doyle McEwen)]

Rarely if ever is the co-angler/back seat truly left with no water to fish or fish to catch..I general the boater/ front seater may have the first opportunity, but rarely will they catch the only fish in a given area..Even if the back was using the exact same bait as the front the opportunity to catch fish is still there,,Many times a fish just doesn't go for the first bait it sees or senses..I fished behind a gentleman that was flipping jigs into shoreline cover and followed behind him often flipping into the same pocket he just pulled a fish out of and also pulled fish out..I have done the same fishing Senkos and even crankbaits and spinnerbaits..Just because the boater takes a fish out of a certain section of cover does not always mean there are no other fish there..Sometimes the fish I pulled following the boater catch were bigger than his catch from the same spot, sometimes they weren't..If the boat positioning doesn't allow you to follow behind your boater, then obviously you have to try domething different..If he is hugging the tules and casting forward with a crank, you can flip into the tules, of course you will probably be doing so at a much faster pace than you might like, but it can and does still catch fish..If he is working the inside weedline, try the outside..It may not be as productive, but it can be productive..

mac

[Pearl Swimbaits]

Why is it ALWAYS about the guy in the back having to adjust. Sure you can catch a fish anywhere........got that but two in the boat shared weight or not is a TEAM effort what works best for all.

If the pro is so good.....be pro do us up put us on them bro!

The fact of the matter boys, like every other pro sport EGO runs the boat and most cant get past it. To operate the boat so both people benefit is much harder to do than fishing from the back.

Most of my bass fishing is in the ocean..... currents, tides, bait, swell, wind and 5 rocks in 40 ft of water it takes work to put/keep the boat in the zone for best results...........if your not willing to put in that kind of effort tell the skidmark of a backseater that you dont plan on making it easy on him so he can make an educated descion not one of anger.

Its a shame but Pro fishing sure seems a lot like little league, guys doin donuts around other guys, backseated, protests geez whats next an allstar game and performance enhan. drugs.

Treat the guy in back like someone who matters he might have to pull u out of the drink one day
Treat him like crap and that might be why ur in the drink

[BMX Bassin]

Fishing the back is a different beast. I fished with Ricky and had a great time. we laughed...he cried...lol...

I think sometimes its more difficult than others to fish the back and I dont think I ever had a Pro backseat me on Purpose. But on accident,....hell yeah, because he is tring to catch fish for himself.... But thats the challenge of the back.

I fish in front now and realize that sometimes you put th back seater in a bad position but I am concious of it and try to help out like Ricky does.

[mac (Doyle McEwen)]

Just about any way you want to look at it, the person on the front will generally have first shot at what they consider the prime spots..This being said, just how often is that prime spot truly the "prime" spot..Some people will really disect the area and check all or most of the possible "prime spots" in a given area..There are times when just a matter of an inch on a cast will make all the difference in a strike or not..I know there are some pros/boaters that many consider vacuum cleaners and indeed they probably do not miss many..But no one catches all of them..As a back decker, your opportunities may be somewhat restricted, but there is no way they are made absolutely zero..The boater can make it more difficult or easier for you to catch fish, you are the one that has to do the catching..Sometimes, just like the boaters, we have a really bad day and don't catch any..

mac

[Pearl Swimbaits]

Communication and Awareness solve 99.9% problems. Start the day w/both and you will be very happy.

[Marty]

This is a subject that will not be solved anytime soon! One co-angler says no and the other says yes. At one time I though if I had water to fish I could catch fish – I don’t believe that any more. But I don’t say I have been backseated, it is his water. He spent his time looking for it so he can win not for you to win. Sure there are times the Pro will go out of their way to try and get you your limit. I have enjoyed fishing with some of the Pro’s that I have been out with. In fact I was in awe that I got to fish with some of them.

It is funny that everyone comes on here (WBC) asking or looking for information about the key little things to catch more or bigger Bass. What line to use, what rod to use, what bait to use, on what side of the tulle to cast too, what tide should we fish, and what color to use. We talk about precision casting to that one little spot to catch that one fish. But then the same come on and say if you have water you will catch fish. That is bull!

I have fished out in the middle of a lake with water all round me but the Pro was fishing a 10 by 10 foot hump in 30 feet of water with the nose of the boat pointing into that hump. But of course you don’t know he is fishing this hump until after you leave. Is that being backseated? He got his limit and I did not get one fish.

I have being fishing in 2 feet of muddy water along tulle edge while the Pro was flipping with the nose of the boat in the tulles. There is not much left! He weight in more then 25 lbs where as I had zero. Is that being backseated?

I have been up against the bank while the Pro has the TM on high cranking right next to the bank. It is real hard to drop shot or drag a worm at that speed and after losing three cranks in the rock you start to wonder. He had his limit and again I just said I had a great day. Is that being backseated?

You have a Pro dragging a worm on the out side while right next to the bank (I mean 2 to 3 feet from the bank) and asked you not to cast over his line – what is left. Is that being backseated?

And everyone knows about bed-fishing. Is that being backseated?

I say no to each one, I knew want I was getting into. I was fishing off his boat and on this water.

This is just my opinion and you don’t have to agree with it. The only reason there is Co-angler (backseats) is to keep the front seat honest and that is the only reason. If they could find another way of keeping everyone honest then there is no need for Co-anglers and there is no problem of backseating.

I once said I was not ready to move to the front because I have not won anything and I would not like to go out and the Co-Angler blank because I did not find fish. But after 4 years from the back seat the best chance to get wood or into the money is to move up front if I have the money and the fish. That way it will be my boat, my water, and my fish! Next week will be my last time as a Co-Angler!

[biteme]

I dont fish many Tournaments. That said, if someone did the things you talked about Marty I would tell him to take me to the dock. Good luck and good day.
I dont pay a entry to get a tan.

[lowerider]

I think biteme has a good point. I understand adapting to the pro's style of fishing but if I'm paying money to fish I am going to get my line wet PERIOD.
"You have a Pro dragging a worm on the out side while right next to the bank (I mean 2 to 3 feet from the bank) and asked you not to cast over his line."
This guy would have either refunded my entry fee or I would have casted over him all day. I understand the other scenarios you described Marty but this one is total B.S. In my opinion.

[keithcant]

Marty, Hats are off to you. You are far more 'understanding' than many.In some ways I see your point, but at the same time if it isn't shared weight- the "Co" is fishing his own tournament and the scenario call for an opportunity to have a chance @ fish.

But, as far as opportunity - the guy in the back may just have to innovate and create his own in light of the 'style' the boat operator presents. Just look at The US Open a few yrs ago. The 'zipper' was a prototype possessed by few and Dave Peltier had to keep releasing line to 'worm fish' while Roland Martin had the T/M @ water ski speed. As I understand it took Peltier's third nice fish for Roland to wake up. Sometimes the barren water----isn't.

Shared Wt = Team fishing.
Non-shared calls for a significant degree of cooperation.
But again, Marty you are a patient and more understanding man than many.

[Ricky-S]

Great points Marty. I will add this to the conversation. I have a 19 year old co-angler that for the most part is new to tournament fishing and has fished the Stren for the last two seasons. Up until then he fished from the bank! In fact, most of the lures, rods/reels, and line that he uses was given to him by many of my close friends because he did not have any.

He and I talk about his appraoch to fishing in the back of the boat and the fact that he is fishing against the fish and the other co anglers. We talk about baits, presentations, and what options are available under similar situations that you wrote about. In fact, he now understands what to do in those very situations as we practice placing him into them during official practice. In stead of getting mad and frustrated we focus on what options may be available to him to scratch out fish the pro is not targeting.

The end result has been that he has won more many than many of the pros out there, including a boat and checks in 90% of the tournaments that he has fished. My point is that his goal has been to master the "art" of fishing in the back of the boat. It is an art and a skill very different than fishing in the front.

My point is that every co angler is fishing against each and over the course of a 2-3 day event may find themself in one of those situations. If you know this, you can begin to appraoch the water with lures and tech that in most cases will get you five fish until you move on to the next and new partner.

[Wolfeman]

Marty,
I'm willing to bet that each one of those Pro's that put you in those tough situations got a decent wad of cash from you for your share of the expenses (gas, launch, etc.) at the end of the day.
Good luck on the pointy end.
- Wolfeman

[TroyUAL777]

Honestly, sometimes I wonder if it's even remotely on purpose. As both a boat owner and back seater, I really think sometimes these guys are just "Not that into you" sorta speak. The mind is focused on me,me,me,fish,fish,me,me.

I've found myself going out of my way as a boat owner to position the boat in a way that I pick virtual casting points for myself ahead of the boat and a strike zone for my partner. I've found myself apologizing in heavy wind if the boat swings to that dreaded 12'oclock position.

It can be frustrating more that your not appreciated as a fellow angler and partner for the day....that's my deal that burns me - the respect thing - no amount of money should buy that - it's really what team fishing SHOULD be all about - even in a draw - unless your partner is an asshole....lol (can't believe the filter didn't take that out...sorry kids)

[12lblargemouth]

I have only fished one Pro-Am from the backseat and at one point was kinda discouraged by the way part of one of my days went. But then after time to think about the situation, being a boat owner and super competetive person, and fishing tournaments in my own boat. I reminded myself why I signed up for the event in the first place, and that was to learn, Period! There is some things that should be a given as just a normal curteous / respectful person, front man or back seater. Other than that it is the Pro's event that is on the line Period. They are the ones that have put alot more on the line as far as entry fee's, boat, gear, travel, fuel, practice time, and even alot times family sacrafices as well. The Pro is there to win, he doesnt know you. He doesnt know if you are given a chance to catch that fish out of that spot that your not gonna DUFF off a fish that he probably would have landed and might have anchored his limit? He has no idea of your skills or competency and he is most likely gonna take all the water he can get without having to involve the un-known, which makes complete since if you think about it. As a non-boater you are spending half as much entry, with a tremendously reduced amount of over all expenses, & time. As a CO I think you have to look at it as purely a chance to learn. Watch the way he runs his day, his boat, his presentations, bait selections, the water he fishes. It is all about learning which will be there for the taking, and a few fish in-between or a check should just be icing on the cake. If you are looking for more equality in the boat find a buddy to Team Tourney circuit with, instead of the draw tourney's , or maybe get a guide for the day? Most the draws you get are a chance at a wealth of knowledge, take advantage of it! But of course this is just the way I look at it, for what its worth!

[TroyUAL777]

Gonna stand on the "Pay it forward" principle - but I'm a dreamer I suppose - I agree with your explanation of who might have more on the line - but without beating a dead horse - A pro-am should be an understanding on both the pro and the am - I'm not so sure the "am" should have to prove him or herself to get some mutual respect. (Especially when chances are you are right - pro doesn't know your abilities

I'll tell you this - I have more respect for anglers that have treated me right over the years that could outfish me blindfolded, without a boat, a fishing pole, or a lure. So as I idolize some of these guys "cooch" for example - it's not because of his fishing ability - it's the fact that some of these guys have total class and don't treat you like a moron (even if you are one...lol) They want to see you do well. When I think of fishing the Delta - I think of cooch taking about 45 mins of his day 12 years ago or so to walk me around the tackle shop as I hadn't a clue

If you are saying "feel lucky to be in a pro-am with a pro" - I gotta say feel lucky to fish with someone that will respect your knowledge, gear, and what you have accomplished - that said, let's go out there as a TEAM and smoke the field with an agreed attitude that back-seating another is a cop out for not being open to the possibilities.

If as a pro - if a pro-am is too much of a gamble, don't fish them. I would say most am's are excited and thrilled to meet/fish with you. I'm just saying communicate with your am and if they can play by your rules, that's one thing, but if you assume and backseat em.....that's just sad. IMHO

[TroyUAL777]

Any backseat stories from pro's you wanna share?

[lowerider]

So 12 Lb. you are saying just leave your rods at home pay your entry fee, hotel, and gas money and just learn from the pro who doesn't say 3 words to you all day?
I am exagerating but I agree communication goes a long way. I understand the pro has a lot more money and time at stake and you have to adapt to His fishing style throughout the course of the day and do the best you can but c'mon. Everyone is there to have fun and learn. All I ask for is common courtesy and respect which I believe 99.9% of fisherman would give a fellow angler.
Some stories Iv'e heard of guys completely shafting the guy in the back is just wrong. I have never had this done to me but heard numerous horror stories. I am sure a lot of pros have horror stories as well. Lol. I would love to hear some.

[gunnie2]

I agree is everything RS said. But all pros try their hardest to keep co's- from catching fish. Now this may change in a shared weight format or "may" change if the pro is 25lbs behind on the last day, but generally speaking this is the rule. At one time or another EVERY person who has EVER been on the front of the boat in a tourney has intentionally "front-ended", probably should be called intentionally handicapped the guy in the back. To say other wise is being 100% dishonest.

At the same time the co's- know this going in so be prepared for it. Here are the top 10 rules of engagement for co's-

1- Never tell your pro when you have a bite.
2- Never tell him when you see a bed fish.
3- Be aggressive the "Don't cast in front of the windshield rule" is a myth. I'm not saying interefere with his cast, but don't be bullied into taking leftovers.
4- Be respectfull, but never ever allow him to dictate where you can and can't cast.
5- If the guy treated you fair, then man up and hand over the cash. If he didn't then you dont owe him a thing. I always enjoy these so called "guided trips" when the guide was a butthead.
6- 75% of the "pro's" are just regular guys and have skills no better than your own. The truth is they just have more money than you to pay the big entry fee.
7- Just plan on getting one good draw and one bad draw in every tourney. The secret is to figure out how to dodge the bullet when ya get a bad one.
8- Here is another tactic pros will use when they want to work the same stretch of bank multiple times: "Throw something different, you don't want to use the same bait". This may or may not be complete BS. If he is whacking fish then throw the same bait!!
9- Shut the heck up, watch the depth finder, and listen. Most will tell you about the history of a certain location. This can be good info for future trips.
10- Even good pros have bad days. If he isn't on them he will pull out all the tricks. Pay attention you will learn a few things.

[Ricky-S]

Gunnie,
I am not sure that I agree with your top 10. I can honestly say that I have NEVER prevented my co anglers from catching fish. In most cases whether in a shared or non shared weight tournament I fish the event the same way.

Do I have some stories to tell, sure do. But most of my stories are good and out number the bad so I will focus on the good.

As a pro, I don't like the shared weight events,. I didn't like them as a co-angler as well. As a co angler I cashed a check in EVERY non-shared weight I fished (even the ones where I was backseated) and only once in a shared weight event.

If you talk to the top successful co-anglers they will also say that they prefer non-shared weight because it is their skills against the other co-anglers.

From a learning standpoint I would say that the shared weight is better for anglers that are new to tournament fishing.

When I am fishing any tournament I tend to not even worry about the co-angler as I am focusing in on reading the water and listening to my instincts. I don't have time to front end a person as I am trying to watch the water, my baits, and nature.

I think some people are putting too much energy into things that happen as happening on purpose.

Oh yeah and the horror stories go both ways, but in 99% of the time each angler meets and makes a new friend. My point is that only the 1% makes it on the net or around the tackle store. Guys having a bad day on the water have resulted to saying that they were backseated as opposed to saying they just didn't bite today.

[Murph]

Gunnie, I too, disagree with some of your comments and tactics. It seems to me that most would only create conflict. I'm all for some type of Grading system for all Draw Tourneys. Believe me, the guy up front doesn't always have all of the answers. This year in the Stren Series, I've had some of the "Best in the Business", when it comes to the Backseat, and our days went just fine, (other than catching winning quality of fish). Healthy attitudes in the front and back, make for a much more pleasant day on the water.

[j10b]

I have been backseated many times, but I was able to make something of it most of the times.

I dont think being backseated, is shown in the standings. Being Backseated is the act of the pro that makes you have to struggle to fish.
I have been with pros that turn boats ruining every cast, been asked to "help get the boat off a stump" when I drop a bait in the perfect spot. If I didnt get up there fast enough, had to leave the rod as you cant fish from the front... in his words. he would shake the boat with the TM or rock it so almost went out.

I have been told I am not allowed on the front deck to land a fish. Next Tournament I asked the TD at the meeting and 398 other anglers looked at me like I was crazy, till I followed up with " some of the pros won't allow Cos to go up and land a fish"

If someone can tell me how me having to dropshot while the pro is fishing is 2 feet of water with 65lb braid is NOT back seating....
My DS was in 30+ft of water. I couldnt throw anything else as the only thing I caught was stripers which even ate brush hawgs.

I agree 99% of the time with the 10 Rules of being a being a CO. Except one point, you have a 75% chance of a bad draw. I can't tell you how many times I have salvaged my pros day.
No I dont think I am any better than the guy infront of me.... but I did learn when I patterned the fish, told my pro what was going on. He said "lets go" I offered him everything, my bait, rod reel, whatever. I just had a 4lber and he trolled so fast I missed another strike. WE LEFT BITING FISH!

Anyway I learned that for a few hundred bucks more I could struggle just as bad but at least I could try my stuff. I have a boat, its just far away. I was flying to these events so I was paying more than the "pros" in most cases. Airfare in summer 2008 was pricey. Not mention hotes ad a rental car shipping my gear back and forth as well.

I have had some good draws. My ratio is about a 20% chance of a guy on any fish. I have had the pro that thinks he is a guide... and a lousy one at that. But still thinks he should get PAID. I own my own boat, fly across the country to fish, and pay one hell of a lot more than he did, and we only caught fish on my stuff. WHy should I give you a nickle? You caught my fish, and I caught 1 or 2 as I'll be honest MOST of my stuff isnt a 10 fish spot.

Oh I have never taken a dime from a Co Angler and unless I really run I wont. I have put every Co I have had but one in the money. I will backtroll to help.
I think a boater should have to fish at least 2 events from the back of the boat before they are allowed to the front.

Either way we usually have a good time and for me its going out there to ave fun. I'M not under the illusion that in a non shared event that the tournament is ANY indication of your skill. Most of the time it comes to which pros that are in the draw are on fish.

Im the Co that will put my rods down and let a pro get a limit. As in I never cast over you, never cast to your blowup, and would rather see you catch big fish and learn something.