foul hooked fish

ns nitro · Post by **ns nitro** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:41 am

just wanted some input on this matter. I fished a club tournament at lower otay on saturday. I caught a 5.3 lmb on a rico. The fish slapped at the bait and was hooked out side the mouth. The back seater said that was NOT a legal fish. I released the fish to avoid the crying and drama. The fish would have got me second place and big fish and possibly cost me the AOY for my club. Any input would help on this matter

Lance · Post by **Lance** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:49 am

As far as know (not sure of the rules where you are) your back seat guy is 100 correct, you did the right thing

Tony Lain · Post by **Tony Lain** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:03 am

I like it, a man with honor!!! I know it hurt you big time, but you did the right thing. Did you see Kennedy at this years Elite Series Clear Lake tourney? He did the same thing with 4 or 5 huge bass, but he too displayed honesty and integrity, and released the foul hooked fish. Fishing for $250K or $2K, that rule in a tourney hurts. We feel your pain...But if you believe in Karma, you'll get'em another day!

big_gorilla · Post by **big_gorilla** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:08 am

It was the right thing to do. It is CA law.

I would definitely bring it up at the club meeting so everyone knows they have to follow that rule.

What amazes me is no tournament circuits around here bring that up. Especially this time of year when reaction baits are used.

Like Tony said good Karma will come your way.

CharlieS. · Post by **CharlieS.** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:09 am

Happened to myself and team partner twice at DV. Different events, culling..we would have hit checks both times. But nope..it was the right call to say byby to em. Its unfortunate ,yes..and yea,some would weigh it in and say"naw-that must have been the last guy the got it" . And would have to lie saying it. Charlie

Mike Phua · Post by **Mike Phua** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:12 am

I've talked to a few tournament directors over the new ruling and several of them have said that the fish in question is indeed a legal fish in their eyes but on the otherhand have also said that if you get cited by DFG you are DQ'd. Go figure. There was a lengthy discussion on the Northern Board and as I read it there seems to be some loop holes in the way the law was written. From my understanding the law was passed to prevent poachers from snagging salmon. I'm sure some of those guys who in on that Northern Board thread could let some insight on what they know. MP

Mike Giusti · Post by **Mike Giusti** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:12 am

The backseater is wrong. According to the regulation if the fish attempts to take the bait on it own it is a legal fish. There is nothing in the regulations that says the hooks have to be in the mouth.

The regulations was intended to prevent snagging of fish not to restrict and angler who is using a reaction bait that a fish tries to eat. I asked several wardens about this at the Fred Hall show and they all told me the same thing. If the fish takes the bait on its own it is legal.

Mike

Mike Phua · Post by **Mike Phua** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:16 am

Thanks for clearing that up Mike. I've been told by several people as well but its great to hear it from someone from the dept. As for Nate...................OUCH! MP

CharlieS. · Post by **CharlieS.** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:17 am

Yea,I agree that the original intent...etc..etc...letter of law-spirit of the law .But where can you draw the line ? 2 fish with head marks..one from foul hooked ,one from seeing it on a bed and rippin a swimbait treble hook ? I agree-it sucks...but if one would have asked me..was the hook inside its mouth....

Mike Phua · Post by **Mike Phua** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:23 am

Charlie I definitely agree with you but I think Honor, Integrity, and Karma take over at that point.

Two different scenarios:

Fishing with the intent to snag.

Fishing with the intent to catch a donkey on the top water and it gets a hook outside the mouth. MP

ns nitro · Post by **ns nitro** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:36 am

thanks gusti, I was told by a friend that u said it was a legal fish. I feel I did the right thing at the time but I should have weighed the fish and let them file a protest.

Ron C · Post by **Ron C** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:47 am

...I have been asked this question several times and my answer is simple - If the fish was not intentionally snagged, it is a legal catch.

If we had to release all of the fish that we unintentionally foul hooked with a jerkbait, spoon, crankbait, spook, swimbait, (etc.), we would be releasing 75% of our fish.

If an angler fishing one of my team tournaments were cited for unintentionally snagging a bass (which I do not think will ever happen anyways), I would not D.Q. them. Obviously, they would still be responsible for taking care of the citation in court (and I would encourage them to fight it), but I would not D.Q. them from the tournament.

This regulation was clearly intended for salmon fishing, but it was worded poorly. In my opinion and interpretation, accidentally or unintentionally foul hooking a bass was not the intent of this regulation whatsoever.

big_gorilla · Post by **big_gorilla** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:12 am

Yeah Mike thanks for clearing that up.

So why did BASS tell them they had to release fish caught like that? Kennedy could have shattered the record even more.

I agree with MP good Karma and Honor I would take any day.
I have released big sight fish that I hooked on the outside.

Mike Giusti · Post by **Mike Giusti** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:23 am

I don't know why BASS did it the way they did. My understanding was that they had a 4 hour meeting to explain what they wanted the anglers to do. I don't think FLW had the same rule.

It is pretty simple if you make a blind cast and a fish eats your bait it is legal. If you see a fish and use a bait with treble hooks on it and set the hook before the fish even moves you are snagging.

I think every one knows when they are snagging and when they are fishing.

Mike

Lance · Post by **Lance** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:23 am

Its my opinion, but since there are "cheaters" out there perhaps more than we know, I can only assume that there are guys that will intentionally snag a fish. The problem is how can you tell the differance between an a intentionally snagged fish and a accidentally snagged fish. TD's dont have the time to inspect every fish on both sides when you have a line of people waiting at the scales. Since there is a wittness needed to prove a snagging "case" I again can assume that a guilty party will never be caught. I think the rule as we know it (no hooks outside the fish) is perfect. It upholds the image of sportsmanship and honesty, not to mention its pretty clean cut.

ns nitro · Post by **ns nitro** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:40 am

we all know whats right and wrong. If you have to intentionally snag a fish to catch it maybe you should take up couch surfing. The rule sucks and it needs to be fixed. NS

Guy Williams · Post by **Guy Williams** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:45 am

Hey Nate, tell that guy in the back of the boat to stop watching bassmasters and then think he knows it all. Damm gadgit man!!!
Guy Williams

Basn Dan · Post by **Basn Dan** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:53 am

For reference, here is the words as writted n the DFG Regs,
"(c) It is unlawful to kill, or retain in possession
any fish which has not voluntarily taken the bait
or artificial lure in its mouth. Any fish not taken
pursuant to these regulations, shall be released
immediately back into the water."

That doesn't leave a lot to be questioned. Even though it says "voluntary" it still says "in the mouth".

Question... We all have caught a fish on a lure with multiple hooks, if some hooks are on the outside of the mouth, where does that fall in?

Just a thought.
Danny

mark poulson · Post by **mark poulson** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 12:11 pm

I've had jerkbait and crank fish come to the boat with hooks in both the mouth and gillplate, and, by the time they're lipped or netted, they've thrown the front/mouth hook. I saw the hook in their mouth, so I know they weren't snagged outside the mouth, but the front hook pulled out before they were landed.

DeltaBound · Post by **DeltaBound** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 12:11 pm

Why did Steve Kennedy throw back all them big fish at the BASS Clear Lake tourney?

Guy Williams · Post by **Guy Williams** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 12:26 pm

Why did bassmasters have a 4 fish limit before that?
Guy Williams

drew · Post by **drew** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 2:02 pm

Hooked in the mouth may not mean just inside the mouth. I believe if the fish is hooked around the outside into the mouth it is legal. Sometimes the front hook of bait ends up outside on the gill plate and the rear was in the mouth, but came loose during the fight. I have seen pros look inside for tissue damage and remnants of tissue from the inside of the mouth on the unattached hook. Time for another back seater. At least you can say you made an error on the side of honesty.

DanWarme · Post by **DanWarme** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 2:36 pm

[quote="Basn Dan"]For reference, here is the words as writted n the DFG Regs,
"(c) It is unlawful to kill, or retain in possession
any fish which has not voluntarily taken the bait
or artificial lure in its mouth. Any fish not taken
pursuant to these regulations, shall be released
immediately back into the water."

That doesn't leave a lot to be questioned. Even though it says "voluntary" it still says "in the mouth".

So apparently since this is a legal matter, we have to devine the fish's state of mind when it got hooked. Thanks DFG for yet another ..... anyway, before I go off on a tangent.

Here is the guidelines I have used for years.

1. Could the fish be seen before it was hooked? That makes the fish much more prone to being intentionally snagged. The conditions to me help dictate the issue. If they are thick as sockeyes in a little creek and a guy is jerking a ton of trebles back to him hard and fast, its snagging not fishing.
Also if it is sight fishing, bed scenerio; much more likely to have snagging involved. Because of the chances of snagging, many circuits require the competing pro to veryify the hook is inside the mouth when bed fishing.

2. At other times, when fishing any of a ton of reaction baits, (and you can't visually see the fish, then the line gets much more fuzzy. IMO (and I'm not the one who is determining the rules or law, keep that in mind if you are protested or in court) I personally feel that if the lure can hit the fishes mouth from where its at, it's a legal catch. By that I mean, say a bass hits a rapala sideways, but only gets hooked by the tail hook in the outside of the head. To me it's obvious that he was trying to eat the bait. The bait can swing to his mouth, or be in an eatting position from where it was so in my book, its a legal fish. If you have one hooked in the tail, (and the bait can't reach the mouth) then it was a snagged fish.

Bottom line, If you have doubts or questions, ask the TD before the tournament for their take on the issue.

My 2 cents

hippie · Post by **hippie** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:11 pm

phua i could of swarn del ponting summed it up or wait did you hum m anyways i thought bill brought it up at one of his tournies and giusti made that call along time ago after the BASS showing . i guess your to busy spying in everyones boat to win angler of the year DV. you one smart dude not looking in my boat

Robert F · Post by **Robert F** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:42 pm

Mike Giusti wrote: If you see a fish and use a bait with treble hooks on it and set the hook before the fish even moves you are snagging.

I think every one knows when they are snagging and when they are fishing.

Mike

Question. Is that "and or AND" between see a fish, use a bait with treble hooks, set the hook before the fish moves. This statement sure does open up the jig on the bed discussion. I do not believe that most sight fishermen intentionally snag bed fish with a jig. It sure does happen a lot. This statement actually has WR implications. I also know a guy that put back an 8 at the Delta NG as he thought it was an illegal fish.

Hutch · Post by **Hutch** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:03 pm

The regs requiring the fish to voluntarily take the lure in the mouth is new as of Jan 1 2007. So all those tournaments you had before where you could weight a fish that swatted at your crankbait and got hooked in the head, is just history - bygone days, no more. The reg was enacted to put to rest the controversy about the 25-lb'er accidentally snagged last year at Dixon.

The new rule is pretty simple - if your fish is not hooked in its mouth, you have to immediately release it. Query - how do you suppose you could get a fish to involuntarily take the lure in its mouth? Make it an offer it can't refuse? Snag it in the middle of a yawn?[/i]

hippie · Post by **hippie** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:32 pm

hey not bill hutch im so glad you cleared up our discussion . you really have alot of insight to this matter. i think you may be alittle late on your great ruling. One of our local DFG kind of somed it up ,but maybe you know something he doesn't (NOT)

Mike Phua · Post by **Mike Phua** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:34 pm

For you clueless wonders who don't know................... Mike Giusti who responded on this post is with the DFG. That's why a few of us thanked him after he responded. MP

Lance · Post by **Lance** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:38 pm

Mike Giusti wrote:

If you see a fish and use a bait with treble hooks on it and set the hook before the fish even moves you are snagging.

I think every one knows when they are snagging and when they are fishing.

Mike

Mike, the above is clear but how does a TD make a ruling on if an angler snagged a fish or caught a fish?

Hutch · Post by **Hutch** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:55 pm

It's nice that someone from DF&G responded, but he was mistaken when he opined "The backseater is wrong. According to the regulation if the fish attempts to take the bait on it own it is a legal fish. There is nothing in the regulations that says the hooks have to be in the mouth. "

The regulations do say the hooks have to be in the mouth. Mike infers that as long as you do not intentionally snag the fish, it is a legal catch. That was the rule before 1/1/07. Now, the test is not what you, the angler, are intending to do. Whether you intended it or not, if the fish is hooked outside the mouth, it is not a legal fish. The backseater had it right.

Robert F · Post by **Robert F** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:00 pm

Mike Phua wrote:For you clueless wonders who don't know................... Mike Giusti who responded on this post is with the DFG. That's why a few of us thanked him after he responded. MP

And that is why many of these additional questions were raised. If it is dark and you drop a jig on a nest from a good distance and see the white flash, who is to say that the fish did not move to the bait? Everybody will swear that their intention was not to snag. Is snagging only done with treble hooks? BTW not Bill Hutch, NOWHERE do I see the hook has to be in the fishes mouth.

Hutch · Post by **Hutch** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:27 pm

Look at reg. 2.00(b), which prohibits snagging a fish, and broadly defines snagging as impaling a fish in any part of its body other than its mouth by use of a hook, hooks, gaff, or other mechanical implement.

This is the subparagraph just before (c), which requires the fish to take the bait in its mouth. Yeah, it's possible for a fish to take a bait in its mouth and get hooked outside its mouth with no hooks in its mouth, but in that scenario, it can't be kept and has to be released immediately.

Guy Williams · Post by **Guy Williams** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 6:52 am

sTony · Post by **sTony** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:17 am

It really boils down to one element only and that is what the tournament org is going to do should you bring in a fish that was unintentionally hooked anywhere other then inside the mouth.

Obviously this is all about reading and knowing the rules of the tournament you're currently fishing and they almost all vary in small ways.

The DFG fishing code has been built up over many years to cover several different species of fish that are being caught and in most cases kept. Most tournament officials are going to ask you if you were sight fishing or not and if you weren't then it really isn't going to matter to most whether the fish came up and swiped at your bait and got hooked outside the mouth. They'll still accept it as a legal fish. BASS and WON Bass appear to be taking a very literal interpretation and if you're fishing in their events you need to know their ruling. FLW, AC, ABA, 100%, NBW and others might do it differently and you should check with them prior to blast off about how they'd rule.

It's high unlikely that DFG is going to be around to witness your catch and it's difficult in most cases to tell where a fish was hooked when you caught it after the hook has been removed.

So each club also needs to develop how they're going to interpret the rule and enforce it in their tournaments.

No one's exactly right or wrong just know how it'll be handled in the tournament you're fishing prior to its start and follow their instructions.

sTony

tunaman · Post by **tunaman** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:41 am

Here is the response on behalf of the Director of the California Department of Fish and Game:

Mr. Nelson,
I am responding to your email on behalf of Director Broddrick, requesting clarification on California Code of Regulation section
2.00(c)

Section 2.00 in the Freshwater Sportfishing Regulations describes and limits the "Methods of Take" for sport fishing. Section 2.00 is intended to maintain the sporting nature of "angling" and clearly
separate it from commercial methods of take. Angling as defined in
section 1.05 means to take fish by hook and line with the line held in the hand, or with the line attached to a pole or rod held in the hand or closely attended in such manner that the fish voluntarily takes the bait
or lure in its mouth. This means the fish must take the bait, lure or
hook â€œin the mouth.â€

sTony · Post by **sTony** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:00 am

This right here is another one of those unenforceable rules that way to many guys flat out are going to ignore. There's plenty of stuff in the code about poaching to and no one's out there to enforce them, even when called. I gotta love it! The honest hard working guy out there fishing is going to follow this rule and those that don't follow rules have been given another leg up on ya cause their going to keep these fish regardless of where the fish was hooked.

Most other sport fisherman are in one way or another keeping their catch and 99% of us bass anglers are releasing our catch. There should be a distinction between the two. If a fish comes up and swipes at my rip bait and gets to close and gets hooked I should be able to keep him cause it was a voluntary move on the part of the fish and I wasn't sighting the fish when I did it. I'm going to end up releasing the the fish at some point anyway. The guys that are out there snagging salmon and what not are going to bring their catch home to a frying pan more often then not. Two different distinctions entirely.

I'm also wondering what gives in this regard in every other state.

sTony

Guy Williams · Post by **Guy Williams** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:26 am

Well, I guess Gary Dobyns will never win again!
Guy Williams

Robert F · Post by **Robert F** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:26 am

Just like lake speed limits. One guy follows the rules and putts along to his next spot, the other breaks the rules and gets more fishing time. Arizona and Nevada do allow fish not hooked in the mouth. The wording of this rule still shows the DFGs inability to make a rule based on real life actions. Many fish are caught with the bait out of the fishes mouth. What about stingers and trailers? How many times as pointed out earlier, has a hook pulled out of the mouth but still been in the gill cover? This fishes intent is to kill/eat these baits. Just like the jig on the bed, it should be legal.

Rough Thumb · Post by **Rough Thumb** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:21 am

So define a punch in the mouth...

Rough Thumb · Post by **Rough Thumb** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:21 am

So define a punch in the mouth...

Dynastyworms · Post by **Dynastyworms** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 4:57 pm

just like in the bassmaster elite, i don't remember who it was but the hooked a bass on the outside of its mouth and because he was not sight fishing it was a legal catch. and he did it on tv...... but then again it might be because of the state he was fishing in........

z

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