Lake Oroville slot limit. DFG meeting

[NaCl]

There are outstanding fisheries where spotted bass limits easily reach 15- 18 pounds. These spots are well fed and very healthy. The spots in Oroville are unnaturally stunted due to the abundance of tiny baitfish. Imagine the weights that would be produced if spots had plenty of crawfish and bigger bait fish like threadfin or gizzard shad.

I think DFG's focus is in the wrong direction. Don't "manage" the fish, manage the food! Fish size will take care of itself.

.....NaCl

ps Slot limits don't work on Oroville because people are targeting salmon for food, not tiny little spots! So, if DFG wants to encourage harvesting of little spots, they need to STOP introducing the salmon! DUH!!!!!

[B.Cline]

Lone Angler-My thoughts exactly.

[sTony]

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't some of the problems at Oroville when we speak of the sie of spotted bass directly related tot he type of spots that were originally introduced into the lake? My understanding is when the original planting of spotted bass into the lake was done a species of spot was used that had a genetically stunted growth rate. That these fish would only get to 8 to 10 inches in length maximum?

This is what I've been told anyway.

sTony

[Mikey G]

There used to be threadfin in Oroville, lots of them.

Stony, don't believe everything you hear!!!


Hey Guys, its not as easy as managing "baitfish" or the "spots" its about manageing a complex, non-natural ecosystem. These issues are complex and managers now have the opportunity to look into these complex relationships to find a way to change the regulations to benefit all users, not just us bass guys. They have obligations to provide recreational opportunities beyond bass fishing.

Lets look at the bright side, the problem has been identified, its been noted its time for change, and the agency has given the public user group (us) the opportunity to help provide information and input in the process of developing new regulations.

Mikey G

[B.Cline]

sTONY,
I believe you are referring to the redeye smallmouth. They would only grow to about 12", wich was one of the reasons for the slot limit in the first place. The lake used to be full of them. Now there is
barely any at all. I do not think that it was a result of the slot limit
that reduced the numbers of these fish. I believe it was the introduction of the spots.They thrived and out competed the Redeye,largemouth and smallmouth for food. (just my opinion)

[Fish Chris]

I think the idea reastablishing of Shad should at least be a consideration, and along with proper size management, Oroville should at least be able to support better quality Spotted bass. Again, I would never expect too much from the Largemouths though, as long as the Spots are present.
One thing to keep in mind though...... On average, there will be a pretty much complete Shad kill in Oroville, every 8 to 12 years, so even if Shad were re-introduced, it should not be looked at as a permanent fix.

Oh, and one more thing; It was mentioned that Shad do not handle sudden temperature changes well..... Yes, you can have partial kills (sometimes even major percentages) from a sudden drop from say 52 to 45 degrees (just as an example) but, this is not usually enough to wipe them out completely. There is one precise temperature however, that spells instant lights out for "all" the Shad in a system....... 42 degrees ! Even if it gets there gradually.

Peace,
Fish

[sTony]

No, I'm actually referring to information from a long time prominent angler/activist up at Oroville who told me that the original stocking of spotted bass was done unwittingly with a strain of spots that doesn't grow beyond 8 to 12 inches in length. I'm not making it up, not confusing it with redeye and the source is extremely reliable.

sTony

[B.Cline]

If you are referring to Don Reighly then he said you must have misuderstood what he has said and to give him a call. The redeyes
were crossbreeding with the spots and producing a small stunted fish wich was the reason for the slot limit in the first place.

[The Lone Angler]

Fish Chris,

Not that I doubt you, but out of intellectual curiousity, why will there be a shad dyoff in Oroville every 8-12 years? If your talking population dynamics and carrying capacity, then I get it. If not, I dont.

In my original post, I spoke of a deeeeeeeeeeeep freeze that I'd never seen in the likes of in 40 years. It froze solid here for 7 days. I dont believe the temp got above freezing for a week. Oroville is higher elevation than Yuba city where I am at. It could have been even colder there. The dieoff at oroville/clear lake just happened coincidentially/suspiciously soon after this phenomenon.

Another question for you that throws a wrench into my deepfreeze shad dieoff theory is that Shasta would have gotten as cold as Oroville, but why not the complete dieoff there................

thanks,
Phil Thunen

[Fish Chris]

Thank you for checking me on this...... I was thinking about Clear Lk. again.... seeing as I was just there Weds, and because I am always (secretly) hoping for a massive Shad dyoff there, which leads to one area of surviving Shad, because of a warmwater spring, and consequentally, the most concentrated big catfish bite, one could ever imagine !

Yes...... Oroville might support Shad (on average) 20, 40, or even more years. Definately a different climate than Clear Lk.....

Peace,
Fish

[Fish Chris]

respectfully of course

Of course I know there are lakes which produce Spotted Bass limits of 15 to 18 lbs (Florida limits of 40 lbs sound much more attractive to me) but Oroville used to produce Northern Strain Largemouths, with a few good Smallies thrown in, to produce limits of 15 to 18 lbs, or better. Admittedly, I don't know what the bait size or type was back then. However, if Oroville had NO Spots now, and instead had Floridas, plus plenty of stocker size hatchery Salmon that they do, I don't think they would be any problem with an overpopulation of dinks.

Again, just to reiterate, the way in which Spotted bass will influence a particular fishery is pretty much hit and miss. But looking back at how they have already affected the fisheries which they have been introduced to, it is apparent that they completely destroy quality fisheries like Oroville (once was) about 50% of the time. The other 50% of the fisheries are affected anywhere from substantially, to not all... and everywhere in between.

I have read studies of bait size vs. sportfish size, and I believe those studies have not been very conclusive. Big bait = big bass ? Sometimes, but I have also personally witnessed a 15 plus Largemouth gorging itself on 3/4" Shad at San Pablo Dam Res a few years ago..... a lake which of course, is loaded with hatchery trout.

Hmmmm,
Fish

Bring back quality bass fishing..... Stop the Spotted Bass plague.

[gt5bass]

... factor in the management of the fishery at Oroville. The common, extreme water fluctuation of lake levels required for flood control (the reason for the lakes existence) and water distribution - over a hundred feet a year and sometimes several feet in a day.

Not to say the other topics aren't important but the management of the lake's water level for flood control and then for water distribution for farming and other needs, is a major influence on the lake's fisheries. Remember this lake gets dropped over 100 feet a year, this year so far has been an exception, on a regular basis. This constant yo-yo of the water has destroyed a large amount of the "hard" wood structure. I believe there is still a good Largemouth population in this lake, they just live suspended most of the time to the ever changing lake conditions. This past January, I was out fun-fishin' with my Dad while the guys were pre-fishin' for the WON Pro/Am and I caught more largies than spots with largest just over 4 pounds. The largemouth are there, but I think most guys aren't patient enough to catch them (I catch 90% of my largies on this lake fishing dreadfully slow-can you say, watching paint dry may be faster). I have also seen fish up to, in my guestimation, 12 pounds on beds in the spring, so I know trophy fish live in the lake. Another thing, I think, that makes catching largies tough. is the lake is when the lake is stocked with largemouth, they are usually FLORIDA Bass, whick from my limited research, I am lead to believe that the Florida Bass are the most finicky of Black Bass as they don't like change, but really thrive in relatively consistent conditions with water temp that stays above 55 degrees (I am not a fisheries biologist, just an internet geek ) The smallmouth also seem to be making some sort of comeback, as few of my friends and I have found we can go out several times a year and catch 12 to 15 pounds limits but refuse to do it tourneys as we don't want these fished hammered once people figure out how we are catching them.

As for those "dreaded" spots...when was the last time you fished Oroville for them Chris? I managed to be on the lake almost every day for a week and a half at Thanksgiving time and only caught about 6-8 fish under the slot the whole time. I was catching an average of 20-30 fish per day (one day I lost count at 60) with most fish over 14" (around 2 pounds) and the biggest boated being 4.25 pounds. I also had the privilege of have one, I guestimate, to be around 6 pounds follow another fish to the boat. It appears to me that three to five years ago we had an exceptional spot spawn and that was what caused the abundance of the 12-13" when have endured for the last two years (once again I am not a fisheries biologist and this based on what I have read about spot growth in other lakes around the country). It appears that those fish have "grown" up. I have now fished many lakes with spotted bass in them back east and been hard pressed to catch the better quality limits than I am currently catching at Oroville. Yes, there are a few "trophy"spot fisheries back east that constanty kick out some big limits but I believe that is the exception not the rule based on my experiences fishing back there. I also believe, as with any lake, the guys putting in the work and who concentrate on catchin' the larger fish do so.

As a note on the bait issue...most of the fish I was catchin' were pukin' up 1-2" smelt and 2-2 1/2" bass fry. The bass were also very football shaped They looked like fish pulled out of deep water except the they weren't full of air, they were stuffed with food, solid as a rock!

[The Lone Angler]

Spotted bass are there to stay. Large/smallmouth have a rougher go of spawning because of the dramatic water fluctuations during spawning time. All that is a given and we have little/no influence on.

Collins lake has shad and produces many 5+ spots/year
Folsom ditto
Shasta ditto
bullards bar has no shad and produces millions of <12" that looked like big headed snakes.

Oroville used to have shad and the fish size was measurably larger.

Sure, Fishchris saw a giant eating pondsmelt. Did she get that big eating them?-----Probably not. Set a bowl full of candied walnuts in front of me and I'll be fat and happy. Now, if I had to go find the walnuts, crack, cook, and sweeten them, I have to do much more work and expend much more energy to get the same amount of nutrition.

Yes, I know most of the above mentioned lakes have crawfish, but you don't see BIG spots schooling in 100' on shasta chasing crustaceans!

Was there talk at the DFG meeting about reintroducing shad to Oroville?

Phil Thunen

[Fish Chris]

Hello gt5bass. I'm certainly not overlooking the importance of management (I believe you were speaking of "management" in terms of the lake levels, more so than size, and creel limits, correct ?)

As I had said back in one of my first posts for this thread, I have only fished Oroville a couple times, many years back. And I admitted that most of what I know about Oroville is based on heresay (although I do know quite a bit about bass fisheries in general).
So maybe you will tell me that the lake level was maintained much more consistently, many years back (and I could probably believe that, as I would expect higher demands for water nowadays, than way back then). But then would you say that fluctuations nowadays have more to do with the quality of the fish in Oroville, than does the introduction of Spotted bass ???

As for the quality of the fish that you still get out of Oroville nowadays, either you just do exceptionally well on this lake, or most everybody else that fishes Oroville just doesn't know the lake as well as you do. Believe me, had I been hearing about quality fish like you mentioned, consistently coming from Oroville, from a good number of anglers, over the last several years, my thoughts on Oroville would probably be "first hand".

Peace,
Fish

[Mikey G]

...you guys are killing me

[B.Cline]

I have been fishing Oroville for the past 28 years. I have to say
that it has been about 20 years since I have seen a limit of smallmouth that go 12 to 15 pounds. We see an occasional smallmouth during tournaments but not many at all. I have to admitt that lately the spots are pretty fat. The last couple of tournaments we have seen alot of 10# limits being weighed. 11 to 12 pounds have been winning wich is great for Oroville.We also have seen quite a few high 2 pound to 3 pound fish being weighed. But if you compare that to say Folsom,Collins or Shasta with the number of 4 pound and up fish in those lakes, well there is no comparison.

[NaCl]

When you and others talk about the way things "used" to be, your nostalgia suggests that we can or should return to those days. The unfortunate truth is that sometimes you just can't turn back the clock.

If you recall, the prior good Oroville fishery was "enhanced" by the brain trust at DFG with redeyes...they were trying to "improve" the fishery. It was a disaster! Redeyes quickly populated the lake with sub 12" bass. These little buggers with voracious appetites could spawn successfully in the yoyo water levels. Even if largemouth and smallies successfully spawned, their fry had a weedless environment in which to survive. With no cover, the redeyes could easily decimate the spawn of all other species, ensuring their dominance.

Along comes DFG with a creative "solution" to their own faux pas...the slot limit. It was a great idea! The implementation sucked. DFG forgot about the trend in bass fishing to catch and release. Hmmm??? How are we gonna get rid of them little buggers if nobody's eatin em?

Now for a reality check. Chris....there's NO turning back! Spots ARE in there. Redeyes are STILL there. It really doesn't matter a hoot what Oroville "used" to be like. We have to deal with what we've got NOW. And, what IS it that we've got?

We've got a lake full of tiny bait fish supporting a lake full of stunted spotted bass. If this was somebody's bass pond, he'd just drain the damn thing. Kill em ALL and start over...only with NO spots or redeyes! Since DFG can't even do that with little Davis Lake, how could they accomplish that at Oroville? NOT!

I agree with several others that the problem is multi-faceted and there is really no ONE cure. But, I also believe that there are a couple simple things that could be done to make a substantial improvement.

1) Bring back the threadfin shad. Sure, they might have to be re-stocked every few years due to die-offs, but if DFG can dump in hundreds of thousands salmon each year, why can't they do that with shad?

2) Modify the slot limit: Let meat hunters keep an UNLIMITED number of bass BELOW 12" and three between 12-14 inches. All fish over 14" MUST be released. We NEED a LOT more predation on those stunted fish or we'll never see growth.

These intent of two changes is simple. Break the stunting cycle! How? By increasing predation on small fish and increasing the growth opportunities for larger fish. The "good ol days" are history. The issue now is what to do with the "new" Oroville bass fishery.

One more thing, I'd rather catch a 7 pound spot any day than a 10 pound black. Big spots are great sport fish. They pull hard and long. I don't share your disdain for these fish.

Respectfully,

.....NaCl

[B.Cline]

I am not sure if you are addressing me or not Nacl. If you look at some of my other posts in this thread, I am in total agreement with you that the answer is in the food source and protecting the larger fish. I do not think we can go back to the way things were.
My statement about the 12 to 15 # limits of smallmouth were to gt5bass saying he is able to catch these now???

[NaCl]

Not addressing anyone in particular. I am guilty of being someone who often longs for the "good ol days". Back when "my water" was settled by two guys behind the dumpster. Or, when BASS was truly a grass roots organization. But, times change and some things are lost to change.

At Oroville, the changes include living with a dominant spotted bass population. The smallies and largemouth will not recover in that fishery during my life. So, my comments seek to encourage folks to let go of the past and turn lemons into lemonade. Imagine going to Oroville for an 18# limit of spots! Wouldn't it be awesome if Oroville kicked out the next world record spot?! How would you like to plan for a fishing trip at O'ville and include a "must have" set of ten inch swimbaits for kicker fish! These are not empty dreams. These things can be achieved and in a reasonably short time span.

So, nothing personal my friend. If anyone longs too much for the "good ol' days". its ME!!

.....NaCl

[mark poulson]

to clean out undersize spots, like they do with stripers at Mead.

[Fish Chris]

I have to agree with you on most of this post Dean.

.......but I still dream of some sort of biological or chemical, Spotted / Redeye Bass eradication method.

Oh, and yes, I might trade one of my 10 lb Largemouths for a 7 lb Spot too (but I'd feel better about it if the lake it came from "never had".... or "still had" a good population of Florida Strains

BTW Dean, have you ever caught a 7 lb Spot ?

Peace,
Fish

PS, If not a giant Florida strain, I'd rather catch a 7 lb Smallie Beautiful, strong, and never seem to adversely affect a Largemouth fishery.

[NaCl]

I've caught two on Folsom that were over 6. These fish were awesome fighters. Every time I thought they were ready to quit, they'd make another long run. I can only imagine what a 7+ would be like! I've also caught smallies over 5 pounds, one at Shasta back in the 80's and two at Folsom about the same time. They were also outstanding fighters. I have the greatest respect for both big smalies and big spots. The problem here is management, not spotted bass. I wish DFG would do a better job of managing fisheries with spots to diminish the stunting. Oroville and Millerton are particularly good examples of too many spots and with good management, who knows, these lakes might be able to produce new world record spots. I know, I know...you probably think I still believe in Santa Claus!

.....NaCl

[ken]

to put this thread in the archives? whew!! Maybe it's just me and it's time to open the presents. Ken

[Colebass]

I think it's been up plenty. When I look at the threads, it takes up space and time, I think we've all got the poll.

Thanks in advance

Dave

[gt5bass]

they made a decision to move the slot up 15-17" and allowing on one over to be kept.

Heard it today at the local tackle shop...reliable source...but I wouldn't swear by it.

[randall354]

I wrote an email to DFG and asked what was going on with the slot limit and this was the reply.

Department personnel met with interested anglers from the Lake Oroville area last fall to discuss opportunities for changing the existing slot limit regulation. This is a regulation change year and the public has until the end of August to submit suggestions for new or changes to existing regulations including the Lake Oroville black bass slot limit regulation. The public review process will continue through the fall until new or changes to regulations are accepted by the Fish and Game Commission at their December 2006 meeting. Those changes will go into effect March 1, 2007.

At this point I am unaware of any preferred recommendation and the present regulations will remain in effect until March 1, 2007.

Dennis P. Lee, Supervising Biologist
Fisheries Programs Branch
California Department of Fish and Game
1701 Nimbus Road, Suite C
Rancho Cordova, CA 95670
Field Station (916) 358-2833
FAX (916) 358-2857
Cellular (916) 952-6915
dlee@dfg.ca.gov

I wrote a reply asking if the slot for BLACK BASS included spotted bass. I have not received a reply yet.
Randy

[NaCl]

Randy,

The term "black bass" includes largemouth, spotted and small mouth bass as well as a few lesser know bass like the redeye bass.

.....NaCl