An open question for Team Anglers and Directors

bigbass111 · Post by **bigbass111** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:13 am

There are few competitive clubs with a large amount of boats, why? People get tired of the same people winning every tournament. I know first hand my club got to the point were when I showed up it was like a punch to the chest for them. Not that I'm a jerk or am hated but I won 18 of 24 and got 2nd and 3rd in the other six. The winning's every month would cover my half in entries to WON and ABA team event's. Should I have been allowed to basically steal this money? not sure! So I started to feel bad and stopped showing up to the events.......
When I moved out here to Florida I joined a club to meet some local anglers and to find out about the area. They asked me if I was a Pro or if I was a guide and I explained to them why I was joining. Seven tournamnets in I had won 5 and got second in two others. The club then started in with the pay him to not show we know he's going to win blah, blah, blah (joking with me). But to me I knew some guys ment it deep down. So now I just go to the meeting's and fish with the guy's as a non-boater just to keep it fair and fun for them. Doesn't that sound STUPID!!!! But it's the truth, I think you can get to good for some trail's and you should really learn to just fish more expierenced events.
You would be surprised to see how many people would fish if there were no ringers in the event. I am like alot of you guy's wanting to fish against big stick's to make yourself better. But if there was an event that had a great payout and restrictions to who fished, alot of anglers would come out off the woods. Because there are alot of anglers who want to know they have a equal chance of winning every time. And not a worry in the world about 10 guys in the event that fish for a living and always make the cut.

There are more follower's then leaders....

Hollywood · Post by **Hollywood** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:18 am

nobody should worry about whos fishing and whos not. If your worrying about that your not concentrating on the job at hand and that is catching the fish. Even the "pros" still have to catch them.

your out to beat the fish not specific anglers...

Noluk · Post by **Noluk** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:21 am

Interesting topic...
For those who don't know, I was a director for Angler's Choice on Diamond Valley. The local favorites and the touring pro's are great to have at a championship. Each orginization publishes rules for their trails and if a tour level pro or anyone else qualifies for the championship under those rules they should be allowed to fish.

I was a big fan of the concept of neutral water for TOC's but that is a difficult concept as well. I am personally in favor of off-limits prior to TOC's as well but that is another 50 page pot that doesn't need to be stirred.

What is relevant is that we in the west do not have a BFL level of competition or even BASS weekend series. What we do have is lots of team circuits and a few pro-ams that try to work out scheduling to avoid conflicts. This is to help turnouts etc. To be honest, if we had a BFL level of events out here, I think we would see less journeymen level pro's on the team circuits because these events would preclude them from having enough time to qualify for a TOC in a team circuit.

Brian Linehan · Post by **Brian Linehan** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:24 am

Out West, I think that a "Pro" is anyone who coughs the money up. It's not about sponsors, etc. Any "Barney" can buy some shirts, wrap their boat, and call himself a "Pro." Lets face it, many are like that.

However, big congrats to a couple of real Pro's, Mike and Shaun.

some guy · Post by **some guy** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:25 am

If some one is worried about who is fishing an event....they already lost.

Fish against the fish, not the people.

It's not like the pro's are down there telling the fish not to hit your bait..if you dont want to do your homework...dont compete.

fishinman · Post by **fishinman** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:31 am

No is my answer. Define pro ,its short for professional! Some one who is a representative of or makes a living as being part of an industry full time. BUUTTT in our case personaly I think any one who earns more than or has earned more than $20,000 dollars in prize money in a single season should be consideredd a PRO. A team can walk away with a much as $20,000 or more depending upon how many events or circuts they fish. If they make $40,000 as a team they are both considered pros atleast in my head. Look at some of the teams in the past few years (quite impressive). I think It's more of how you see yourself as a pro ( do you like taking candy from a baby, are you a bully? well are ya!! I don't think any 1 team has ever earned $40,000 smackers in a season. Just imagine though take 2 hot sticks (proS as I've defined them) fishing 2 or 3 team circuts together $40,000 is a realitic number.

Jimmy Walker · Post by **Jimmy Walker** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:47 am

Hi Rick. I hope you're well. Over the past twenty years, I've fished everything from club and teams to the top level pro circuits. I remember fishing many of your top six club tournaments and most of the time (at least at Havasu) the local club won the boat. As far as I'm concerned the "local" advantage far outweighs the "Pro" advantage. Although I'm not exactly the same caliber of fisherman as some of the top level pros mentioned above, I have had my share of success. Fishing the pro events leaves me less time to fish around San Diego. At times, I've found it more difficult to cash a check in a team tournament at San Vicente than on the FLW Series. No so called pro has any advantage on the weekend guys around here.

jimmy

some guy · Post by **some guy** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:06 am

i agree jimmy...if your on fish sign up...if your not...why are you donating and crying about it?

MikeL · Post by **MikeL** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:12 am

I agree with Art Berry, it is hard at the team level (weekend warrior) to take time off work, drive long distance pay the gas and lodging money just to get pounded by a pro, or pros who had weeks, or months to find the fish and pattern them.
But something Jimmy Walker said is even worse "the local advantage" I have never understood why I had to drive long distance for a fish-off say Lake Mead and the local Mead boys did'nt have to drive to Clear Lake.

ML

buddy brown · Post by **buddy brown** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:17 am

Hollywood wrote:nobody should worry about whos fishing and whos not. If your worrying about that your not concentrating on the job at hand and that is catching the fish. Even the "pros" still have to catch them.

your out to beat the fish not specific anglers...

Rack em. That about sums it up right there..

Terry · Post by **Terry** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:45 am

Well, Boys, it just seems that if you stay in one place and dominate as a local, you are the proverbial big fish in a small pond. If you want to compete at the local level, you get the local prize. Jimmy W., Strelic, Salewski, Long, Kerr, Gabe, Art, etc all moved on from San Diego and have done well against the Bigger Boys... so they get the bigger prize. BUT they started locally, kicked our butts, moved up and had to pay to play. Many of us locals JUST AREN'T GOOD ENOUGH to beat them. This ain't T-ball, where everyone's a winner. There are many guys and girls at various stages of their fishing "careers" and only they can make the decision on who they want to fish against. If you don't want the competition, stay out of the circuit. If they qualify they should fish.

For a team championship format I don't care what anglers I fish against. If I end up beating some big names (I just know that will happen someday) I get not only the bucks but more important the rep/street cred/props/kudos, which in the big scheme of things is why we "small fish" play the game. If a person wants to go pro, they want good competition along the way so they can learn and see how they rate. It's few people that just walk on and make a pro sports team, and it's few that walk on and become a bass pro in the true sense. It's like Nextel Cup drivers competing in the Busch Series; the young guns coming up need to see what the competition is like and it fuels the desire to succeed. Cherry-picking? Maybe, but I want to compete against them anyway. You never know...

I pays my money and takes my chances.

My .02, likely worth less.

Terry (Microfish)

some guy · Post by **some guy** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:09 am

i cant wait to hear whats next....locals who fish a lake 3 times a week are going to be banned too..

what a joke.

I think we need to start a circuit where everyone is a winner and they hand out cake and ice cream afterwards..maybe raffle off a bunch of prizes.

What happened to everyone's spirit of competition..there's nothingi enjoy more then taking my angling skills to another level...suck it up people.

EP · Post by EP » Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:29 am

Sounds like Rick is looking for semi- pro division or future pro division. New fisherman to the sport in So Cal. New fisherman need new boats.
Congrats to Mike and Shaun!

NBW is a Pro Team Circuit.

DeltaBound · Post by **DeltaBound** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 12:24 pm

nobody should worry about whos fishing and whos not. If your worrying about that your not concentrating on the job at hand and that is catching the fish. Even the "pros" still have to catch them.

your out to beat the fish not specific anglers...

Even the pros have to catch them, your right. However, it's not all about the so called pros ability, it's about information, anyone can catch fish, yes ANYONE. But not everyone on the street knows information about how the bite is at DVL or Castaic or wherever, Pros network information with each other, Pros have access to the latest information and the NEW SECRET BAITS. Do you really think that's fair

?

Mark Taylor · Post by **Mark Taylor** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 12:27 pm

Another couple things to think about is how it is becoming too easy to qualify for a TOC. With so many regions and ways of qualifying the touring pros can squeeze in a tournament here and there to qualify. Gone are the days when if you qualified you really accomplished something, especially considering the way the tournament schedules used to be...A variety of lakes that really tested the fisherman and the travel brought the weekend anglers together and brought about much more comradarie. Now on any given Saturday you can go to your home lake, whatever it may be and fish a tournament. How many tournaments in one year are at Castaic or DVL? Entire regions devoted to only one lake. How is that a region? Instead of traveling to qualify for a curcuit, a pro can fish 1 lake and qualify. If the tournament schedules were more diverse these pros would not be able to commit to the team level.It also goes back to the no off-limits rule. Why would a weekend fisherman want to enter when a pro, whos only job is to fish, spends the entire week on the lake prior to the tournament??? I want to fish against the best, but when the best have this advantage over a working man that fishes on the weekends, it is easy to see why attendance is down. The lake where the fish off is held also makes a big difference in attendance. Why would a so-cal team that fishes the entire year at Castaic want to go to Havasu and fish against the teams that qualified by fishing Havasu all year. And for a boat. There should be a line drawn someway especially considering that the dollars that all the pro's sponsers, tournament orginizations, and the entire fishing industry are fighting for are that of the weekend angler, which outnumber the pro angler 1000-1. Some of my statements kind of get off track but I guess there are more problems with team tournaments than we think.
Mark Taylor

some guy · Post by **some guy** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 12:44 pm

Its very simple for me...hopefully it rubs off on a few people.

If you dont like a format..dont fish it. We have a million circuits, pick one that best suits your ability to fish and find fish.

When you sign up for a "pro" team division, you should know what your getting into. If your not competitive and cant compete with these guys..move along..alot of us can and will.

MARK- i couldnt agree more about the TOC's. Take wonbass for instance..the fish off in havasu every year. Im all for a nuetral lake, but good luck getting everyone to agree on what a "nuetral lake" is.

I have no problem fishing againt "pros" and "so-called pros". Bring em on.

Ray L. · Post by **Ray L.** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 12:44 pm

As far as going to Havasu to fish a finals I for 1 love it. I would much rather go there than Mead for a finals. Try and find a lake that does not have a region on it. That is tough to do. Heck look at the Mc Abees. They dominate Clear Lake and are not from there. I think home field advantage is way over rated in fishing. You are not fishing against the fishermen you are fishing against the fish.
This is very interesting read but for me I don't care if I fish against Long and Kerr in S.D. or Grover and Grover at D.V.L., Brakebill and Rodino at Casitas, or so and so at a golf course pond. Fishing against those guys raises my intencity level and it brings out the best in a lot of teams. I think this is a great subject to talk about and I also think maybe there might be room for a semi pro circuit. Heck Puddingstone and Irvine are available for permits.

If another circuit comes out for a semi pro or rookie teams great just more events on small lakes that are pounded daily not just on weekends.
Right now Castaic is getting pounded by guys from all over the state. The Cal. Bass Federation finals are there this weekend.
Heck for those of you looking for something different maybe you should try the Fed. Oh what am I saying, I have many guys who fish tour level events fish that also. The guys in my region don't wine when Charlie Weyer or Jerry B., or even Ron C. fish my events. Heck I have guides also fish my stuff and nobody complains. Heck they welcome it and look forward to fish against them. I also get my share of cherry pickers also. Guys that only fish 1 lake but are very dominant on that lake.
I guess I have a different view than many but heck that makes the world go around.
I am done now and look forward to read on about this subject.

bigbass111 · Post by **bigbass111** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 12:53 pm

I think this has gotten pulled out of the text. I believe Rick's question was geared towards "PRO's" not local PRO's. Guy's that only fish for a living, not guys that work and fish.

Some full time PRO's qualify for a Championship without even fishing a qualifier. That's because tournament venus allow solo anglers in the events. Then when the solo angler makes it to the classic and WOW he's now got a RINGER as a partner that know's that lake and or might be a local. Not to mention he is a PRO and will be pre-fishing while your at work. This is where Team tournaments get abused, so there should be more rules regulating this. Like you can only fish solo once and you cannot substatute a partner ever.

Besides Classic events should be miles away from any qualifying event fished. (NO ONE SHOULD HAVE AN ADVANTAGE) Lake Mead, Havasu and Clear lake are awesome for a classic but when there are qualifiing events on that lake thats a HUGE advantage and is biased cheating.

But I guarentee you if you move it from Havasu, etc, etc the local's will bitch that they have to drive now, isn't that a shame..... SEND EVERYONE TO New Mexico or Texas and if they cant afford it ohh well, it will now be fair and no one will have an advantage. You would probably get more people for it then against it, because it is now a level playing field.

Or do it like the old BASSMASTER CLASSICS dont tell anyone until the day before pre-fish starts. Then people can scramble to get there and find some fish......... FAIR!!!!

Rick G · Post by **Rick G** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 12:59 pm

Well Mike has hit on a few issues and let me be more specific. First off thanks for all the input on this hot topic. My original point of this whole topic was about GROWING THE SPORT. It means keeping the existing customer base happy and getting more folks involved. In So. Cal. we have seen a decline in attendance in the Team events. Lots of reasons, economy, price, too many permits, take your choice. The River circuits have had really good growth thanks to the hard work of folks like Vern, and the Petersons and the fact that they are really out there promoting their product. So how do we grow our sport and make all the parties involved happy.
1- Lower the entry fee's in the local Team events to entice the "Average Joe" to get involved. Some are up to $315.00-$335.00 with 7 events on 1 lake.
2-One of these Org's needs to start a Pro Team Trail. These events would have a higher entry fee and the Guys that have stepped up to the next level can all slug it out for bigger $. Have a $350.00 basic entry fee plus options. Use the existing permits[not more] that are out there to have these events. Your still fishing with your buddy and if the "Average Joe's" want to step up and battle the Brakebill's and Baileys and Long/Kerr can pony up the entry and go for it.
3- You can still have 1 fishoff with all the Pro Team guys and the "Average Joe's" in the same event. But they are fishing for different divisions in the same Tournament. This makes for say Won Bass only have to hold 1 fishoff to man and operate. Give a boat still to the Pro Teamers and one also to the "Joe's". If at the sign up a "Joe" wants to step up and fish against the Pro's do it but you are out of the "Joe's Division. Can you imagine the Smack if the winning Team of "Joe's" out weighed the Pro's. Excitement is what we need in the sport.
4-This format should keep everyone happy. With more Pro/Ams out there maybe there is enough to go around. But we do need to get away in So. Cal from the "same ol thing" and the Team Organizations need to look to the future. If I stepped on any Toes in asking this question, sorry. Just looking to make things better. My .02 Rick G.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 1:08 pm

Hey Rick - awesome Idea. I can only offer one alternative.

Rather than add a higher stakes trail... why not add a lower stakes trail instead and call it "Semi-Pro" Average Joe's is a less attractive name.

Funny we have exactly that up here in Northern Cal. 100% has it split up. Not sure how their TOC works but, I know they have 2 separate divsions to fish regular events.

Angler's Choice has 3 separate Semi Pro trails. Lower entry fee's $120 basic entry. Same type of payback percentage wise and they have their own TOC with a boat for the winner. There are rules on who can fish these events and who can't and overall its a great way to make an entry into the sport. I tried to add a 4th division to this trail for southern cal that would be offered entries into the Semi-Pro TOC just like the northern guys... and on the first event we had 3 boats!! I do think the sport is ready for this now and with the right involvement with guys like yourself Rick and your staff - this could work out well.

Would you think a Semi-Pro DVL trail would work? Or would it need to be on a less stringent lake like Castaic/Casitas/Perris etc.. (meaning boat restrictions)?

jay wright · Post by **jay wright** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 1:11 pm

I told myself several months ago that replying to one Rick's "no drama" posts was not a good idea but here's my take: yes of course guys who have the Ball's to fish full time should be allowed to fish TOC's. Fishing against the best possible field lets you know what is possible on a given day. If there are a lot of question marks in your head or in your post, then you shouldnt fish competetively. I am grateful for every tournament that I get to fish because catch em or not, somebody shows me what was possible that day on that water and it becomes a learning experience. I do this because someday I hope to be one of the guys who shows others what is possible.

JW

ps: Thank you Mike & Shawn for showing us what was possible last weekend at Havasu and congrat's.

Ray L. · Post by **Ray L.** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 1:14 pm

Hey Jay how was Castaic. Good to see you on the water on Sunday. Did you and Cory have fun?

Rick G · Post by **Rick G** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 1:26 pm

Tom are you talking about "Semi Pro Teams" or Pro/ams because the reason Team events are so popular is guys just like fishing with their Buddies/Kids/Wives ect. Rick G.

Robert F · Post by **Robert F** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 1:33 pm

In concept lowering the entry fees is a great idea but look at the so-called entry level "Sunday" tournaments here in San Diego. Same old teams just taking kids money along with the usual donaters. Maybe if the payback was too low for the "pros" to be interested? Tried and didn't work. If a top team is going to be on the water practicing for the upcoming event they might as well go pay that little entry and collect that little check the week before the bigger tournament. Why go out of town? There is plenty of easier money here. If the fishing industry would help these guys only with out of town events maybe they would be too busy to fish these events. Do not give them money to fish local events. How much money has Skeeter given John Kerr this year to fish low level events? How much has Anglers Marine given their Prostaff to fish local events? Why would Mike Long want to spend all that money to go to Columbia when he can work his regular job during the week and supplement with local wins on his day off? Maybe Anglers should consider developing their minor leagues instead of putting all their efforts in the bigs? Or give their big league anglers money to fish the big leagues. There was a boat dealer in Washington that paid his prostaff entries in to the Columbia river event. I actually have a great time fishing and talking to John and Mike at the tournaments that I fish against them. I just dont get in any options when I know I am already beat before I get the boat launched.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 1:34 pm

I am talking about Semi-Pro Teams.

Check out AnglersChoice.com and look under Semi Pro

There is a whole circuit up here just for guys who have made less than $2000 (I think that is the number) in a single year.

It's a great way to get introduced to the sport without having to fish against the big boys!

Last year the winners of the boat won it from an aluminum 50 Hp boat!! That was very cool to see!

Tom

jay wright · Post by **jay wright** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 1:44 pm

Hey Ray,

I sent you a pm because it looks like this has become a business proposition. You cant stop progress!

JW

tunaman · Post by **tunaman** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 2:11 pm

Hey Rick - sign me up for your minor-league team!!!

Roger

Ray L. · Post by **Ray L.** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 2:20 pm

Hey Jay you may want to re send your p.m.

jay wright · Post by **jay wright** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 2:43 pm

Ray

Check your pm

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 3:50 pm

I just spoke to Rick via Phone about this.. and let me assure you he is not taking a pot shot at Rooke and Bailey with this thread.

Rick like many of us are eager to see this sport continue its growth amungst the masses and he sees a problem bringing new people into the tournament world. Truth is, he's right on.

For the average guy stepping up and fishing against the likes of Rooke, Bailey, Art Berry, Brakebill, Siemantel, Hart, Mike Long, John Kerr and even his own son Kyle is asking a lot for a new tournament angler. Sure there are guys like some of us (especially me) with egos their abilities can't live up to - that will do that. However, for the betterment (is that a word?) of our sport there really needs to be an entry level tournament series. Luckily up here in Northern Cal there are already 3 different options for that with A.C. Semi-Pro, Future Pro and 100% Rookie League. There really is a need for that in Southern Cal. I can think of about 10 guys off the top of my head that would be interested in that from day 1 - and that's just guys I know! These same teams could still fish the regular trails when they see fit to test their skills against the best but, this would give them all a chance to break into the tournament seen without feeling like a donator each and every time out. Let's face it... winning money in bass fishing is tough, and or a newby its damn near impossible.

My own personal experience has shown me that it is damn near impossible. It took me more than 3 years before I won a tournament and I have been full tilt bass fishing for 3 years. I even took a GIANT cut in pay to allow me more free time to fish and better myself as an angler. I am sure I have been putting more time and effort into fishing than almost anyone not on one of the Tours and even as much as some of those guys. I couldn't imagine how long it might have taken me to win a tournament had I done it as a hobby or in my spare time away from a regular 8 to 5 job.

As for the Business Proposition someone referred to
As for this turning into a business proposition - I think you aren't seeing it correctly. Rick is not trying to make a business of this. He has a business already and I am sure he is very happy with it as he is the #1 Ranger dealer in the world and that's not all he sells!! On the other hand, Rick is very involved with growing our sport and that in turn will help his business. It's more than just a business thing... its a love for bass fishing thing and I get where Rick is coming from and I think he has a good idea here for someone to run with.

Rooke and Bailey
Back to Rooke and Bailey - I think they SHOULD fish every event they can on Havasu - they put in the time and changed their lifestyles to have the time and energy to devote to this sport. They paid the price to allow them to become the leaders and as long as its within the rules they should win all they can. They've earned that right! There are many guys out here that have the ability to do exactly as they do but, they don't have the mindset to want to do it the way Shaun and Mike have done it - for whatever reason.. and there are many reasons - family, financial stability, living situations and more. I know for a fact that Mike Rooke took some major risks moving to Havasu and trying to become a better fisherman... risks not only for himself but, for his family. It is great to see it paying off for him (and for Shaun)! I am just greatful that they were at the Columbia River along with Mike Goodwin for the AC TOC.. or we would have dropped from 17th to 19th in a heartbeat!!! So Kudo's to Rooke and Bailey for their plan coming together... and Congratulations on their win.

Schneider Fishing · Post by **Schneider Fishing** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 4:31 pm

But not a simple answer Rick.

To start with; as far a pros fishing tem TOC's; at this point it's a no brainier because there are no restrictions. What we currently have is a PRO-TEAM format with a few of us weekend warrior anglers trying our luck. If you think it's anything else you're kidding yourself. Is there another option. Not really.

Now who do some of you guys think your kidding? Get real.

Let me first tell you what I think a true weekend warrior is. Someone who, for the most part, only fishes on the weekend and holidays. With maybe two weeks of vacation form their job, that they might be able to convince the family to let them use a few of the days to go fish a TOC instead of spending that time and money on a family vacation.

Whatâ€™s a Pro? Out here, itâ€™s anybody with the money to enter the pro side of an event. I would also include guides as there are getting paid to fish or at the very least getting paid to teach other people how to fish.

Am I tired of donating my hard earned money to the same teams over and over again? Hell yes. Do I have another option? Not really if I want to fish tournaments.

Like someone said in an earlier post. If you are have a low entry fee tournament without restrictions the pro guys will show up anyways and think of it as pre-fishing with the advantage of maybe making a little money at the same time. I have also seen the bigger name pros do this with the WON Bass Pro/Ams. There was WON Bass event just prior to an FLW event at Havasu a few years back. That one drew a number of the FLW boys who were going to be in town for the FLW the following weekend.

As far as clubs go.....
Well let me tell you about my experiences with clubs. I tried out two clubs here in the Inland Empire Area. The first one I went to 4 meetings and fished 2 events. All the meetings turned into a bunch of guys getting drunk and cursing at each other. The tournament was filled with guys complaining about how so and so always won. Not what I wanted to bring my son to. The 2nd club had their meetings 45 miles away and on the same night as my sons scout meetings. It was just too much of a drive and on the wrong night. There's a 3rd club out here but my understanding is that in order to join that club you must also live in the Association where the club is located. I don't live there, so it's not an option. Besides with clubs you can't just show up and fish. You must also go to meetings.

I don't show up to tournaments thinking I can win. I try to be competitive. I'm a realist. I haven't been fishing that long. I don't have a mentor teaching me. I can't get out to practice anytime other than weekends. I don't have a network of people sharing information with me. My partners haven't owned boats so they fish even less than I do.

Get real guys.
Just getting online and telling folks that if they want to do better all they need to do is to get off their butts and go practice is much easier said than done for those of us true weekend warriors. It's a cheap shot. If it was really that easy I think there would be a lot more of us weekend warriors kicking butt.

Itâ€™s also not just about practice. Some of you folks are in the fishing industry so your literally spending hours each day speaking and thinking and analyzing about fishing. There is a good part of this sport that involves mental decision making and a lot of that ability, while also coming from time on the water, also comes form talking things out with fellow anglers and such.

I would have liked to of fished in a semi-pro team division when I was first starting out. Heck I might still fish it if I meet the requirements. I like the idea of a Semi-pro team with restrictions for the entrants. The $2000 in last yearâ€™s winnings seems a good idea. Itâ€™ll also let the guys who take it up a notch the following year and not do so well to come back to the semi-pro league the year after that if they decide to. Is there enough interest in a semi-pro division? I would like to think that with the right marketing it would be a success. Will it be great the first year? Doubtful. Itâ€™ll take at least a year to grow in my opinion. Itâ€™s going to take marketing and the support of the local tackle shops to get word out to be successful.

Pred · Post by **Pred** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 4:38 pm

mike rooke wrote:Please define a pro.

First there are two meanings to PRO. The one that is often confused is PROMOTIONAL STAFF. People confuse this as PROFESSIONAL staff. Its untrue.

When Rick said PRO. I thought the second definition, professional angler. Or a person that makes their living from angling.

I do not think professionals should be allowed to fish unless they have qualified the same way everyone else did. I do think they should be allowed if they fish like everyone else does.
Thats a good reason to make a certain number of events that must be fished to fish in the classic

DougH · Post by **DougH** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:10 pm

Now that all you pros and "concerned fishermen" have spoken, I thought you might like to heart from a "Weekend guy" who hasn't ever fished a this lake.

I have fished in lots of tourneys and beaten the Baileys, and the Martins etc. now and then. They don't win every time they launch the boat. If I stumble on a couple kickers, then guess what, I win!

Sure Shaun has an advantage at Havasu, cuz he MOVED there!

And when I kick all you stinkin pro's a$$e$ next week, you will then know my name. I know what's coming, and bring it on. When those fish see my homemade jigs and start fighting for them, my day will have arrived, and then I'll go back to work on Monday...

If I win, and the "big boys" aren't fishing, then have I really accomplished anything???? uhhh, not really.

Ron T. · Post by **Ron T.** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:28 pm

Schnider , dude you just described my life style to the T. I am married , have two boys involved in sports and school activities and self employed . I very rarly get out on weekdays . I started bass fishing aprox. 7 or 8 years ago . Matter of fact my first boat was bought from Rick . Champion Fish and Ski . Since than I moved up to a Champ 196. Like your self I have a very limited network of info . Like anything in life I have found the the harder you work the greater the pay back . Im not by any means a Mike Hart , Shaun Baily , Bill Siemental , or any of these local hot sticks mentoined but I know in my mind that I can hold my own against any one of them . Why ? Becouse I dont beat my self before I get started . Not to mention the fact that I have in the past . Including a second place boat at Clear Lake . (braging a little ) Yes , these guys can be beat and any one of you out there can do it . Rob , give it time , it will happen for you . Stop loosing tournaments before you get to the lake . Your mind set is whats bringing you down . Positive thoughts will bring positive results . Unless you change the way you do things the results will always be the same .

John Barron · Post by **John Barron** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 6:51 pm

John Barron · Post by **John Barron** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 6:52 pm

Should these guys be able to fish the fish offs? As long as it's an open circuit with no restrictions they paid their money and earned a spot. I have no problems fishing against anyone of those guys and have. I think the biggest grin I had was when I beat Rick Butler (was probably one of the best fishermen around) at a "Super Team" at Don Pedro. Is it fair to the team that struggles to make the fish off? Maybe, maybe not but where is the incentive to get better if the level of competition is not there?

Rick, I don't want to highjack your post so I will start a different thread. I will say this though we are at a saturation point and if things don't change the sport will die at least here it will. If you don't believe that look at the participation and remember there are only 4 weekends a month and 5 circuits fighting for your business (another reason for starting Top Stick). AND there are maybe 300 tournament anglers in SoCal. I do have much more to say about this and a possible solution but another thread.

John Barron

Schneider Fishing · Post by **Schneider Fishing** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:11 pm

Ron T.
You're entitled you your opinion that I've already lost because I don't pump myself up for the win. (This wasn't supposed to be about me personally). I don't see that as the case or actually as a problem. I go out each time and fish hard and try to have fun. I never quit early, etc, etc. If God wants me to win a tournament it will happen. I try to take care of the things that I can control and leave the rest up to God. Doesn't mean I have self defeated myself. I actually have a couple of wins under my belt not that it matters to this discussion. It's nice that you have the resources to go up to Clear Lake for a TOC. I don't think that most of us weekend warriors have those kind of resources. Being self-employed I think helps a lot. Gives you more freedom to practice and network with people. I have often thought about becoming self-employed so that I could spend more time fishing. It's just not in the cards for my and my family. Heck I can't even get the time off to fish the US Open as a AAA let alone get the time off to practice for one. (As I've mentioned a few times, with my job there is a set calendar. No choice in vacation days off.) By the way, congrats on the boat at Clear Lake.

I didn't catch your last name and I was also wondering who your partners have been. Have you been lucky enough to have had some mentors helping you along the way? People who have helped you out may have also contributed to your quick success. Not that I'm saying there is anything wrong with that. Don't take it that way. And I don't wish to take anything away from your hard work.

I thought we were talking about how to reach the regular 5 days a week, 8 hours a day guy with only a couple weeks of vacation time. How do we get them and keep them involved? How many guys have come out for one or two seasons and seen the same people in the top 5-10 each event and have decided 'screw it, I'm outa here.'

I don't have any against any of the guys wining money. But the question was how do we get new people involved in the sport? I don't think that the same guys losing money all the time is going to keep them around either. (Throwing good money after bad???)

It's a similar thing at the WON Bass Pro/Ams. and the FLW and the Bass western events, when they had them. Pretty much the same group of guys fishing (and wining). We've got to get more people involved and feeling some degree of success so they will compete in the FLW's and the BASS events. We need a minor league so we can grow the sport AND grow the anglers' as well.

I truly believe that to be successful at just about anything require desire and effort. In this case your desire and effort translate into time on the water, time with people who can teach you something and time practicing what you have learned.

Not everybody has the same amount of time (and money) that they can devote to their passions and hobbies.

I know that if I had the time (and the net work - which takes time to build) I could compete with the these guys as well.

Besides, not everyone considers wining a bunch of money to be the measure of success. Even in fishing.

Hmmm. Which brings me to another thought. Win the TOC or be the AOY. Which is a better measure of success? Rick Clunn or Roland Martin? Thinking about successful bass fisherman, ever notice how many guys fishing have been divorced? hmmmm.

So again, what do we do to build the sport? I think Mike and Rick and (probably George K.) have hit the nail on the head. We need a minor league to build the sport and to build the anglers.

We've got the PRO-TEAMS thing going (maybe too many of them as John and Mike and Bill have said). We need something for those guys (and maybe I'm one of them) who can't, or don't want to, devote the kind of time a resources that it sounds like you have been able to do.

To use another sports analogy; not everyone can be a Major league Ball player but there are pleanty of Rec. Centers out there with stuff for the evening and weekend players to have fun with. If it weren't for all the leagues would the folks making the bats and balls be able to make money? Besides, if my kid is out fishing I know he isn't out doing something else he souldn't be doing instead.

Schneider Fishing · Post by **Schneider Fishing** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:18 pm

John,
I've had some conversations with George K. about how many angler's we have out here (west coast) and what types of tournaments can be supported. You guys should talk. He may have have some actual numbers.

Murph · Post by **Murph** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:31 pm

Tom you should dig up the results of the Lake Mead Classic, when Eddie and Joe won, and you fished with Matt. This is a real good example of the chance, some ordinary Teams have, when going up against the Big Boys.

Schneider Fishing · Post by **Schneider Fishing** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:32 pm

really, really important.
If your married, and you want to be succussful in anything, especially fishing, you've got to have a supportive wife. Somebody has to watch the kids and feed the dog while we're all out fishing. ANd what ever money they let us spend on fishing stuff is stuff they can't spend on something they might want.

Ron T. · Post by **Ron T.** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:48 pm

Rob , to keep the thred on topic I will respond to your post via PM. Iwill say this though , until recently I had one partner . My partner was just a normal Joe such as yourself and I . His Name is Rob Tomlin . We accomplished what what we did do to hard work and expanding on what we learned in previous days . No so called network .

Schneider Fishing · Post by **Schneider Fishing** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:51 pm

There's always that element of chance.
The one big lucky fish. Turning into the right cove at the right time. What about those elements of chance when a team with a good limit breaks down.
Probably why the pro events are fished over multiple days. Helps to elimnate the element of chance.

Are we talking abouthow to grow the sport or are we talking about how everybody has the chance to win. Of course the chance gets better the more you fish (practice) and the better your network (support group).

If we want to talk about the same folks winning money often..... and I don't want to spend the time doing it but it would be interesting to see a spread sheet of all the different teams (and maybe each of the anglers because some of these successful teams kind of mix and match with each other) and how they finished. Number of firsts, seconds, etc.

CN · Post by CN » Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:03 pm

I beleive was intended to get feedback from non tournament fisherman to see if there may be something new to get more involved in the sport.

I sit on the fence all the time as to fish event's or not????

To me circuit's that draw 35 boat's or more at 150.00 buck's each or whatever it may be are PRO event's.Not knowing all the in's and out's I find it very interesting as to how you can quilify for the TOC'S.

I drive to lake's to check out the weighin's and check website's and it allway's the same top team's that win.....to me they are PRO'S.

If they pay and play by the rule's more power to them.....but it is going to be hard to get new guy's involved as it is.

Brian Linehan · Post by **Brian Linehan** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:21 pm

Ouch! my head is starting to hurt with all of the ideas and suggestions. If it were up to me, I'd raise the 100% BASS entry from $300 to $400. Being that I seem to draw the same amount of guys everytime, I don't think I'd lose anyone.

Why not reward the winners and top 5 with larger payouts? I don't believe in lowering the entry fees and paying deeper to the field. Reward the guys who deserve it. I don't know about you, but I think that the last place in the money deserves at least their entry back, not $45.

Personally, it's never bothered me to fish against guys who are fishing the pro circuits. Like somebody else mentioned, I believe the local reams are easily as competitive as the bigger events.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:24 pm

Those results are still posted somewhere.. although Eddie isn't an ordinary guy.. he spends a lot of days on the water!!!! A Lot.. and you aren't exactly an everyday guy either.. Mr. Retired!

Here is a link to those results!
http://www.anglerschoice.com/lakemeadresults.html

Schneider Fishing · Post by **Schneider Fishing** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:25 pm

Brian,
I think you missed the point of the thread. It's not about how to reward those teams that are currently fishing (and doing well). It was about how do we get more guys to participate. You may be correct, if you raise the fee you might get the same number of boats. You might even get a few more boats but I don't think you'll get any new guys who hadn't fished before.

Pete Marino · Post by **Pete Marino** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:49 pm

I think that everyone should be able to fish all team events if they want.
Just like basically everyone can fish the pro stuff if they kick down the dough to do so. Its our decision what we fish.
If someone doesnt think its right for a "pro" to fish a team event then they should just stick to club tournaments and fishing as a non boater.

With as many circuits as we have out here it should be really easy to find a circuit suited for "your" demands.

Join a club and fish club tournaments, fish one or more of the "team" circuits that are available to us here, fish the top stick as a pro, fish the top stick as a nonboater, fish the WON as a pro, fish the WON as a AAA, fish the Stren series as a Pro, fish the Stren series as a nonboater, fish the National Guard series as a pro or fish it as a non boater. If someone says that non of the options suits them, THEN THEY ARENT SUITED FOR TOURNAMENT BASS FISHING!!! Simple as that.
The last thing we need here is another circuit to delute the fields even more.

Robert, Bill tried to put on a "Pro Team" and "SemiPro" team event earlier this summer but you and a couple others sandbagged and left a bad taste in the mouths of at least 3 teams that I know of that would have actually cashed checks for the first time ever. They fished that tournament for the sole reason of competeing against guys that never cashed before and they were let down when they realized sandbaggers took money from them. So that format obviously doesnt work. There would be teams that would try to "Bend" the rules to suit them and there would be teams fishing in divisions they arent meant for. I'm sorry if that sounded rude but its the truth.

Like I said earlier, If a guy cant find a circuit to fish amounst the wide variety of circuits that we are fortunate to have available to us here in So Cal., then maybe they arent meant to be tournament fishing because they are too full of excuses.
Find a circuit that sounds good to you, pay the dough and give it your best shot...most of all stop complaining. We here in So Cal. dont realize how fortunate we are to have so much to choose from.

I'm not trying to stir the pot or ruffle any feathers, we just dont need anymore politics or drama here in So Cal...I think we have enough of it. Just my 2 cents...

Pete

Colebass · Post by **Colebass** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:23 pm

and the best people were not there? That would be like someone winning at DVL and you and Kyle were not there. It would be like winning at Oroville and Dobyns wasn't there. The win would always be a little tainted!

Let them all come!

Brian Linehan · Post by **Brian Linehan** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:23 am

I hear you Robert, but I totally understand the thread. Being a TD for the last year, I've tried my best to attract more teams to my 100% DVL region including going to local clubs and promoting. Other than 1 or 2 great teams, I don't think that it really made a difference. Also, even if we paid 200% back to the fishermen, you are still going to have guys who have a problem with the way you run your org. You probably have a better idea than most since you volunteer your help at a lot of the tournaments, but bass fishermen are tough to please across the board. Someone is going to bitch about something. It's inevitable.

Lets face it, we all have a ton of choices as far as who we decide to support and every org is going to get their market share. If guys are against so called "Pro's" fishing local team events, they should probably stay at the club level until their confidence increases.

It sounds nice and perhaps a little naive to think that there are a ton of fishermen who are "on deck" and ready to step up and fish the team circuits, but don't because of "Pro's." From my experience, there are a lot of reasons why they don't whether it's family obligations, finance, or simply because they're not ready.

To me, it's simple. Whether you are a Pro or just a weekend warrior like 99.9% of us are, fish where the competition is the fiercest and where you get the most "bang for your buck."

Just my dumbass opinion,
Brian

Lance · Post by **Lance** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 2:28 am

Bass fishing is the only sport that I've competed in that doesn't have a recognized classification system. BMX, Golf, all shooting sports, remote controlled race cars, paintball etc. Most sports have rules and guidelines a person has to achieve before moving up to the next class, exept Bass fishing, why?

I competed on the Pepsi Tour for a few years. The handicap was the equalizer, to prevent sandbagging you had to compete for 6 matches, then they averaged your score to determine your handicap. The rules were simple in determining Pro's and Ams. If you took money as a prize, you were a Pro, Ams got merchandise or gift certificates from your local Golf shop.

BMX and Shooting classes included, Grand Master, A, B, C, D, you had to win 3 times in order to move up to the next class. You could file a grievance to be moved back down a class or up, but this was rarely protested. Again, taking 4 matches to determine an average score then you were placed in the appropriate class.

To address a few points that I've seen posted:

--"Define a Pro" this is a loaded question. Its impossible to define a Pro because there is no rating system.

-- Would it bring anglers out of the wood work, yes. Look at the posts from people that just brows this site, even they are chiming in.

--You don't have to add another circuit. Run the "Average Joe's" at the same time as say.... Top Stick. But the "Average Joe" circuit is directly linked to TS. TS is the "Grand Master and A classes" the "Average Joe" is the B, C, D classes. Average Joe's are on the back of the boat, you cannot move up until you show your ready, fields of anglers can easily be put on a grid and averaged to get progress results and evaluated for promotion to the next class. Grand Master and A classifications are not purchased, there earned, therefore they get awarded money, the Average Joe gets Plaques.

-- If you win once or twice in one season you don't have to fish the rest of the season, you automatically advance to the TOC. This would allow some new faces to step up. OR, finishing in the top 4 twice automatically advances you to the TOC. You get the idea.

-- Someone posted " a Pro is someone that gets paid to fish" I don't buy this. This industry doesn't pay anyone, theirs to many people that are willing to take free merchandise and wear a patch for free. As a result you get a bunch of well connected D class guys that think there Pro's. Its become "Its not what you know or what you've done, but who you know". That's the sad truth of it.

-- Can any of these idea's be implemented now? YES, Look at last years results.

-- I'll probably come up with a bunch of other stupid idea's after I post this. Then you'll see that "Modified 3 times" line that people get.

My Congrats go to Shaun Bailey, Mike Rooke and Kyle Grover. Great job guys.

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