Pro-Am Circuit

[twister]

I'm looking to fish another pro-Am. Last year was a joke. I fished a two day Angler's Choice Pro-Am with two nobody Pros with large egos. Three fish the first day and two the second. That costed me about $300. I learned nothing from them. Is there a better Pro-Am circuit out there were I have a less of a chance to get paired up with want-to-be-bass pros or should I just save my money and hire Cooch again? Shouldn't there be prerequisits to be fishing as a pro?

[Hollywood]

Your draws will be what you make of them such is life, big names or no namers. They all have off days. Even the best of them get into a slump now and then.

If you stay positive you will enjoy your time. It's your attitude that will determine how you will come away from it. If it is a bad experience, stay positive and learn something from that!

[Casey]

Hollywood, with all due respect to you I have to disagree with you. I also have fished Pro/ams and have had a couple draws were the "pro" actully knew very little about bass fishing, only cause he had the cash to buy a boat and have the cash to fish from the pointed end. Hell I had one "pro" at our first stop tell me and I quote "my am's don't fish till i have two in the live well"...
Please, I pay my money to fish, not to watch someone else, regardless of experience.
With respect to the other pros I have drawn, most have been outstanding, they were polite, fun, and taught me a lot about bass fishing, but most of all, they were gentelmen.

Just my .02

Casey

[Hollywood]

Casey,

I never said your going to have a perfect outing, but your experience will be what you make out of it. You can turn every bad situation into something else. I am sure you learned something from those two draws. So maybe they shouldn't have been up front but they were. You learned what not to be like right?

Go in positive, stay positive and as long as your not a sore loser you should come out with a positive experience even with "bad" draws.

[JT-Madera]

I would recommend that you hire Cooch no matter what you do about fishing tournaments...You might be surprised by the names of Pro's who hire him to keep their Delta/Clearlake skills up to par...

About drawing two dud's..well that is why it's called a draw..I can say that I have drawn some dud's and some sticks, but I learned from them all..If you feel you didn't get your money's worth then I suggest you didn't keep your mind and eyes open...Maybe the lesson learned was how not to approach a tournament or what technique didn't work that day..EVERY angler can have a bad day and maybe you just drew two guys who both had bad days..it happens...At least you didn't pay $700 to fish the National Guard Series for three days and not get bit...If you look at the final standings for the NG you will see some real sticks who blanked....

The AC and WON BASS Pro-Ams are kind of a starting place for Pro's to get their feet wet, so to speak...as a Am you just took your chance..because you could have just as well drawn Robert Lee or Jimmy Reese....and had a vacuum cleaner fishing in front of you...me thinks you still would have complained...that is not a personal attack..just an observation... I would suggest that you enter the next Pro-Am that comes up as a Pro and see how you do with all the pressure they are under..then return here and let us know your experience...The first couple of tournaments I fished as a Pro were disasters...I kicked myself for days afterward....about all the mistakes I made...When I was waiting for the draw at the next tournament a guy named Don Payne was standing next to me, he noted how I appeared stressed out and told me about the first time he decided to fish as a Pro...it wasn't the story he told but the way he changed to be willing to accept a bad tournament and learn from the mistakes we make and put it aside..The same should hold true for Am's.....Just be thankful for what you have and move on...when you stop learning, you probably need to find something else to do...No one wins all their tournaments or never makes mistakes...it is when you turn a bad lesson into a positive that you win....

JT

[Noluk]

So where do pro's come from? I have fished both sides of it. Do I have the skills to dominate a pro/am circuit on the pro side. Well no I don't. Of course it does take a certain curve to get there as everyone knows. We have to be realistic here. In ANY given pro-am there are going to be about 20% of the folks who will feel they got good draws. Those are the ones getting checks. Now obviously with 20% happy the other 80% are goign to be disappointed if they are basing their evaluation of a pro upon the number and quality of fish caught.

Honestly I wish every am could fish as a pro a few times. There is not a single time as an am I have felt as much pressure to catch a fish or be on fish as I feel when I am on the pro side of the boat. That responsibilty to make decisions that affect both your and your non-boaters results are huge to me. When your pattern falls apart or the bite dies down it is a significant struggle to adapt and make decisions that you feel are goign to benefit the two of you the most.

On the intellectual side, we all know we need more pro's and more co's. Yet we also know that there is only goign to be one angler of the year on any circuit. Newer pro's need to learn. Pro's fishing a circuit may be on water that is not their home water. The point is that measuring your success only by how the weight of the fish at the end of the day is not nessacarily the fairest indication of how the day went. And some days, the pro is going to ahve to swing for the fences. If I am fishing on the Delta in the spring, you can't go out and chase a 12 pound limit. Everyone knows your going to need 20 lds plus a day to have a shot. The pro has to go for that 20 lds. Some days it will mean weighing in with 1 fish for 2 lds. Remember 80% of the field will not get a check. Even if we limit the pro fields to only accomplished pro's who finish in the top 10 then in a year we have 10 pro's and 10 co's fishing a pro am. Our sport is about growth and learning. We need the new pro's who are goign to have to go through ups and downs. We need the new am's to come out anf give it a shot. Don't expect to catch 100 fish per day and win everything you enter. Expect to try your best and maybe learn something new.

I don't realy know what else to say. I fished the Havasu FLW. The last two days I did not catch a fish. I missed a check. In all honesty I fished a perfect tournament with some of the BEST pro's I have ever met. Great sticks and great people. I threw the right baits to the right places and the fish just wouldn't go. Each pro caught 1 fish each day over the last two days. Some days are like that. I certainly don't blame the pro's who did everything they could to make it happen. Sure I wanted to catch a fish and it is hard to watch your name tumble down the leaderboard. But the sheer amount of knowledge I gained in that tournament was worth the price of admission. Work with your pro against the fish and it can be a great time.

(BTW I did see some pro's who had perfected the art of boat positioning so that they could effectively exclude their co-angler from having a shot at decent water. Shame on you. If your a pro who wants to fish a pro-am and hopes their co-angler does NOT catch fish. Quit now. Your not doing this sport any favors. Just how the heck do you go down a row of tules with the nose towards the tules and the back of the boat in open water? I can understand some of the AM frustration but it is a two way street. Ams and pro's need to both work to make it an enjoyable experience.)

[twister]

Guys,

You all are correct to say that every pro or angler has there bad days and in a lower level I experience this too. I feel the pressure to put my back seater onto fish all the time. Lets face it, getting skunked just sucks and it sucks even more if you didn't learn from it. However, after reading all the above comments, I would have to say that my experience is an exception. Both guys, considered to be pro, broke apart during the last three hours before weigh in. In any sport, to be successful, you gots to keep it together . And if make the correct adjustments during that fishing day then you'll have a good shot in the money. My pro's did not make any adjustments.

I've been out with Cooch twice already, and both days were just awesome. I learn alot of locations, techniques, and dynamics of the Delta. Hmmm-two good days with Cooch and two lowsy days with two want to be pros that can't keep their head straight. Again, is there any true pro-am circuit worth fishing as an AM? All I ask is for some prerequisits not just someone who can come up with $$. Its no secret that this is the underlying reason why there are less AM willing to fish with Pros.

[Robchik]

To answer your questions, no. At least no locally. I don't think you can avoid this problem. As far as the regional pro-ams, even the FLW (Stren & NG), there will always be guys with too much money and not enough experience fishing as a boater/pro. It's a risk. Remember aside from BASS Elite and FLW Tour, to my knowledge, the qualifications to fish as a "Pro" is paying the entry and having a boat to fish from.

[Casey]

Hollywood,
I agree with you, I don't expect every outting to be perfect. Hell I'd have to be stupid to think that. Also, I have remained positive and have taken away from each tournament what to do and what not to do as an AM and if and when I ever fish the pro side.
Its often I hear at the "dock talk" from a pro that blames his day on the AM but little is said about that...I've enjoyed every tournament i've fished and learned from each of them. I learn because as you said, I remain postive.

Take care,
Casey

[twister]

Robchick,


I like your aproach from the other posting. I wish my guys would follow it before become a "Pro". For # 1 I like Dan Mathesen's new Delta Club.

http://westernbass.com/dotcom/library/view.html?id=2776

You can definately learn alot with his approach--sucks I don't live in Tracy. I read TBF requires you to be a member of FLW affiliated clubs. To bad there is none in Sacto.



1. Club level fishing (non-boater if at all possible)
- offers exposure to different lakes and exposure to different fishing techniques by fishing with different anglers.
- also provides an education on do's and don'ts as a non-boater.

2. Co-Angler/Am in draw tournaments
- takes your skill set to another level of competition
-a chance to learn from guys who are at the pro level. ALL partners have something for you learn from them. Even if it's what not to do.

3. Team Tournaments
- at either a semi/ future pro level or regular teams level.
- Helps you develop your decision making skills

4. Pro/Boater in draw tournaments.
- Puts all that you have learned to the test.

OR you can "just do it" like Ricky said. Some guys jump right in and never look back, learning on the fly. whatever you decide just remember to be respectful and have fun.

Myself for example I am in steps 1 w/ a bit of 3. 1 b/c Club fishing is really fun and I'm part of a great club.

Good luck dude. When bass fishing is concerned there probably are no bad choices, unless you are thinking unrationally Wink

[Guest]

Twister - Unreal expectations is where you are going wrong. Sure there are some guys that shouldn't be fishing as a pro - Hell I may be one of them.... but, guess what - Except for the BASS and FLW Tour you are always going to have some guys that don't belong on the front of the boat.

For what you want - guaranteed a hot shot pro everyday out then I recommend you just stop fishing tournaments and start taking guide trips and even then there are going to be those days where nothing seems to go right.

Last year at the AC Pro AM on Clear Lake --- I swapped ams with Jimmy Reese --- Now normally an am would be very happy with the Jimmy draw and obviously less happy then that with drawing me. Funny, in the tournament both my ams caught more fish on the day with me than they did the day with Jimmy.... Now granted 99 times out of 100 that won't be the case... but, that's fishing.

For another example - how about last year at the FLW Stren series on Havasu... What do you think eventually champion John Billheimer Jr's Am's thought when they heard they drew a 16 year old kid to fish with? I bet they weren't too fired up about that... but, the kid whacked um.. and except for the Delta rats and those who read about him 6 months prior to that tournament in Bass West --- nobody knew who he was.

So I offer you two solutions

1. As I mentioned before - take a guide trip with whoever you want and hope to whack them.

or

2. Spend the big bucks and fish on the back of the BASS Elite series boats when they come out west this year... However, be careful, some of those guys might struggle as well on our western waters --

My .02

[twister]

TomLeogrande,

I, like many would think the pro has more experience than an AM. They should go through the ranks as mentioned above. Sure there will always be those phenoms that learn fast, but fishing is unlike most sports because more knowledge is required to increase your odds at a good bag. And knowledge only comes with experience in this sport--a lot of trial and error. I don't know what you did different @ Clearlake to beat Reese, but I'm sure you did your homework and that is expected of you. I just don't think some "Pros" do. Please don't get me wrong, my intention is not to bad mouth pros. I just don't like the process on how they get that title. Cause there are alot to be expected from a "Pro" in any sport. An AM just wants to learn, money would just be a bonus.

[Mike T]

Maybe we should consider changing the names of these events. Someone with that creative gene jump in here.
No matter what level you play at there is always someone that will dominate. FLW and Bass included.
You've had some great answers here. Set your goals a little more realistic and go out and do the best you can with what you've got to work with. It's all you can do, ever, and try to enjoy it.
This part of our society bugs me. We all have to blame someone else. Your's truley included. "I" lost a big fish a few weeks ago on a rip bait on a short line. I had to ask my partner twice to get the net.This fish shook her head once and stayed on, second time I wasn't so lucky. I was reaching for the net."I"wasn't consintrating on the fish and what she was doing. I know how to keep a fishes head down, but I was worried about getting the net. I went balistic and told my partner he needed to get that net when I call for it. I didn't look at myself and what I should of done to give us the best shot at landing her.
My point is like everyone elses(I just include examples). I observed from your post that it was someone else fault you did poorley. It sucks, but it's just the way it goes sometimes.
I'm rambling-Good luck next time out.

[nipples]

"Maybe we should consider changing the names of these events. Someone with that creative gene jump in here."


Well instead of calling it a Pro/Am, we could call it what it really is. A Boater/non-boater tournament... or perhaps a "high stakes" tournament. But if it's not called a Pro/Am, then some of the boaters who are looking for validation and false ego inflation will not want to fish it. But then again, you wouldn't have an unrealistic expectation by the AM fisherment to get drawn with a real "Pro" instead of a boat owner. Something to ponder...


Twister,

My recommendation is to fish one or some of the Stren events. You've got at least three chances of getting drawn with a real pro. and the percentage of real pro's to boat owners is alot better. And if the boat owner is not a real pro, chances are real good that the guy is a stick. And if he isn't, then at least he has money to burn and maybe you can go out and party on his dime after the tournament. Anyway you cut it, I would say the stren is going to be the closest tournament to what you are looking for. But they are not exactly cheep to fish as an AM either, but the payout is good if you can hold your own on the flat end.

Good Luck,

-Paul-

[twister]

Mike,

Bad analogy. I can blame a Pro because he's the one running the boat. My only control of the situation is how and where I throw my lure. You can't tell me that a back seater being nosed out is to blame.

Maybe we should consider changing the names of these events. Someone with that creative gene jump in here.
No matter what level you play at there is always someone that will dominate. FLW and Bass included.
You've had some great answers here. Set your goals a little more realistic and go out and do the best you can with what you've got to work with. It's all you can do, ever, and try to enjoy it.
This part of our society bugs me. We all have to blame someone else. Your's truley included. "I" lost a big fish a few weeks ago on a rip bait on a short line. I had to ask my partner twice to get the net.This fish shook her head once and stayed on, second time I wasn't so lucky. I was reaching for the net."I"wasn't consintrating on the fish and what she was doing. I know how to keep a fishes head down, but I was worried about getting the net. I went balistic and told my partner he needed to get that net when I call for it. I didn't look at myself and what I should of done to give us the best shot at landing her.
My point is like everyone elses(I just include examples). I observed from your post that it was someone else fault you did poorley. It sucks, but it's just the way it goes sometimes.
I'm rambling-Good luck next time out.

[Phil]

DO LIKE MOST GUYS/GALS HAVE DONE IN THE PAST, FISH TEAM TOURNAMENTS , SHARPEN YOUR SKILLS, THEN, FISH ALOT OF DRAWS,(MAYBE THEY DON'T HAVE DRAWS LIKE THE OLD DAYS AND THEY SHOULD)... FISH AGAINST THE OTHER GUY IN THE BOAT, LEARN SOME HUMILITY .

WE ALSO THINK THE BEST WAY TO LEARN IS TO FISH FEDERATION TOURNAMENTS, THEN YOU HAVE THE USE OF THE FRONT OF THE BOAT FOR EQUAL TIME NO EXCUSE EXCEPT YOUR OWN BAD JUDGEMENT THEN .

I AM SURE THERE ARE ALOT OF PRO'S THAT HAVE HAD JUST AS BAD EXPERIENCE WITH A AM IN THEIR BOAT KINDA A CATCH 22 IS'NT IT.

SO DON'T SLAM IT UNTIL YOU HAVE TRIED IT. (SPELL CHECK ON ALL THIS AS WE DO NOT SPELL WELL)!!!

[gt5bass]

Remember most of our Western "Pro/AMs" (Such as WON and AC) are really draw team tournaments that pair a boater with a non-boater. I think this is big part of what creates the "Pro" misconception that is so frequently an issue here. In reality, we have very few "true" Pros on the West Coast. No, I am not one of them

The BFL, I think handles its properly for the entry level non-shared weight events, as they refer to "Boaters" and Co-Anglers, not Pros and AMs.

[CATCHEMCARO]

I have had good times and bad times on the back of these boats ran by (PRO'S) I have realized that you must clear the bad thoughts completely out of your head and fish as hard as you possably can behind who ever you get drawn with and make the best of it. I have learned a lot from guys who ran the boat and had nothing going what so ever. I learned not to exspect any thing but a safe ride from the boat owner. Once he drops that trolling motor Im casting and doing what ever it takes to catch fish behind the guy up front.

Its frustrating at time, but if you can get through those tough times behind someone not on fish and find something possitive during the day. Then when you step up and buy the boat and pay the entry fee you will be that much more ahead of the pack. I have decided to go one more year behind the boat owner and I plan on making the most of it. If I can learn from the guy up front then thats just extra knowledge added to what Im going to teach myself
that day on the water.

Rich

[Jimmy Walker]

Twister,

I have read these message boards for years without ever feeling much of a need to repsond. After listening to all your complaints I decided for the first time to create an acount of my own to put in my two cents.

I have fished as a "Pro" on the various Western and occasionally Eastern circuits for about twenty years. I rate my own skills as about average to maybe a little above average. I certainly have never threatened to dominate the circuits, but occasionally do well and have been very close to winning a number of times.

I do think I have a pretty good understanding of what tournament fishing is all about. There are two types of Pro/ams out there. If you are looking for a circuit where the pro wants you to catch fish or your own skills are not that great, you should fish a shared weight format such as WON Bass.

If you are a very good fisherman, you should fish a circuit where you have to catch your own fish like FLW or Stren. If you are a good co-angler on the FLW or Stren circuit and your motivation is to win, you may not want to draw the biggest pros because they are the best at seeing to it that they have the best opportunity to catch fish, not you.

If you are prepared to go fishing, you would probably be better off with "Spanky" who is the pro who is not as adept at making sure he has the best opportunity to put the fish in the boat. That said, I believe I have fished with every type of co-angler out there. Most of them are guys that understand their role. They want to be treated with respect and learn some things from the Pro. They do not view the day on the water as a competition to see if they can outdo their pro.

No pro (or at least very few) who are trying to make their living fishing on the major circuits are going to make it easy for a co-angler to catch fish at the pro's expense. The good co-angler understands that all the cos are in the same situation and if he is a good fisherman, he will catch his fish and do well in the tournament.

Any co-angler who wants to second guess his pros decisions or compete with the pro for fish that the pro is trying to catch for his livelyhood is in it for the wrong reasons and should either pipe down or be out there as a pro himself.

I wonder if you have any idea what it really takes to fish as a pro on a major circuit. After expenses for not only entry fees, but boats, trucks, gear, repairs, and travel it is very difficult to come out in the black at the end of the year. I am sorry if I do not have much sympathy for a co-angler who has nothing better to do than second guess my decisions, or worse, impede my ability to compete.

I certainly do not want to over do it here, because 99 percent of the cos I have fished with have been great guys. They are out there to learn, they do not compete with me for fish (When it's not a shared weight format), and if they happen to do well, that's an added bonus for them.

Good Luck out there!
Jimmy Walker