An open question for Team Anglers and Directors

Rick G · Post by **Rick G** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 6:04 pm

Please before I ask, no drama, and all I am trying to do is see what everyone's feeling's are about this question as it makes NO DIFFERENCE TO ME. Seems like lately the normal weekend Team guys are getting beat pretty regular in the fishoffs by Touring Pro's who seem to be supplementing their income on the local team anglers circuits and fishoff's. Should top pro's be allowed in these event's? Before I get hammered by the Havasu guys, congrats on your win, you deserve it by hard work and talent. When I asked Art Berry this same question he said it had to be hard for the average weekend warrior to fish all year and qualify only to go to the Championship's and really stand a very small chance against these Pro's. Does this impede the growth of our sport? Now regular tournaments during the season dont apply to this question, just the fishoffs. Look at A/C who's main group of Southern participants got tired of taking a beating by the McAbee's at Clear Lake in all the fishoff's. Now Randy jr is 2nd in the FLW points and has taken his game to the next level. Just a simple question, should the pro's be allowed in the Weekend Team guys Championships? Rick G.

wccjanel · Post by **wccjanel** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 6:50 pm

Well, it is like singing Karaoke against Huey Lewis. Oh wait, they made a movie about that.

No doubt there may be an acute lopsidedness (yes that's a word) towards the guy who fishes 200 more times a year than the others, but really now... Every tournament is won by the biggest sack of fish.
I know I sure wouldn't want to play half court (two-on-two) against LaBron James, and Kobie Bryant, even with Art Berry as my partner.

But that's just me.

Ricky-S · Post by **Ricky-S** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 7:01 pm

Well, one of the biggest problems is that none of us will ever completely agree on what a "Pro" is.

With that said-I can see your point.

Ray L. · Post by **Ray L.** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 7:32 pm

good question Rick. I do agree with Ricky though. There are many opinions on what a pro is. Do I mind fishing against Art or Mike Rooke or Mike Goodwin etc. etc.etc. No I don't mind at all. I think it brings out the best in an angler. It makes him work harder to try and win.

mike rooke · Post by **mike rooke** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:01 pm

Of course statements like cause drama! Why else make them?
I guess Ricky S. has it - how would anyone agree on what is a pro? Does that mean that anybody that puts up the money to fish as a pro should be banned? What about the "Pro" that fishes these events but rarely cashes a check?
All anglers fish by their own will - they know the field of competition when they enter. If anglers have real issue with it, they probably wouldn't put in their time and effort. Just look at last week's AC tourney, won by "weekend anglers" not "touring pros". And, why would you fish a whole season and not fish the Championship?
Does anyone personally have a problem with me fishing team events? Feel free to let me know! And to anyone who wants to be on the water 200 days a year - quit your job & do it!
Mike Rooke, aka "Havasu Guy"

smpboy · Post by **smpboy** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:21 pm

yes it does hurt growth in are sport thats why most tourneys only draw 25 boats now days cause the average guy is just donating his $ to the guy that has been fishing all week and people cant afford to do that now days, both fish offs so far have been won by pros and havasu locals the average weekend angler doesnt stand a chance is it fair no but what can we do we dont have a lake around here to have a fishoff at unless dvl but then u screw half the guys that dont have the right enignes u gota love so cali

Jim V. · Post by **Jim V.** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:22 pm

...Just a simple question, should the pro's be allowed in the Weekend Team guys Championships?

No

smpboy · Post by **smpboy** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:27 pm

yea the weekend angler won ac choice cause everyone was gone at flw

mike rooke · Post by **mike rooke** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:37 pm

Please define a pro.

Ricky-S · Post by **Ricky-S** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:49 pm

Some one who wins a $100,000 in a tournament

Just Kidding.

Ask 100 people this question and get 100 answers.

Unless tournament orgs create or define rules against it, everyone who puts up their money has the right to compete.

I think that gas prices and the economy has more to do with it than Mike and Shaun ( and others) fishing team events. Heck, Ish fished team tournaments all year and got his butt kicked at Clear Lake two weeks ago.

On any given day anyone can beat these "Pros". That's the beauty of this sport. These guys put their pants on just like everyone else.

Don't be scared.

smpboy · Post by **smpboy** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:58 pm

thats a good ? ...id say someone that makes more than 25k a year fishing should be a pro for that year and or fishes more than 100 days a year and their income relies on fishing and sponsers

Mike Meier · Post by **Mike Meier** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:59 pm

Someone that quits there job and is on the water 200 days a year.

Mike M.

RYAN KROST · Post by **RYAN KROST** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:59 pm

Well Rick your sure did open up a can of worms now

. Mike I would say a pro would be anyone who has fished as pro and cashed a pro check. So I guess I would be banned to... shuks, but I highley doubt that will ever happen so no worrys. Good job again mike and shaun I'll get you guys some day

Garrett Mercer · Post by **Garrett Mercer** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 9:04 pm

I think its great to fish against them. Personally, I find it inspiring, to see these Pro's who have worked their tails off for years to become what they are today and to fish against them makes me want to get to that next level even more so over the next few years after college, etc..... Seeing Mike and Sean win was great, knowing what great guys they are and how much time they put on the lake, they deserve it. These guys fishing the trails and championships I think helps grow the sport. I cant tell you how many times Art dominated San Diego for years, same with John and Rusty S, those guys are doing great on FLW, and the thing is all these guys started locally and got to the level they are today. I think its great. The day you do beat those pros on their home water, will be rewarding. Those guys work hard and deserve all the money they win. Winning a tournament, you want to win against the best, the pros. JMO

Garrett

wccjanel · Post by **wccjanel** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 9:07 pm

Mike,

You're so right on. And as you know, I did quit my day job. That didn't give me more time to fish, however. Nor did it make me any better.

If a person (or team) ponies up and shows up to the monthly events, and make the championship, then they should be allowed to fish. Period.
I think we are all just new to this subject out here. Go east of the Rio Grande however, and Tour events and coffee can tournaments alike, share a lot of the same anglers. These guys not only compete, but help each other - encourage each other. Then they root for each other when they do branch out into bigger events.
We have that here, too. Don't we?
I think I speak for many at how proud we are of you and Shaun. As individuals, and as a team, the both of you have come a long way, and are fine ambassadors to the sport.
Besides, I thought it was cool when you and Goodwin went back-to-back against them FLW tour guys to open the NG West series.

I think the topic does touch on the dark side of the fact that most of the tour guys line their wallets from fees paid by the day job holding weekend warriors. But we all know that going in, don't we?

Oh, and I recently saw ED and Judy again, and they both say, "Hi".

Peace be with you,
James

Ron T. · Post by **Ron T.** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 9:38 pm

That's a tough one Rick . We all know there are some guys that fish pro tournaments do so because they can financally , not because they are that good . Than there are the guys that are that good but have other priorities that does not allow them to chase that dream to the fulliest . Last but certainly not least the guys that are able to put the whole package into the works . Hats off to them .
Should they be able to fish the TOCs ? It depends on how a guy wants to look at the competition . The weekend guy can take it as a threat or as an added challange . If a guy takes it as a threat he has already beat himself before his boat ever touches the water . If a guy looks at it as an added challange all the better the victory can be . Even if a guy does not WIN the challenge it does not mean he lost . When I can beat a guy that really has a " home lake advantage " or "pro statice "by just one spot , I accomplished something .
How does a person say who can and who can not fish a TOC. The only person that will never beat these pros or win a TOC is the guy that gets beat even before the boat gets wet ! I say bring it on !

Hollywood · Post by **Hollywood** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 10:02 pm

I agree with you Mike, anyone who complains about someone being on the water 200+ days a year should take the same challange the guys who are on the water 200+ days a year did. Put in your two weeks notice and give it a shot!

If your trying to limit what a "pro" angler can and should fish, then you might as well not allow all the local guides to fish the tourneys either, after all, there on the water 200+ days a year too. And don't forget them retired guys too who spend there retired days on the lake and river.

See ya soon Mike! Oh and my father says hello!

Kevin

mike rooke wrote:Of course statements like cause drama! Why else make them?
I guess Ricky S. has it - how would anyone agree on what is a pro? Does that mean that anybody that puts up the money to fish as a pro should be banned? What about the "Pro" that fishes these events but rarely cashes a check?
All anglers fish by their own will - they know the field of competition when they enter. If anglers have real issue with it, they probably wouldn't put in their time and effort. Just look at last week's AC tourney, won by "weekend anglers" not "touring pros". And, why would you fish a whole season and not fish the Championship?
Does anyone personally have a problem with me fishing team events? Feel free to let me know! And to anyone who wants to be on the water 200 days a year - quit your job & do it!
Mike Rooke, aka "Havasu Guy"

longshot · Post by **longshot** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 10:12 pm

I think that any time you are playing in a "GAME" with a team, player that is better than you it steps up your game. You wont get better unless you step up the competition.
I play serious competition fastpitch softball at times we have to play against teams like team addidas ect. they travel from all over the country and are the best we have very little chance of beating them but we put up the best fight that we can and learn from there technics ect.
One thing that is great about playing these teams though is they are always greatfull that we play against them and are willing to help us get better. I hate it when a person or team is errogant and totally tight lipped. Its a little different with fishing because of the individual part of the game but if the pros are willing to be opproachable as this is the lower levels then we should all be happy to learn from those that are "BETTER" than the average.
L.S.

littlebailey · Post by **littlebailey** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 10:59 pm

I think we need to have a list of questions that we all know shouldnt be asked (due to obvious reasons that even a 2 year old can realize) and put them all together on one post. We can Title it, So Cals Finest!!!This one should be near the top of the list! LittleBailey Out!

Rick G · Post by **Rick G** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 11:37 pm

Before when I ran the Club Top 6 Events that were at Havasu we had a 'Pro's" rule and it was anyone that had finished in the top 10 THAT year on the Pro Tour was out. It was not to penalize someone for trying the Pro side, just if he did well, because it was a Club level event. As a business owner I am always looking for reasons to help Grow my business. That is my question, does this hurt growth? I am not picking a side one way or another and don't get your panties in a uproar this post is NOT intended on picking on anyone. This question comes up all the time at the store by all level of customers. And for Mr. Little Bailey thanks for the cool video, it is awesome, congrats. Again, please no drama, just your honest thoughts.Remenber, the natural progression of this Sport has always been Rec. fishermen-Club Member-Team Angler-Pro. Peace. Rick G.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 12:32 am

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THIS IS WAY TO LONG - - - but, I have a lot to say about this topic!!! Keep in mind that this is only MY view on this topic and I know not everyone will agree.

Also - it may bounce around a lot - as I got nostalgic about 5 times!

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First off - there are several of you who got it right on here. Definining a pro is a tough task. Is a pro someone who pays to fish any FLW or Stren event? Is a pro someone who is sponsored? Is a pro someone who cashes a check in an FLW or Stren event? If so, what if its just a small check?

With that said - I still think we ought to keep it just like it is! Why would you want to win an event that limited its competitors to the "not so good"? What kind of satisfaction would that give you? That's like saying I was all league J.V. in high school! Big whooped-de-do... if you were good you would have been playing Varsity as a Junior not J.V.? For those who don't think they have the skills to win against anyone anytime.. well I suggest 1 of 4 things.

1. Practice and get better.
2. Find a Club with your level of competition. (Be careful because some of the clubs are laden with super sticks!)
3. Stick to fun fishing.
4. Find a new sport.

For me... if there weren't the best out there than I wouldn't want to fish the events. I enjoy fishing against guys like Bailey, Rooke, Art Berry, Tim Klinger and all the rest of the big boys in the west. Up here in Northern Cal I even get to fish against guys like Gary Dobyns, Jimmy Reese, Ish Monroe, Zach Thompson, Jim Davis, Jared Lintner (North and South), both of the Bennetts and so many more.

Most of those guys that have forgotten more about fishing than I will ever know... but, that's the great thing about it. When you do well it makes it that much better. I won a tournament earlier this year (my first) and the best part of it was I know I did it against some of the best... Marshall and McCosker practically own clear lake, RJ Bennett, Hage and Seals, Kevin Davis, Chad Frie and Tony Francheshi - These guys are all great sticks especially on Clear Lake. Had it been against any lesser group of guys it wouldn't feel nearly as good.

If I fished DVL and didn't get to fish against, Art Berry, Kyle Grover, Mitch Southern, Mike Phua, Josh Moreno, Will Rakowitz and the other great DVL sticks and somehow did really well it just wouldn't feel the same. Now if I fished against all those guys and stunk up the lake then I'd at least know where I stood and what type of weights I would need to attain to reach the next level!

Do I think I can compete with these guys day in and day out? Heck no.. but, it sure is a satisfying feeling when I cash a check or beat one of these guys. I've always felt if you want to get better you need to play with better guys. That goes for golf, football, baseball, basketball, checkers, chess, pool, darts... you name it!!!

I think back about 3 and a half years ago when I first started this sport I was lucky enough to fish events against guys like Matt Newman and Dave Holoubek, Mike Brakebill and Chris Rodino, Bill Seimantel, Shaun Bailey, Mike Rooke and more. We'd come in with 2 fish for 3 lbs and they'd somehow seem to come in with limits and big limits too! We were in awe... but, we kept donating. We knew we had to donate for a while before we could ever compete. It's called "TAKING YOUR LUMPS." We always looked up to those guys and listened to their every word when they won or when they talked shop in the parking lot. Every event we wanted to beat one of those teams... and that feeling of wanting to compete and beat those guys drove us to get better. Even today I still donate often but, at least now I always feel like I have a shot and guess what, nowadays I catch limits most of the time. Would I have gotten any better just fun fishing? maybe --- but, now that isn't my style. For some it may be.. but, for me.... its more like throw me out there with the wolves and let me try and survive, I'll figure it out or go down fighting if I don't!

I'll digress even further - but, I think back to high school football (A LONG LONG TIME AGO) However, I played for one of the best high school programs in the nation at Fontana High School - for probably the best high school football coach in the country - Dick Bruich. He didn't sugar coat it for the sophomores. He made us go balls to the wall against the Varsity.. every one of us. No sophomore teams, no JV teams - we were all one and we were basically kamikazee tackling dummies for the big boys ("Take our lumps" - literally)- and by big I mean REALLY BIG - Big 12, Pac 10, Big 10 scholarship guys. Well, we did it - and we did it EVERY DAY For 18-20 weeks, everyday 120% full speed or we heard about it (to say the least)! and guess what us youngsters got better - a lot better!! We got so much better that we were better as seniors than the seniors were when we were sophomores and we went on to win a National Championship (ESPN and USA Today 1987) and 17 guys off that team got full rides to college. Had we have gotten any better if Coach Bruich didn't let us practice or play with the big boys before we were truly ready? I seriously doubt it!

Now to bring this back to fishing - I guess to be the best you need to "Take your lumps" for a while and with hard work and dedication maybe someday you'll be giving more lumps then you are taking! And that's the rewarding part - that feeling that you made the jump from the bottom of the ladder to somewhere up the ladder... maybe you or I will never reach the top step... but, with each step you climb the satsifaction builds within yourself.

OK back to the guys who don't want to compete against the best
If you want to just make money and get checks might I suggest club tournaments or taking up another sport where you can put in less effort and still get pretty good checks. For example: Poker! If you're smart or lucky - you can play poker once or twice a month and still be at the top of your game. Fishing, if you fish only once or twice a month you won't be at the top of your game. Golf - if you golf once or twice a month again you won't be at the top of your game either.. same goes for basketball and many other sports!

Possible Answer
Maybe the answer is already out there - just not in the Southern Cal market - for those interested in this as a hobby or something they can compete in just once in a while and have a chance there are club events and Semi-Pro events. We have Semi-Pro trails up here in the north with Angler's Choice Semi-Pro, 100% Rookie (something or other) and Future Bass. Maybe there is room for a trail like that in the south. I tried it once and it FAILED MISERABLY... but, maybe now is the time for a trail like that. Who knows...

Again --- Just my .02

tunaman · Post by **tunaman** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 4:13 am

Plain and simple... if they paid their money during the season, qualified for the championship, then they should be eligible.

Now if someone wants to start excluding them from the regular season events, that's a different thing and it goes against the spirit and intent... nowhere have I seen any statement that any of our local tournament trails are "amateur only" status.

There are all levels of anglers fishing these events... and as stated previously many levels and definitions of "Pro". I myself don't mind fishing against the best, as it is a true guage of where my skills currently lie... I don't want any manipulation intended to blow smoke up my a$$.

Roger

Rick G · Post by **Rick G** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:45 am

because the real reason I brought this up is gettin closer to a boil. Glad to see Tom L. involved, just need a few more guys. Tom L. is on the right track though. Almost. Rick G.

DeltaBound · Post by **DeltaBound** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:48 am

Let me ask you this...Once a person joins an orginization as a Pro, and within that same orginization decides he wants to fish one of the tournaments as an Amateur, is that allowed? NO. I've never thought it was fair for a touring pro to fish weekend team tournaments for his income supplement.

Hollywood · Post by **Hollywood** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:51 am

What if it's his only chance to fish with his father, mother, son, daughter or best friend? If you want to fish againts amatures only in a team tournament, then ask 100% to bring there rookie teams trail down to so cal..

Why isn't it fair if a touring pro wants to fish local team tournaments, even if it does supplement his income?

If your not fishing tournaments for the competition then why are you fishing them?

Just curious...

DeltaBound wrote:Let me ask you this...Once a person joins an orginization as a Pro, and within that same orginization decides he wants to fish one of the tournaments as an Amateur, is that allowed? NO. I've never thought it was fair for a touring pro to fish weekend team tournaments for his income supplement.

B Becker · Post by **B Becker** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:59 am

LET THEM FISH.....How do you measure yourself with others, "by height?".....

...gotta fish against the best if you ever want to be the best......there is a guy here in Vegas who I think is one of the best sticks if not the best stick in the West, but you would never know it, because he chose to be a family guy rather than chase the sport (Pro stuff)....he fishes most of the team circuits and kicks our a$$ every time on Mohave and Mead as well.....if he doesn't fish in the tourney, then I'm disappointed.....I would love to see Danny Branscum take a year and fish the big stuff....he did years ago and won the All American (the old Redman, which turned into the BFL).....one of the greatest fisherman ever!! and probably the nicest guy too.....LET THEM FISH....they paid their money and they qualified just like everyone else.....

DeltaBound · Post by **DeltaBound** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 6:27 am

IMHO, any angler who gets paid (Money) by his sponsors to compete is a PRO. I'm not talking about the little garage pouring worm sponsors either

.

Hollywood · Post by **Hollywood** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 6:33 am

and he shouldnt be allowed to compete at a local tournament because he gets paid to represent something?

bigbass111 · Post by **bigbass111** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 6:36 am

Finding out who is or isn't "PRO" is VERY easy. Pro is short for????????? "Professional" it is when the work/sport you are in is your profession.
When I moved out here "Florida" 2 years ago, I was amazed at how they segragated their fields. In several tournament org's down here if you are a full time guide and/or Touring PRO you are not eligable to fish. This bring's the turnout for their events through the roof. Most trails will not let you fish solo "Team only" and you cannot sub people. So if your team mate is a touring Pro and he cannot make an event you cannot enter and you loose those points.
So what does a guide/pro fish for fun down here "Open's". They let anyone fish and there are no points, JUST MONEY. If your on the fish you try your luck against to big guys.
If I'm not mistaken WON Bass did not allow anyone to fish as a non-boater if they have cashed a PRO check, correct ?, and why.
Entry turnout's down here for 4-5 org's have never been higher because of the PRO/GUIDE rule. But there are 2 or 3 tournaments every weekend on almost every body of water to choose from. So the options for your personal talent's are endless.
I think Rick has a great question, and if there was an event like that in So-cal you would see a great turnout for the average joe to get their shot.

Just my 2 cents

bigbass111 · Post by **bigbass111** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 6:48 am

In Fact name it "Average Joe's"

If you build it they will come...........................

Scott E. · Post by **Scott E.** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 6:54 am

I'm new to this site (just registered a few days ago) and new to tourney fishing (got 3 DVL night tourneys under my belt. I see alot of replys here about "the competition and beating the best, and taking your lumps etc. ie, it's a pride thing. Alot of you seem to be saying "where's your pride weekend/new guy?" Well, how about the flip side of the coin? Would guys like PGA pros
Jose Maria Olazabal or Davis Love III go out and pay and compete in the Texas Pro Golf tour to help cover tour expenses in a year like this for them because they are not in the top 100? I don't think they'd be caught dead out there. Personally, for guys that have risen to the top of THE GAME (FLW or BASS), I don't see how they would lower their standards to want to enter a weekend amatuer type event. I would think of it as embarrasing.

Murph · Post by **Murph** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:01 am

Original question, should they be allowed? Absolutely! ! For those that don't agree, you simply have to find a circuit or club that fits your needs. ( Now, if we could just get a TOC scheduled for the dang SPRING! )

DeltaBound · Post by **DeltaBound** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:04 am

Hollywood wrote:and he shouldnt be allowed to compete at a local tournament because he gets paid to represent something?

All I'm saying is... I sure wouldn't want to fish these Teams against Skeet Reese and Kevin Van Dam. Where do you draw the line? It's not the Wannabe's that worry me.

Mike Phua · Post by **Mike Phua** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:05 am

Awesome analogies Tom...........................I guess coming from a sports background I've never looked at it the way some of you guys do. I remember way back when I started fishing team tournaments and checking out the field and seeing Mike Folkestad, Aaron Martens, Art Berry it made me feel like I was apart of the "Big Leagues".

I never once thought "OH Crap there's Martens, or Damn Rooke and Bailey are out here" I was thinking to myself hell yah I'm kicking their a$$ today!

That sounds bad but I guess that's my competitive spirit coming out.

I work a regular job just like you guys but I find a way to get out and atleast try to put up a strong game against the best and winning a tournament against strong sticks like them is a huge goal of mine. I came close once and I think I can get up there again with some time on the water.

"I think the difference here is I look to improve and get better and not wish for my competition to diminish and get weaker" MP

Rick G · Post by **Rick G** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:08 am

Bigbass111 is on the right track. You guys are doing great. Keep it rolling. Rick G.

Garrett Mercer · Post by **Garrett Mercer** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:09 am

Isnt that what bass clubs are for? To get guys started against similar competition and introduce new guys into the sport? When money is involved, anyone who wants to pay should be alowed to play.

Murph · Post by **Murph** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:09 am

The Tourney Orgs. might want to try and discourage the "Teaming Up", of a couple of these touring Pros.

Hollywood · Post by **Hollywood** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:14 am

I thought so Garrett...

Garrett Mercer wrote:Isnt that what bass clubs are for? To get guys started against similar competition and introduce new guys into the sport? When money is involved, anyone who wants to pay should be alowed to play.

tunaman · Post by **tunaman** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:18 am

As usual, Rick is baiting the crowd, as he knows something we don't know

Alright Rick... sounds like someone is planning to start a tournament trail in which I may actually stand a chance of having a decent finish??? Please do tell???

big_gorilla · Post by **big_gorilla** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:49 am

I think a pro is anybody on this board who whines about this topic. lol just kidding guys.

If a pro is going to fish these team tournaments they must be required to fished 4 out of 5 events and not let his partner fish them to qualify without them.

I've seen where some of these guys don't fish many tournament but make it to the fish off. This I don't agree with but if they fish the whole season then I don't see a problem with it.

What people have to remember is you can beat any pro on any given day. I would love to see some of these championships moved around to different lakes.

macinckirk · Post by **macinckirk** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:55 am

tunaman wrote:As usual, Rick is baiting the crowd, as he knows something we don't know

Alright Rick... sounds like someone is planning to start a tournament trail in which I may actually stand a chance of having a decent finish??? Please do tell???

As I read this I would have to agree Roger so Lets hear it Rick G

I would love to see something out here for a guy thats in the middle

I do understand everything that is beening said but from my point of veiw. With the price of everything now adays and with just starting to fish out here again I would love to get into some trnys that I feel I have a chance to do ok

But when your trying to learn 10 lakes a year with Club fishing and 4 diff lakes with the region 7 fed fishing and then just fun fishing it gets into alot of $$$ So to get into a team trny on a lake that you don't know and have to fish with Guys that spend 200 days of the year on the water and also know everyone that knows the lake its HARD in my eyes to put up 300.00 or more to know I'm just giving it away.

I do understand about taking your lumps and have no problems with it. But I worked to hard for my money to just flush it down the toilet

But to get back to what was asked

If you know who is fishing and they put up there $$$ and so do you then Don't bi-th when the big dogs are taking the chezze, because you know what your getting into up front and YES they should be able to Fish

Just my 2 cents

Hollywood · Post by **Hollywood** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:56 am

so why make a stipulation to the "pros"? Should tournament fishing be fair to everyone?

big_gorilla wrote:I think a pro is anybody on this board who whines about this topic. lol just kidding guys.

If a pro is going to fish these team tournaments they must be required to fished 4 out of 5 events and not let his partner fish them to qualify without them.

I've seen where some of these guys don't fish many tournament but make it to the fish off. This I don't agree with but if they fish the whole season then I don't see a problem with it.

What people have to remember is you can beat any pro on any given day. I would love to see some of these championships moved around to different lakes.

Mike Phua · Post by **Mike Phua** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:57 am

Scott E. I can kind of see your point and dissagree at the same time. Feel free to dissagree I always felt like the Team events were like pro events. I mean we fish the same waters every week and every month and then fish them in the Tournaments as well. Geez I look at every person that enters that tournament as a Pro on that particular lake. There are some guys who only fish DVL and no where else. Wouldn't you call them DVL pro's???? There's guys that know every piece of structure out there and fish it relentlessly week in and week out...................I sure as hell would consider them a Professional of that lake.

If you can't agree with that your kidding yourself. Let's just say I'd be putting my money on: Grovers, Curry and Krumsiek, Southern and Akins, Rakowitz and Morin any day of the week over Vandam, Martens, Hackney, Ehrler, Reese and a bunch of Mega stars on the trail on any given day at DVL.

This is called the Local advantage or Home water Advantage! For you guys who don't know the guys that won the NBW Championship are Havasu Locals. Any local I think should be the favorites. Am I wrong??? Personally I think the Directors should put the Championships on Neutral water and not on a circuits home water if your asking me. Make a true Championship and not just another frigging tournament for the locals. My .02 MP

littlebailey · Post by **littlebailey** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:04 am

Thanks for the compliment on the video Rick! You da man. Just to let everyone know my intent was to get a chuckle, not to put anyone down. Sorry if it came off like it sounded. It was just a matter of time before this topic came up. Lets see where it goes.

The way i see it, If Shaun and Mike or any Kick a$$ team that fihes these derbies puts the time in to finding em the way they do, they deserve to win. I bet if Mike Goodwin would have won the derby this would have never come up. It would have been Cograts on your Win! Another Ranger owner wins again. I just dont get it i guess. Good Luck to all!

Hollywood · Post by **Hollywood** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:09 am

If you know your just "giving it away" maybe that level of competition is not for you, not saying it's not, just making a suggestion, maybe there is another level that would offer you a better confidence level.

Just like Mike R. said, if you want to fish 200 days a year, give your two weeks notice and do it but saying they shouldn't be allowed to fish local tourneys is wrong in my opinion. It's not for everyone.

For me, I will fish where the best competition is. The only way to improve besides time on the water is to compete againts the best day in and day out or in this case weekend after weekend.

I think Mike Phua has it right when he says that he looks at all anglers fishing the team tournaments as local pro's. It is anyone's day to win on any given day. And your not competing againts the touring pro's your competing againts the fish. Beat the fish and you will win!

macinckirk wrote:So to get into a team trny on a lake that you don't know and have to fish with Guys that spend 200 days of the year on the water and also know everyone that knows the lake its HARD in my eyes to put up 300.00 or more to know I'm just giving it away.

Kbeever · Post by **Kbeever** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:41 am

I think that anyone who has an ounce of self confidence would more than welcome competition from the pros. Mike Phua put it best ....

"

"I think the difference here is I look to improve and get better and not wish for my competition to diminish and get weaker" MP

I would love to have the opportunity to beat the Shaun Baileys of the world on their own lake. What pride would you have if you knew you weren't fishing against the best. I think it is awesome that the pros do come out and fish the local stuff.

I fish both Diamond Valley Night tournaments and San Diego Region and more often than not, I get beat by those guys. But once in a while, I manage to get on a pattern and beat the big sticks. Now that feels good!

Lastly, I think most people fish for the competition and not the money. What better competition than to have a pro to compete against. I know my profit and loss from bass fishing is deep in the red and I would need to win the Million Dollar FLW just to break even. With that being said "BRING ON ALL THE PROS".

macinckirk · Post by **macinckirk** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:45 am

Kevin your right its not for me right Now and thats why I don't do it. Now when I worked and had money coming out of my azz and it was a tax write off, Then I did play with the big dogs back in the mid west

But I still put in a few years before I jumped into the dog pit to learn the lakes

And that was waht I was trying to get across here For someone new getting into a area it would be nice to see something more geared for the middle guy

Hollywood · Post by **Hollywood** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:51 am

I never said it's not for you... It's all a confidence thing.

If your not ready for that level there are the TBF Federations, 100's of fishing clubs, pro/ams and a co angler, top stick tour. many things you can fish that will help you improve your skills and move up to where you feel comfy to fish at. The biggest thing is time on the water.. That is the only way to improve.

macinckirk wrote:Kevin your right its not for me right Now and thats why I don't do it. Now when I worked and had money coming out of my azz and it was a tax write off, Then I did play with the big dogs back in the mid west

But I still put in a few years before I jumped into the dog pit to learn the lakes

And that was waht I was trying to get across here For someone new getting into a area it would be nice to see something more geared for the middle guy

Robert F · Post by **Robert F** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:58 am

littlebailey wrote:The way i see it, If Shaun and Mike or any Kick a$$ team that fihes these derbies puts the time in to finding em the way they do, they deserve to win. I bet if Mike Goodwin would have won the derby this would have never come up. It would have been Cograts on your Win! Another Ranger owner wins again. I just dont get it i guess. Good Luck to all!

Ding, Ding, WINNER!!!! And if the thought is we need another "Sunday Series" sprinkled with these guys fishing with their sons or other shop employees, let's kill that idea right now. Bring on Rooke, Klinger, etc. at the desert lakes and keep Kerr and Long gainfully employeed down here on the San Diego lakes. I have learned a TON fishing with these guys. The only thing I do wish was that they were all as free with their techniques as Kerr and Long. You dont have to tell me exactly where you caught em to help. You should have seen the look on Mike Goodwin's face when I asked what was working at Havasu two weeks ago at Columbia.

wccjanel · Post by **wccjanel** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:00 am

DeltaBound wrote:Let me ask you this...Once a person joins an orginization as a Pro, and within that same orginization decides he wants to fish one of the tournaments as an Amateur, is that allowed? NO. I've never thought it was fair for a touring pro to fish weekend team tournaments for his income supplement.

Actually, it is allowed. The points do not perpetuate, but it is allowed.
As matter of fact, my friend Wade Headrick injured himself right before the FLW NG Delta event, and fished it on the co-angler side. He had already fished Havasu as a Pro, and got a check. He did so well at the Delta, he got another nice check and was in line for the big show in Alabama. He repeated that on the Columbia, and now is a sure thing to go to Alabama - Clearlake pending. And that is his pickle. He knows he can compete at Clearlake from the bow (Pro). But, does he stay on the back, just for points sake? What if he doesn't want to, or can't go to Alabama? That's his problem, not yours, not mine, not FLW's.
Do you get it?
Nowhere does it say an angler can't fish Amatuer after fishing Pro. Nor does it say the contrary. If anything, his story is a fine example of how to treat this like a business. And guess what, it is a business. At this level, with this much jabber-jawing, look around ... it is a business. You reap what you sow. Pay your dues now, collect with interest later.
Tom gets it.
Rick gets it.

To answer the underlying question Rick:
No, it does not matter. We have pure amatuer events already, they're called clubs. If you limit team events to not allow those of us calling ourselves pro in another circuit, you will draw less, not more.

Peace,
James

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