Siemantel copy cats Mattlures

Quantum_Kid · Post by **Quantum_Kid** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:03 pm

I think he is referring to the picture of the bait. It had the Tackle Tour logo in the corner.

Scott

BassManDan · Post by **BassManDan** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:30 pm

Look what you started Steve, now everyone has their feelings hurt

I'm sure there are many sides to this two sided story, but I'm too lazy to read them all, but I know there are plenty of baits out there that are look alikes, if not flat out copies. Yes this is part of the evolution of fishing lures, simply because it is so rare that something totally new and improved is introduced into the market, and then once it is, there are gonna be knock offs.

Good job on the hot topic for the week!

BassManDan

Tin Can · Post by **Tin Can** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:04 pm

bassindon69 wrote:
Tin Can wrote:Jigs have been catching mosters for ages!
Hmmm I fished jigs many more years then I have swimbaits and NEVER even got a little 30 lb bag. I did get one bass over 10 on a jig, it only took 15 years

Fun stuff Tin

These days you can justify ANYTHING it seems.

Don.

It's not my fault ya can't catch big jig fish!

I'm not saying it's cool to copy anyone hard work by any means, but it's going to happen regardless of what any of us think.

Greg_Cornish · Post by **Greg_Cornish** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:12 pm

Quantum_Kid wrote:I think he is referring to the picture of the bait. It had the Tackle Tour logo in the corner.

Scott

That's for advertising when you copy it, not a copyright. It needs a copyright notice and a Â© or tradmark â„¢ for that.

sTony · Post by **sTony** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:22 pm

I was just trying to defuse things a bit and I see it didn't work at all, hahaha.

What many may not know is this is literally the tip of the iceberg when it comes to what I've affectionately come to call the Swimbait Wars. The stuff that goes on behind the scenes is fascinating and sometimes sad at the same time. Guys that were once the best of friends are no longer. Almost all of them have huge grudges against the other. Some won't allow their baits to be sold in a store that carries one of the others and so on. It's like a soap opera. Companies are in court fighting each other over this bill or that tail or what have you. Very few if any have gone through the steps for patent protection and some can't get it when they try. That being the case I figure the doors are open wide to copies and if you make a bait and bring it to market you can do so expecting it'll be copied in no time at all. It's the nature of the beast and has been for some time now.

I get a kick out of the notion that a copy dilutes the revenue potential of the original. There are a lot of arguments on all sides of that one. And I've yet to see a knock off bait that performed as the original. Sometimes better and sometimes worse but never the same.

sTony

bassenvy · Post by **bassenvy** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:24 pm

mjr wrote:would you be flattered if you were to study hard for an exam only to have the person next to you copying your answers?

This is really what it comes down to. If what Bill did was true Matt has every right to be mad at him. Considering Matt's attention to detail I believe he'd be able recognize his own work.

As for "there's only so many ways to make a 'gill" it takes an open mind to be an innovator not a duplicator. Do your research and support the guys that are paving the way.

lunker punker · Post by **lunker punker** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:27 pm

Same thing happened in the world of hand poured worms years ago.

bassinholic · Post by **bassinholic** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:38 pm

Steve wrote:Just thought you all might find this post interesting. I did.

http://www.newenglandfishing.net/index. ... opic=23060

Didnt Castaic make the first bluegill swimbait?

So did Mattlures copy their design from Castaic...

Truth is this argument should have been handled on a more personal level and not taken to a public forum. Mattlures is lashing out at Siemantel and personally I think its bad form, he is only making himself look like an A$$ and personally feel that this was an attack on Siemantel AFTER it comes out that he is being nominated for the Hall of Fame...how low is that? How long ago was ICAST? Why is this problem being taken so public by Mattlures? Is MAttlures a paid sponsor of this sight and hoping to get free advertisement to up his sales? So many questions to be answered...hmmmmmm

Dom · Post by **Dom** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 2:02 pm

I dont get it, I just dont buy it. Whats next? A giant walking bait?

The bbz 1 set the stage for this and its now getting old. If you are so apologetic you better walk up to Jerry Rago and apologize.

Im not so sure he will accept your apology. How blatant can it get before people realize you havent designed a thing?

Let me get this straight. You cant carve. You cant draw. How do you prototype anything?

You use existing baits for your template is my guess. MAYBE Im wrong. Dont think for a minute that you are friends with Rago and dont mislead the public by saying otherwise.

You are born with talent, either you got it or you dont lure making is a art form not a software program

Dom

mac (Doyle McEwen) · Post by **mac (Doyle McEwen)** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 2:11 pm

Dom, there is no reason a person could not use a computer program for designing a bait..In fact I would be willing to wager a great many of the baits we see today started as a computer design..Not all lure designers still rely on hand carved models for their prototypes..I think I know what you were trying to get across, but as times change, so do the ways of accomplishing tasks..

mac

bpm2000 · Post by **bpm2000** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 2:16 pm

mac (Doyle McEwen) wrote:Dom, there is no reason a person could not use a computer program for designing a bait..In fact I would be willing to wager a great many of the baits we see today started as a computer design..Not all lure designers still rely on hand carved models for their prototypes..I think I know what you were trying to get across, but as times change, so do the ways of accomplishing tasks..

mac

isnt that how jackall does things now, in-house computer models?

bassinholic · Post by **bassinholic** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 2:28 pm

bpm2000 wrote:
mac (Doyle McEwen) wrote:Dom, there is no reason a person could not use a computer program for designing a bait..In fact I would be willing to wager a great many of the baits we see today started as a computer design..Not all lure designers still rely on hand carved models for their prototypes..I think I know what you were trying to get across, but as times change, so do the ways of accomplishing tasks..

mac
isnt that how jackall does things now, in-house computer models?

What Computer used to make baits?? WTF? Are you saying that people are using technology to make baits that would help us land more fish ...

Im feeling robbed that not everyone of my baits are hand carved and the designer took the time to individually make my baits...Bassfishing what a rip!!

TomL · Post by **TomL** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 2:28 pm

I get a kick out of the notion that a copy dilutes the revenue potential of the original. There are a lot of arguments on all sides of that one.

sTony - please tell me you are kidding on this one right?

How can having a direct replica of anything let alone a bait - being sold for less money (in most cases) not DIRECTLY effect the income from the original?

For example: for the 1000's of guys who knew no better and bought a Bass Harrasser instead of a Hudd - Those weren't direct lost sales to Huddleston??? Of course they were!

I'd love to heare any of the arguments tot he contrary of this one!

bassinholic · Post by **bassinholic** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 2:30 pm

TomL wrote:
I get a kick out of the notion that a copy dilutes the revenue potential of the original. There are a lot of arguments on all sides of that one.
sTony - please tell me you are kidding on this one right?

How can having a direct replica of anything let alone a bait - being sold for less money (in most cases) not DIRECTLY effect the income from the original?

For example: for the 1000's of guys who knew no better and bought a Bass Harrasser instead of a Hudd - Those weren't direct lost sales to Huddleston??? Of course they were!

I'd love to heare any of the arguments tot he contrary of this one!

Well the idiots that bought the bass harrasser are idots..end of story and my hudds will always be in stock!! Hudds are the only way to fish swimbaits...everything else is well...junk..JMO

TomL · Post by **TomL** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 2:32 pm

bassinholic - agreed! but, still those harrasser sales impacted Huddleston sales DIRECTLY did they not?

BMX Bassin · Post by **BMX Bassin** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 2:39 pm

sTony wrote:
What many may not know is this is literally the tip of the iceberg when it comes to what I've affectionately come to call the Swimbait Wars. The stuff that goes on behind the scenes is fascinating and sometimes sad at the same time. That being the case I figure the doors are open wide to copies and if you make a bait and bring it to market you can do so expecting it'll be copied in no time at all. It's the nature of the beast and has been for some time now.

sTony

I think this is his way of saying (in politically correct fashion), yeah its a copy

TomL · Post by **TomL** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 2:43 pm

BMX - and I agree with that 100% and I unfortunately have seen the good, the bad and the ugly in a lot of these wars - up close. Even been in a few myself!

However, I just don't understand how he can say

I get a kick out of the notion that a c ... that one.

Greg_Cornish · Post by **Greg_Cornish** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 2:46 pm

I think this will be the longest topic in WB.com history

bassinholic · Post by **bassinholic** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 2:50 pm

TomL wrote:bassinholic - agreed! but, still those harrasser sales impacted Huddleston sales DIRECTLY did they not?

You know I cant really say if they ever effected the Huddleston sales, but I do know that Ken Huddleston isnt on a public forum, blasting out at the manufacturer of the harrasser and screaming "YOU COPIED MY BAIT".

Everyone copies bait (not saying this is what happened in the Siemantel/mattlures drama) look at the Senko, Ive seen worm manufacturers make their own versions that look very close to the original, but Gary Yamamoto isnt screaming "YOU COPIED MY BAIT", its no different, they have imiitators out there but i usually stick with the original makers product, why buy junk when you know that you get quality baits from the original designer...its the fishing world as we know it....somebody is always trying to find a way to copy the original hot bait, hoping to make a dollars selling a less quality product. JMO

Tin Can · Post by **Tin Can** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 2:55 pm

It's a different market, guys wanting bass harassers are not willing to shell out 40 bucks or else they would have bought a Hudd!
I have some, I bought them when I wasn't willing to buy a hudd for 40 bucks. I know I didn't cost Huddleston a sale because a Hudd isn't what I wanted, not at that price at that time.

In the world of swimbaits, you get what you pay for.

sTony · Post by **sTony** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:05 pm

TomL wrote:
I get a kick out of the notion that a copy dilutes the revenue potential of the original. There are a lot of arguments on all sides of that one.
sTony - please tell me you are kidding on this one right?

How can having a direct replica of anything let alone a bait - being sold for less money (in most cases) not DIRECTLY effect the income from the original?

I've yet to see a direct replica of any of these baits but mind you, I don't fish them a lot either. There generally out of my budget. But I don't fish the lesser priced swim baits much either.

I said I haven't seen a copycat bait yet that fished the same as what they were attempting to copy.

But I'm still wondering what about the notion that you either have a patent protected product or you don't. Does Rapala lose money every time someone buys a Luckycraft? I don't think so. Does buying a Big Mac put Burger King out of business? Hasn't yet. Surely one product dilutes the sales of the other, right?

And none of this has anything to do with this original thread because it's about a bait that hasn't even gone into production yet.

sTony

TomL · Post by **TomL** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:09 pm

Had you had no other option you quite possibly would have bought a Hudd... and even if you wouldn't have - there are many others that were in your situation that would have. You can argue this all day long - but, the truth is however RIGHT OR WRONG it may be, every copied bait costs the original manufacturer $$$ period. Sometimes a little - sometimes a lot but, there is definitely a cost to it.

Next - Hudd may not slam people online - I have never seen him post anywhere but, trust me when I say he is fighting battles in other ways with people who copy his baits. Agree with it or not - he is definitely defending his ground in the way he sees best.

Also - Keep in mind MattLures didn't start this thread... In fact, all he did was reply to Bill after whoever started it - started it and Bill replied. What the context of Matt's original post or what he might have been replying to - I can't tell because I am not a member of that site.

I am not taking sides here - all I am saying is that designers won't be designing for long if we don't support them as best we can!

Also, I am not a fan of copied baits period - Swimbaits, Senkos, whatever - I use the original whereever possible! (Just my opinion and you don't have to do the same as me by any means) Crankbaits and spinnerbait originals were before my time so I can't use those originals!

TomL · Post by **TomL** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:21 pm

Granted - I like the Burger King McD's analogy. But also, keep in mind this is a little different - McD's did not invent/design the hamburger and even so - Burger King is certainly costing them some business. Put them out of business? Well not in their world - but, then again we are talking fishing lures in our conversation and fishing lure manufacturers for the most part don't make the kind of money McDonalds and Burger King does.

I think you are right on with most of what you are saying sTony - but, when it comes to the original manufacturer not losing revenue I think you and I will have to disagree on that one! It's all good.

Mark - respectfully, it's just a lure to you! To some guys its Rent, food, clothes for their kids, gas money, payroll for their employees and more. So although it may not matter to me or you - if a big company copies a little company it can certainly matter to the little company. (In general - not this case specifically)

sTony · Post by **sTony** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:25 pm

Tom,

The internet has kind of 'got ya' on this one because Matt certainly did post in here about this before Bill came in and responded. Some posts appear to have been deleted by their authors so this thread has gotten jacked around a bit.

So that being said. I still don't get why anybody who creates a bait that can't possibly be patent protected gets upset when someone else builds a bait. I mean come on. Guy built a bait that looks like a trout so now no one ever from then on could ever build a bait that looked like a trout ever again. That's funny.

How many folks manufacture crank baits? Do they all pay royalties to the guy that first made one? Should we shoot the foul heathens that dared make a crank bait other then the first guy? What if the copy cats crank baits are better then the original? What if they fished entirely differently?

These folks are the founders of a new classification of baits and actually, a couple few now. What can be patent protected is and what can't be is argued about endlessly.

I don't get why we're arguing about this Tom. You're a purist apparently and I'm not. My question to you is do fish only Mann's worms or did that copycat Gary Yamamoto get into your pocket as well?

sTony

N.A.R · Post by **N.A.R** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:41 pm

Isn't Aarons Magic the most copied bait (Color) in California? Shouldn't Robo be sceaming their heads off when you see the ...
AM or Aarons Tragic or Jose's Magic etc etc....

You guys need to stop, cause I don't want any of this to stop Bill from producing his 6" BBZ Trout, I need this bait for Diamond Valley this winter!

Darkman · Post by **Darkman** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:44 pm

Said it once and I'll say it again

Grown men acting like children....still hard to stomach

use your money to buy what you want

and to all designers and future designers....this is the BUISSNESyour in and it was like this BEFORE you got in it

Gitzits
senkos
Cream worms

if it works...its gonna get knocked off....PERIOD

it doesnt make it right...its just a fact

TomL · Post by **TomL** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:47 pm

I mentioned I cannot be loyal to the baits that were designed before my time (I said crankbaits and spinnerbaits, but that could go for worms, buzzbaits, etc) as I do not know who the original one's of those were.

As for the internet "getting me" - O' Contrare - Matt did not start this thread nor post on it until after Bill did - I have monitored this thread VERY CLOSELY from the first 10 minutes it was posted... The quote the reads MATT SAID - and then the story came from another site - posted by another member. However, I can see where that is a little misleading as it looks like it is from this forum - but, I can assure you it is not. Also, I do not know the context of Matt's original post on another site - because I am not a member there and cannot see it. So he could be directly responding to questions posed to him on that board...

I am not a purist - but, I appreciate very much what designers (A list too long to type right now) put into their products and therefore support them in any way I can. As I said - there were many many baits designed well before my time (bass fishing time) and I am not going to build timelines and use only the originals on those... however, for me it is important TO ME that I support original designers of new things. Just the way, I am. I am not saying this is either right or wrong and by no means am I telling you or anyone else that is what they should do ---- but, I did mention to "Think About it".

FishaHallic · Post by **FishaHallic** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:50 pm

Stupid question, what does BBZ stand for

.

Greg_Cornish · Post by **Greg_Cornish** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:52 pm

From the other Forum

bpm2000 · Post by **bpm2000** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:53 pm

We wouldnt have the western whopper, the quad stack, the southwest chicken sandwich, etc (not saying they're all good

) if they didn't keep trying to outdo each other. I certainly don't want to eat the same exact burger or fish the same exact lures for the next 50 years.

BMX Bassin · Post by **BMX Bassin** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:55 pm

bassinholic wrote:
TomL wrote:bassinholic - agreed! but, still those harrasser sales impacted Huddleston sales DIRECTLY did they not?
You know I cant really say if they ever effected the Huddleston sales, but I do know that Ken Huddleston isnt on a public forum, blasting out at the manufacturer of the harrasser and screaming "YOU COPIED MY BAIT".

No, but from what hear he takes it out on the dealers and wont let them sell hudds if they sell a swimbait co. he has a beef with. For instance rumor has it he pulled out of Swimbait city because Don sold some Rago baits. The politics of fishing suck. but almost unavoidable sometimes.[

Iafrate94505 · Post by **Iafrate94505** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:55 pm

I thought LeoGrande Quit Western Bass ????

let me look for the thread.

sTony · Post by **sTony** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:56 pm

I so don't want to argue TomL. You win!

stony

NaCl · Post by **NaCl** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:59 pm

Sorry Darkman, gotta disagree with you.

This is not about business. If it was about "business", the original inventer of ANY significant product would get a patent and sue anyone who infringes, to protect both his design and his market share.

IMHO - the truth is, all these "bass wars" are about EGO! And, it's not surprising, considering that the engine that moves the entire bass fishing community is ego-fueled.

That said, this current "fight" is like watching a bunch of roosters puff up in the barnyard, each one trying to out-puff the other. LOL

TomL · Post by **TomL** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:06 pm

I did - and still have for the most part - I post very rarely until this thread.

Scott Shambre · Post by **Scott Shambre** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:06 pm

TomL wrote:I did - and still have for the most part - I post very rarely until this thread.

needle, needle, poke, poke

g-man · Post by **g-man** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:09 pm

Bigger more important breaking news!!! The Angels sign Mark Teixeira... World series Here we come! LOL

All this other stuff makes me laugh!

Iafrate94505 · Post by **Iafrate94505** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:10 pm

75 post since quitting ?

hmm can I get a "rare" amount of baits from yer Monster ?

Scott Shambre · Post by **Scott Shambre** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:11 pm

g-man wrote:Bigger more important breaking news!!! The Angels sign Mark Teixeira... World series Here we come! LOL

All this other stuff makes me laugh!

Go away G...Stocky needs your help elsewhere????

BMX Bassin · Post by **BMX Bassin** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:12 pm

sTony wrote:
TomL wrote:
I get a kick out of the notion that a copy dilutes the revenue potential of the original. There are a lot of arguments on all sides of that one.
sTony - please tell me you are kidding on this one right?

How can having a direct replica of anything let alone a bait - being sold for less money (in most cases) not DIRECTLY effect the income from the original?
sTony

I bought a couple of reaction strike 8" hudd copys cause they were cheaper than the real deals. I have since given them away because they didnt compare to the Hudd. That cost Ken a few bucks. I'd prolly have 10 - 8" hudds by now but I only have 2.

Scott Shambre · Post by **Scott Shambre** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:20 pm

MARK INMAN wrote:I got and matt take bill to court stop the madness !

It would end it a tie Mark.........

BMX Bassin · Post by **BMX Bassin** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:23 pm

Iafrate94505 wrote:I thought LeoGrande Quit Western Bass ????

let me look for the thread.

So what, he's pulling a Brett Favre. Its not his fault he retired too soon.

I heard you got kicked off of here.

and your back

Is that legal sTony???

Darkman · Post by **Darkman** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:48 pm

NaCl wrote:Sorry Darkman, gotta disagree with you.

This is not about business. If it was about "business", the original inventer of ANY significant product would get a patent and sue anyone who infringes, to protect both his design and his market share.

IMHO - the truth is, all these "bass wars" are about EGO! And, it's not surprising, considering that the engine that moves the entire bass fishing community is ego-fueled.

That said, this current "fight" is like watching a bunch of roosters puff up in the barnyard, each one trying to out-puff the other. LOL

perhaps business was a poor choice of words...but you are 100%
correct about ego driven....Rosters puffing up...now that's Perfect