So When Quagga's Hit The Delta ?

Guy Kelley · Post by **Guy Kelley** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:49 am

With all the hype of the Quagga Mussels & Zebra Clams scares in our local waterways and lakes. ( I spent 3 days making my boat clean & dry for C/L for no visual inspection)

I am just wondering when will the musells & clams will be here in our Delta ? I don't think it will be a case of "if" but "when". Considering how many tournaments are run in the Delta, with quite a few open to boaters from infested waters, such as down south and back east.

I don't believe there are any inspections made on boats as they come off water and then brought to the Delta for tournaments and recreation use.

So my question is really about what do you do to make your boat clean and dry before you use it in the Delta ? Or do you ?

Do you think that it is time to do something volunteering to police our selfs, to prevent the infestation to the Delta before it becomes mandatory or is it just a case of waiting for big brother to tell us its to late and they are already here.

Seems to me we are playing with a loaded gun and just waiting for it to go off !?

Cooch · Post by **Cooch** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:04 am

We got more varieties of Mussels & Clams on this river system than all the bodies of water in the state combined! Been here fer ever, hard ta believe that these resident species, are much less of a nuissance than the Quagga or Zebra. A clam is a clam right? They said the Mitten Crab would destroy the Delta too! The Delta is gonna die off, the fisheries will completely vanish because the Delta Smelt is gone.

It's all about paranoia! Pike, Pirahnia, snake heads and gators in California OH MY! I guess the Mississippi is doomed too! Hell, where all doomed!

Enjoy today and life as ya know it!

Jig bite on the River is OFF the hook fellas, git off the damn computers and go have some fun fishing! HAR! HAR! HAR!

Tin Can · Post by **Tin Can** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:19 am

I bet they are already in the Delta. Somehow Zebra mussels got into San Justo. What is more likely? That they came from someone's boat or they came from upstream? Water is pumped from the Delta to San Luis, and from San Luis to San Justo. I just find it hard to believe that San Justo is the only lake that has them.

So to all you So Cal guys who were sending the delta water to, surprise! Have some mussels!

bassindon69 · Post by **bassindon69** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:30 am

Cooch wrote:Jig bite on the River is OFF the hook fellas, git off the damn computers and go have some fun fishing! HAR! HAR! HAR!

We all don't live with water on our back door

How about you go out and call me and give a play by play

Next best thing to being there

Don.

fish_food · Post by **fish_food** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:37 am

Tin Can wrote:So to all you So Cal guys who were sending the delta water to, surprise! Have some mussels!

They're already getting them from the other sources they "obtain" their water from...

Dan McKenzie · Post by **Dan McKenzie** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:28 am

we'll just adapt. farmers and water agencies will have to find the money to keep their water intakes clear, we'll be fishing with 6lb floro cause the water will be gin clear, a fishing license will probably cost us 100.00 bucks or more to help pay for the clean up, but mostly we all will just adapt, just as they have in the mid west and the great lakes region.

Greg_Cornish · Post by **Greg_Cornish** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:33 pm

Cooch wrote:We got more varieties of Mussels & Clams on this river system than all the bodies of water in the state combined! Been here fer ever, hard ta believe that these resident species, are much less of a nuissance than the quagga or zebra. A clam is a clam right? They said the Mitten Crab would destroy the Delta too! The Delta is gonna die off, the fisheries will completely vanish because the Delta Smelt is gone. It's all about paranoia! Pike, Pirahnia, snake heads and gators in California OH MY! I guess the Mississippi is doomed too! Hell, where all doomed! Enjoy today and life as ya know it!

It's all BS. One my return trip to Minnesota, the state that's accused of having an aggressive outreach program on zebra and quagga, nobody knew WTF clean and dry meant. Most never heard of quaggas and when asked about zebra mussel said, "Ya I think I heard something about them."

I think a private group needs to be formed - a fact finding Association. QUIT - Quagga United Investigation Team. It would need to be funded and we could hire our own biologist to tour the nation any survey the good and the bad of the quagga. This is the first thing that the governor should have done, but its better if handled by fishing groups, recreation groups and private industry thats going to be affected. Lets invest the time and find out to truth to adequately predict the future.

All the lakes I used to fish back there are filled to the top with Eurasian Milfoil because of idiots freeing their goldfish and farmers pumping millions of gallons of liquid nitrogen and liquid hog **** into the soil then installing drainage tile in their fields directly into the rivers and lakes to provide excellent fertilizer for the milfoil.

You'll hear them site that Monroe, Michigan was without water intermittently for a year. True, Now everyone around the lake is injecting chlorine into the water at the intakes rather than injecting it all into the storage tanks. They do it at night when usage is low so it doesn't get drawn into the system until it stabilizes. The chlorine kills the adults and veligers and the problem is solved.

You even see a photo of a crayfish and a clam covered with quagga. That's about the most drastic damage I've seen.

There was a claim that the White Fishing industry was "All but decimated." I wrote to the White Fishing Industry and found it to be BS. In small areas in Lake Michigan a primary forage for white fish has disappeared - they think "Maybe" the zebra mussels did it. Now the white fish are eating zebra clams. This has caused weight loss and loss of Omega three fat in the whitefish in these area, but the areas are small.

They also say that 45 billion dollars was spent by Michigan a year to control zebra and quagga. The entire state budget of Michigan is 46 Billion and less than a million was spent on quagga and zebra mussel control. That leaves municipalities and private industry along the shore to make up the 45 billion. That never happened. It was a mistruth passed down the chain of command. The bottom of the chain still believes it. Would you if your employer told you it was fact? They cannot site who gathered these facts and these figures. Ask them where they get their data

What they should be doing is spending their time and money equipping their water plants to inject chlorine at the entrance to their pipes, or at least drawing up plans, because the quagga are coming.

However if you believe what I believe it'll give them the excuse, "The quagga are here because the fisherman didn't buy in to our hysteria." Its a no-win situation.

BassManDan · Post by **BassManDan** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:36 pm

Nice rant Greg, lots of good points.

According to any given environmental source, there is always something out there to destroy our ecosystems and cause huge problems for the world, and if a few little Bivalves are the big problem, we're doing pretty damn good!

An aside...
There's a whole lot of science out there that we don't have the best handle on but someone has to make it into a big thing (isn't there some thing on the tv about this "Global Warming" that people should be concerned about, yeah the world's temps are going up, and yeah, maybe people have somethin to do about it, but there are also these cool things called "Ice Ages" which fluctuate over geologic time, perhaps the Globe is causing Global Warming!

there's my brief rant for the day!

Thanks, I'm here all week.

BassManDan

jimmy87 · Post by **jimmy87** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:23 pm

it is mostly bull turds if you ask me.
Look at lake casitas. The people in the area now have a private lake. They like it!!!! I think it is more about control and special interest than a real threat of mussells doing signifacant damge to the enviroment or water passage.
Besides that how the hell is a boat going to transport the thing in a few drops of water? Boats are turned away where inspections are done due to moisture from an ice chest that leaked.

Are we really that damn LAME. come on people. if a couple drops of water from a boat can infect a water way how in the world are you going to stop an infestation anyway?

DFG says to be sure and wash your dog if it swam in a lake before you take it to another body of water.
if a dog can move the mussell what about all the other animals?
birds, coons, oposums, deer, rabbits, coyotes and so on.

so for anyone to buy into this bs is beyond me.

Guy Kelley they sure have you fooled dont they?
to think your boat is going to cause the water way to be infected with a mussell.
LMAO

tunaman · Post by **tunaman** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:30 pm

jimmy87 wrote:I think it is more about control and special interest than a real threat of mussells doing signifacant damge to the enviroment or water passage.

Actually, the real impact is going to be the cost of maintenance for the water delivery facilities... they can clog a 24" pipe in a couple of weeks.

Besides that how the hell is a boat going to transport the thing in a few drops of water?

Google "quagga" and "veliger"

Are we really that damn LAME. come on people. if a couple drops of water from a boat can infect a water way how in the world are you going to stop an infestation anyway?

We're not... they're only trying to slow the spread. Anyone thinking anything else is just fooling themselves.

Roger

Dewayne · Post by **Dewayne** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:11 pm

Talking to some of the anglers who went there this spring they had some pretty jaw dropping stories of the amount of Quagga mussles they saw. Reefs that two year earlier were clean were completly covered with the things. Maybe they will be like the Mitten Crabs and boom for a few years then subside to managable numbers as the ecosystem adapts. Either way we would at least be in for several years of pain and costs.

They infest the Delta and te costs will be huge. While Clorine may kill them, it does not eliominate their shells. Any boat that could not be lifted or removed from the water would suffer from reduced cooling flow and blow up/overheat within a year. Imagine the cost of getting the cooling system cleaned alone. Oh yea, the hydro hoists fill with water, better keep that ;pipe clean also or it will clog. Then there is the costs for the water districts that feed from the Delta.

Sorry, I take the issue seriously. Even when leaving Clear Lake or Lake Pardee (Last weekend) I drain/dry everything and try to let the boat/trailer dry out for at least a week before launching on a new waterway. The truth is we do not know what waterways are infected and we should act as if all are infested except the one we are launching into next. It's pretty simple to limit the danger and we should all make it standard operating procedure. It would also help if we did not have tournament organizations scheduling tournaments on Mead or Havasu then heading directly to non-known infested waterways.

While infestation is not the end of the world, it is something we should avoid or work to delay. It's not that hard to practice safe boating whether it be wearing a life vest or keeping our boats clean and dry.

jimmy87 · Post by **jimmy87** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:22 pm

I have googled and read all about the micorsopic larva.
its a bunch of crap.
your missing my point that if it only takes a drop of water to spead the thing then we are doomed boats or not.

are we going to wash all the critters before they enter the water?

tunaman · Post by **tunaman** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:02 pm

tunaman wrote:
Are we really that damn LAME. come on people. if a couple drops of water from a boat can infect a water way how in the world are you going to stop an infestation anyway?
We're not... they're only trying to slow the spread. Anyone thinking anything else is just fooling themselves.

Roger

Ummm... what part of this didn't you understand???

If everyone does their part to be clean and dry, then the movement will be slowed considerably. If everyone just gives up and doesn't give a crap, then it is a foregone conclusion that will happen sooner rather than later. Having been through the BS at Casitas and living through the inspections down here now, I choose the former and will do my part to slow the invasion and spread the word. Do what you feel is right.

Roger

mark poulson · Post by **mark poulson** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:56 am

Roger's right.
We, as Bass fisherman, have to make the effort, or we'll be blamed for the mussel's spread.
There are enough idiots (PETA) waiting in line to ban fishing, tournament fishing, and all forms of water recreation as it is. We don't need to give them any ammunition.
DFG knows it's just a matter of time, but they have to put up a good front, too, or all the blame will fall on them.
The State hasn't come up with an overarching water protocol because then they'd be responsible ($) for it's implementation. And they'd be on the hook when it failed, and water systems were infected.
Local water districts are elected, so they're just trying to look good to get reelected. They're not going to say we need to spend our own money to set up treatment protocols and facilities because the mussels are coming.
No one is going to take responsibility for stopping the mussels because their spread is inevitable, and no one wants to be financially responsible for the abatement/treatment measures.

Dewayne · Post by **Dewayne** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 8:20 am

What protocols are in place to keep the fire helecopters and water drop planes from spreading them?

All we can do is do our part. It's not that difficult to ensure that your boat does not have a drop of water on it when moving between lakes as long as you leave time and make an effort to dry live wells/leave them open, pull plug and drain before leaving the lake, and lower the lower unit and allow it to drain. If we do not take this serious then the other option is for the lakes not infested to be closed. I expect we will see more of that in the future, but our attitude towards helping prevent the spread may help prevent all out closures. Remember water is gold here in CA and when presented with fishing or huge increases in the cost to supply water we will loose. It is up to us to some extent to let it be know that we are doing our part to protect the resource.

Guy Kelley · Post by **Guy Kelley** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:56 am

[quote="Dewayne"]What protocols are in place to keep the fire helecopters and water drop planes from spreading them?

All we can do is do our part. It's not that difficult to ensure that your boat does not have a drop of water on it when moving between lakes as long as you leave time and make an effort to dry live wells/leave them open, pull plug and drain before leaving the lake, and lower the lower unit and allow it to drain. If we do not take this serious then the other option is for the lakes not infested to be closed. I expect we will see more of that in the future, but our attitude towards helping prevent the spread may help prevent all out closures. Remember water is gold here in CA and when presented with fishing or huge increases in the cost to supply water we will loose. It is up to us to some extent to let it be know that we are doing our part to protect the resource.[/quote]

Thanks Dewayne ;

At least a couple of you took it serious enough to answer the question with a straight up reply, rather than just say why worry about it cause we have plenty of problems in the delta and like piranha's, pike and mitten crabs.

The problems we have in OUR DELTA are not going to go away just because we cover our self in a blanket and wish it so , nor will they if we rely on Big Brother to do it for us ! Anorld will have a new Canal around the Delta before he is finished as Govenator !!

Its time , don't ya think ? to take matters into our own hands and rely on are self to Keep em Clean and Dry.

Greg_Cornish · Post by **Greg_Cornish** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:47 am

Dewayne wrote:Any boat that could not be lifted or removed from the water would suffer from reduced cooling flow and blow up/overheat within a year.

Since this hasn't happened anywhere else on earth, why would it happen in California? You mentioned people seeing Quagga.... where is here?

Dewayne · Post by **Dewayne** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 3:29 pm

Mead has a huge infestation. Talking to Jimmy Reese he was blown away at the numbers that he saw there this year when two years ago you could not find them. He said he saw a reef that was completely covered in the things.

It was posted here last year that their tour boats had already had problems with the cooling systems cloging. Would be interesting to talk to the mechanics for Forever Resorts to see if it is affecting their houseboats.

Here is a pretty good (LONG) article. Note the comments at the end, one from a Mead boat owner who's boat is having Quagga issues.
http://www.hcn.org/issues/341/16861

Not sure where you are getting info that no one is having issues.

macinckirk · Post by **macinckirk** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:23 am

Cooch wrote:We got more varieties of Mussels & Clams on this river system than all the bodies of water in the state combined! Been here fer ever, hard ta believe that these resident species, are much less of a nuissance than the Quagga or Zebra. A clam is a clam right? They said the Mitten Crab would destroy the Delta too! The Delta is gonna die off, the fisheries will completely vanish because the Delta Smelt is gone. It's all about paranoia! Pike, Pirahnia, snake heads and gators in California OH MY! I guess the Mississippi is doomed too! Hell, where all doomed! Enjoy today and life as ya know it!

Jig bite on the River is OFF the hook fellas, git off the damn computers and go have some fun fishing! HAR! HAR! HAR!

Cooch are you saying that the Bite is so good I should drive up from Victorville for a few days to do some Jig fishing

Greg_Cornish · Post by **Greg_Cornish** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:36 am

tunaman wrote: Actually, the real impact is going to be the cost of maintenance for the water delivery facilities... they can clog a 24" pipe in a couple of weeks.

Roger

I'd like to see the data backing this up.

tunaman · Post by **tunaman** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:12 am

Greg_Cornish wrote:
tunaman wrote: Actually, the real impact is going to be the cost of maintenance for the water delivery facilities... they can clog a 24" pipe in a couple of weeks.

Roger
I'd like to see the data backing this up.

Well, better yet why don't you call Rick Francis of the DFG - he's stationed at the Blythe office (phone number is (760) 922-1738) - I'm sure he'd be glad to educate you on just how prolific they are, since they deal with them on a daily basis. You could also call Mike Giusti, or just send him a PM here, if you are truly wanting to educate yourself.

Also, here's some good links to get you started:

Impact of Quaggas on Lake Michigan:
http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=423678
DFG's Fact Sheet:
http://www.nrm.dfg.ca.gov/FileHandler.a ... entID=3878
FAQ:
http://www.nrm.dfg.ca.gov/FileHandler.a ... entID=3879

I'm trying to find some of the images I've seen previously, when first educating myself, of the large pipes nearly completely clogged with mussels, and if I can locate them I'll post them here.

Bottom line is that this is a very serious issue, as bad as it is being made out to be, and anyone who doubts this is ignorant of the facts and needs to take the time to educate themselves.

Roger

tunaman · Post by **tunaman** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:22 am

Not a 24" pipe, but here's a photo of a cross-section cutout fully-clogged:

They generate up to 1 million mussels each per year, so it doesn't take much imagination to understand how impactful it will be once they gain a foothold.

Roger

Greg_Cornish · Post by **Greg_Cornish** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:08 pm

tunaman wrote:Not a 24" pipe, but here's a photo of a cross-section cutout fully-clogged:

They generate up to 1 million mussels each per year, so it doesn't take much imagination to understand how impactful it will be once they gain a foothold.

Roger

I've seen that photo a hundred times and always wondered why a pipe would be in such pristine shape on the outside and so clogged on the inside. Zebra and quagga don't prefer the inside of pipes as far as I know. They hang on to any surface. I've never seen any really good photos of damage. I have seen a lot of very expensive equipment with scientist funded by grants, studying them on expensive ship. Good solid evidence can't be that hard to photograph.

Greg_Cornish · Post by **Greg_Cornish** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:23 pm

tunaman wrote:Well, better yet why don't you call Rick Francis of the DFG - he's stationed at the Blythe office (phone number is (760) 922-1738) - I'm sure he'd be glad to educate you on just how prolific they are, since they deal with them on a daily basis. You could also call Mike Giusti, or just send him a PM here, if you are truly wanting to educate yourself.

Because I don't think they know a damned thing about it other than what's fed to them. And the stuff they are getting is a lot of bull. I'm writing to people on the great lakes like people in the white fishing industry.

Ronald E. Kinnunen wrote:Greg,
I have been involved with a study on Lake Michigan whitefish which has focused on their condition. The lake whitefish in the Great Lakes has not collapsed. It still remains our main commercial fishery. Check out our web site: http://www.greatlakeswhitefish.com
In some areas of Lakes Michigan and Huron the major food source for lake whitefish has collapsed--diaporia which is like a small shrimp that lives on the bottom of the lakes. Some feel the disappearance of diaporia may be related to the invasion of zebra and quagga mussels. Since diaporia have disappeared the lake whitefish has turned to other food sources such as small zebra and quagga mussels which is not the best diet. This has resulted in changes to the lake whitefish fatty acid composition. The desirable omega-3 fatty acids have dropped in lake whitefish from these areas. The growth and condition of lake whitefish has dropped off but the population has not collaped and there still is a viable commercial fishery.
We have well over 100 inland lakes infested with zebra mussels in the state of Michigan. This has not been due to lack of public outreach of which I am a part of. With our 3200 miles of Great Lakes shoreline in Michigan it is not hard to imagine the movement of boats and fish gear from the Great Lakes to inland lakes. To compare this to Minnesota where the only Great Lake they have is Lake Superior. And zebra and quagga mussels do not do well in this lake because of the lack of substantial phytoplankton for food and also the low calcium levels needed to build their shells. So I don't think that Minnesota can claim that they have a better outreach program than we do in Michigan. Look at a map and you can see the difference between these two Great Lakes states. Most of our zebra mussels are in Lakes Erie, Huron, and Michigan. So our chances of an inland lake invasion are much greater than Minnesota can even realize.
Hope this helps.
Ron

All the local info I have received has at best been a stab at the truth.

This letter was in response to a post that

1. The reason Minnesota wasn't infected was of because of a wonderful public outreach. Minnesota has very little public outreach.

2. The Whitefishing Industry had all but collapsed

Guy Kelley · Post by **Guy Kelley** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 4:48 pm

[quote="Greg_Cornish"][quote="tunaman"]Well, better yet why don't you call Rick Francis of the DFG - he's stationed at the Blythe office (phone number is (760) 922-1738) - I'm sure he'd be glad to educate you on just how prolific they are, since they deal with them on a daily basis. You could also call Mike Giusti, or just send him a PM here, if you are truly wanting to educate yourself.
[/quote]
Because I don't think they know a damned thing about it other than what's fed to them. And the stuff they are getting is a lot of bull. I'm writing to people on the great lakes like people in the white fishing industry.

[quote="Ronald E. Kinnunen"]Greg,
I have been involved with a study on Lake Michigan whitefish which has focused on their condition. The lake whitefish in the Great Lakes has not collapsed. It still remains our main commercial fishery. Check out our web site: http://www.greatlakeswhitefish.com
In some areas of Lakes Michigan and Huron the major food source for lake whitefish has collapsed--diaporia which is like a small shrimp that lives on the bottom of the lakes. [b]Some feel the disappearance of diaporia may be related to the invasion of zebra and quagga mussels[/b]. Since diaporia have disappeared the lake whitefish has turned to other food sources such as small zebra and quagga mussels which is not the best diet. This has resulted in changes to the lake whitefish fatty acid composition. The desirable omega-3 fatty acids have dropped in lake whitefish from these areas. The growth and condition of lake whitefish has dropped off but the population has not collaped and there still is a viable commercial fishery.
We have well over 100 inland lakes infested with zebra mussels in the state of Michigan. This has not been due to lack of public outreach of which I am a part of. With our 3200 miles of Great Lakes shoreline in Michigan it is not hard to imagine the movement of boats and fish gear from the Great Lakes to inland lakes. To compare this to Minnesota where the only Great Lake they have is Lake Superior. And zebra and quagga mussels do not do well in this lake because of the lack of substantial phytoplankton for food and also the low calcium levels needed to build their shells. So I don't think that Minnesota can claim that they have a better outreach program than we do in Michigan. Look at a map and you can see the difference between these two Great Lakes states. Most of our zebra mussels are in Lakes Erie, Huron, and Michigan. So our chances of an inland lake invasion are much greater than Minnesota can even realize.
Hope this helps.
Ron [/quote]

All the local info I have received has at best been a stab at the truth.

This letter was in response to a post that

1. The reason Minnesota wasn't infected was of because of a wonderful public outreach. Minnesota has very little public outreach.

2. The Whitefishing Industry had all but collapsed[/quote]

Greg;

i know your Heart is in the right place, for your concern over the Mussel situation and it's potential harm to our River and Lakes.

Personally I feel its in your best interest to be a doubting Thomas to what is being published in the media as well as else were. What you ask for is proof that you can see with your own eyes !!

I am by no means a expert or scientist , only a concerned fisherman who has watched our Delta being decimated over the years by the self serving interest of Aggi-business and the water exporters who are delivering northern California water to the South at subsidized rates to subsidized farmers. We pay more per Acre foot for irrigation water on our farms in Brentwood than the ones who get the subsidized water from the Federal and State water projects in Tracy. And we are only 5 miles or less from the source of our intake for our irrigation water.

I have seen what the introduction of elodea and hyicen has done to the Delta over the years as well as the what the elodea problem has ment to Clear Lake as well.

When the Mitten Crab was introduced here, The population took off at a rate that was incredible. But for some reason it collapsed. Why I don know, as I said I 'am not a scientist. I can only guess to the reasons.

But the mussel problem is a different matter altogether. Yes we have clams in the delta as well as you do in Clear lake ! As well as other introduced species. Most have adapted to the natural environment and have found a sustainable niche for them selves. I would venture that some have even made the Delta and Clear Lake a better environment that what it was before .

But I don't see how if the mussels & clams we are talking about could be of any benefit at all, if and when they get a foot hold here at Clear lake or else were. Just from there ability to filter water, eat microorganisms and breed at enormous rates ! I think if it really becomes serious, The food chain will probably collapse and crash, and we can kiss fishing as we know it good buy.

Too me if what is being said about them is only half true its too much !

Greg_Cornish · Post by **Greg_Cornish** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:11 pm

Guy Kelley wrote:But I don't see how if the mussels & clams we are talking about could be of any benefit at all, if and when they get a foot hold here at Clear lake or else were. Just from there ability to filter water, eat microorganisms and breed at enormous rates ! I think if it really becomes serious, The food chain will probably collapse and crash, and we can kiss fishing as we know it good buy.

Too me if what is being said about them is only half true its too much !

I don't think the food chain will collapse and crash. The fishing in Lake Erie is incredible, The Northern Pike and Walleye pike are plentiful and better than ever. There will be changes though. Changes I probably won't like either, However I can't stand California science with everyone walking around with their noses up the Sierra Club's ***. The Sierra Club who demanded oxygenates like MTBE in gas and forces us to burn coal for power and won't let good science manage forests and fires. GRRRRR Now I'm ranting.

I understand what your saying though. If I heard the truth and good science though I'd jump on board a hell of a lot faster. I should put in a signature, "The Quagga Are Coming, Be Prepared." But no, everyone will wait until the pipes plug so they can say, "See? I TOLD YOU!" Rather than get ready to keep them from plugging the pipes. Then the finger pointing will start and the politicians can blame each other.

OK I'm Done.

jimmy87 · Post by **jimmy87** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:29 pm

Boat inspections and closing lakes will NOT stop the mussell from spreading. its that simple.

how about we just get it over with and close all the lakes to boating and then reopen when they find mussells in the future any way.
thats what you guy want to do so lets go for it.

just another freedom lost for us. No big deal.

I have spoken with many people aournd the US who deal with the guagga mussell. They do not impose the stupid rules we have here. Some of the lakes give out tickets if they do not see you cleaning and drying your boat when you leave but thats about it.

what they are doing to us here is criminal.

boats or not, the mussell will find a way into the water if it is to happen.
but go ahead and keep on blaming it on your bass boat.
never mind all the animails that move around.
never mind that all the water in this state is pretty well a chain of drainage. lake feeds another witch feeds another and fianly ends up in the sea.
I suppose current and things that live in the water such as cray fish can not move the mussell.

it is our boats that are the problem Right?

I love all of you educated idiots that know mankind is the dooms day of the entire earth and all that lives on it.

thus the reason it is better to keep us off the water instead of searching for an answer to control and limit the problem.

Greg_Cornish · Post by **Greg_Cornish** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:46 pm

jimmy87 wrote:..........what they are doing to us here is criminal..........

I just got off they phone with my brother in law in New York State. He lives on Lake Ontario, fishes Ontario and Lake Erie and my wife's mother lives on Lake Canandaigua in the Finger Lakes area.

I asked, "Jerry, what do you know about the quagga mussel?"

He said, "I've never heard of quagga mussels in the Great Lakes, but I know quite a bit about the zebra mussel so I'll tell you about that. When we first heard of them 10 years ago they predicted gloom and doom. They said that the environment would be ruined, our fisheries would be decimated and all the intakes around the lake would be clogged up. They told us our Cattail beds and our Purple Loose Strife plants would be killed. These are major filtration plants for our local lakes. So we were very concerned"

"Well they came on big time and suddenly they were everywhere! But they hit their peak. Our water went from clear to gin clear then they died off. There's not enough food for them. Now they are just part of the ecosystem."

I asked, "What about the fisheries?"

He said, "Well the bass fisheries have greatly improved both the Smallmouth and Largemouth populations are way up. Lake Eries Walleye population is incredible and Northern Pike fishing in the lakes they are in has all improved."

I asked, What about your water supply?

He said, "You know, there was never a problem. Now I don't know if they chlorinated the intakes or not, I'm not up on that but the water supply was never interrupted and the big hoopla over it just died."

I asked if he'd heard if it had run its course.

He said, "Its reached its peak, yes."

I asked, "What about the Cattails and the other plant you mentioned?"

He said, 'The Purple Loose Strife? They were damaged and took a little hit from the zebra mussel, but there are plenty still around. They are fewer in number but they are on the mend."

I said, "Did they completely kill off the native species like crustaceans and clams?"

Jerry said, "Oh no, not at all. They are in all the finger lakes. Jeremy (his son) and I fish Conesus (Ko Nee Shus) all the time and they have a healthy crawdad and native clam population there. They didn't harm the crawdad population."

I said, "What about the public outreach there. Do you make sure everything is clean and dry, do you have inspections?"

He said, "No, inspections wouldn't do any good. If they are in your state already they are going to be in all your lakes, there's nothing you can do. We keep everything clean and dry but a thimble full of water is all it takes. There were signs at the launches and around lakes, but even lakes that see no boat traffic and have no fish in them have zebra mussel in them. (some shallow lakes do not have fish because they freeze out) Animals spread them too."

I was simply amazed. Its the same all over the north. This is what people say. But hey with quagga comes grant money and new budgets and another way to tax you.

jimmy87 · Post by **jimmy87** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:20 pm

same story I get from friends up that way.

We are surronded by doom and gloomers not to mention political bungholes.
the majority of the people buy into whatever they say.
Scar tactics have been used for many years to contol us and meet political agendas with no reguard to our freedom or rights.

when you use common sence you loose. what makes people think that clean and dry boats will stop the spread?

I am still waiting to hear who is going to be in charge of clean and dry wild animals? I do not think it will be Yogi Bear. hes to busy with picinic baskets. Bullwinkle might be up for the task.
what about sponge bob?
yeah sponge bob would have better ideas than the crap we are putting up with.
anyone want to explain to me how we will keep the elk from swiming acoss the river at grizzly island?
or the deer at lake comanche that swim to the island and then go visit pardee just up the way?
oh wait a minute those lakes are conected by a thing called a river that moves the water to the next lake.
then guess what?
that water ends up in the delta.
Gee.......
can some educated person explain how inspecting our boats will prevent the spread?

jimmy87 · Post by **jimmy87** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 8:44 pm

Greg
they are worried about the mussell in Ca because we do not freeze.
they say the cold kills them.

Greg_Cornish · Post by **Greg_Cornish** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:26 pm

jimmy87 wrote:Greg
they are worried about the mussell in Ca because we do not freeze.
they say the cold kills them.

It don't get much colder in winter than where they come from. Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, and Ubekistan. The Great Lakes and the Finger Lakes rarely ever freeze over.

tunaman · Post by **tunaman** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:28 am

Actually, the zebra mussels are affected by cold, but the quaggas aren't. That appears to be one of the reasons that the quaggas are supplanting the zebra mussels in the Great Lakes.

Speaking of which, I'm not sure when the last time you looked at a map, but the scale of those lakes as compared to anything in California can't compare... Our waterways are but a drop in the bucket compared to the Great Lakes and are thus much more fragile. They will feel the effects of an adverse change much more quickly.

The Great Lakes region had to install redundant pipelines for their water delivery systems, to be able to mitigate the impact of the mussels. Few, if any, of our State's water delivery systems are set up in the manner. Who do you believe is going to end up paying for that, or any other measures decided upon? How much do you think it is going to cost us?

Believe as you will... I'm not going to beat my head against the wall trying to sway your opinions either way. All I know for sure is that it has had an adverse impact on some of the lakes that I like to recreate on down here, and I believe that impact will spread to many of the other bodies of water throughout the state before its all said and done. I myself choose to do what I can to help prevent the spread and minimize the adverse impact to those recreational facilitiies. By being responsible, the decision-makers have options other than complete closure. By demonstrating irresponsible behavior it just fuels the fire and lets the ignorant in power exercise their knee-jerk reactions (search for Baggerly and Casitas on the Southern forum for examples) to restrict and limit your recreational alternatives.

Roger

Oh, and I was unable to find the material regarding the 24" pipes, but when I did my initial research I found a site that had some underwater photos from Erie (or one of those lakes) taken by divers doing the periodic cleanup. I'll send a PM if I can find them again.

Greg_Cornish · Post by **Greg_Cornish** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:06 am

tunaman wrote:Actually, the zebra mussels are affected by cold, but the quaggas aren't. That appears to be one of the reasons that the quaggas are supplanting the zebra mussels in the Great Lakes.

Okay, one kind is taking over another.

tunaman wrote:Speaking of which, I'm not sure when the last time you looked at a map, but the scale of those lakes as compared to anything in California can't compare... Our waterways are but a drop in the bucket compared to the Great Lakes and are thus much more fragile. They will feel the effects of an adverse change much more quickly.

Water is water, a gallon of it in the north is the same as a gallon of it in California.

tunaman wrote:The Great Lakes region had to install redundant pipelines for their water delivery systems, to be able to mitigate the impact of the mussels. Few, if any, of our State's water delivery systems are set up in the manner. Who do you believe is going to end up paying for that, or any other measures decided upon? How much do you think it is going to cost us?

Then they should spend their money getting ready to build redundant pipelines.

tunaman wrote:Believe as you will... I'm not going to beat my head against the wall trying to sway your opinions either way. All I know for sure is that it has had an adverse impact on some of the lakes that I like to recreate on down here, and I believe that impact will spread to many of the other bodies of water throughout the state before its all said and done. I myself choose to do what I can to help prevent the spread and minimize the adverse impact to those recreational facilitiies. By being responsible, the decision-makers have options other than complete closure. By demonstrating irresponsible behavior it just fuels the fire and lets the ignorant in power exercise their knee-jerk reactions (search for Baggerly and Casitas on the Southern forum for examples) to restrict and limit your recreational alternatives.

Roger

There's not really anything you can do because you can't stop the spread according to people who see lakes infested that have no fishing or recreation on them. I just got another note from the Whitefishing industry guy that I'll share soon. He says that the diaporia are continuing to disappear in the Great Lakes and shows more concern. He says the main difference between the zebra and quagga is just quagga can exist deeper but zebra are still around.

tunaman wrote:Oh, and I was unable to find the material regarding the 24" pipes, but when I did my initial research I found a site that had some underwater photos from Erie (or one of those lakes) taken by divers doing the periodic cleanup. I'll send a PM if I can find them again.

Just post it.

Dan McKenzie · Post by **Dan McKenzie** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:27 am

Greg,
These are photo's of two different beaches on Lake Erie, in one photo the mussel shells are 3ft thick. Imagine that on Clear Lake or Tahoe.

Greg_Cornish · Post by **Greg_Cornish** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:37 am

Yes, I've seen those, pretty ugly. Well probably see it here in the next ten to twenty years, too. Sooner in Lake Dixon and San Vicente Reservoir in San Diego County and all reservoirs, lakes and watersheds receiving raw Colorado River water that have been exposed to Quagga mussels. We can only hope they hit a peak then stabilize like they did in New York.

Greg_Cornish · Post by **Greg_Cornish** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:48 am

Right now I'm looking for more information on what's happening on the inland waters than I am on the Great Lakes.

mac (Doyle McEwen) · Post by **mac (Doyle McEwen)** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 8:10 am

As with any intentional or unintentional introduction of life forms not normally found in a system, there can be good and bad things that happen..With the mussels and clams currently being discussed what good comes of them is often over looked because of the damage and potential damage they can and do cause..

No doubt there are times the damage is overstated and probably times it is under stated..The biggest problem I see here in California is the complete lack of coordination between the various water districts and how they percieve and handle the threat..

Banning boats from certain counties from some waters might be judicious except the waters that are known to be infested are closed to boats and have been for many months..As is typical of many such situations, the barn door has been closed and now is closely guarded even though the horses have already escaped..

There is no conformity at all in the way each area/district is dealing with the problem..It makes you wonder how the state would react to an epidemic of some new flu bug, except in that case the effort would probably be more coordinated..I don't think we have seen the worst of the "handling methods" yet..

mac

tunaman · Post by **tunaman** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 8:34 am

mac (Doyle McEwen) wrote:Banning boats from certain counties from some waters might be judicious except the waters that are known to be infested are closed to boats and have been for many months..As is typical of many such situations, the barn door has been closed and now is closely guarded even though the horses have already escaped..

mac

Point of clarification... most of the infested lakes in Southern California are still open for business.

Roger

fish_food · Post by **fish_food** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:23 pm

An article from today's Sacramento Bee:

Recreational boaters win reprieve on permits

By M.S. Enkoji - menkoji@sacbee.com
Published 12:00 am PDT Friday, August 1, 2008
Story appeared in MAIN NEWS section, Page A4

Recreational boaters who were set to pay as much as $1,500 in annual fees for a federal environmental permit were spared this week.

A federal ruling filed last year on a California lawsuit said all sailing vessels should be required to participate in a permit process designed to control the influx of foreign marine life.

The permit process was aimed largely at cargo ships, but the ruling said small motorboats, kayaks and other recreational boats should be included.

Boating organizations, such as the Boat Owners Association of the United States, turned to Congress to exempt recreational boaters. A new law was signed by President Bush on Tuesday that excludes recreation boats.

Without the new law, the permit requirements would have included 13 million registered recreation boats nationwide and nearly 900,000 in California, said Scott Croft, a spokesman Boat Owners Association of the United States.

Environmental groups in Oregon and California had sued the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, saying the agency failed to stop the invasion of destructive, foreign marine life, such as zebra mussels in the Great Lakes region and Chinese mitten crabs in the Delta and the Bay Area.

Ships sailing to foreign ports would take on ballast water to stabilize the vessel, then dump the water and the foreign marine life once it arrived in the United States.

The agency is expected to begin issuing permits in September.

BigBoy · Post by **BigBoy** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 4:11 pm

Just a question, if mussels are all over lake Erie and Lake Erie is still one of the best small mouth fisheries in the country what's the problem?

They'll up and down the mississippi, yet the Elites fished 2 events on it with weights going into the 80lbs. What's the issue?

Does It really comes down to the mussels attaching to drains and blocking water, well they've been doing that back East for a decade and people are still getting water, so what's the issue?

Maybe the mussels are another way for the government under a guise of threat to add a tax to the little guy? They don't call it tax, they call it a sticker or license, but it's just another tax.

mark poulson · Post by **mark poulson** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 4:49 pm

Global warming to the rescue!

According to the National Oceanographic Institute, the rising CO2 levels in the atmosphere is raising the level of carbolic acid in the seas as it is absorbed in ever increasing amounts. The increased acidic levels are attacking the shells of corals and bivalves. Even down to the zoo-plankton that supports all life in the sea.
So rising CO2 level will attack the Zebra and Quagga mussels ability to make shells, and, therefore, limit their ability to survive.

How's that for convoluted logic?

photon · Post by **photon** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:18 pm

Convoluted or not.....bring on GW!

jimmy87 · Post by **jimmy87** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 8:24 pm

Looks like I am in for a long wait for an answer to what is going to stop the animals from moving the mussell around.

none of you smart guys know or what?

Dave Wilson · Post by **Dave Wilson** » Sat Aug 02, 2008 5:24 am

In answer to a couple of questions stated in earlier in posts on this thread:

1- helicopters that transport water to put out fires must show proof of decontamination before pulling water from Lake Casitas: Decontamination is available at the Forestry station at Station Canyon on the North/ West boundary of the watershed area.

2- Although it is theoretically possible for animals to carry veligers( free- swimming larvae), it must be demonstrated to exist before anyone will get very concerned. Aquatic encrusted animals are a threat though.

3- I'm sure some are happy that Lake Casitas is difficult to enter with your boat, but as a local, I'm not. I wish the state had done more, and was doing more.

4- Most research is done by schools with massive funding by power plants- as they need lots of water. Some Biological controls are being introduced and tested, but probably won't be allowed in the wonder state run by the governator.

jimmy87 · Post by **jimmy87** » Sat Aug 02, 2008 10:09 am

where when and how was it demostrated that a boat with just a few oz of water found in the bilge had veligers in it?

I can see if one shows up with a boat that is carrying a well full of water, or the hull is so dirty it is clear that the boat had been berthed for a very long time.

those of us who show up in a boat the we keep clean, take off the water after each us are not the problem.

Greg_Cornish · Post by **Greg_Cornish** » Sat Aug 02, 2008 11:01 am

jimmy87 wrote:where when and how was it demostrated that a boat with just a few oz of water found in the bilge had veligers in it?

I have a huge pdf file that contains all that info. I'll try to find it

jimmy87 · Post by **jimmy87** » Sun Aug 03, 2008 11:15 am

Dave Wilson wrote:In answer to a couple of questions stated in earlier in posts on this thread:

2- Although it is theoretically possible for animals to carry veligers( free- swimming larvae), it must be demonstrated to exist before anyone will get very concerned. Aquatic encrusted animals are a threat though.

Birds digest lead shot so we are told.
then we would assume that they will digest the smaller mussells. in fact we are told certain birds eat the mussell.
in doing so you dont think that a bird milling around in mussell infested waters could fly to another body of water and drop some there? what about these aquaitc birds that dive and feed off weed beds? hmmmmmmmm Gee I do not think I am suppose to think about these things am I?

DFG even tells us that our dogs can transport the stupid thing.
if that is the case I am certain a deer and like animals can do the same.
think about this, a deer swims across a lake in a rain storm. (it happens I have seen it a few times). The rain keeps the animal wet for a few days. during this time the animal enters another body of water.
This can be the case with MANY animals including beavers, muskrats, weasles, racoons, coyoteys, just to mention a few of MANY.

but what do I know? 2+2 dose not always= 4

do not take me the wrong way. I understand that this is a problem we need to solve. Somthing needs to be done.
Putting the blame on recrational boating is not the answer.

mac (Doyle McEwen) · Post by **mac (Doyle McEwen)** » Sun Aug 03, 2008 12:27 pm

The problem with assuming any animal can transfer the offending pest is that most wild animals, with the exception of birds, rarely travel far from their home ground (where they were born)..Now this is especially true of fur bearing creatures..Of course it is possible, they can transfer the clams/musssels from one body of water to another, especially if both bodies of water are within their normal natural range..Of course the natural range of an animal may change due to lack of prey/forage or water within their nomal ranges (areas they cover searching for food/water or mates) or in case of fires or natural events such as flooding or drought..

Is it possible for a deer or coyote to tranfer these pest, yes it is possible, just not as likely as some would want to believe..I think it would be more likely for a bird to transfer them, but even then there is no positive proof of this..Knowing even a very small amount of water is capable of holding the immature pests we should all easily grasp the concept of possible transfer by boats and other water craft..It would be virtually impossible to eliminate all the possible sources of contamination, I doubt anyone would buy the wholesale slaughter of the various wild animals that could possibly transfer the mussels/clams, so that leaves us with making a concerted effort to reduce the possible contamination by watercraft..

I know most think this is a possible total waste of effort and time, but it is a step well worth considering..

mac

Fishing Joe · Post by **Fishing Joe** » Sun Aug 03, 2008 12:35 pm

We know our boats can carry them. Most of us keep them clean and dry. But now whats to say a bird like a cormarant or a duck can or can't carry them in thier down feathers from lake to lake???

Guy Kelley · Post by **Guy Kelley** » Sun Aug 03, 2008 2:15 pm

From the sound of it . I am a idiot to even be worrying about the potential of a Mussel infestation in the Delta or else ware ?

Why ? Because it's media hype or the DFG said it so or the State or Federal government said we have a potential for problems in the near future.

What a load of crap !

I personally don't give a dam one way or the other if the pumps or pipe inlets at the Tracy pumping station or the Delta Mendota Canal become infested with clams or mussels. The water hyican and mitten crabs did a pretty good job of it at the time and some how they (The pumpers ) were able to work around the problem !

What my concern is for the Delta and the condition that it already is in !

Millions of dollars have already been spent on worthless study's by various government organization to date to tells us we have a problem. But it has always been about spending money on study's and nothing has ever been done about it except to form more worthless panels of government red tape on more study to do nothing about the existng problems we are experiencing in the Delta right now, not next week or next year but TODAY.

The only thing I see is that some how the West side has found a way to pump more water south . See Secret Deals Made, posted on the forum this week.

I toughly believe that with very little effort the Delta as we know it will drastically change with-in the next ten years. If the mussels get a foot hold, the slide will be even be faster and worse than it is now !!

It has been 40 years since the pumps have started and I have seen the delta turn into pretty much what i feel is a toilet bow for water exports south so the ones who benefited the most (agri-business) can have cheap water at our as well as the Delta's expense.

Some of you think its just a wast of time and I am a fool to be concerned about it in the first place. Well if i am fool. What dose that make you ? Do you honestly think that by doing nothing that the problem will just magically go away by itself or never exist ?

You ever hear about Davis Lake and the problems with introduced Pike ?. Yes there were problems about the way DFG went about trying to get a hold of the fish eradication , but something was done !

There was some mad man with a bucket of pike releasing them in to the lake in the first place and keep doing it, that started the problem. We have fire arsonist doing the same thing. setting fires to get there rocks off over it !

Why not a deranged individual with a bucket full of clams or musells headed for a lake near you or the Delta !?

You can do something about the potential of our Delta be so changed in the next 10 or 20 years that it becomes un-fishable by the introduction of exotic species, water exportation, and levies erosion, by simply doing your part to keep it clean and dry. and to remain villigent to the potential of some nut job forever changing what your gift to your children and grand children will be.

We pay our taxes. we vote congressmen and government in. We as a group have the power to do something about the way things are.

Or do you think by no action at all that everything will some how turn out ok.

I am not proficiencies doom and gloom or the sky is falling. but I do think it is time we as a powerful form of potential lobbest could have the ability to make changes as we as concerned fisherpersons to protect our sport and lively hood for the sake of our future generations to use and enjoy, or perhaps you just can't or wont see the hand in front of your face. And will just rely on some one else to do it for you and the Delta and the Lakes we in-joy are just for your use today with no worries !?

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