Interesting post about AC team events.

Gary Dobyns · Post by **Gary Dobyns** » Sun Mar 01, 2009 8:14 pm

This whole semi-pro, future pro thing is a little screwed up anyway. There are guys fishing as am's that have won big money, some even as pros. Then they sign up in an amatuer event. The $$ amount keeps changing to keep guys eligible. That's a joke. Here is the bottom line. The fish have no idea if your pro or am. Your 5 fish weighs the same in both pro and am events. You usually make more money fishing the pro side. I don't mean just $$ but the percentages are usually higher. (I will admit I have not reseached this to date, but in years past it was a rip off, IMHO) There's always been ringers in the am events. Many times it takes more weight to win an am event than a pro event. I know a guy that fishes pro in everything and fished am until 2 years ago, when some guys finallt bit**ed about it. Funny thing , he couldn't cut a check in an am event. This splitting pro and am circuits has destroyed our numbers in all team events except Future Pro Tour. Vince just promotes better. Many times the am's fish better than the so-called pro's. Why?? I'm guessing less ego's in the boat, and the am's are probably there to compete but to have FUN. I think the lower entry fee has as much to do with numbers as anything. Guys want to compete but not break the bank. I know many am's that can flat out fish most pro's. Do the pro's have more experience and are better fishermen?? Sometimes. This is called paying your dues. The more you fish, the better you become. I for one would like to see NO AMATUER/PRO events, just teams like the old days.

I know this is directly against what many of you believe, I felt like starting an argument tonight.

I'm outa here!!

Brian · Post by **Brian** » Sun Mar 01, 2009 8:38 pm

I agree with Gary. There should not be any Semi Pro events. The only ones I consider Pro's any way are the ones that dont need a day job to be able to fish.

eagle123777 · Post by **eagle123777** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 5:05 am

cant argue with somethin i agree with and have posted that in the past...now if after i retire in a few years if vince can give me some marketin lessons we can get a 2nd team circut goin thats run like his...

Obi-Hub · Post by **Obi-Hub** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:40 am

Get rid of the Pro, Semi-Pro, Amatuer, etc...etc...just go back to having team tournaments. I think they should just be called "TEAM" tournaments....PERIOD! Two "buddies" show up and fish! If you are worried about who you are fishing against, you have pretty much already lost.

As Gary stated, the fish don't care who is throwing a lure in front of their noses. If you don't think you can compete, Don't! Save yer $$ and continue practicing until you think you can. Practicing in a tournament isn't any better a practice than going out not in a tourney. If the number of participants per events go up, so does the number of people that cut checks (usually). Ya got to pay yer dues...but then again we have become an "instant gratification" society so why shouldn't bass fishing be any different

OK...enough Monday rant!

Obi

tunaman · Post by **tunaman** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:46 am

More rightly referred to as "Boater" and "Non-Boater" anyway... I think there is still room for this level of tournament (Pro/Am format), but am not so sure about the Pro/Semi-Pro designation? If it's a low-cost event designed to attract those who haven't yet achieved, I'm all for it. I don't think they should also be able to enter the simultaneous event, and no way in heck should one bag count for two events.

Roger

Dewayne · Post by **Dewayne** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:25 am

Gary, have you hired an assistant??

This restriction based on earnings deal has a littlle different impact on me. I tend to earn a couple good checks a year and donate at more events than I cash in. I am far from a pro, just a working angler who fishes pro events. The point is, I earn enough to restrict me from these events.

A couple times a year my children decide they want to fish a tournament with dad. For them it is more about seeing what dad does on those weeks he is away from home. We don't pre-fish. They don't fish very hard and they usually impact my ability to fish for a whole day we we are generally donating money, but have a great time fishing together and they get to experience a tournament. We have done a couple Hook tournaments and DQed oursevles because dad is not qualified to fish them. We donated about $800 to WON bass last year fishing the pro teams.

It would be nice if there were exceptions that allowed "pros" to fish these low cost events if they were bringing someone new into the world of competitive bass fishing. Cooch has done this at times and if would probably create some great opportunities for many of the young people who wish to get involved in the sport.

The need for low cost fun events is something we all enjoy. Not to earn a check as mush as for the comoraderie.

Hardshell · Post by **Hardshell** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:08 am

Gary Dobyns wrote:This whole semi-pro, future pro thing is a little screwed up anyway. There are guys fishing as am's that have won big money, some even as pros. Then they sign up in an amatuer event. The $$ amount keeps changing to keep guys eligible. That's a joke. Here is the bottom line. The fish have no idea if your pro or am. Your 5 fish weighs the same in both pro and am events. You usually make more money fishing the pro side. I don't mean just $$ but the percentages are usually higher. (I will admit I have not reseached this to date, but in years past it was a rip off, IMHO) There's always been ringers in the am events. Many times it takes more weight to win an am event than a pro event. I know a guy that fishes pro in everything and fished am until 2 years ago, when some guys finallt bit**ed about it. Funny thing , he couldn't cut a check in an am event. This splitting pro and am circuits has destroyed our numbers in all team events except Future Pro Tour. Vince just promotes better. Many times the am's fish better than the so-called pro's. Why?? I'm guessing less ego's in the boat, and the am's are probably there to compete but to have FUN. I think the lower entry fee has as much to do with numbers as anything. Guys want to compete but not break the bank. I know many am's that can flat out fish most pro's. Do the pro's have more experience and are better fishermen?? Sometimes. This is called paying your dues. The more you fish, the better you become. I for one would like to see NO AMATUER/PRO events, just teams like the old days.

I know this is directly against what many of you believe, I felt like starting an argument tonight. I'm outa here!!

No argument here. Semi-pro, Future-pro or Rookie League no matter what you call it they are killing competitive team bass fishing! As a tournament director I would not expose myself to all the BS accompanied with establishing who is and who is not a "PRO" or an "Amature". Each and every one of these so called "Amature" tournament organizations have different criteria and it's now become a joke! I blame the tournament organizations for the scam and the anglers for allowing themselves to be victimized. If we don't return to the single division format I believe that soon we'll have nothing left to fish.

Sorry, but that's the way I see it.

Hardshell
aka Steve Greene
Tournament Director
US Angler's Choice
Central Valley Region
East Delta Region

Nozmo King · Post by **Nozmo King** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:38 am

Not to be argumentative (Arguing on a web forum? Who would do that?), but even though I havenâ€™t fished one, I like the idea behind â€œrookieâ€

DAN · Post by **DAN** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:41 am

Exactly Steve I am with you on this one! TEAM events should be just that Team events. No ams. semi, future whatever you want to call them, they just dillute the playing field. The whole notion of "I'm fishing these so I don't have to fish against so and so" is bs.

Phil · Post by **Phil** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:45 am

For years I have been reading about the poor rookie! It did not seem to be an issue back in the 80's and early to mid 90's. Why now it is such a issue and problem. Team is a team, you fish against the better, best and move on to the Pro-Am. It seems that is the way it was back then. We all accepted it and some teams like Dobyns Hillock (spell check) Dobyns Barrack (spell check again please. They were beatable, but got better and better more time on the water and moved up the ladder. Some of us stayed down the ladder some.

Agreed , stay with the team concept only, not the rookie statis, and keep the Pro-Am. Which lets the good team member move into the better area as a am or as a Pro.

Make sense ?? Just my .02 $$$$

Phil (Jigs)

Oldschool · Post by **Oldschool** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 12:33 pm

The defination between a pro and am bass fisherman isn't well defined.
Is the sport of tournament fishing your sole source of income? if it is you are considered a professional fisherman. Does being labeled a pro make you a better fisherman or top 10% money winner? you all know the answer to that question.
You have team and draw events with a wide range of different skilled bass fishermen. I think the pro/am open events are good for tournament bass fishing. The economy is what will impact the sport the next few years and you will need the pro-am's who help support the pro's lively hood or the sport may go into the dumpster.
Tom

Mike · Post by **Mike** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:25 pm

DAN wrote:Exactly Steve I am with you on this one! TEAM events should be just that Team events. No ams. semi, future whatever you want to call them, they just dillute the playing field. The whole notion of "I'm fishing these so I don't have to fish against so and so" is bs.

+1

When us old timers started fishing team tournaments, we had to take our lumps for a couple of years before we would start to compete with the big boys. But sometimes we would get the right bites and beat the big boys!! And that felt great and that builds confidence. Now a days these guys can fish semi pro/rookie tournaments for years and years if they dont make to much money. This alone has destroyed team tournaments. Thats the sole reason you dont see 70 80 100 team tournaments anymore. Just think of the kind of money those pots would have. Its a shame...

mark poulson · Post by **mark poulson** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:34 pm

Check out Top Stick Pros and Top Stick Joes.
Two circuts for two levels of fishermen.
Different requirements, different entrys, different payouts.
Opportunitiies for everyone who wants to compete.

Guyle · Post by **Guyle** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:39 pm

mark poulson wrote:Check out Top Stick Pros and Top Stick Joes.
Two circuts for two levels of fishermen.
Different requirements, different entrys, different payouts.
Opportunitiies for everyone who wants to compete.

This is part of the problem not part of the solution.

bassmanwes · Post by **bassmanwes** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:53 pm

I believe what cut the numbers down per-event is the number of circuits we have today. There used to be only a couple like west coast and Won Bass if you wanted to compete you fished those event. Now angler pick and chose which circuit by where and when they have there event and price per event for some. Some fish as many as they can when others can only afford maybe one. Heck the Delta has an event held on almost weekly. The old days maybe once a month.

RMANZO · Post by **RMANZO** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 5:16 pm

this is like e re-run,,,, what it boils down to is they "SUCK"!!!! pure and simple.... get in, take u'r lumps, and eventually you will be the one dishen out the "lumps"

"THEY DEFINETELY HURT THE NUMBERS FOR TEAM EVENTS"!!!!! you cant blame the guys throwing these events..they do it to make $$$$.... look at the one circuit that use to pull all the #'s in the motherlode.it got to be they were only pulling "45-60" teams and it wasn't worth their time anymore... so they left us and are now taking their shot at the so called "rookie" %#$@^%$#

THE FISHERMAN ARE TO BLAME"!! if they are fishing for $$$$,(which i guarantee 90% are) these are the worst paybacks!!!!! when you go to a casino, do you play the penny machines w/grandma just to have fun and risk nothing, nor win much... or do you sit down to the tables w/the big boys and "GAMBLE"??? i have said it on here many times,,,,"once you guys figure out you are fishing against the fish, and not the fisherman, you wont be so sceared

sorry if i pizz anyone off, that is the way i see it(and actually, that is the way it is) "GET RID OF EM

Glenn · Post by **Glenn** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:37 pm

I agree that there are too many circuits and the numbers could be better.

However, I could not disagree more about the need for rookie leagues. I'm just getting started myself and I don't want to fish against Gary Dobyns and Bobby Barrack yet. I hope to someday.

I think the market for rookie leagues has proven that there is a demand for them. Let the new guys have a league to get established and then you can take their money when they move up.

I think the rookie leagues help the sport grow by offering less experienced anglers a place to start and build some experience.

Oh....and go easy on me, I own five Dobyns Rods!

Trackerbass · Post by **Trackerbass** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:21 pm

I think you guys are missing one big factor in this. The amateur tourneys are CHEAP. Yes, there is the intimidation factor, but the bottom line is cost. To use someone else's comparison, where do you see the most players in the casinos? On the cheap slots and low limit tables. You can't blame people for playing what they can afford. It's a great way to start without breaking the bank.The problem as I see it is the guys who become too comfortable at that level and don't want to challenge themselves and move up. Maybe the answer is to limit the number of years you can fish semi-pro?(5)Qualify for 3 TOCs as an AM and you have to move up? The earnings restrictions are too vague. Or maybe change the names of the circuits to expensive/ inexpensive.No pre requisites. Think that would help? I don't. The cheap one will still out draw 3 to 1.

Brian · Post by **Brian** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:40 pm

Trackerbass wrote: The cheap one will still out draw 3 to 1.

If it is just about the cost, Then why not let anyone fish it?

Trackerbass · Post by **Trackerbass** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:12 pm

That's exactly what I mean.No restrictions.Anyone can enter.If you want to play but can't afford to lose,play the nickel slots.If you want to win real money you have to bet real money.

RMANZO · Post by **RMANZO** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:22 pm

all the people at the casinos that are crowding the "cheap" slot machines are the people that "are afraid to win"....low risk, low gain... you should want to fish against guys like gary dobyns and such, then you will see they are just like everyone else, u either catch em or you don't...people keep saying the rookie leagues are the ones that make this sport grow because of the #'s they pull...."NOT"!!!!! when istarted fishing team events over 25 years ago, i had to go against "all" these guys, including the bassmaster champ

it makes you feel good when you compete against these guys.....there were always 80-125 boats at team events, and the sport was growing tremendously then as it is now, there just weren't rookie leagues...... what it boils down to,"IF THESE ROOKIE LEAGUES ARE GOING TO BE LEGIT, THEY NEED TO STICK W/GUIDELINES"!!!!! THERE SHOULD BE NO VARIENCE IN EARNINGS JUST TO KEEP THEIR PARTICIPATION UP!!!!! IF THESE GUYS RUNNING THESE SO CALLED "ROOKIE LEAGUES" ARE DOING THIS TO GROW THE SPORT AND NOT JUST TO PAD THEIR POCKETS, THEN "MAKE" THE GUYS MOVE ON AND BRING IN THE NEXT SET OF "ROOKIES"

tunaman · Post by **tunaman** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:47 pm

You just don't get it... some are in it for the fun. Many aren't looking to make a career out of it, and don't give a rat's azz if they win 100 or 5000, just like the folks you talk down that play the penny slots and such. Many don't have the big bank roll to play with the big dogs, nor do they have the desire... they just want to mix it up and enjoy themselves, and get away from the realities of life for a while.

Roger

Brian · Post by **Brian** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:23 pm

tunaman wrote:You just don't get it... some are in it for the fun. Many aren't looking to make a career out of it, and don't give a rat's azz if they win 100 or 5000, just like the folks you talk down that play the penny slots and such. Many don't have the big bank roll to play with the big dogs, nor do they have the desire... they just want to mix it up and enjoy themselves, and get away from the realities of life for a while.

Roger

Well if that is the case, they should check and see when a tourney is running, go out and fish that same day, then check and see how the compared to the winners without ever entering the tourney. Doesnt cost them any entry fee that way.

kopper_bass · Post by **kopper_bass** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:33 pm

Yeah Guys,
I have to agree with Roger here on this one. The rookie leagues are not hurting the team events, they are just catering to the more available masses - the weekend heros!

There are way more fisherman out there that want to have fun, some good ol' competition, but not be too serious about it. It's still a sport to most of us, not a career!

I dont fish the rookie leagues myself, but i use the Bass Federation as my learning circuit. It fits the exact same mold as the rookie leagues, its just not a team event.

Personally, i think most of the Team circuits have dwindled because they are catering to a small percentage of guys that want big dollars and a semi-career out of team fishing. This small group has also turned into a "locals only" sub group where they only fish 1 body of water all the time. Most of us got tired of seeing that and dont want that anymore.

just my .02

Kopper

Fresno Red · Post by **Fresno Red** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:41 pm

Gary, et al,

Generally agree with you about the Pro/AM team issue. The only other thing I want to mention is for those that aren't up to the Pro level, one of the least expensive and easiest ways to get to that level is thru Club fishing. Clubs usually are reasonably priced and allow newbies exposure to other, sometimes more experienced anglers. Of course, clubs aren't for everyone, but most of us have fished clubs and learned a lot. Also, many clubs hold opens that usually carry a higher entry fee and a corresponding higher payout.

My point being, there probably are too many circuits out there right now for the number of contestants in tough money times, but times will get better. The good circuits will get the play and the weaker ones will go away. That's just the way it is. (Unless the federal govt decides to bail out fishermen too!)

Don't usually post to the forum, but this thread got me to sign up again. I'm the current pres. of the Fresno Bass Club and we are feeling the financial pressure, but we continue putting around 40 boats on the water monthly and run half a dozen opens a year. If we let the dumb *** state rules, PETA, Sierra Club, etc make us quit fishing, the ********'s win, and I just ain't gonna let it happen if I can help it.

End of rant.

BigBoy · Post by **BigBoy** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:52 pm

kopper_bass wrote:Yeah Guys,

Personally, i think most of the Team circuits have dwindled because they are catering to a small percentage of guys that want big dollars and a semi-career out of team fishing. This small group has also turned into a "locals only" sub group where they only fish 1 body of water all the time. Most of us got tired of seeing that and dont want that anymore.

just my .02

Kopper

Exactly, people get smart and see the same names on top on the same lake all the time get smart and stop feeding the machine. If you don't win occasionally you stop donating.

Someone else said there is the expensive vs inexpensive. I agree, the circuit should have the A tourney and the B tourney. Pay more in the A touney the pay back is higher, pay less in the B tourney. But do away with this pro / semi-pro and am / rookie classification.

Someone should come up with a trail where everyones sign up and they randomly pair boater and non-boater shared weight, shared check, same entrance fee. Team tournaments with random partners.....maybe less feeding machine.

Brian · Post by **Brian** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:57 pm

greg_fina wrote:
Someone should come up with a trail where everyones sign up and they randomly pair boater and non-boater shared weight, shared check, same entrance fee. Team tournaments with random partners.....maybe less feeding machine.

That is what Newbie used to do with his NewBass Draws.

Schneider Fishing · Post by **Schneider Fishing** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 10:59 pm

Sorry Gary, I have to disagree with you on this one. ( I guess I won't be on the Dobyns Rods Pro staff any time soon. That was an attempt at humor.) I have a lot of respect for you Gary. I just disagree with you on this one.

There just isn't a single reason why the events don't draw the way they used to.

It's a combination of multiple things (kind of like our economy). Different things for different people.
1. More tournament organizations
2. More events to pick and choose from
3. More clubs
4. More Bass Federation events
5. Higher Entry fees
6. Higher options fees
7. Same names near the top
8. Touring Pros that fish against Ams at Team events
9. Higher paybacks bring out the worst in some people (drama)
10. ETC.

I never thought that a person should be trying to make money fishing team events. I've seen so much drama that it just wasn't fun anymore. So, I don't fish freshwater team events anymore.
I'm having more fun, and paying less money fishing Federation events and Saltwater Bass team events with $50 entry fees. The last saltwater event I fished had over 70 boats and they fed us well afterwards (not you cold burgers and burnt hotdogs).

I'm sure the saltwater team events will continue to be fun until some organization comes along and screws it up by raising fees and making it about the money instead of about the fishing.

IMHO (on the freshwater side) there should be really low cost team events ($100 and a big fish option only) and higher cost pro-team events (big money lots of options around $400 per event or more). Right now all I pretty much see are pro-team events. These events should be on the same day at the same lake and you should only be able to enter one or the other. The fish offs could be run the same way. The low cost events should have off limits and the pro-team events should not have off limits. You fish what you want. The orgs have the higher numbers for sponsors. The guys who do it for the money will have bigger payouts and the low cost folks won't lose their shirts. It won't be any real additional work for the orgs. No additional permits. No additional staff required.

Why not try to meet the needs of the anglers and the sponsors.

Low cost events for those who want to do it for the fun of fishing (without having to join some club).
+
High cost, big money events for those anglers who do it for the money.
=
More folks fishing!!!

This is worth exactly what you paid for it.

Caudawg · Post by **Caudawg** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 6:07 am

Here's how I see it:

White Zinfandel is to the wine industry...
as Rookie leagues are to bass fishing.

mark poulson · Post by **mark poulson** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 6:19 am

With all due respect to Guyle and the other guys who want one format and system, I agree with Schneider.
There are different levels of competitiveness and financial abilities.
Lots of people want to compete, but can't afford to kick out $400.
A lesser entry fee and payout format gives them a chance to participate, learn, and grow.
I miss lakes without tournaments every weekend, but lots more people are fishing, and they love it just as much as the guys who've been doing it for years.
Plus, they are the future of the sport.
Those who win and begin to dominate at the lower levels will want to move up, to test themselves against the best, just like guys who leave here and go fish FLW and BASS.
If they don't have a way to learn and grow, and eventually move up, the more expensive tournament circuts will die from lack of future participation.

Guyle wrote:
mark poulson wrote:Check out Top Stick Pros and Top Stick Joes.
Two circuts for two levels of fishermen.
Different requirements, different entrys, different payouts.
Opportunitiies for everyone who wants to compete.
This is part of the problem not part of the solution.

RMANZO · Post by **RMANZO** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 6:51 am

all this talk about everyone is wanting lower entry fees....and that is what these "rookie" leagues bring to the table..... my base entry for the motherlode aba is $155.... what is the base entry in these "rookie" events??? maybe $50 less.....come on guys...... this subject will go on and on.... another thing,,,, guys are always crying about the zip code fisherman in tourneys.... "EVERY SINGLE EVENT HAS ZIP CODE FISHERMAN...SOMEONE WHO IS ALWAYS FAVORED.... SO CALLED "PRO" FISHERMAN,"ROOKIE" FISHERMAN, WHATEVER...THEY ARE AT ""EVERY"" EVENT..... WETHER IT IS A "PRO" EVENT, "ROOKIE" EVENT, OR JUST GRANDMA PLAYIN' SHUFFLEBOARD, THERE WILL ALWAYS BE DOMINATORS.... also. you guys that "CLAIM" you don't care about winning $$$$,just do it for fun, bullsit!!!!that is just what you have gotten used to

you can still have alot of fun when u'r winnin $$$$$

go join a club..... cheap, alot of fun, win bragging rights

RMANZO · Post by **RMANZO** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 7:03 am

p...s... there are plenty of low entry fee events out there for you guys.... . i do the "POE MANS" @ pedro once a month and it is $100 "all-in"... it is alot of fun, low entry, and 90% payback to 1-in-3.....that is what you guys are wanting and even though the turnouts are good,,, i still have yet to see alot of you coming out to fish......just goes to prove....."YOU WILL NEVER BE HAPPY"!!!
everyone wanted me to do a midweek series, low entry...i said no because the turnout would be bad...i had "15" different teams say they will be there...well i tried it a few times and same ol story, the same "few" teams show up.... low entry. lots of fun, no participATION.... SAME OL STORY..."talk is cheap"!!!!!

kopper_bass · Post by **kopper_bass** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 7:07 am

caudawg,
Now that's funny! Great analogy though and even my wife gets it now.

Kopper

long live the old vine Zins!

tunaman · Post by **tunaman** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 7:51 am

kopper_bass wrote:long live the old vine Zins!

+100000000000!!!

Phil · Post by **Phil** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:29 am

RMANZO wrote:p...s... there are plenty of low entry fee events out there for you guys.... . i do the "POE MANS" @ pedro once a month and it is $100 "all-in"... it is alot of fun, low entry, and 90% payback to 1-in-3.....that is what you guys are wanting and even though the turnouts are good,,, i still have yet to see alot of you coming out to fish......just goes to prove....."YOU WILL NEVER BE HAPPY"!!!
everyone wanted me to do a midweek series, low entry...i said no because the turnout would be bad...i had "15" different teams say they will be there...well i tried it a few times and same ol story, the same "few" teams show up.... low entry. lots of fun, no participATION.... SAME OL STORY..."talk is cheap"!!!!!

Robert, I agree with you and all totally. You have called me on it because I do not fish your cheaper tournaments, as you have noticed, when I do save enough money to fish a tournament, it is a regular ABA , not the cheaper po mans RMANZO tournament. I for one, fish the ones that I can afford if I have the money, and I fish the ones that pay back the money as in the Pro team type ABA, WON, AC , etc..............yet, there is a place and time for the amature tournaments or rookie tournaments. I do agree, they need to be moved up after a year or two max, and not allowed to fish the rookie level...
Just my .02 again
Jigs

crawdaddy · Post by **crawdaddy** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:35 am

I will fall in with the disagree crowd. Everyone fishes for their own reasons and decides which circuit to fish based on them. I like having choices, flexibility is a good thing; right? I do object to the people that don't fish them going on about wanting them to be gone. Gary, if PETA says they want you and all your friends to stop duck hunting because they feel it is wrong what do you say to that? I kinda feel the same way about amateur level tournaments. You sponsor guys that fish in them. Why do you do that if you don't agree with them? Just let everyone make their own choices. Live and let live.

RMANZO · Post by **RMANZO** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:41 am

crawdaddy wrote:I will fall in with the disagree crowd. Everyone fishes for their own reasons and decides which circuit to fish based on them. I like having choices, flexibility is a good thing; right? I do object to the people that don't fish them going on about wanting them to be gone. Gary, if PETA says they want you and all your friends to stop duck hunting because they feel it is wrong what do you say to that? I kinda feel the same way about amateur level tournaments. You sponsor guys that fish in them. Why do you do that if you don't agree with them? Just let everyone make their own choices. Live and let live.

the biggest thing here is.....the directors need to move on a rookie when they have reached that "so called ever changing $$$ earnings limit"!!!! then there won't be any problems,,,"GUARANTEED"!!!!!!!!!

RMARX · Post by **RMARX** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:05 am

This subject always makes me laugh! No matter how you slice it the cause of the lower numbers at team events is all of the different rookie circuits, it does not take a rocket scientist to compare a list from five years ago to one from today. You will see many of the names from the bottom two thirds of the old list have move right over to the bottom two thirds of the new "fair"circuits!! The only difference is all of the "zipcode" teams have been replaced with "sandbagger teams" who are taking advantage of flexible rules to beat up the same bottom two thirds! The organizations do not care because they are in it for the $$, and I do not blame them for that they have to make money and to be honest this was a brilliant strategy marketing toward the guys who do not want to go out and spend time on the water to get better, they want mommy to make it easier for them

!! If we cant get rid of them then put a limit on the number of seasons an angler can fish, after one or two seasons in the mommy league they have to move up! But honestly the best solution is to eliminate all of them and create a low cost no option circuit that everyone can fish and if you want to win then get your butt out on the lake and work at it, mommy can't hold your hand forever!!

RM

meanstick · Post by **meanstick** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:11 pm

Teams r for amateurs draws r for pro ,simple as that.

Brian Ruthman · Post by **Brian Ruthman** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:28 pm

Hey that all sounds like a good idea to limit the number of years you can fish and lower the amount of yearly winnings , why are we all attacking each other and saying get out of the mommy league , that isnt right , guys are just wanting to fish and have fun . Is there a price you have to pay to say your having fun ?
I can tell you this much , i won the first ever Central Valley FPT event at Don Pedro and I also won a 100% Pro team event the other year so i have fished both sides . It was no different winning either of them , winning weight is winning weight , i dont care who would have showed up and fished that day , we beat the fish .

I know for a fact the other year when the WRL teams fished the same day as the 100% Pro teams in the TOC the Rookie league guys whipped up on alot of the pro teams myself included, like mansor said your fishing against the fish .
To say it is the kiddy league or mommy league is totally bogus there are some really good fisherman in these circuits and it does no good to put down other anglers by saying that . Why dont you go to the directors and take the fight there ?
Call up Vince Harris and ask him why he keeps moving up the ammount you can win in a year and still fish the Future Pro . The only circuit i know that closely watches who fishes their events is the WRL they tell guys up front they cant fish not after the fact . Also i know that Anglers choice has moved guys on after they have won anglers of the year .
Please give Vince a call and ask him why he keeps moving his limits up and changing the rules , and please post the response here on the internet for all of us to see .
The whole concept of Future Pro started out with good intentions from what i know , but now it looks like it is just a front to get as many anglers fishing it as possible and keep them fishing their circuit that is why they keep changing their rules and the amount of $$$$ you can win and still fish it .
Why doesnt Vince and all the other rookie league circuits call upon some of the top named Pro's and form a group of anglers to set some guidelines as to what defines Rookie or Pro teams so you dont have every circuit all over the place and a big fight going on about it , guys will go to where they think they got the best chance of winning until there is some guidelines set for all the circuits .

Nozmo King · Post by **Nozmo King** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 1:48 pm

So let me get this straightâ€¦ Is this whole thing the fault of the stupid tournie orgs for offering something to their customers that they like but shouldnâ€™t actually want, or is it the fault of the stupid customers for asking for something they want but donâ€™t really need?

Brian · Post by **Brian** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 1:56 pm

Nozmo King wrote:So let me get this straightâ€¦ Is this whole thing the fault of the stupid tournie orgs for offering something to their customers that they like but shouldnâ€™t actually want, or is it the fault of the stupid customers for asking for something they want but donâ€™t really need?

BOTH

crawdaddy · Post by **crawdaddy** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:05 pm

While fishing semi-pro/future pro tournaments I have learned about tournament fishing. I have learned to ask questions of the directors and when to ask them, I have learned to turn the running lights of the truck off when backing down the ramp, I have learned if I have a late launch number to move to the back of the pack, when to come to the dock with my fish etc..My learing curve would probably have irritated many of the more experienced tournament anglers and maybe even gotten a post on here. You can't really win on this board. The most important thing that will make me a better fisherman is time on the water not who I am fishing against. I would prefer to learn the intricacies of the game at a lighter tuition fee and around people who are mostly learning the game like me. At the tournaments I have fished with "pro" teams those teams are neither helpful nor welcoming. Almost like a secretive society or something. This has not been the case in the Semi-pro events. I just have more fun at the lower level.

Gary Dobyns · Post by **Gary Dobyns** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 7:01 pm

Well i finally got brave enough to stick my nose in here and see how bad I got beat up

Looked like good points for both sides. Many agreed (love you guys), many didn't (least I didn't get gutted, thanks) but some good points were made.

Here are a few I would like to make:
I have some am staffers (5), and I wouldn't trade any of them. They do a great job (all but Gann

who was one of my first sponsors and he's probably paying me back)

Many pro's could learn from my "am" staffers.

I never EVER expected to be a tournament Pro, I don't think most do. I started in a tackle shop event (got crushed), signed up for a club, moved to teams (really got crushed) for a few years and LEARNED, moved to 1-day draws, two day draws, and pro-ams. You never know.

Team events all on the same lake does not make you a better fisherman. You are fishing your favorite water (spots) everytime. When you move to spotted bass fisheries, the Delta, Clear Lake, you must be good with a bunch of different baits and styles.

Thanks for all the opinions (half you guys are screwed up

) and not drawing blood (mine). 3rd post this week Dewayne

Joe Bruce · Post by **Joe Bruce** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:11 pm

lets not forget the point. rookie events are killing team events,

Mike · Post by **Mike** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:42 pm

Joe Bruce wrote:lets not forget the point. rookie events are killing team events,

+1

basshol · Post by **basshol** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:28 pm

call it what you want i know plenty of guys who fish the semi who have plenty of team tourneys and are past anglers of the year. they are fishing these cause they let them in.hey dont fish the regular circuits any more so yes bottom line this is lowering the team circuit turnouts i fish the real mans team circuits man up take your beetings.i never won a tourney yet. but i got 8 secons 5 thirds and 2 top five in tocs. i fish against the fish .sometimes you lose somethimes you win (or almost win)alot of people now over the last four years no who i am thats cause the first 4 years i took my lumps that my facts. Oscar

Gary Dobyns · Post by **Gary Dobyns** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 3:24 am

Gary Dobyns · Post by **Gary Dobyns** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 3:26 am

t one

Hardshell · Post by **Hardshell** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 7:09 am

Do a little math on the payouts of FPT, WRL, and AC Simi-Pro. You'll discover the scam and see really how the anglers are being sucked into donating even more than the pro-teams. Let's be realistic here, the costs(gas,insurance, boat costs,tackle costs,launch fees) are the same to fish either, the only difference is the slight reduction in entry fees and proportionally the amount that the tournament organization takes is way higher in the semi-pro circuits. Add to that, if you think you are being "Allowed" to fish against an equal playing field of anglers with the same experience you are sadly mistaken because there are a bunch of guys fishing these circuits that have no business in them.

Hardshell

Nozmo King wrote:So let me get this straightâ€¦ Is this whole thing the fault of the stupid tournie orgs for offering something to their customers that they like but shouldnâ€™t actually want, or is it the fault of the stupid customers for asking for something they want but donâ€™t really need?

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