Here is an e-mail that's floating around

[Morgan]

Getting the fantasy Fishing large payouts and supporting College are great ways to get the word out. The more people see and hear about bass fishing, the more interest and more non-endemic sponsors will step up. BUT, it needs to be kept in a good light, not complaining about not getting a fair share. That just reeks of sour grapes.
More people need to work harder in tought times to promote their sponsors, not just wear a shirt or parade around in a wrapped boat.
Ask what you have done to promote the sport? Gary D is well known for Ranger boats, Kent for Tritons. They speak about them often and at every opportunity. They promote them. Randy Pringle is well known for Persuader products and used to be Skeeter. He promotes. Sponsors look at these guys and know they are working hard for them.
I started thinking about our Pros and tried to think what they promote. Hmmm, they all could do better. AND if they do better, the products they promote will sell better and the companys will put more up.
Positive feedback on this forum has had the influence on me to buy their products and guide services. Negative just turns me off. It's the same with people......

Morgan

[Bassphish]

Wow dude did you EVEN READ IT! I am guessing NOPE. No one mentioned taking a THING away from the college kids. Just that is FLW can find money to dump into Fantasy fishing and College fishing they can do the SAME for The tours that MAKE THEM MONEY!

Let the Girls Basketball team support the fishing teams. You know the girls sports that caused so many schools to dump the money making boys sports.

Yeah, I did read all the posts j10b, even yours. And BTW, Title IX was instituted 37 years ago. Wow Dude, that's a long time to stay upset about how school sports are to be equally funded.

As for how FLW decides to spend its marketing monies, is there another like organization or company that has come close to putting in the time and resources to grow the sport, especially out West?

[j10b]

What I dont think people are grasping is that its not about sponsors or names.
Its about a bunch of pros that put EVERYTHING on the line for a chance at fishing.
Someone else sits at home on the couch doesn't know the first thing about fishing and spends the 35 bucks to help himself and wins a MILLION!

Seems a slap in the face to the guy that is on the water. Seems maybe HIS entry fee is helping to make sure someone gets a 100k to click the mouse. While he MAY get 100k if his equipment matches up. Does the guy at home get only 80k if he has a DELL but 100k if he has an APPLE? No.

It is sour grapes. Its guys who bust their butts to support FLW that are sending their entry fee to a guy that will never fish. Because of you look at the winners.... most of them will never step foot in a FLW tournament let alone Tournament CROWD! unless its in their backyard. And then its only for a freebie.

So this ISNT about people not promoting themselves. Its FLW saying you need to work to get more $$$ while the EXACT OPPOSITE to the people having fun at college or poking on a computer.

You know handing $$$ to people that have ZERO loyalty to the sport in Fantasy and maybe 50/50 in College Fishing. Rather than 100% of the guys fishing their tournaments.

Get the argument straight.

[JamesH]

J10, What you don't seem to get is that in order for FLW to pay the anglers more, they have to attract more sponsor $. In order to attract more sponsor money, they have to attract more fans of the sport. That is what Fantasy Fishing does.

As a business owner, I have put up several thousand dollars in prizes in return for advertising with a regional tournament circuit. My return on investment has been $0.00 dollars. I am not in the fishing industry but I love the sport. Reality is that I cannot continue to put up $ and get a zero return on investment.

Until someone comes up with a way to truly put a sponsors name and product in front of enough people to make their investment worth while, the business model is going to remain the same....

James

[rdearmond]

James H and j10b:

Go catch a fish, your spending to much time on this when you should be out pre-fishing

[Robert F]

Seems a slap in the face to the guy that is on the water. Seems maybe HIS entry fee is helping to make sure someone gets a 100k to click the mouse. While he MAY get 100k if his equipment matches up. Does the guy at home get only 80k if he has a DELL but 100k if he has an APPLE? No.

Thats funny right there. I don't care what boat you own

As far as the point of the thread, it is FLW's money, advertising, funny accounting, etc. and they have the right to choose how they spend it. They did not lower payouts when either of these programs started. One thing for sure these programs may be the reason why National Guard re-signed for 2010 and it may be the "value-added" that other sponsors like P&G need to stay on the banner. If FLW can do that by running these other programs it is far more than any other organization is doing to give us the most money back for our entry.

BTW I have been a boater for two of these College events. They need a lot of tweeking to really get these kids involved long term in tournament fishing. As a "Pro" boater all you are allowed to do is drive the boat where they instruct you to go. Can you imagine limited experience fisherpersons figuring out the Delta with no pre-fish?

[mark poulson]

J10, What you don't seem to get is that in order for FLW to pay the anglers more, they have to attract more sponsor $. In order to attract more sponsor money, they have to attract more fans of the sport. That is what Fantasy Fishing does.

As a business owner, I have put up several thousand dollars in prizes in return for advertising with a regional tournament circuit. My return on investment has been $0.00 dollars. I am not in the fishing industry but I love the sport. Reality is that I cannot continue to put up $ and get a zero return on investment.

Until someone comes up with a way to truly put a sponsors name and product in front of enough people to make their investment worth while, the business model is going to remain the same....

James

I think James hit the nail on the head.

And, if you guys want to keep having the opportunity to fish tournaments, you should probably be rooting for the organizations to attract outside sponsors by increasing the non-fisherman participation, like fantasy fishing, so they can subsidize the fishing industry sponsors, who are all having to cut back right now.
The higher the "ratings", the better the bang for the advertising buck.

[robertthornton]

Some of those kids do not appreciate what they are given. The ones I took out on my boat spent time talking on the phone trying to figure out what party they are going to that night. One of them dumped a 4 pounder because the other one was busy talking to his girlfriend on the phone.
Not fair to the guys working overtime just so they have a shot at getting there money back.

[JamesH]

Unfortunately I think that's true of most things that aren't earned.

James

[Smitty]

Bottom line , FLW isnt paying for College Fishing, National Guard is. Why, to generate officer recruits. Could the money be better spent if it was FLW's yes, but it isnt.
Smitty

[j10b]

Yeah i forgot, the guy sitting at his computer fishing for FAKE, is the guy spending all his time at the local ponds trying to get better.

OH WAIT.... he is on the computer with all his fantasy TEAMS.

So you REALLY think that fantasy Fishing brings people to the sport!!

LOL! Thats rich. A bunch of pros at a county fair offering to take people out for a X county Fair would get more people into the sport.
Your target audience is NOT sitting in front of a computer.

Your target audience is the 15 year old kid fishing from the bank. He is the 11 year old with his dad in their little john boat with no computer at home because his DAD is teaching him to love the outdoors.

You think slapping a logo on a website that hands out money is going to get you into a sport you are NUTS.

See I play Fantasy football for $$, do you know how much $$ i have spent on NFL merchandise in the past 5 years? 3 HATS!!!!

Yup thats all their marketing got me into. And I would have bought them anyways.

Look at the people winning the Fantasy $$ You tell me a mom of 5 is gonna run out and buy a boat and start fishing?
COME ON!! The people doing this are either already fans or someone looking to make a buck

I have no complaint with College, I just find it amusing its fully funded.


On a side note my brother makes $$ on rugby and other obscure european sports. he has NO idea how the game is played but wins. He doesnt care. Its about the odds and the $$$$

[j10b]

J10, What you don't seem to get is that in order for FLW to pay the anglers more, they have to attract more sponsor $. In order to attract more sponsor money, they have to attract more fans of the sport. That is what Fantasy Fishing does.

As a business owner, I have put up several thousand dollars in prizes in return for advertising with a regional tournament circuit. My return on investment has been $0.00 dollars. I am not in the fishing industry but I love the sport. Reality is that I cannot continue to put up $ and get a zero return on investment.

Until someone comes up with a way to truly put a sponsors name and product in front of enough people to make their investment worth while, the business model is going to remain the same....

James

because you aren't getting a good sound plan for your dollars. Too many guys go read a website on "how to get a sponsor" They think if they slap a logo on something it will give you all the exposure you want.

They dont want to work for you. Thats the reason so many "deals" are trash. Big Companies KNOW a guy is a lazy butt that just wants a freebie. So they give them garbage.

If you aren't in the fishing business there is NO reason your "sponsored" angler can't take his rig to a local Single A baseball game park it out front and hand out t-shirts or just park it there.

Its about how much these guys want to put into it. Its about how much the sponsor wants to put into it. You have shows to go to? Ask your angler to go with you. Ask your Angler to take a client out!

Having FLW slap your logo in font 1 on their site will NOT help you no matter HOW much money they give away.

[some guy]

I agree that the fantasy guys should not get more money than the actual pro's, but there is some benefit to it. The more popular fantasy fishing gets, the more hits they get on their site. The more traffic the site gets the more it will appeall to advertisers. They new advertisements may not even be fishing related but they will generate "NEW" money to FLW. The more money FLW has, the more chances they have to help out the anglers.

Why do you think you go to your favorite fantasy foot ball sites and there is a banner for say Gillette? That is not football related at all but its generating money. I personally think its awesome they are trying to tap into web dollars. Thats where the future of this is going anyways. Look back 20 years.. how many of you had a computer? now look at how many of you have a comp today. Imagine what it will be like in 20 years.

Why do the you think everyone is going to blogs, twitter, facebook, myspace etc. Thats a giant market that they need to tap into. It seems to me like they are just trying to embrace the future. This is just a way for them to get their foot in the door. IMHO.

[j10b]

I agree that the fantasy guys should not get more money than the actual pro's, but there is some benefit to it. The more popular fantasy fishing gets, the more hits they get on their site. The more traffic the site gets the more it will appeall to advertisers. They new advertisements may not even be fishing related but they will generate "NEW" money to FLW. The more money FLW has, the more chances they have to help out the anglers.

Why do you think you go to your favorite fantasy foot ball sites and there is a banner for say Gillette? That is not football related at all but its generating money. I personally think its awesome they are trying to tap into web dollars. Thats where the future of this is going anyways. Look back 20 years.. how many of you had a computer? now look at how many of you have a comp today. Imagine what it will be like in 20 years.

Why do the you think everyone is going to blogs, twitter, facebook, myspace etc. Thats a giant market that they need to tap into. It seems to me like they are just trying to embrace the future. This is just a way for them to get their foot in the door. IMHO.

Dude I will buy a razor if i see a commercial while watching Monday night football.

Im not gonna try out for the Chargers if I play Fantasy Football.

But you hit on the head and I am VERY Impressed. Fantasy Fishing allows for FLW to SELL ADS for the Fantasy Fishing which nets them $$$$. Its a money maker for them. Who cares about the Anglers when there is cash to be made selling an ad for doritos on the sidebar when you pick your anglers...

[soopawombat]

This is what I am hearing you say.
“I think the money could be better spent than it is on college fishing. That is a huge amount of money spent on 100 anglers tops. And they are going to get a boat to use next year and $50,000. That would go along ways in the big picture. They get all that with no entry fee and we fish for our entry fee monies only.â€

[fishinp]

Hey whats the worst that could happen, a kid who had no interest in school but loves to fish has incentive to stay in school and make a way to support his fishing habit in the long run... I'm the father of a kid who is a pretty good stick and he's chomping at the bit to fish an FLW Event. But his grades are priority numero uno! I've gotten him focused on being a student in the class and on the water. His goal is to attend a school that competes in the College Series.
When we are on the water prefishing what are we doing??? Schooling ourselves, learning, we are all students of the sport and I see no reason why it shouldnt be a collegiate sport.

[Flippinjigs]

Hey while we are picking on the FLW I have one idea you could use to squeeze a few more pennies from.

Here is another cash cow designed to lure your young adults into service with the National Guard.

The national Guard fishing team. I wonder just how much it cost to provide sponsorships to all those non military veterans? They have a nice truck and rapped boat to drive, entry fees paid? or what ever? I'm not sure. All of this is to entice your kids to enlist.

This team advertises the great fishing life in the National Guard. Sure sounds like a good sell. I'm sure it would be hard to achieve once your on your way to Iraq.

I feel if your going to put together a team that represents the military you should at least use real military veterans anglers that earned the privilege.

I am not anti military. I am retired military and a veteran of Vietnam, and Iraq. The younger veterans in our sport deserve the opportunity.

Good Fishin

[JamesH]

J10, I think your a little confused..... Fantasy Fishing isn't there to grow participation at the fishing level, it is there to grow participation at the fan level. The more fans you have in a sport, the more advertising dollars you can draw. The more advertising dollars you can draw, the more you can afford to pay the anglers. The advertisers could care less how many hours you spend on the water trying to become a better angler, they only care about how many people see their ads and buy their products.

You say that FLW should give you a bigger piece of the pie and then complain when they try to make the pie bigger..... The key to getting bigger payouts is by drawing more fans, not more anglers..... Unless you want to keep competing for each others entry fees....

James

[j10b]

Hey while we are picking on the FLW I have one idea you could use to squeeze a few more pennies from.

Here is another cash cow designed to lure your young adults into service with the National Guard.

The national Guard fishing team. I wonder just how much it cost to provide sponsorships to all those non military veterans? They have a nice truck and rapped boat to drive, entry fees paid? or what ever? I'm not sure. All of this is to entice your kids to enlist.

This team advertises the great fishing life in the National Guard. Sure sounds like a good sell. I'm sure it would be hard to achieve once your on your way to Iraq.

I feel if your going to put together a team that represents the military you should at least use real military veterans anglers that earned the privilege.

I am not anti military. I am retired military and a veteran of Vietnam, and Iraq. The younger veterans in our sport deserve the opportunity.

Good Fishin

+1 combat vet of Iraq and Afghanistan. I fished with a Guard team member and he could have cared less. The teams with military connections should be looking to military first. There are plenty of Vets that are good sticks.


Its not picking on FLW its pointing out their priorities.
No one is taking away from the kids or the Fantasy people's worth. Just saying it would be nice to think of the people that actually are the building blocks in the sport...... the ANGLERS actually fishing and paying to drive all over the country... you know the 88% NOT making their money back

PS read Terry Bastisis 4 part series... A LOT of the FLW pros are saying what I am saying. Gary D has said similar things many times. Point is FLW is forgetting about the ANGLERS!!!

[Gary Dobyns]

The more fans you have in a sport, the more advertising dollars you can draw. The more advertising dollars you can draw, the more you can afford to pay the anglers.

James[/quote]

This sounds good on the face of it, BUT you are dreaming. How much do they have to make? Do you have any idea of their sponsor dollars? YES I do. I've had the luck to bump into two different companies that tried to sponsor them. No i will not give names.

Do you know how many anglers that are going broke fishing FLW and BASS? Every other "Pro" sport I can think of has a better system. I just think the anglers ought to have better opportunities. FLW is lowering the entry. This is good, they really had no choice. The numbers keep going down, that's not happening because anglers are making too much money. Let's hope they they don't GUT the paybacks next year. I have not heard a word about this, but knew in June that the entry was going to $2000.

[sTony]

This sounds good on the face of it, BUT you are dreaming. How much do they have to make? Do you have any idea of their sponsor dollars? YES I do. I've had the luck to bump into two different companies that tried to sponsor them. No i will not give names.

Do you know how many anglers that are going broke fishing FLW and BASS? Every other "Pro" sport I can think of has a better system. I just think the anglers ought to have better opportunities. FLW is lowering the entry. This is good, they really had no choice. The numbers keep going down, that's not happening because anglers are making too much money. Let's hope they they don't GUT the paybacks next year. I have not heard a word about this, but knew in June that the entry was going to $2000.

I don't know, I guess this is where we kind of differ on viewpoints. See I have a different mindset about all this 'pro' talk. It's a confused notion. Pro Anglers. To my mind you've only got two trails out there that are filled with PRO anglers, that being the BASS Elite Series and the FLW Tour. Those are the anglers that are competing where the BIG bucks are. Anything else is merely qualifying to get that to level or just isn't something that's going to provide careers for people.

So how many other anglers are there out, not fishing two high profile tours, that's making a living fishing? Some might be getting by but not many strictly fish for a living.

And it might even be said that all these other regional players are really keeping the tour guys from realizing a living in competitive fishing.

Look to the other sports. The PGA, USTA, MLB, NFL and so on. Once you make the big game you start making a really good to great living. Most of the feeder leagues to those sports aren't filled with guys banking huge dollars. They're the guys that are struggling to just realize the dream of making it.

Hey the big bucks are on the two main tours, which I'd love to see combined into one real tour, btw. Then you'd have a huge chunk of guys, qualified pros, touring the country fishing for a living.

Sure you can pick up some change fishing the opens and NG series and the like, but let's admit it, they're designed to be stepping stones up to the big show. For FLW it starts with the BFLs, Strens and FLW Series East and West.

In football, you either make the big league, get shipped to Europe or your done. In golf you graduate from the lower tours but those tours generally don't pay well enough to provide much of a living. In baseball you toil in the minor leagues making next to nothing beyond a possible signing bonus until you make it to the major leagues.

What is any different about tournament fishing? If you want to make a living fishing you better get your butt into the big show and then be successful when you get there.

Those looking to stay on the west coast and fish locally and make a living have to know the odds are against them. Klein, Yelas, Roumbanis, Niggemeyer, Monroe, Reese, Martens and so on all figured that out at some point. They didn't gripe about the lack of prize money here, they went to where they had to go to make a living doing what they wanted to do.

So the opportunities are there, just not in the easy to open package as West Coast anglers would like.

sTony

[JamesH]

The closest sport to Pro Fishing is probably Golf. Figure out how to apply the pro golfing business plan to tournament fishing and anglers should be able to make what pro golfers make. I personally don't have a clue how they get the money they do (outside of endorsements) but I'm sure it comes back to advertising revenue.
Find a network that is willing to air all 8 hrs of a tournament day.....live of course.....figure out how to have cameras on the guys in contention and sell commercials.....then hope that something interesting happens.....

James

[mark poulson]

If Gary Dobyns says most guys are starving, believe it.
He should know. He made the choice not to follow the national trails for a reason. And I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts it wasn't because he didn't think he could be successful in BASS or FLW.
All the tours are, first and foremost, about making money for their business.
If they could do it without anglers, they would.
As it is, they've gotten anglers to pay their own way for a chance to fish.
They've tapped into the competitive side of a lot of anglers who think they can be the best, and used that to stock their tours.
But all the tournaments are is a chance for the organizations to make money. They aren't there to "help the anglers".
Anglers are just the vehicle they use to make money.
Watch what happens to any trail that doesn't make enough money. It will fold. You won't see BASS, or FLW, subsidizing their trails for the good of the anglers.
Please! It's about making money. Don't look for something that's not there, and lose sight of how things really work.
If you want to fish tournaments, go into them with your eyes open.

[Gary Dobyns]

I agree mostly with JamesH, Mark, and some of STony's last post. But tournament fishing looks to be on the down slide. Fishermen love to compete and have FUN! Fishermen are also getting smarter and it's easier now with boards like this one to pass info.

When we were paying $250 to $300 for Pro-Am's (fishing for a boat and cash) guys were not taking as much "house hold" money to compete. They also could burn 1 to 2 days of vacation, fish the weekend and be at work on Monday. It was fun and didn't break the bank. $4000 entry fees, 10 to 11 days off work, $2000 worth of expenses, and this isn't PRO level?? Sure it's not the Elites or Tour, those are ONLY back East.

Someone needs to figure a solution to losing anglers. The Elites and Tour gets their "new" blood, many are gone part way through the season. These two circuits can do better for the anglers.

FLW could do better for the anglers by simply letting them wear their OWN sponsors attire. This is a crap deal to anglers. Drop some of their holier than though crap on tobacco and alcohol logos. There are several anglers with full ride deals that FLW has TRUMPED. I'm talking about tobacco. Does anyone remember REDMAN?????

These changes cost FLW ZERO dollars and helps some of their anglers. I personally don't use tobacco of any kind, but this is America and a free country with CHOICE. At least for a little longer, that's another topic.

[mark poulson]

Gary,
I don't think the FLW, or BASS, will do better for their anglers until the anglers organize, and threaten to boycot their trails. And that's not going to happen.
I think the PAA is an attempt by some of the guys at the top to do this, but I don't know how much success they will have.
It's a tough nut to crack, for sure.

[Ringer]

Someone once said "it's the economy, stupid". Whether it is fantasy fishing or the college tour they are competing for fewer available dollars now. The people who fish any circuit are hurting in this economy so fewer can afford to fish. How many fishermen were from the construction and related trades a few years ago when everyone was making bank and buying a new boat every year? Plenty and all of those are either bankrupt or close to it. Not much discretionary money left out there. Bottom line is the sponsors are making more careful decisions on how to spend their money and they will be attracted to anything with a new twist and some chance of an advertising return. IMO it is a lose lose situation when the anglers start complaining and threatening the organizations. Better to think of ways to make the sport more attractive to the sponsors than whining about lazy college kids who don't deserve the money sponsors have given them. Some are complaining about the $50000 prize since that is now a more significant number yet one club has gotten $39000 in the bank? Must be some attraction to college fishing that the regular adult circuits don't have. It is all about competition whether it is over a fish or over a dollar. I just fished with a group of kids last weekend and three of them had brand new trucks and new boats bought for them by their wealthy fathers. Dad doesn't even fish yet there was over $200000 sitting there that would not have been there if junior wasn't interested in the sport. Advertisers don't really care about you or the circuits. They only care about ROI.

[mark poulson]

Ringer,
I agree now is a lousy time to try and pressure any organization for a better deal, or a bigger piece of the pie.
You're right, lots of guys in const. are going belly up, and it doesn't look good for the next year, at least. That's a long time to try and hang on by a thread.

[j10b]

+1 on the holier than thou. In Fact on BASS i have see WAY more "be responsible " type ads. Infact on Bassmaster Evan Williams had a commercial about being a responsible angler, then added about being responsible with alcohol intake. Didn't really advertise their product.

Same with tobacco. They actually make a good case not to use it.


Look FLW partnered with Walmart. The same place tied to sweatshops and a host of other bad businesses. Not to mention Walmart sells plenty of Alcohol.

I guess its OK to make some 9 year olds sew your clothes, they make such little stitches , Rather than have a budweiser drink responsible ad.

The Hypocrisy is a bit amusing. "Yeah we don't and will NEVER allow those evil things in our sport, we'll just collect money from someone that profits off selling it......................"


Ringer did you blame the economy for FLW Fantasy Payouts going down? They are going UP!!! Again just as many people would play for 100k than play for 1mil.

[Ringer]

I blamed the economy for participation in tournaments going down and fewer sponsor dollars and free boats to spread around. I said fantasy fishing was a new twist that attracted more dollars from advertisers. Bottom line is there is less money and it is up to tournament anglers to figure out how to attract their share. I own a business that makes custom furniture and see others closing the doors every week so I understand this economy. Most of us who depended on new homes and remodels are just scraping by. I guess I think we should just be thankful that there is even an FLW and BASS surviving during this mess. Tough times.

[some guy]

I guess I think we should just be thankful that there is even an FLW and BASS surviving during this mess. Tough times.

+1

[Gary Dobyns]

[quote="mark poulson"]Gary,
I don't think the FLW, or BASS, will do better for their anglers until the anglers organize, and threaten to boycot their trails. And that's not going to happen.
I think the PAA is an attempt by some of the guys at the top to do this, but I don't know how much success they will have.
It's a tough nut to crack, for sure.[/quote]

I couldn't agree more.