CA fishing law

Jerkbait · Post by **Jerkbait** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:21 am

Does Calif have a fishing law that says that a fish has to be hooked inside the mouth in order to be legal? I seem to remember that on the Bassmasters a angler had to release a bass on the Clear Lake Tournament he caught on a swimbait because it was hooked outside the mouth

Larry Douglas · Post by **Larry Douglas** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:53 am

Yes, you must hook a fish on the inside of its' mouth, otherwise it's considered "snagging", and is illegal in CA.

Larry Douglas

jrbasspro · Post by **jrbasspro** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:00 am

This is a touchy subject in the state of california, there are a lot of varibles

what if your throwing a topwater bait, the fish made a attempt to eat the bait (comes out of the water and crashs down on the bait but no hooks are its its mouth)----- this can be applyed to any condition except bedding fish

the way I read the law is the fish made an attemp to eat the bait, so its a legal caught fish. it was not a bed fish and caught in open water,

comments, suggestions,

maybe someone know a DFG officer who will take the time to help clear this up!

this has always been a gray area in DFG rules, its nice to see we don't have to keep out fishing liesnsce out anymore, maybe its time to clear this rule up (the downside is it could go against us).

Bill K · Post by **Bill K** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 6:05 am

In most, if not all tournaments, if it is not hooked (at least one of the hooks on a multi hooked bait) then it is foul hooked and must be released.
As for state law, if not hooked in the mouth, it also should be released, but most people will keep (if they are keeping fish) them if the hook is forward of the corner of the jaw.
Most wardens will give you no trouble, if that is the case, but behind the jaw or on the body, it is considered snagged. You will have to make the choice and live with whatever. Bill K

tunaman · Post by **tunaman** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 6:46 am

jrbasspro wrote: maybe someone know a DFG officer who will take the time to help clear this up!

SHEESH - here we go again!

If you search, this site already has the official word from the Director of the DFG (at that time), and unfortunately that rule has yet to be changed in spite of many attempts to conveniently explain it away.

It is clear and concise - the fish must have a hook entering from the inside of its mouth to be a legal catch... no "he musta wanted the hooks since he swiped at it", or "I saw them hangin outta his mouth when he jumped the third time", or any other convenient explanation. Not sure I really feel like getting into this can of worms again, as this topic generates a whole lot of debate for a cut-and-dried issue. Regardless, I'll search for the originals and post the links here for reference.

This was even a cloudy issue for many of the DFG personnel, including Mike G, as he formally came back on the forum and issued a retraction at the time.

Roger

tunaman · Post by **tunaman** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 6:53 am

Meanwhile, for your edification, here's section 2.00 of the 09-10 Freshwater Sport Fishing Regulations

2.00. Fishing Methods--General.
(a) All fish may be taken only by angling with one closely attended rod and line or one hand line with not more than three hooks nor more than three artificial lures (each lure may have three hooks attached) attached thereto. Anglers in possession of a valid two-rod stamp and anglers under 16 years of age may use up to two rods in inland waters which regulations provide for the taking of fish by angling, except those waters in which only artificial lures or barbless hooks may be used. See District Trout, Salmon and Special regulations for exceptions.*
(b) Snagging is prohibited. Snagging is defined as impaling or attempting to impale a fish in any part of its body other than the mouth by use of a hook, hooks, gaff, or other mechanical implement. This definition does not include activities otherwise authorized under these regulations for the lawful use of a gaff, bow and arrow, or spear.
(c) It is unlawful to kill, or retain in possession any fish which has not voluntarily taken the bait or artificial lure in its mouth. Any fish not taken pursuant to these regulations, shall be released immediately back into the water.

Absolutely nothing ambiguous about that, nor does it infer relation to salmon or any other such specific species. The salmon snagging regulation is elsewhere in the manual.

Roger

keithcant · Post by **keithcant** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 7:21 am

Where does it say the hook must enter from the INSIDE of the mouth. The regulation does not say such.

Impaling is a volitional act......not merely an event that occurred whereby the angler is left liable for the actions of the fish.

The 'rule' of hook entering from the inside going to the outside is a tournament rule to help clarify the method used was actually the fish's activity when bed-fishing. I know of Aaron Marten's releasing a 11+ bed fish @Clear Lake specifically for that reason. (A short bit later he caught the same fish abiding by the rule.)

Frankly, the opinion of a warden or even the director is their interpretation of what the regulation says. In California there isn't going to be anything filed w/o the approval of a prosecuting agency--City Atty., District Atty, and although unlikely the Atty. General's Office. If there is some past thread....you at best have the DFG Director's version of what he Believes or Hopes the regulation means.

tunaman · Post by **tunaman** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 7:25 am

Here's the original ugly thread discussing the issue back in 2007:

http://westernbass.com/forum/viewtopic. ... f2b63a41e0

And here's Mike's post titled "Final Word on Foul Hooked Fish":
http://westernbass.com/forum/viewtopic. ... highlight=

Roger

tunaman · Post by **tunaman** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 7:29 am

keithcant wrote:If there is some past thread....you at best have the DFG Director's version of what he Believes or Hopes the regulation means.

Uh... read the two threads I just posted and tell me if they don't satisfy your requirement? Is official word from the Director of the DFG, as well as the official statement from the State's preeminent DFG biologist enough?

Roger

Brian D. · Post by **Brian D.** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 7:40 am

keithcant · Post by **keithcant** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 9:06 am

Roger is clueless at interpreting a law......as I recall he can probably read a Kaiser chart.....or is that someone else??

big_gorilla · Post by **big_gorilla** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 9:29 am

JR unfortunately your wrong. Like Tunaman said the fish has to be hooked on the inside of the mouth.

I was surprised during the televised FLW tournament that one of the guys caught a fish that was hooked on the side of the body and he grabbed it and put it in the livewell. FLW I assumed didn't press the issue during there pre tournament meeting.

biteme · Post by **biteme** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 9:39 am

big_gorilla wrote:JR unfortunately your wrong. Like Tunaman said the fish has to be hooked on the inside of the mouth.

I was surprised during the televised FLW tournament that one of the guys caught a fish that was hooked on the side of the body and he grabbed it and put it in the livewell. FLW I assumed didn't press the issue during there pre tournament meeting.

Ive fished a couple pro ams where this happened. He was the pro so I didnt question it. The question is how many tournaments are won this way?

big_gorilla · Post by **big_gorilla** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:24 am

I'm not saying it was right. I'm sure a lot of guys have done it. But it being nationally televised I didn't think they would do it.

We've all done it the only exception I have is on sight fish. I made my partner toss back a fish that was foul hooked that would have probably weighed six pounds.

jrbasspro · Post by **jrbasspro** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:18 am

OK now that everones blood is up

I had this very thing happen at clear lake during the triton owners tournament in OCT 09

and I released 3 fish that would have helped becasue they were not hooked inside the mouth and all 3 of those fish would have helped

sometimes you stir the pot to get a point across!

Roger thank you for your input and anyone else who posted

clayton meyer · Post by **clayton meyer** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:42 pm

I have a few questions and am looking for short answers even if I don't get them. When did this rule come into effect? I recall a few years back when it all came about but did the rule exist prior?

When did it start effecting bass fishing?

Why did it start effecting bass fishing?

We have always had our own set of rules that worked...

"No Snagging Bedfish".

We do our best to let every fish go. Fish attack with the action and intention of eating our baits. We know what this law is intended for and this law should not apply to Bass Fishing.

LawDog · Post by **LawDog** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 8:22 pm

OK...I know everyone is fired up about this issue but...IT DOES NOT SAY ON THE REGS THAT THE FISH HAS TO BE HOOKED INSIDE THE MOUTH...only that it has to strike the bait with its mouth...thats a huge gray line. I'm a former law enforcement officer and that is not a clean cut defenition. I'm sorry...

Ray L. · Post by **Ray L.** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 8:33 pm

As a tournament director I have the rule about a fish hooked inside the mouth when bed fishing. If there is a sign that the fish was snagged I will look at the fish closer and make a decision. Also I will speak to the angler as well as his partner for the day and make a decision.
As far as a fish hooked on a topwater stuff happens. A crankbait the same thing. I have hooked worm fish on the side of the mouth as well. These are all fish that you don't know if they were first hooked in the mouth and then the hook shifted or what.
Clayton how are you. I know you called a couple of times but I have not returned your call sorry way too busy at work. Been avg. 48 to 50 hours a week since early summer.

jack morris · Post by **jack morris** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 8:35 pm

Tunaman,the regs you quote say in the mouth, why are people not understanding this . It seems pretty darn clear to me. If the fish is not hooked in the mouth throw it back. Jack

LawDog · Post by **LawDog** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:19 pm

jack morris wrote:Tunaman,the regs you quote say in the mouth, why are people not understanding this . It seems pretty darn clear to me. If the fish is not hooked in the mouth throw it back. Jack

Yeah but it said the mouth....NOT INSIDE THE MOUTH....two comletely different situations.

bryanmc · Post by **bryanmc** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:50 am

jack morris wrote:Tunaman,the regs you quote say in the mouth, why are people not understanding this . It seems pretty darn clear to me. If the fish is not hooked in the mouth throw it back. Jack

Jack... Do you see the word "hook" anywhere in that quote? It says the fish has to voluntarily take the bait or lure in it's mouth. It says nothing about the hook. We all know the rule was initially effected to prohibit salmon snagging. You know, when you deliberately attempt to foul hook a fish. How it ever got twisted into this hook inside the mouth thing is amazing.

Ringer · Post by **Ringer** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 3:30 am

God! Only in California could people take a law designed to prohibit people from snaggin salmon, steelhead and sturgeon and make it apply to bass fishing. I understand the rule on sight fishing but for any other bait that is just plain stupid.

Phil · Post by **Phil** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 4:40 am

If I have a bass hooked in upper lip, lower lip on a rip bait, crankbait with treble hook, its going to the scales or in the live well. Also have caught numerous Steelhead on the coastal rivers outside of the mouth, it's just the way they hit the bait somehow. Law used to be the eye forward as I remember.

mark poulson · Post by **mark poulson** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:45 am

Is "taking" involved in catch and release?

Ricky-S · Post by **Ricky-S** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:50 am

There is much being made out about this. This has never been a major issue at tournaments, only on the web. I would also say that this is more of an issue with guys that do not fish tournaments.

Each organization deals with this rule/law different and IF you fish tournaments and are concerned about how this rule/law is implimented/enforced then I would contact the tournament director directly. Problem/issue solved.

It takes a lot of the guessing or grey area out.

I also discuss this rule with my co-anglers if I am fishing baits that could hook a bass in this manner.

Oldschool · Post by **Oldschool** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 7:07 am

What part of reg 2C "in the mouth" do you not understand? If the bass is hooked in the throat, in the gullet, the lure or bait entered "in the mouth". Hooks "outside the mouth", on the head, on the side, in the back , on the gill cover are "not" in the mouth, unless another hook is.
All this started over Mac Weakley snagging Dottie "in back".
This regulation has been around for decades to prevent intentionally snagging fish and has evolved to what it states in 2C.
Tom

mark poulson · Post by **mark poulson** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 7:16 am

Does "retain in possession" apply to catch and release?
If you have a tournament variance and permit, what's the difference between immediate release, and release after weighin?
If you snag a fish, and then release it alive, you've fulfilled the law.
Isn't that what tournments pull permits for, to allow temporary possession of fish until weighin, at which time they are released?
Clearly, the law was intended to prevent harvesting fish by snagging. Catch and release is not harvesting.

Oldschool · Post by **Oldschool** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 7:44 am

C & R has nothing to do with 2C. Retain in possession is part of the sentence stating " It is unlawful to kill, or retain in possession any fish which has not voluntarily taken the bait or lure in its mouth.
If the bass hasn't taken the lure in its mouth it's unlawful to retain or keep it.
The tournament waiver allows you to release bass that have been legally retained and possed, example; you have a valid license and followed all the DFG regulations.
Tom
PS; you are right, this topic is a can 'o worms.

clayton meyer · Post by **clayton meyer** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 9:57 am

I would like all of you that speed on the road to head to the nearest police officer and turn yourselves in

it's not a can of worms. It's a law that shouldn't apply to our tournaments.

Oldschool · Post by **Oldschool** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 10:36 am

clayton meyer wrote:I would like all of you that speed on the road to head to the nearest police officer and turn yourselves in

it's not a can of worms. It's a law that shouldn't apply to our tournaments.

Speeding is a good analogy; most smaller SoCal bass lakes have a 35 mph speed limit, do tournament anglers get DQ'd for speeding? If you are a professional bass fisherman, fish for prize money, it shouldn't be too difficult to obey the law.
Tom

Oldschool · Post by **Oldschool** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 10:43 am

Brian D. wrote:

+1
Tom

mark poulson · Post by **mark poulson** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 10:43 am

Tom,
They do at Castaic.

Oldschool · Post by **Oldschool** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 11:27 am

mark poulson wrote:Tom,
They do at Castaic.

I have snagged a few spoon bass at Castiac or are you talking about 70 mph+, guilty on that also. Glad I'm not fishing tourny's these days.
Have a happy holiday and new year.
Tom

JamesH · Post by **JamesH** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 1:48 pm

So Tom, your saying that when a bass takes a top hook swimbait in it's mouth headfirst and the hook penetrates from the outside in due to the position of the hook, that is "snagging"? The fish clearly took the bait "in it's mouth" as the regulation states.

James

frank · Post by **frank** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 4:09 pm

Let's say you are fishing with your buddy and he hooks your ear lobe on a back cast. Would you say the hook is in your ear (most of us would along with a few other choice words), or would you look for clarifcation on where the hook entered and make a judgement call from there. Was it inside the ear canal or was it just on the outside. And if it is on the outside then how would you describe it.

When they say a fish must be hooked in the mouth, is the outside of the mouth still considered part of the mouth. If it said "inside" the mouth then there would be no debate, but if a hook has penitrated any part of a fish, then it is "in" that body part. Since when is the inside of the mouth the only part of the mouth. I have no idea why some guys keep saying "in the mouth, in the mouth" and they think that means inside the mouth. They are two differnt things. If a fish is hooked in the same place and one hook is from the inside out and the other is outside in I would think they are both "in" the mouth.

Tell me if I am wrong but I am just using a little logic here and reading th elaw as it is.

ASD · Post by **ASD** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 4:26 pm

Outside the mouth would be the face. In side the mouth well is inside the mouth. In betwine the two areas are the lips.

If you get in a fight

You get punched in the face
You get a fat lip
and if it's a good shot you get your teeth knocked out of your mouth

bryanmc · Post by **bryanmc** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 4:27 pm

Once again... here is 2c

(c) It is unlawful to kill, or retain in possession any fish which has not voluntarily taken the bait or artificial lure in its mouth. Any fish not taken pursuant to these regulations, shall be released immediately back into the water.

Someone please show me where the word "hook" appears in this regulation. I would have to say that if a fish came up from under a spook, took it in his mouth between the 2 trebles and ended up with one hook stuck on each side of his head on the outside, it would be a legal catch.

ASD · Post by **ASD** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 4:39 pm

When a person gets the fish to the boat you can see were the hooks are for shure. A person can not say for shure how a fish hit a bait. The fish may or may not be trying to eat the bait. Hence the mouth of said fish may be open or closed when the bait and fish came into contact.

bryanmc · Post by **bryanmc** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 4:44 pm

Unbelievable!

frank · Post by **frank** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 5:28 pm

So if you take a hook that was inside out in a fish, take it out and put it outside in the original hole, it is now in the face? And if you bunch that fish in the face it is now the lips, but if it is a good shot the teeth fall out? Just want to make sure I am following your logic ASD.

ASD · Post by **ASD** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 5:40 pm

2c states
" the bait or artificial lure in its mouth"

not to the face,tail or any other place and the hooks are part of the bait so if they are from the out side in. they were not in the mouth

bryanmc · Post by **bryanmc** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 5:48 pm

Is it ASD or ESL???
Taking the bait or lure in it's mouth has absolutely no bearing on where the hooks end up. Quit trying to add the word "hook" to the regulation. It's not there!

ASD · Post by **ASD** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:10 pm

I am not trying to add anything. Are you trying to say that the hooks are not part of a lure?

bryanmc · Post by **bryanmc** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 5:30 am

No, what I'm trying to say, and what you don't seem to be understanding is that the regulation speaks to the lure, not to a specific part of the lure ie the hooks. It truly does not matter where the hooks end up if the fish took the lure, any part of the lure, at some point during the strike, in it's mouth. I can't make it any plainer.

kopper_bass · Post by **kopper_bass** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 9:07 am

ASD & All,
To Bryan's point, there is no point in the law as to a hook, it speaks to "the bait" which can include hooks, but states nothing about how a hook has to enter, or exit, just the bait.

lets put this a simple way. i have done this many times before in pre-fishing (with a senko).

Tie a senko to your line, dont add a hook. The fish bites the senko and holds on. you reel it to your boat and net it before the fish lets go. The fish comes off in the net.

is it a legal catch?

There are no hooks, so there is nothing snagged or hooked inside the fishes mouth. the fish came off in the net, so there is no way to tell if it had the senko was in its mouth or if it just held on with its fins.

So what do you do?

I hope that 100% everyone would agree that this is still a legal catch and you did nothing to snag, or illegally catch this fish.

The point being that the law says nothing about a hook. you can catch fish all day long with a bait that has no hooks, but the law still applies; the fish has to actively grab the bait with its mouth. Thats all the law says. you cannot snap the fish purposely.

Kopper

Oldschool · Post by **Oldschool** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 2:36 pm

JamesH wrote:So Tom, your saying that when a bass takes a top hook swimbait in it's mouth headfirst and the hook penetrates from the outside in due to the position of the hook, that is "snagging"? The fish clearly took the bait "in it's mouth" as the regulation states.

James

Swimbaits create additional law issues. Lets say you are fishing a Huddleston with exposed top hook and you have rigged a stinger or trap hook on a wire. Is the trap hook rigged legal in CA? is it legal for IGFA? the answer is maybe.
If the trap hook is tied to the bottom hanger inserted by the mfr of the swimbait and the wire length doesn't extend beyond the top hook point; it's legal, otherwise it could be illegal for IGFA and legal in CA, as long as the trap or stinger hook doesn't snag the bass.
I would think a single top hook that penetrated the outside of the lip area would be considered in the mouth. However if the bass turned on the swimbait and you stuck in the side of the head as the lure was rejected, that would be snagged outside the mouth.
A Huddleston rigged with a stinger treble hook on the nose, in front of the top hook is illegal trap hook rig according to the IFGA, unless IGFA approves the rigging prior to submitting for a record catch.
I try to aviod trap or stinger hook rig swimbaits anymore due to the IGFA's regulations being unclear in regards to trap hooks.
Tom

mark poulson · Post by **mark poulson** » Fri Dec 25, 2009 7:09 am

Tom,
Why are trap or stinger hooks such a problem with the IGFA?

ASD · Post by **ASD** » Fri Dec 25, 2009 8:02 am

They want the fish to take the bait "IN" it's mouth and not just get hooked

Gary Dobyns · Post by **Gary Dobyns** » Fri Dec 25, 2009 8:10 am

[quote="clayton meyer"]I would like all of you that speed on the road to head to the nearest police officer and turn yourselves in

it's not a can of worms. It's a law that shouldn't apply to our tournaments.[/quote]

I agree Clayton.

Why does this keep coming up? I have talked with several F&G guys to get their point of view. This was aimed at salmon fishermen. It was not intended for bass anglers. Anyone fishing CBC can livewell a foul hooked reaction bait fish. Just like it's ALWAYS been done. Sight fishing is a whole nother topic.

bryanmc · Post by **bryanmc** » Fri Dec 25, 2009 1:30 pm

Thank you Gary... For the life of me I can't understand why people keep trying to turn this into something it isn't

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