You be the judge…

[Ron C]

About four years ago, Ray Moughalian of Revenge Baits designed a new, state-of-the-art spinnerbait called the “Deep Runnerâ€

[Mark Hiser]

Oh yea; it's most certainly a total" copy", they say thats the most sincere form of flattery, but I wonder how much cash involved changes that?
Mark

[Skeeterman]

Looks the same to me.

[BASS SHACK]

I am not sure that "designed" would be the correct word to use, maybe copied would be a better word. I wonder if Terminator baits has any idea that the "designer" is not really the designer. I have seen a lot of knock-offs of different types of baits, but this one, a little too close. What's next, maybe if they use the same packaging it might sell even better.

[Tobe]

I don't see a problem here; ok you have tandem willow leaf blades gold/chrome, 1oz weight and a skirt that looks like so many others, what am I not getting?

I just can't see anything so innovative in either one of these baits.

Please clue me in.

[BassTraveler]

Ron,
Man, I really do love ya.
I know both Ray and Skeet. Ray is a fantastic bait designer and business owner. Skeet is a great tournament angler and marketer.
I don't know if you have ever noticed it before, but everyone does a knock off of everyone, especially if one is successfull.
That is business, sometimes it's not pretty.
Here's why I choose business over government anytime.
In business...Let the FREE market decide.
In government...we don't have a choice. Period.
Obviously, Ray is a big guy and if a company like Terminator (Hmmm, wonder where they got that name?) wants to tangle with Ray...be my guest.

Like I said above...Let the "Free" Market decide.

[Pat]

Hey Ron,

Not pointing any fingers anywhere, but I will point out that the spinnerbait design in question was around a long time before 4 years ago. The first one I saw was called the Little Big Man and I think it was Viper that came out with it. I recall Gary D winning a buncha money and boats with it on Shasta and Oroville. They are great baits for spotted bass because they are compact but still heavy. There have been a number of copiers since then. So I don't think your friend had the original idea either. One other thing I notice between the two baits shown is the blades are shaped differently and since the Terminator is called T-1, it probably has a titanium wire. That's probably enough difference to stand up in court.

Pat

[NaCl]

I agree with Pat and the head design on both those baits looks like a knock off of the old DUH Team spinnerbaits which I think were designed by Rick Tietz or Doug Watson.

.....NaCl

[BassTraveler]

Ray was the first to come out with the Realistic eyes. He owned Viper, which later became Competitive fishing. That was a whole can of worms..I do not want to open.

[Jim Conlow Sr.]

The gill plate also seems to have a little different placement and shape and a different brand of hook seems to be used, plus their R

bend at the line ties are different.
It looks like a close copy but I suspect that the subtle differences will keep them out of court.

Jim

[Ron C]

...Viper's "Little Big Man" was the first such bait. Ray Moughalian started Viper Bait Company and designed the Little Big Man. As my buddy Sig pointed out, Viper was later bought our by Competitive Edge. And like my friend Sig, I won't open that can either.

You want to hear something really ironic? A couple of years ago, I asked Ray how come he didn't make a spinnerbait with a titanium wire in it. He told me that there were two reasons: First, titanium is an extremely hard metal that does not vibrate as much as regular (thin) spinnerbait wire does. The second reason? He didn't want anyone to accuse him of trying to knock off Terminator. Funny how life is.

[basstamer]

wow there is about 50 spinnerbaits that look like both of these-Cabeals has a line of their own baits that are darn close to both of these. If ya really wanna squeal foul look at Andre Moore's Sweet Beaver! I mean there isnt much you can change on them yet damn near every major lure maker along with every handpourer has exact copies-look on ebay! Hell they even use the "Beaver" name!
I gotta say though-the senko is great example......5-6.00 for a bag of 10 or 4.00 for a bag of 20 Tiki Sticks? You be the judge-I gotta go what the pocket book dictates as sad as that is.

[wormman99]

...Viper's "Little Big Man" was the first such bait. Ray Moughalian started Viper Bait Company and designed the Little Big Man. As my buddy Sig pointed out, Viper was later bought our by Competitive Edge. And like my friend Sig, I won't open that can either.

You want to hear something really ironic? A couple of years ago, I asked Ray how come he didn't make a spinnerbait with a titanium wire in it. He told me that there were two reasons: First, titanium is an extremely hard metal that does not vibrate as much as regular (thin) spinnerbait wire does. The second reason? He didn't want anyone to accuse him of trying to knock off Terminator. Funny how life is.

Ron-If you dig a little deeper, you'll find that Viper did NOT have the first spinnerbait of this design. In the mid 90's Buddha Baits came out with a spinnerbait called "Monster King". It was a small profile bait that had the body wrapped around the hook and was heavy for it's small size. Jon at Walton's Pond can confirm this info as he sold the baits BEFORE Viper came out with their version.

[sTony]

The industry is full of knock off baits and in fact is made up of knock off baits. You can't get patents on stuff like this and there are dozens of like baits on the market. It gets to a point where it's difficult to tell who knocked off who's baits.

And I'm wondering who the first guy that ever made a spinnerbait was and if he's po'd at all these other companies that have come and expanded on his original concept. Then let's count down the number of baits out there and the numbers of similar baits that followed. Cranks, topwaters, plastics; everything gets copied pretty much.

It's puzzling why one goes through life with a chip on his shoulder but once again I come back to the obvious; patent, copyright and protect. But Ray can't do that as he surely isn't the inventor of the spinner bait.

Everytime I turn around I hear a new story about how someone is ripping Ray off. I'm not so sure about any of them and it smacks of total paranoia.

The guy makes and markets a great lineup of baits.

But to go the extra length to actually name your company the name of your base motivation in life, that's just sad and extremely revealing.

sTony

[Colebass]

since I've been thinking of buying a tackle company. I've talked about it and looked at businesses, but it's crazy what these folks that own the businesses think they are worth!

I found a company I like and that many of you know. I may be in a position real soon to annouce something.

But Tony has a great point in his post about knock offs. I will disagree with you Tony about the name. I like the name and logo. I always thought Ray did that because of the Vyper or Viper or VPR-PRO thing.

It sounds like this thread is a none issue, because this has been going on in the industry for ages.

[Gary Dobyns]

Tony, I want to let you know I was around Ray when he started Revenge and we have had many discussions about the "Vyper products". Anytime Ray mentioned Revenge it was ALWAYS Revenge on the fish. I can see how and know of it being referred to differently but I absolutely never heard Ray say anything but "revenge on the fish". Is Ray paranoid? Yes. He did get screwed with his former baits. I personally lost a ton of money there, also. He is the best detailed lead cast guy I have ever seen. Also, as I said on a mic earlier this year "You have to wonder about a guy who shaves his body and runs around in a pink thong". Just so I don't have to try and whip him, he was at a body building contest. I usually leave that part out though.

[Colebass]

Man this thread is heading down a funny turn! HAR!HAR!

Let me get this straight, your thinking about whipping a guy with a pink thong? HAR! HAR! i thought this was a fishing website? HAR!HAR!

[kb]

Isn't that the same pink thong Dobyns wore in the Evinrude commercial????? I heard that is the official E-rude team outfit. Oh and Ray doesn't always wear a pink thong, Scott H says he wears a leopard print one too with stilletto heels.

Yea your right Cole going the wrong way!!! I was just amazed Dobyns was flying the computer and not the freezer at this time of night.

Oh and in the fishing tackle business R&D means ripoff and duplicate. Remember Bobby Garland guys?????

[Colebass]

Dobyns is in the freezer RIGHT NOW, getting some ice cream!

And if a thong is Evinrude team gear, I won't be on that team! HAR!HAR!

[John Barron]

And quite frankly I’m surprised with your post. You have been burnt before and know what it’s like to try to protect what’s yours. But that’s not why Ray’s company is “Revengeâ€

[sTony]

Is there all that much difference between the baits shown in the top post and this one:



Yeah, Revenge offers the bait in a lot of sizes, but it looks to me like the baits are offly similar to this bait produced by Duh!!!Team several years ago and before Revenge existed.

Sorry if guys think I'm off base about the naming of the company but, as usual, I'll stand by what I wrote.

sTony

[Andy Giannini]

It was a Budda bait. It was the first one ready out of the package with additional weight in the form of a minnow body that I can remember.

But then wasn't that just a copy of Rick Clunn's idea about crimping on a rubber core sinker?

I went through this patent defense stuff when I was bike racing. One change in materials, or components could mean a new design. Defending the design can be expensive, and in the case of a smaller guy almost cost prohibitive.

Tom Seward has been copied enough, he actually incorperates little things in his hard bodied baits to prevent or identify direct rip offs of his work. (That just floored me, and I realized how bad it must feel to be victimized in this way.)

There is another way of looking at it. The original designer had a plan, a criteria, and a level of performance he was shooting for. I don't really think, someone trying to emulate it will come close. The Senko is the most perfect example. Tons of knock offs, but I will never fish with them. I have not seen one yet that gets the bites, and because of so many fish Yamamoto has earned my unswerving loyalty.

A new wrinkle on an old design is nice, and might stir up some new interest. But I am not interested in copies.

A.G.

[Scot]

Tony, I think you might want to check but Viper spinnerbaits have been around since about '95. I do not think Duh had there spinnerbait out then. I could be wrong.

I have been directly and indirectly involved with Ray and the spinnerbaits since the Viper days. I have been through the Competitive Edge era and all the changes since then.

As anyone knows who has been involved in fishing tackle in this area, Ray was the first one in this area, and maybe the country to do some innovative things. EX: 3D molded eye, Gill plates on head, etc.

Does this mean no one else can do it, Absolutely not. You are right he does not have patents or copyrights. BUT it does go to the integrity of the person who says they designed a bait that is extremely close and technically could be considered a knock off.

Some people think copying is the best form of flattery but others just do not see it that way.

Does Skeet have the right to make this bait, you bet he does. That is what is so great about this country. Should he be stating he designed the bait. My opinion NO. As you know when this happens and it does all the time most guys just put there name on it and that is it. Where I think the big contraversy has risen is that he states he designed the bait and specifically states things that have been part of the bait and literature since the late 90's.

Someone made a comment about the beaver being knocked off. That is without a doubt the property of Reaction Innovations. There are many knock offs out there right now but I personally have not seen anyone claim the new bait as there own. If they have then they are wrong to do so as well.

Everyone has the right to make and market products. It all goes to integrityand morals of how you do it.

[Gary Dobyns]

Was Duh spinnerbaits out before Vyper? I don't remember it that way. I am getting old, I could be wrong. Ray started Vyper and then years later started Revenge baits with much more detail. My main disagreement with you Tony is over the name Revenge. I totally think your wrong on this. It's Revenge on the fish, and nothing more. I will say Ray is paranoid and I'll even say Ray needs to be less confrontational with this subject of knock offs. It's nothing I haven't told him before. Saying it again, might sink into his thick skull. Everyone take notice as I say this I'm a hundred miles out of his reach.

[Scot]

You are`just a BIG BABY

[Lugnut]

It seems to me that there are quite a few spinnerbait designs that look very similiar. Not quite sure who came out with what first, so I am going to stay out of this one.

[Jon]

Scot, you sound like the 5th graders I teach.
Jon

[sTony]

It's still a heckuva lot better seeing ol' Ray doing the posing thing in a pink thong instead of Dobyns doing a tank seminar in any color thong, hahaha.

sTony

[Colebass]

I don't want to see either of them in a thong!

Let's get back to spinnerbaits! HAR!HAR!

[Phil]

Hey you know, a spinnerbait is a spinnerbait I poured 100's of them years ago for Stewart at Phils Prop, they look pretty much like these also. But my memory is getting old and fades me, but it seems it is all about marketing yet. I still make and sell them here at this later years at Don Pedro, God I hope nobody sues me. I'll have to pay-em off in spinnerbaits....

Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night !

[Fast 492]

I have no desire to see Gary in a thong, but give me the opportunity to get on the back of his boat on Oroville for a day and he can wear what ever he wants??????LOL...

[Colebass]

that is not true! He's a hairball! HAR!HAR!

KB, I need some help here.............this should be on your show. "What would you do to fish with Gary Dobyns. On the lake of your choice?"

This could get crazy..........it's like the Jerry Springer of bass fishing shows! HAR!HAR!