Bassmasters vs. FLW

[jazzwannabe]

Bassmasters claims to be the major league of bass fishing, but doesn't FLW pay bigger money? Why don't the Bass guys compete where they can win more money? Which one really is the top tour?

[ckraft]

four letters ESPN.

[scott h]

Bassmasters & espn.The classic is much more sought after.just my .02

[profisha1]

jazzWannabee,

FLW was paying more money. I dont believe that they are this year (Loss of sponsors. ) But in order to be eligable for the $ you had to conform to FLW. Which required running there boat brand, motor, and promoting the companies that sponser FLW all for a increase in payout. The main problem is that FLW does not allow anglers to promote sponsors in a way that benifits the anglers sponsors to pay top dollar. They will not allow you to wear your own tournament jersey if you make what used to be a top 10, to now the top 5. You will recieve no telivision coverage for your sponsors. There are very few anglers in FLW if any that can make a living without cashing a single check.

On the other hand Bassmaster allows the anglers to brand themselves and create their own image. This then brings in the individual sponsor $ and allows anglers to make a decent living without cashing tournament checks to survive. Not all BASS pros have this luxary, but the percentage is much higher here.

Bassmaster has been around longer, and anglers dont have to conform to part of the family. Bassmaster is the top tour. But in reality we need both tours because they force each other to improve and offer the anglers better payouts. Plus the more people know about bass fishing the more the sponsers will grow, and they both promote the sport well.

My .02

[scott h]

Very well said RJ.

[kb]

Well there ya go!!!! RJ gave you a complete answer to your question.

Good job RJ
kb

[swordfish]

Well put RJ, also some anglers like Steve Kennedy fish both circuits thats hard core!

[TomAtkeson]

Thats some MAJOR time on the road!

[swimbait]

I think RJ got everything right except the notion that anglers need both circuits to keep them honest and encourage competition. I think anglers need one circuit and a strong "players union" of sorts, whether that's the PAA or something else.

A single circuit with TV coverage where the anglers can showcase their sponsors is what is needed. That's how real sports do it. There's only one MBA, MLB, NHL etc. There's only one for a reason.

The fans want one league. They want to see Yelas and Ehrler vs KVD and Ike. They want to see them in their boats with their shirts. They want a legit qualification process so they know it really is the best guys competing.

My .02 is that the FLW model is fundamentally flawed with the "we're doing this to sell Ranger boats" model and the sponsor deals where anglers can't negotiate with their sponsors directly, or wear their own shirts on the final day. Can you imagine if the stated objective of NASCAR was to sell Fords? That's whack city. Can you imagine if they raced the first 3/4 of the race then had to get out and switch cars to sponsor cars? That's nuts.

I hope BASS wins out and a strong association of anglers stands by to work with BASS where needed but also to keep them honest and keep it sustainable for the fishermen.

[MrGambit]

Here you go over next few years just watch the PAA grow http://www.fishpaa.com/
This is run by the pros that fish both FLW & BASSMASTER events they all have a shot at getting to compete at events and it will get bigger for sure from what I have read and been told ... Just wish they would have few events out this this way........

[Johnny C]

One point I like with B.A.S.S. is the marshalls. This is an individual sport and it should be done that way at its highest level. This is not to say there are not great anglers in the FLW. I see more of them in the opens trying to qualify. I believe the B.A.S.S. should make openings for the top twenty in the FLW. There are many anglers there that are better then most of thier rookies.

[Mike Phua]

Bottom line B.A.S.S and Flw have two completely different business plans. Both are laid out and black and white.

Flw: This company is a marketing juggernaut for its OWN sponsors. Their marketing plan for their sponsors is second to none. Absolutely number 1 when it comes to marketing their Sponsors. If an angler chooses to drink their cool-aid then they have to abide by what they say. If your Lucky enough to make the top 5 you cannot show any other sponsors. For those of you lucky enough to make it to that meeting (I have twice) The director specifies that the quickest way to get DQ'd is to display a non Flw Sponsor on the final day when the cameras are rolling. From the registration to the weigh in all you receive are impressions from their sponsors........"Don't forget to stop by the tent for your Folgers coffee and Dunkin Donuts break" make sure to grab your "National Guard" weigh in bag. it goes on and on. One thing that this company does do in favor of their anglers is that they field Teams from their respective sponsors. Who knows what the details are but some of them get trucks and boats and entries and some salaries......i think every deal is a little different but I do know that B.A.S.S does not have teams for their anglers. Regardless if it's only entry fee's or the use of a boat and truck it is more than what you receive from the other company.

Why is it like this...........cause These guys receive ridiculous amounts of money from their sponsors to promote them and only them, so don't kid yourself about the money involved here we're talking about millions of dollars that is being paid to Flw from these sponsors.

B.A.S.S: This company's business plan is different in the respect that it's geared toward's the anglers and the promotion of them and their respective sponsors. I think everyone knows this.

So after knowing all of this who is the Best? The marketing juggernaut who only markets for its own sponsors or the other company that lets you market yourself?

Here's the reality............it's tough either route. One direction you have to be sipping on the cool-aid to get a deal with them. The other direction is finding a company or multiple companies to invest in you. Are you getting paid by your rod company? How about your Boat line? How many motors are you getting a year? How about those worms your throwing you getting any love from them? and I'm not talking about product either I'm talking about being on your sponsor's PAYROLL. Guys it's extremely hard to get a wrapped deal that means anything. It's over 50G's with expenses to fish the Elite's. You either have to be independently wealthy or one hell of a stick or just an extremely marketable person to make it on the Elite's. That's the Reality of it all. MP

[profisha1]

Swimbait,

I agree on your point, but I dont think that we have a spectator sport that will grow to those NFL, NBA, Nascar, MLB, ect. high dollar extreme's. The circuits are trying to gain spectators. I do think FLW with their fun zone is on the right track. It just needs continued growth, Its hard to watch anglers on the water when it requires a boat, and weigh-ins are so repeatative, they really are not exciting. But if they add excitement, then the weigh-in takes too long, until the final top 10 day.

The reason I made the statement about needing both, was because when I fished the tours the payback was horrible. Yes you could win 100k but 90% of the guys cashing checks were only making a couple hundred bucks ( after entry and expenses). FLW was the first to come out with the 10k down to 50th place, then Bass started to loose some anglers, So BASS followed suite and offered the same payout, you just had to pay a higher entry fee, but both circuits offered the chance for anglers to make a real living. Because of one circuit pushing the bar.

FLW WAS known for its higher payouts, but thats what they had to do to get the acknowlgement of a top level pro circuit. They just did it by selling the anglers as billboards for its sponsors and the anglers obbliged to be eligable for the contingincy money. I think that two years ago they should have raised the bar again, Paying 100k per tournament and 1 Million to final winner of Fantasy Fishing, 50k to the top Colleges, all the other payouts associated, While making a strong profit. I feel the anglers could have benifited from some of this cash. But thats their Corporate decision.

It would be awesome if we had one professional trail. But it isnt likey, If BASS had the funds to offer no entry fee and a 1500$ guarrenteed check for the pros, then FLW would follow suite. Their competition between each other is what helps the fishermen and the sport.

I would love to see something similiar to the PAA take off, Yes it is ran by the anglers, but that can also impose a problem. It would be harder to get the sponsor dollars when your not on a strong corporate level.

Sorry I made it so long
Just finishing my .02

[GKramer]

First off, these are two 50 boat circuits. Their fields are filled out with capable, but really only second-tier pros. There are plenty of guys on this forum who, at a given moment at a given event at the right time of year, could win in either circuit. (Remember, a club guy and dabbling pro at the time, won the Bassmasters Classic). It's the other 15 or so events where they might not be able to keep up.

This is not a criticism. There are only a limited number of expert laser eye surgeons, first-rate trial lawyers or Pulitzer prize winning writers. Yes, there will be room for improvement, but there is always a gap between the best and the rest.

As for marketing, there remains no comparison in the greater public view between the two bass organizations. Like Leno's streetwalkers, if you ask a thousand people on the street what FLW stands for they will disappoint and embarrass you! The Bassmasters (or ESPN) have much greater name recognition.

The folks on this forum fish (or stand around weigh-ins like me) so we know. But ask your gardener, market checkout clerk, or the mayor of your town and see if they know. They still don't.

[captjohn]

FLW changed policy on allowing none sponsered apparel on final day. A few weeks ago I saw this on FLW website.

As for who is the better, The one that puts on medium level events on the west coast. Like the Stren or BASS Opens. Any west caost guy thats asspires to fish nationally now has to either fish the Natinal Gaurd or travel to the east to fish the Opens.

Without the smaller events as stepping stones for sponsers and just learning.

[maxe]

Yea now they allow a whole 3X3 spot on your shirt, oh and it can't conflict with any of there sponsors. Same ol crap.

[flipit]

I wouldnt mind the Elites going back to the 150 pro's for the field. I think there are plenty of good anglers that could fill that field again.

I believe for BASS to really grow, they will need to come back out west with the opens. There are many capable anglers that wanna advance from this area, but in order to do so they have to go back east to fish the opens. Hopefully it is no longer a pro on pro draw like it was, but instead a true pro/am style event as the FLW has done.

[GKramer]

Yikes. Did I say "streetwalkers?" Freudian slip, maybe. That's "Jaywalkers."

[Oldschool]

Bassmasters claims to be the major league of bass fishing, but doesn't FLW pay bigger money? Why don't the Bass guys compete where they can win more money? Which one really is the top tour?

Who was the FLW bass division champion last year? or name 10 FLW pro's? Most recreational bass anglers can name the Bassmaster Classic winner and several Elite anglers. Now if you are talking walleyes, the FLW is the circuit.
Agree with GK; FLWho!
Tom

[swimbait]

That's cool. I hear what you are saying about the two orgs driving against each other and that leading to better stuff for the fishermen. That's definitely a good thing. I just think it could be so much better if it was a single circuit with a strong group of fishermen to keep the fisherman's interests and financial needs met.

There's never been an angler's strike in fishing that I can remember, but I think the guys on the BASS side have enough name recognition to get concessions from the circuit if they wanted it bad enough. If the top guys like KVD, Skeet, Ike, Aaron, etc decided to all pull out of a tourney to get concessions - the fans would go nuts. On the FLW side I don't think the clout is there.

Former FLW cup champions include guys like Scott Suggs and David Dudley. Those guys are great fishermen no doubt, but if they pulled out of the next FLW tour event as part of a strike, I think sadly not many people would care. I bring up this kind of example to point out where fishing is at as a sport. In "real" sports there's a symbiotic relationship between the league and the athletes. If the balance gets out of whack there's a strike or a lockout.

In fishing it's more like the circuit is the casino and the anglers are the gamblers. There's no good balance and it perpetuates this dual league system where half the guys are making no money and sleeping in flea bag hotels.

I'm just a hack when it comes to tourney fishing, but I'm a big fan of the sport in general and it gets old watching how the sport is run.

There needs to be one circuit. There needs to be a tiered qualification process with at least 4 strong pro regions under the tour level (north,south,east,west). The tour level should be no entry fee. Something along the lines of the CBC. Every guy should have a wrapped boat that they fish out all 4 days of the vent. There needs to be a professionally produced TV show that comes out quickly after the event. The final event of the season (the Classic) needs to be big money.

All of these things build excitement with the fans. Fans of all sports like to know they are watching a fair competition among the best athletes. They want consistency year after year so they can get behind a certain person or team. They want great coverage, and they don't want to be bombarded with crappy marketing efforts.

The more fans there are, the more eyeballs you'll have on the sponsor materials. You're right fishing isn't a spectator sport on the water, but it can be at the weigh in, online, and on television.

IMO, FLW has the sponsor part of it so wrong as a sustainable business model. Their model is short sighted and geared to put money in their pocket today. I don't think it can last and I think we're already seeing that. It's like a fishing version of the dot com bust to me.

When I watch a National Guard weigh in I get nauseated watching these poor guys having to talk about Dunkin Doughnuts and Beef Jerky and whatever else they have to plug. It's not genuine and any fan with half a brain knows it's bull. Contrast that with KVD talking about his strike king crankbait after he just won an event. It doesn't feel canned and corny. It makes you want to go buy some Series 6 like right now today.

Same deal if you see Skeet in a Champion and he gives his spiel about running 6 footers at the great lakes, it makes you want to run a Champion. He doesn't have to stand up there all cheeze and give the, "uh I have to thank my motor sponsor because it got me all over the lake today" thing. Some of the Elite guys get sucked in to that thing because they have to (like everyone having to say how the new Yamaha SHO is a game changer) but it's nothing compared to FLW.

Anyway, these posts usually turn in to some pointless argument but it's nice to see some decent discussion. I think the only way this stuff gets "fixed" is if the anglers get strong enough to unite and make it happen. The circuits won't do it themselves because it's not in their best interests or their shareholder's best interests from a financial standpoint.

[Dbass]

I think The FLW should make a new rule and not allow the pro's to use nets. They don't use them in BASS. my 2cents

Dbass

[fish_food]

I think The FLW should make a new rule and not allow the pro's to use nets. They don't use them in BASS.

I'd rather broadcast someone netting a fish versus someone swinging and bouncing one onto the deck.

[Long Nguyen]

...Those guys are great fishermen no doubt, but if they pulled out of the next FLW tour event as part of a strike, I think sadly not many people would care. I bring up this kind of example to point out where fishing is at as a sport. In "real" sports there's a symbiotic relationship between the league and the athletes. If the balance gets out of whack there's a strike or a lockout.

In a small kinda way, this already occured. Earlier this off season two FLW veterans, Craig Powers and Koby Krieger, walked away from FLW with bad tastes in their mouths and aired (dirty) laundry about FLW.

Bassfan reported on it and made for interesting reading.

http://www.bassfan.com/news_article.asp?id=3488

[jazzwannabe]

When I watch a National Guard weigh in I get nauseated watching these poor guys having to talk about Dunkin Doughnuts and Beef Jerky and whatever else they have to plug. It's not genuine and any fan with half a brain knows it's bull.

That's one of the things that bugs me about the fishing shows like Scott Martin or whoever. They're always pimping their sponsors' crap. It's their job.

[fish_food]

When I watch a National Guard weigh in I get nauseated watching these poor guys having to talk about Dunkin Doughnuts and Beef Jerky and whatever else they have to plug. It's not genuine and any fan with half a brain knows it's bull.

I wonder if that Febreze guy ever finished high enough to require plugging the product on stage. And to think the poor sap has to wear their silly looking jersey and to have his boat done up in their ultra-feminine color scheme and logo. Febreze' logo and color scheme are so reminiscent of gauzy douche product ad campaigns!

[Hollywood]

I wouldnt mind the Elites going back to the 150 pro's for the field. I think there are plenty of good anglers that could fill that field again.

I believe for BASS to really grow, they will need to come back out west with the opens. There are many capable anglers that wanna advance from this area, but in order to do so they have to go back east to fish the opens. Hopefully it is no longer a pro on pro draw like it was, but instead a true pro/am style event as the FLW has done.

they can't even fill 100 boats on the elite series.....

[flipit]

If they had a western open series it would not be a problem. Look at the guys fishing the FLW Tour. I know twice as many guys wanting into the Bassmasters. I cant believe that many of the top FLW Tour guys dont want in, but qualifying is a chore with their schedule. Much of the shortfall is due to lack of qualifying criteria. With no western circuit it also eliminates the Nation Wide advertising draw. Again they need to stand behind the western Opens and not walk away.

BASS can do it if they wanna make an exception for the top 25 as automatic berths.<from FLW Tour> Many would jump ship, then there are others that ya wonder why they were fishing FLW to begin with(Larry Nixon). The Elites of BASS are the best as is the Classic.

[Hollywood]

If they had a western open series it would not be a problem. Look at the guys fishing the FLW Tour. I know twice as many guys wanting into the Bassmasters. I cant believe that many of the top FLW Tour guys dont want in, but qualifying is a chore with their schedule. Much of the shortfall is due to lack of qualifying criteria. With no western circuit it also eliminates the Nation Wide advertising draw. Again they need to stand behind the western Opens and not walk away.

BASS can do it if they wanna make an exception for the top 25 as automatic berths.<from FLW Tour> Many would jump ship, then there are others that ya wonder why they were fishing FLW to begin with(Larry Nixon). The Elites of BASS are the best as is the Classic.

in order to hit 150 using they west they would need another 57 boaters. sorry i just dont see that happening. FLW has a hard enough time drawing guys from the west and youdont even have to qualify to enter there events. and the elites only take the top 7 from the opens. so 150 is a far stertc...

[flipit]

Its all about the advertising dollar. If its fully nation wide more sponsors will jump on board, allowing more anglers to fish. Its purely financial for alot of guys right now. FLW is not BASS and at this point is a long ways off. What they have done right is stay here in the west. BASS needs to do that. Even if the opens only draw 100 boats, they still get some great anglers that can compete on the elite level.

[CN]

At least the poor guy has a sponser

[angler1]

When I watch a National Guard weigh in I get nauseated watching these poor guys having to talk about Dunkin Doughnuts and Beef Jerky and whatever else they have to plug. It's not genuine and any fan with half a brain knows it's bull.

I wonder if that Febreze guy ever finished high enough to require plugging the product on stage. And to think the poor sap has to wear their silly looking jersey and to have his boat done up in their ultra-feminine color scheme and logo. Febreze' logo and color scheme are so reminiscent of gauzy douche product ad campaigns!

I saw one guy in a picture who had the febreze logo, before he had it he won this really small tournament for a $1 million payout...

[Caudawg]

I think it is great that anglers have choices about which circuit to compete on. There are lots of guys who don't have the marketing savvy (or resume) to go out and procure $50k+ in sponsorships. But, if they choose to walk in lock-step with FLW... bammm! You are in (if you are one of the "chosen ones").

This can fast-track an angler's career. But as we have seen...it can get old (even with some success) and some guys decide they don't want to be part of that type of marketing and decide to "go it alone". Again, that's their choice...and it's nice to have choices. So off to BASS they go.

By the way, I'm a bit puzzled by PAA these days. I was attracted to the concept early on as an org where pro anglers could unite, get group benefits and have a voice. I still have aspirations of getting back to competitive angling (at some level) some day and I thought that PAA would be a non-biased organization worth joining. But now they are holding their own major type events and it seems to conflict a bit with their original concept. Maybe the original concept did not get enough support from the anglers and they were forced to differentiate??

[BMX Bassin]

Great Discussion.
FLW is a selfish Bitch huh? I just realized that more than ever after reading Mike Phua's post. I was lucky enough to make the Stren Champs as a co when it was at Table Rock and The Pre-tourney meeting was "buy Ranger cause...." and " Buy Chevy because...." And "Buy ....." It was sick.

In Fact I know that in 2009 FLW made $75 MILLION DOLLARS off sponsors ALONE.

But BASS has the espn machine behind it so it has a certain neutral advantage. Just wish they would come out here again. I have never fished a B.A.S.S. event.

[bigbass111]

FLW changed policy on allowing none sponsered apparel on final day. A few weeks ago I saw this on FLW website.
As for who is the better, The one that puts on medium level events on the west coast. Like the Stren or BASS Opens. Any west caost guy thats asspires to fish nationally now has to either fish the Natinal Gaurd or travel to the east to fish the Opens.

Without the smaller events as stepping stones for sponsers and just learning.

No sir, read the print. Nothing really changed with sponsor logo's. The only NON-FLW patches that can be shown cannot be a competitor of any FLW sponsors. So, Nothing other than Ranger boats, yammie and evin, or pretty much anything else. FLW has a sponsor of some sort in pretty much every category......

Its a joke, OHHH and no more PAA patches allowed. That alone will ruin FLW..They have alot of PAA staff fishing FLW, this surely pi$$ed some of them off.

[Guest]

B.a.s.s. is the sprint cup series of bass fishing #1

Flw is the nationwide series of bass fishing # 2

VERY SIMPLE