Clarification on Silverwood Controversy

[gotafish]

I have never made a post on this forum, but in light of the controversy at the last ABA Silverwood event, I wanted to shed some light as to what really went on, respond to the posts on the ABA website, and this Forum.
There were two separate team members going to the docks to release their fish, who choose to not turn their fish over to a DFG representative. My Son, Brian Stoudt was one of these people. After witnessing this person cutting off, not just “clippingâ€

[Whoopbass]

Nice post. I would have done the same thing.
Just another example of someone that wears a uniform throwing a tantrum and using any power they might have to prove to you who's Boss.

[longshot]

Sounds like a bunch of b.s. to me give someone power and they will abuse it BUT I would guess that ABA isnt happy about the DFG "pulling" there permit.
I think its pretty chicken chit of you to red flag ABA for practices that most if not all orgs do. BAD BAD TASTE I agree with your son BUT obviously he learned his ethics from the "great anglers" and NOT you.
L.S.

[lobinaloca]

My partner Steve and I (Isaac) were the other team that released our fish. I don't want to stir the pot, but I believe I should also explain why my partner and I chose not to hand them over.
My partner and I chose to release our fish at a different location in order to not insult the DFG, we did not do it because we do not respect the DFG, but because it makes us upset how carelessly they treat the fish after they are handed over to them. I'm new to the tournament scene and maybe that's how it's done, but I believe that treating the fish like a living thing and not an object is important.
On seperate ocasions I've seen the fish being dropped because of carelessness, there are usually no more than 48 fish being brought in, there really is no excuse in my opinion. What did it for my partner and I was seeing how the fish were placed on the dry boat dock, to have their fin clipped. I think that is a terrible method of trying to keep track of the fish, but if that's how they do it, at least lay down a piece of plastic and keep it wet to protect the fish. I really hate seeing this being done to bass. I've caught some fish recently and it makes me upset to see they're missing a fin and now they have holes in their dorsal fin, what's the next method that will be used on these fish

[gotafish]

Thanks for confirming the way our fish are treated at Silverwood

[lobinaloca]

Correction, " living creature" and not "living thing" as on my last post.

It's true Tom, these fish are treated without care and I wrote "clipping" because I never stuck around to see how it was done, cutting the fin is most likely even worse. If you were to be left permanently without one of your fingers, having it clipped off would probably suck less than having it cut off. I think it stinks any way you look at it

[Ray L.]

That practice is done by D.F.G. it does not harm the fish. It has been done at D.V.L. all season long.

[BIG L]

If we don't comply with there demands (right or wrong) we lose. I don't agree with the fin cutting at all. We weighed in 2 fish at the last tournament there that had already had 1 fin cut off. I was surprised that there wasn't a red area around the cut, it seems like those 2 had recovered okay. Now the problem will be what do they cut off next time. Is this going to be the same practice at Perris. I guess we will find out next week. Why can't we pay a little extra and have our replacement tournament at night.

[mark poulson]

I don't argue with people's decisions as to how they think their fish should be handled. We need to take care of our resource.
And we all need to follow our own conscience.
But, when you fish a tournament, you agree ahead of time to abide by the rules that tournament organization has in place for that tournament.
If that includes DFG clipping the fins, and you don't agree with that, by all means, lodge your protest of those actions with both the tournament organization and the DFG right then and there, but before you begin fishing, or after the tournment's done.
And don't fish their tournament again without first asking if clipping is a part of it, if that's a real concern to you.
But, once you've decided to participate, deciding to "disobey" tourament or DFG rules during the tournament puts the tournament's ability to function in jeopardy, as the cancellation of the next ABA tournament at that lake shows.
During a tournament is no time to make that kind of a protest.
I dont' think it's fair or right to make unilateral decisions that affect the livelyhood of others, or the chance for others to participate.

[sTony]

Thanks for the clarification but I think there's a lot of irony in your son getting the American Bass permit pulled for this weekend's tournament and then you coming in here and not only trying to justify the act but also take the time to throw some additional stones at the organization while doing so.

If you had problems with DFG practices you likely shouldn't fish tournaments on the lakes where they're going to do this. Not complying is not an option. By the AB rules, specifically rule #20, your kid could have very easily gotten himself temporarily or permanently banned for his actions.

I hope you also realize that DFG could very well have pulled 'all' of American Bass' permits in the entire state for a period of time or permanently based on this action. DFG has that right.

sTony

[STEWART]

I have caught a ton of fish at dvl with their fin clipped.it suprised me a little the first time i saw it.all the fish looked ok to me no sores ,healed up ready to be caught again and again.

[Rob Dickson]

They do the same thing at Perris. When Pat and I had 42 lbs. they cut all their fins. The fish were stressed out enough then they lay them on a boat dock on their side with nothing to protect them. I remember when they had a black tub about 25 gallons of water in it sitting on the hot asphalt in the parking lot and were having people put their fish in it so they could amputate them. Fish were starting to go belly up. I had a 10 lber and they wanted me to put it in there and I wouldn't, I took it down to the water and released it. We get penalized if we mishandle our fish but the dfg is immune. The dfg should have just warned aba, since I have heard now that it is part of the permit that the dfg take possession of the fish. But they apparently are on a power trip.

[sTony]

During the tournament is likely not a good place to make a stand against a DFG policy. I think that's the message that needs to be echoed here.

The result could be devastating to the organization, the TD, and the other competitors. In this instance, the subsequent tournament was canceled. It was the final tournament of the region and now has been rescheduled in September. Had it happened earlier in the schedule it might have been much worse.

I'd suspect that there were other teams ready to fish the May 1 tournament that might not be so happy that now they get to finish off the region 5 months later then expected.

sTony

PS - I would think that American Bass and the TD was expecting to generate some revenue this weekend also.

[2ndsuks]

Tough situation for sure, I can see valid points on both sides of the isle.

I don't think this would not have happened thirty years ago or more but if it had, I’d be willing to bet not a single angler would have questioned the DFG’s authority to confiscate the fish. Most law abiding anglers had respect for the DFG back then but things have changed and people are getting fed up with the endless over regulation in this state. Many feel that if we do not take a firm position and say enough is enough, complacency sets in and we end up where we are today.

If there was a law in place that gave the DFG the right to confiscate fish from a licensed angler, you could bet there would have been a citation issued, instead they use the tournament organizations permit as a wedge to exercise their authority.

On the other hand, a few anglers should not make a sole decision that will ultimately effect the entire organization.

The state is up to something, they don't spend time and our money to count and track fish for our good. I smell a new regulation coming, maybe a reduction in tournaments or another surcharge on tournament bass fishing!

The state of California could care less about the conservation of bass, it's all about revenue.

[Ringer]

Pathetic and totally uncalled for. F&G in every state has used fin clipping and tagging so what was the big deal? Maybe PETA will run a tournament circuit just for you.

[sTony]

From what I understand it's a for a survey they've been running in Socal for some time on several lakes. I've been told they clip a fish once and that's supposed to be it. They don't need to be counted/surveyed again. I don't think it's a conspiracy or big brother thing at all but a normal course of DFG collecting species data, which they do all the time and not just for bass or at bass tournaments.

The DFG has been present at several USAC tournaments this year to doing scale sampling. They chose the pro ams and WRL events because of the size of the fields. They need a fair number of fish to do a proper sampling so a larger field event suits their purposes. I know USAC openly welcomes their attendance at those tournaments and that both orgs have benefited greatly from the experience.

If there are concerns about how the wardens are handling the fish then they should be addressed for sure, but not in the middle of a tournament weigh in. DFG is not anti bass tournaments by any means and they help facilitate what every org out there does in running their events. They're the good guys and I think most would agree they need to be treated with respect and allowed every courtesy.

sTony

[Marc]

Fin clipping (especially the ventral fin on species without an adipose fin) is a standard biological practice to help survey fish populations. It is also used on salmonids along with clipping the adipose fin, and some cases both the ventral and adipose.

Detrimental effects on the health of the fish have not been documented to my knowledge, and spiney-rays like bass are especially hardy and unlikely damaged.

Fisheries biologists have been using this technique around the world for years as a standard practice. I have personally clipped the ventral fin on thousands of trout and salmon when they were only four to five inches in length, and have counted their returns 2-4 years later to their spawning grounds.

ciao,
Marc

[Andrew Jackson]

EVERY DFG - Government Ran Agency - Has Major Issues - Here in Nevada and Arizona and of course California. Clipping a whole fin is ridiculous. To state fish doesn't need it? Chop a finger or leg off. You can still get around. I am absolutely sick of these people instilling their BS and tactics on organizations. What do they do to the public just out fishing? A ticket now and again.
You want controversy call John at Angler's Pro Shop and chat with him about the AZ DFG. He will not say anything bad about them, that's just John, but these people AINT GOT A CLUE. Absolutely sick of them. What's worse is they get paid by you and me.

[adman]

I don't know the answer to this question, so for those of you ready to pounce, back off. Who "owns" fish caught in a tournament? Is it stated in rules that once fish are weighed they become the property of the tournament organization or does "ownership" remain with the angler?

[JigFishermn]

i would say that dfg is as much law enforcement as the po-po that pull you over for speedin on the highway. if they tell you to do something you do it. we dont like it that we have to drive 55 with a trailer, we can go faster if we want but we no what happens. same for the dfg we dont have to do what they tell us but we shouldnt cry when they slap our hands for it. when law enforcement from chp, to local cops, fbi all the way down to the dfg tell you to do something you do it dont ask questions just do what they say.

and by all means if you dont like it making a stand at a tournament is not the place to do it. call the dfg and ask. this thread isnt helping us as anglers with the dfg at all. most of them are good people just doing what they are told and i am sure the biologists there have more nowledge about fish than any of us here. i wont let them tell me how to build houses so i cant expect them to let me tell them how to take care of fisherys

[Schneider Fishing]

I'm thinking that George will create a blog called "So whose fish is it anyways?"

[mark poulson]

George Kramer answered that question on the thread entitled "Silverwood" at the bottom of this page.

[JJCJR]

Scheduled this Sunday evening on Rod and Reel Radio is Larry Botroff, former DFG and San Diego City lakes' biologist. Larry is scheduled to talk about how the largemouth bass got to Southern California and how the original bass that were brought into Lake Otay in the early 60s have been planted in Southland bodies of water you would not have suspected.

We'll also talk about the records Larry has been keeping on largemouth bass for the past 40 years and how over the years he has tagged or clipped bass to keep track of their growth and health.

Dial in to Rod & Reel Radio this Sunday evening starting at 5PM. You can listen to the show live on AM1260 in LA, 540 in San Diego or go to www.RodandReelRadio.com and listen to the broadcast live starting at 5pm Sunday evening. Just in case you want to call in and add your $.02 worth, you can contact us during show hours at 888 458 1260.

See you on the radio.

[blkdog812]

most of the DFG workers doing the studies are not wardens. (warden are a seperate division,) but seasonal workers.
some are college kids with studies in the bio field. most do not receive formal training and were shown by experienced or returning worker, how to clip the fish.
if they did not protect the fish properly, then you need to bring it to their attention nicely.
if they fail to make a correction, then you need to contact their supervisors and work your way up the food chain. state officials and even the news people.
yes there are good and bad in every field, but disregarding their requests was wrong. i would hope they are trying to help the field as they should be and not making a study to destroy our fishery