Policing our tournaments...

Mike · Post by **Mike** » Fri Oct 29, 2010 8:27 am

A few of us tournament guys have been talking for the last couple of years about protecting the integrity of our team tournaments. It is really hard to do. As we hear about people getting caught over the years, we lose more and more teams. Guys telling me that its too easy to cheat in team tournaments and until something it done, they ain't playing.

After many discussions, we have a rule that we think will help a great deal if the tournament organisation would pick it up. What do you Tournament fishermen think?

Before each blast off the TD draws 2-3 chips out of a coffee can with boat numbers on them. These boats will have to take an observer with them for the day. Much like bass Elites and CBC does. They are only there to make sure the rules are followed.

This is just about the only we can think of to make sure the rules are followed. It is way to easy for teams to cheat weather its stuffing weights in fish, having caged fish or having another boat give them fish. What do you guys think? We definitely don't want to single out teams or discriminate, but we want a even playing field for all.

What are your thoughts?

Beat Me, Don't Cheat Me,
Mike

g-man · Post by **g-man** » Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:10 am

I like the idea, but I don't see it happening. Maybe each team can pay an additional fee of a few bucks to compensate the observers? Small price to pay to even the playing field..

Mike · Post by **Mike** » Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:13 am

g-man wrote:I like the idea, but I don't see it happening. Maybe each team can pay an additional fee of a few bucks to compensate the observers? Small price to pay to even the playing field..

compensate the observers?

There is no shortage of people that will go out for the day for free. That wont be a problem.

ASD · Post by **ASD** » Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:16 am

Mike
That's a good idea!
But what do/would you do if a team has a smaller boat that can't hold 3 people because of the weight? Not all teams are fishing out of 20'+ boats. The boat I fish out of can seat 3 but has a weight limit of 600 lb. and my partner and I are not small people. Betwen us we are @ about 525lb so that would only leave 75lb for an observer

Levy · Post by **Levy** » Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:39 am

Mike wrote:
g-man wrote:I like the idea, but I don't see it happening. Maybe each team can pay an additional fee of a few bucks to compensate the observers? Small price to pay to even the playing field..

compensate the observers?

There is no shortage of people that will go out for the day for free. That wont be a problem.

Really?? Who is going to go out for free and just sit around all day while we fish? I can tell you that they will not be making a cast from my boat during a tourny. Also I have a 17 foot bass tracker so space would be tight which could cause other problems.

I am all for stopping cheating and if you could find people who would want to do this I say go for it but I am not sure if this is really practical.

My 2 cents
Jon Levenson

longshot · Post by **longshot** » Fri Oct 29, 2010 10:07 am

I too think this is a GREAT idea BUT we all have to remember that its always going to be give and take or the better of two evils. First off thanks Mike for trying to figure out a way to stop the cheating that goes along with team tournaments. I personally think that we will never stop it but I also dont dwell on it as then they would ruin my fun.
I have a 285 that also has a max of 600lbs that does make it tough to have a 3rd guy in the boat.....
LS

Marty · Post by **Marty** » Fri Oct 29, 2010 10:14 am

Assuming that a team might cheat – what is it to say if they do get drawn to have that third person as an observers they don’t cheat. Then take the chance next time when someone else has the observer.

The only real way to make sure every team on the water does not cheat is to have their own observer – make an each team a three person team. When a team signs up one of the three would have to be an observer on another boat. Each of the three person team would determine who would be the observer. This way each team on the water would have an observer that has a vested interest.

As for the three person team (the way I would do it) is each pay 1/3 of the fees and all three share in the winning – that way you keep the third person part of the team. I would also rotate between the three person team but that is up to the team. Some teams would find a few that will be an observer but once that person finds out the other observers are taking a 1/3 of the winning they will want part of it too.

As for the observer he or she would have to sit in the middle which is not fun and would have to stay out of the way and can’t do nothing to help.

I don’t think all of the teams would like to have the third person on their boat, room and getting in the way would be the problem.

I would think the way to do this is to have each team buy their own security camera set (the ones used to security homes or buildings) the one with 4 lens that you can buy at Costco for about $300. Then they could record there day on the water. If someone accuses them of cheating – then they can go back to the video.

bryanmc · Post by **bryanmc** » Fri Oct 29, 2010 10:55 am

If this is truly what team fishing has come to, I think I'll just quit fishing teams. Sounds to me like you guys are saying cheating is the rule, not the exception. Very sad.

Vernonn · Post by **Vernonn** » Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:45 am

I think a better idea might be to mount a small video camera to the big motor via suction cups. Kind of like what we see on Bassmaster Elite. Doesn't have to broadcast but record the day. Maybe a modified surveilence camera that can record a pic every couple seconds. Hopefully, the shot will be wide enough to show the backseater fishing over the side. But the thought of a camera recording is enough to keep people from thinking about cheating.

-vernon

Gary Dobyns · Post by **Gary Dobyns** » Fri Oct 29, 2010 12:31 pm

Good try Mike. A few have pointed out legit problems. I don't think we have all that many teams cheating. I kinda like the 3 man team idea, but it's hard enough getting 2 guys to fish together in team events any more. 3 man teams 10 fish limit per boat, let's go

$300 entry per boat, this is starting to sound better. Be a few more guys getting "snagged" but we could have a first aid class about removing hooks from heads. The way tournaments are today, we need to try something new to revive interest.

A better idea Mike would be a tail boat that stays close all day.

captjohn71 · Post by **captjohn71** » Fri Oct 29, 2010 12:44 pm

Gary these are all god ideas and valid pionts, I believe that it has to start at the tournament level. I have fished in alot of team stuff hear in so cal wear they did not even inspect my live well. I have a very simple idea why don't some the directors get in a boat and go take a look around during the tournament once in awhile. The only time i have ever seen a director on the water is when he is competeing in his own tournament.

Guy Williams · Post by **Guy Williams** » Fri Oct 29, 2010 2:11 pm

Personally, if I thought I had a person cheating in any form of tournaments I was involved in I would not fish against him or her; period!!! So my best advise would be for everyone, if you think your fishing against a cheater "Don't fish". It's very simple!! BTW, looking through a boat is a very generic way of looking for cheaters. Let's think about how the most recent cheaters that have got caught have done their cheating. Snagging roaming fish, snagging bedding fish, weights inside of fish and possible caged fish. Enforcement of laws would be the best start I can think of and of course an *** kicking of blatant offenders.
Guy Williams

Mike · Post by **Mike** » Fri Oct 29, 2010 3:54 pm

bryanmc wrote:If this is truly what team fishing has come to, I think I'll just quit fishing teams. Sounds to me like you guys are saying cheating is the rule, not the exception. Very sad.

Your not alone. Did you read my post? There are a lot of teams that have fished together for years that have dropped out in the last year or two and I am about to be one of them. I Cant stand the thought of all of the money I have been Fu#@ked out of over the years by cheaters. And when they get caught, they just go away never to be heard of again. It is very hard to catch these guys. You almost have to have them on video to be able to do anything about it. All you can do is confront them and they just pass the torch to the next team in their Posse. I guess we could do it with "tail boats" but then we would have to find someone to donate their time and gas money...

bryanmc · Post by **bryanmc** » Fri Oct 29, 2010 4:08 pm

I did read your post Mike. Things must be different down on the delta. I can't think of any team I've fished against during the 8 years I've lived up here that I would even consider might be cheating. Maybe I'm just naive, I don't know.

Not to dredge up old news, but remember, Hart pulled his stunt with three impartial observers (his AAAs) in his boat with him. I say three because I'd be willing to bet he weighted his day one fish too. I don't think cameras and chase boats and observers are the answer, but honestly, if it's really a problem I don't know what the answer is.

WON BASSIN · Post by **WON BASSIN** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 6:32 am

Mike,

Interesting idea, as well as the others that were added. But I believe the fact that some of these people are being caught and brought to the surface, will enact the other anglers to keep their eyes open a bit wider these days. As mentioned by some others, it is already hard enough to make sure two guys show up, let alone three. Awareness is the key, as well as peer pressure from the remaining anglers. I have been on the water for many of the recent tourneys that we have had in the last few months, and I do believe that our presents on the water has made an impact, but you just can't be everywhere at once. While on the water, we are also able to get video footage, and do on the water interviews. We are working on a new sponsorship deal with a camera company that will provide cameras that will be placed on randomly drawn boats. These cameras will be placed on randomly selected boats to act as eyes in the sky, but more importantly, they will help provide a unique view of what tourney fishing is really all about. If this partnership can be ironed out, it will help provide more visibility for you the anglers and for your sponsors. We need to band together as a group, and work together to fight the fight.

Cooch · Post by **Cooch** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 8:50 am

bryanmc wrote:I did read your post Mike. Things must be different down on the delta. I can't think of any team I've fished against during the 8 years I've lived up here that I would even consider might be cheating. Maybe I'm just naive, I don't know.

It's really no different here Bryan now, than it's always been. For as long as I can remember, the accusations and rumors of cheating teams, has ALWAYS been pointed at the two guys who git on a hot bite and win a bunch of consecutive tournaments, when everyone else here is spinning their heads saying to themselves, "How'd they do that? They gotta be cheating!" This has gone on fer decades here, dating back to the 80s. I could rattle off 6 different teams from then to now, that have been subject to these allocations. Yet in an effort to protect the innocent, I'll just use Sean Sheehan and myself as an example. There was a 4 week period in Feb/Mar of 1994, where he and I got on an incredible jig bite here, we took advantage of it and entered in every single tournament we could find on the River. We won most of those events, on a bad day, we took 2nd or 3rd. Yet by the third week of our dominance, the rumor mill was spreading of how we must have been cheating to achieve such great success.

There has been more accusations of teams cheating here on the Delta when guys stumble on to a monster bite that runs any extended period of time. There has always been those who are certain of it and claim they have the proof, yet never once, has anyone of those making these claims, stepped forward and provided and facts to back their claims. It's kinda disheartening that this continues today, versus guys just accpeting that these teams who have an extended and succesful run, are doing so legitimately, versus the knee jerk responce, "they gotta be cheating, there's no way they can be doing it otherwise".

Mike's idea is certainly a noble one, it's an intersting idea that I believe might be more powerful than the idea of subjecting teams to a Lie Detector to prevent them from cheating. Yet it does create some hurdles as mentioned. I fer one, believe the best way to put it to rest, is to stand up and expose those who ARE cheating, if they indeed exist. If you got the facts, then come forward with em, don't sit there and be a pansy arse and not protect our interests and integrity. You are doing far more damage to the sport with inuendo's, rumors, as well as holding back the facts and truths involving potential cheaters. Exposing those who are cheating, as like what was done with Hart, is the greatest deterant we have in my mind!

mac (Doyle McEwen) · Post by **mac (Doyle McEwen)** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:29 am

Dang it Cooch, they had to be cheating, they were catching fish and I wasn't..Even when I was catching fish, they were catching bigger fish..Now if that isn't cheating, I'd like to know what is..

Unfortunately this is the attitude many people have..No evidence, just they have to be cheating because they weigh in too much, too often..The fact they would place above you 9 times out of 10 doesn't really matter..The fact they did has to be because they weren't playing fair..

I fish tournaments because I enjoy the competition..Competing against those that I deem better fishermen/women than myself is pure fun..It is even more fun when I happen to place above them..It shows me I did something right..Does it mean I am a better fisherperson than they, of course not, I was just better that day..

Now all of this isn't to say there is never any cheating..It happens..If you know it is happening and do nothing about it, you as an individual are just as complicit as the people actually cheating..Suspecting and knowing are two totally different things..Generally if you only suspect, you are better off keeping it to yourself until you have real proof..

mac

RougeBass · Post by **RougeBass** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 11:54 am

Mike Policing ourselves is the best we can do as anglers. When an organization catches a cheater and doesn't do a damm thing about it besides ban him from fishing torunaments is where the problems is in my oppinion. You and I and 99.9% of the guys on here would be devistated if we were banned from fishing but 99.9% of the guys don't cheat. If i did cheat and got caught I would never want to show my face again so banning me from fishing is no real punishment. Botton line here is make examples out of cheater show them what really can happen. I have will not support an organization who will not push for charges on a caught red handed cheater. I got labbled a cry baby for voiceing my oppinion on this before but I take the same stand. There are other ogranization who will handle their business so i feel comfortable fishing with those organizations. And for the records i did fish every Pro/ Am event with WON until the cheating incident.

Leon Pugh · Post by **Leon Pugh** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:02 pm

I really think cheating is more rare than many think. However to put this to rest my suggestion would be to, at half the events re-pair the partners in the teams with a drawing, same partner just fishing with another teams boater. Three fish for each partner, six total. That way your own competition will be keeping a eye on you. Yes there will be be some backseating going on, but just like the old draw events the guy in the back gets the front for half of the day. I will make a wager that the out come regarding the winners will be the same, we will just deflate the doubters balloon. Think about it. In fact I think this could be a very fun format to try out. Might also have some merit to paying top team and top boat.

Bill Roberts · Post by **Bill Roberts** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:13 pm

I think the best idea is to have random polygraphs. All boat numbers go into a can and two teams are drawn to take a polygraph. Quit talking about rules that say they have them and start doing them.
Don't announce who was drawn until weigh-in. You don't have to do every tournament but start doing a few a year not just at the TOC's. Anyone refusing to take one is DQed.

An old cop talking!

Thx Bill Roberts

flipit · Post by **flipit** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 2:04 pm

Personally I like the idea, however some as mentioned cant fit another person in the boat(I only have 2 seats). Then again the tournaments I have fished I have seen nothing to lead me to believe someone is cheating. Not saying it doesnt happen, but the accusations get old without evidence. Bottom line is if I go out and do my job then Ill be there, if I dont I can watch and share in the joy of those that did.

flipit · Post by **flipit** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 2:07 pm

Bill Roberts wrote:I think the best idea is to have random polygraphs. All boat numbers go into a can and two teams are drawn to take a polygraph. Quit talking about rules that say they have them and start doing them.
Don't announce who was drawn until weigh-in. You don't have to do every tournament but start doing a few a year not just at the TOC's. Anyone refusing to take one is DQed.

An old cop talking!

Thx Bill Roberts

This is the best idea so far as Im concerned. However Id like to see those boat numbers drawn from the top 10 for the tournament. Im tired of hearing its expensive, I fished a circuit years ago that charged a fee for this, yet they never did give one.

Leon Pugh · Post by **Leon Pugh** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 2:19 pm

No polygraphs, they are not reliable enough to risk the damage to their reputation if they are innocent.

Bill Roberts · Post by **Bill Roberts** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 2:25 pm

I disagree and so would anyone who's ever taken one! I have taken 6 in my lifetime and they work. Ask Gary Dobyns he taken several.

Bill

Leon Pugh · Post by **Leon Pugh** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 2:34 pm

BIll that is just two people, would you want it on your conscious, destroying a persons life because of a failed polygraph, even one failed test in a thousand would not be exceptable and they are not even accurate to one in ten. I am not so quick to put some one reputation on the line, it is just not worth it. Most of the time is not good enough.

bryanmc · Post by **bryanmc** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 3:10 pm

Well...
I can tell you that my partner and I had a pretty good run 2 years ago. I can also guarantee you that there was no cheating involved. That being said, and the fact that orgs have come forward with policies to eliminate cheating (which tells me that cheating must be rampant in their tournaments) I will no longer fish their team circuits. I will also no longer fish any circuit where the organizations policies or actions indicate that cheating is rampant.

flipit · Post by **flipit** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 3:20 pm

Seems like an odd stance, but then again Im one for an odd stance. Years ago one of the circuits I fished charged a fee, claiming it was for a lie detector test, not that there was anyone caught that Im aware of. I dont mind a stance taken by an org, actually I prefer they do. The fact is that if someone wants to cheat they will most likely fish where there is no cheating stance, atleast that makes more sense. I have fished the same org as long as Ive fished, with some cherry picking of all the others along the way.

Mike · Post by **Mike** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 3:38 pm

bryanmc wrote:Well...
I can tell you that my partner and I had a pretty good run 2 years ago. I can also guarantee you that there was no cheating involved. That being said, and the fact that WON has come forward with policies to eliminate cheating (which tells me that cheating must be rampant in their tournaments) I will no longer fish their team circuits. I will also no longer fish any circuit where the organizations policies or actions indicate that cheating is rampant.

You definitely have a "different" way of thinking. I think Won Bass does a great job with their staff. Not really sure why the couldn't press charges with the Hart Scandal, but I'm sure they have a good reason.

Cooch, There HAS been guys caught red handed WITH witnesses on the Delta, but before you go calling out people in public, you Dam well better have you ducks in a row! Thats why charges rarely happen.

bryanmc · Post by **bryanmc** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 3:51 pm

I guess it's all in how you look at it. If someone tells you that if you go somewhere, everyone is going to try to rip you off, but, we're going to try to keep them from ripping you off, and you still go, who's to blame?

As I said earlier in this thread, I've never considered that someone would cheat. Now that it's been stated that cheating is rampant, why would any sane person want to play?

mac (Doyle McEwen) · Post by **mac (Doyle McEwen)** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 4:27 pm

It5 isn't rampant, but it certainly happens..Anyone that thinks otherwise is naive..

mac

DeltaDan · Post by **DeltaDan** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 11:06 pm

I cought BothA Coochie'coo one night very late while he was having some red vino and posting on another forum.

He posted around 0100 that if someone wanted to fish the begining of the Delta ABA when BrothA Gator ran it ..... to post up. -- He was thinking everyone in there was already asleep !! LOL

I was at work and I called him up at 0110 on the phone !

..He said "fork me -- I did not put that up for real ! ......But my word is my word....Let's go out and help Gator for his 1st tourney."

We met up @ 0612 while I was working 12 hour nights and we just went out fishing togther.

Never have I learned so much and had so much fun in a 80 yard stretch of bank in my life. When we were not getting bit- I took out my bag some blue pork to try instead of the plastic on out jigs. I got bit and then BrothA Coochjie'coo took that bottle from me - and proceded to vaccum up that bank from around 1120 on !!

I believe that I was dancing more in the boat than BrothA Cooch as I said "We are gona get biggest fish monies"

BOOM !!

....Wierdest thing - Cooch looked @ me straight in the eye ....and said "Nope - Bill Sweargin is fishing - and has even a bigger one already" ..... I am thinking to myself ..... WTF ? And come weigh-in ... Bill and his Partner did indeed have a bigger fish !

We did end up being the overall winner that tourney with #28+ pounds ..... Then Cooch said we have to back it up -- and I get to fish with again next month on that same stretch of bank all day long. ~~~ And we won again with #26 pounds !!

Short story ..... Chit HappenZ !! And we fished the rest of the year togther and the ABA Classic @ ClearLake.

Thank god for red wine and very late night postings !!!

I remember clearly leaving the parking lot of Russos after the 2and tourney ..... being the last one out ~~ while cranking whatever song was on 104.1 The Hawk -- and singing @ full voice the entire drive home !!!!

Yes- Magic does happen !! ..... and not everyone takes a short-cut. ....Some people just know what they are doing... And they do it very VERY Well !!

619 · Post by **619** » Sun Oct 31, 2010 6:22 am

RougeBass wrote "When an organization catches a cheater and doesn't do a damm thing about it besides ban him from fishing torunaments is where the problems is"

I think the guy drove home. I don't think he was even arrested. Can you still press charges after he leaves the scene?

When I would look at his record every month and see that he was winning everything he fished. I said "get a f---ing clue guys". To many variables, no impossible way this can happen. Down equipment, Bad draw whatever not possible with our small lakes. When I was scanning the US Open first day results and saw his name I said maybee he is legit, Thinking that if he wasn't legit he wouldn't be fishin a pro am, can't cheat with someone in the boat. I was wrong and guess what it opened up some eyes. Don't think this guy was putting sinkers in fish to win at Casitas or Castaic or wherever he fished he just figured out a way to steal in that event.

Cages, BYOB (Bring your own bass), Bluegill, Liveshad (caught at lake during tournament), even trout. Cheaters what did I miss? I know you are reading this.

I feel for the tournament directors, Hard to monitor and cover all bases. These guys are reading everything we write and are figuring out a way to continue there shitty ways. Lie Detectors and staff boats with Bino's. Have a precence on the water. On water inspections. Tough deal I know but the org. that work the hardest for us will get the numbers.

I like what Guy said.

Terry G. · Post by **Terry G.** » Sun Oct 31, 2010 7:34 am

Mike,
This is a great topic. And, you can tell by the long post that folks have very valid opinions and concerns regarding the cheating issue. The observer issue has several concerns. The biggest is confidentiality. If an observer goes with someone who is on big fish, and has one or two hot spots on a lake how do you ensure they don't share the info with their buddies later? A third person in the boat has personal needs, what happens when they need a restroom break when the teams on fish? Just sort of complicates the issue some what.

I don't believe cheating is rampant. I do believe the "chatter" regarding cheating is rampant. That's not a bad thing. it just shows concern. We need to focus on a solution that would deter cheating without complicating the directors ability to put on a good tournament.

Here's a thought: All trails charge a $5 dollar fee. They hire a "Water snitch (WS)." The water snitch (ws) will review the trails history and will show up at an event and follow one of the designated boat/s throughout the tournament. The director will not have any say about who is followed thereby keeping personal relationships intact. The WS will have to sign and adhere to a confidentiality disclosure. The WS will make the determination on who to follow by reviewing past wins, a Teams history, and only the money winners will be eligible for a tail. The WS must be polite, maintain a safe distance, and have appropriate optics for close observation purposes.

The ws can show up at any tournament, at any time and follow any boat that meets the observation guidelines.
The WS will be required to give all owners of all the participating tournament circuits a report detailing why he/she determined a team should be followed and what the results were. The owners will then have to take action as they deem appropriate.

Keep it respectful, polite, and up front and I don't think there would be Major concerns by the guys/ gals who invest lots of dollars to get on fish and maintain their competitiveness.

Just a thought.

BTW: The picture of Cooch ain't right. I thought what happened on the Delta stayed on the Delta? Hmmm, hope I never break down on the delta, especially after dark

great fish cooch.

Terry G.

619 · Post by **619** » Sun Oct 31, 2010 8:26 am

I like it....we need water sniches.. great idea

Marty · Post by **Marty** » Sun Oct 31, 2010 10:25 am

"Water Snitches"?

There are elements in life that no matter what you do to prevent will still cheat. You will find them in all walks of society and Bass Fishing is no different. But Bass Fishing is one of the least of them. Looking at the number of tournaments that are held and the number of persons caught or accused the numbers are very small compared to the rest of society.

As the rest of society, we as Bass Fisherman have our petite squabbles and our jealousies but as a whole I trust the ones I fish with. But to make follow Bass Fisherman Snitches is the end of Bass Fishing that I grew up with.

There are certain vales that are inherit in Bass Fishing and one of them is our name and what that name means to the rest of us. To date that is best deterrent to cheating we have and the protection of that name.

Terry G. · Post by **Terry G.** » Sun Oct 31, 2010 11:34 am

Ok Marty,
How about something softer like Boat Marshalls, or Water fairies.
Check?
See u n Feb. @Clear lake

Marty · Post by **Marty** » Sun Oct 31, 2010 12:12 pm

Yes – Water Marshall’s would be a little more tolerable but they would still be Water Fairies - LOL
Maybe I just too old school to think of my follow Bass Fisherman are low down cheaters. That would make my picking of my friends wrong and I don’t feel that way.

For all of you out there wounding what did Terry mean by “Check?” We were fishing a team Tournament together and made a bet of one dollar each for “First Fish”, “Big Fish” and the “Most Fish”. Well he won with a little 12 inches fish he caught drop shot’ing while I was fishing with a swim bait and punching (the man way of fishing). I have tried a number of times of paying cash to him but he wants a check for $3.00 so he can put it on the wall under my photograph.

I will be there at Clear Lake in Feb to win my money back - LOL

Mike · Post by **Mike** » Sun Oct 31, 2010 2:08 pm

You are very Naive Marty.

Vince Borges · Post by **Vince Borges** » Sun Oct 31, 2010 2:16 pm

The problem is that there are sooo many ways to cheat! Espeacialy on the Delta! One day I was fishing a row of old dock post, I saw a ring eye screw with a thin white rope tied to it, I didn't think anything of it because people with small boats are always tying up to stay in place. Then I see the rope go around the pole. I pulled it up about 6' and at the end is one if the metal clips like the chain stringers have with a 6lb fish on the end. So after going down the whole row of about 12 posts there were a total of 8 stringers, 4 with fish!!!! All over 5 lbs! I let the fish go, left the stringers there, and called DFG. My first mistake was letting the fish go! They said they could have tagged the fish with trackers. The next weekend, all the stringers were gone! So who knows whether DFG went out and got them or if the guys that put them there realized that someone had found there fish. It made me sick to my stomach to see it. Thank god it was a minus tide or I probably would have fished right by them and never new it. So if you see something like that or caged fish, just leave them, call DFG, and ask them what they want you to do. Those that want to cheat will ALWAYS find ways to do it.

Marty · Post by **Marty** » Sun Oct 31, 2010 6:38 pm

Mike wrote:You are very Naive Marty.

Naïve you call me Mike - LOL – if that is the case what makes you so ware? Can you name who is cheating or is it you want someone else to do it for you? If I though someone was cheating I would call them on it by name, if my beliefs were that strong. Even if I suspected someone of cheating I would still face them and call them on it.

No, I put a lot of this down too petite squabbles and our jealousies of others. This reply is not meant to offend you!

Cooch · Post by **Cooch** » Sun Oct 31, 2010 8:06 pm

Mike wrote:Cooch, There HAS been guys caught red handed WITH witnesses on the Delta, but before you go calling out people in public, you Dam well better have you ducks in a row! Thats why charges rarely happen.

And there in lies the problem Mike! We git all this talk of guys being caught "red handed" here, yet I only know of one team that got caught red handed in a FPT event a few years back that actually got DQ'd. Shame on the guys who are catching these "red handed" cheaters, and not reporting them! Lord knows, I've heard all the rumors here the past 20 years, and only that one time to my recolection has anyone had the balls to step up and call out the cheater, and that was that FPT event out of Brannon Island. You don't need to have yer ducks in a row. You see someone cheating, you report it to the TD, and let them make the decission, period, end of conversation. Nothing can happen to you and I for filing a protest, when we believe someone is cheating. When we see crap like this and don't follow thru to preserve the integrity of our sport, we're doing our sport no greater service than the guy who may be getting away with cheating.

The reason why charges or DQ's rarely happens are two fold. First, guys don't have the balls to stand up and file the protest. Secondly, the tourney orgs tend to always take the side of the angler being accused. That's not on you or me if they don't act correctly. but it sure servers a purpose to the accused, for they full well know they are being monitored from that point on! It goes back to the earlier discussion where guys have said we need to police ourselves as often as possible. If we don't, cause we think we don't have "all our ducks in a row", shame on us fer not stepping to the plate to make a difference.

Mike · Post by **Mike** » Sun Oct 31, 2010 8:17 pm

Bottom line is, you cant call out someone or file a protest with out Proof. Second hand info and my word against yours aint good enough and just might land you (me) in a slander law suit. So..................................... You better have your ducks in a row.

Cooch · Post by **Cooch** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 7:04 am

Mike wrote:Bottom line is, you cant call out someone or file a protest with out Proof. Second hand info and my word against yours aint good enough and just might land you (me) in a slander law suit. So..................................... You better have your ducks in a row.

So what I read into this Mike is, ya basically don't have the proof that someone is cheating. If ya don't have the proof, what's all the fuss? And that's precisely what I'm saying has gone on here for years. Guys git on a roll, then all of a sudden there are all these accusations, rumors, hearsay and second hand info, that they must be cheating, when infact, nobody has any proof to support the claims. This brings a whole new meaning to the old fishing adage of "Fishing Chicken". We can't keep running around like Chicken Little claiming the sky is falling or hollaring WOLF.

I guess that's one area where you and me differ buddy. If I see someone cheating, that's my proof, and I could care less about someone threatening me with a possible law suit for slander. My word and integredity is solid enough that it's all I need to file a protest or contact a Tournament Directly personally. I've done it twice over the years, once in a Pro Am at Pedro, and as recent as last year with an FLW event here, one that I wasn't even in! What decission comes from those TDs, is not on me. I am certainly not concerned about a "slander suite", if I know I saw someone cheating and reported it. My intent is not to slander the person, but infact report a violation of the rules, and protect the integrity of the sport. I'll take my chances with that in a court of law any day. For me, that is the bottom line.

Andy Lippert · Post by **Andy Lippert** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 7:17 am

I, for one, agree with Mike. There is definitely something that needs to be done, and the tail-boat and/or random draw for a watcher (while it has it's own problems) will definitely deter people from cheating. Plain and simple.

On to exposing people who have cheated....

Cooch, you said:

I fer one, believe the best way to put it to rest, is to stand up and expose those who ARE cheating, if they indeed exist. If you got the facts, then come forward with em, don't sit there and be a pansy arse and not protect our interests and integrity. You are doing far more damage to the sport with inuendo's, rumors, as well as holding back the facts and truths involving potential cheaters. Exposing those who are cheating, as like what was done with Hart, is the greatest deterant we have in my mind!

Howcome there was a delta team that used to dominate the river for decades that disappeared off the face of the Earth as far as tournaments are concerned, and you have deleted threads and posts everytime someone has brought it up in the past couple of years? If, indeed, the accusations and speculation are false, as they may be, why hasn't there been any clarification as to what actually happened or denial on the part of those accused? I don't know how you can make a statement like the one I just quoted as saying, with the stance that you've taken pertaining to that certain team, as a moderator on this forum and a friend of those who have been accused. I'm just sayin....

Andy Lippert

mac (Doyle McEwen) · Post by **mac (Doyle McEwen)** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 8:09 am

Are there cheaters in some of our tournaments, there probably are, does cheating happen in every tournament, probably not..But if you were to ask if rules violations occur in every tournament, I would probably have to say yes..Intentional or unintentional I am sure all of us have either seen it happen or committed the offenses..Although I don't consider some rules violations as actual cheating (no real advantage being derived) they are still infractions and either could or would and should earn DQ's..Failure to report rules violations, be they just infractions or actual cheating makes you just as liable as the offenders..

Chances are most of us have been taught at a young age that no one likes a tattle tale..Because of this most are reluctant to make a protest..We just don't want to be known as pot stirrers or cry babies..But it certainly doesn't stop us from talking about it, it just stops us from talking to those that can actually do something about it..Part of the problem is due to the requirement the protest must be in writting and must be presented to the tournament director within a specified period of time, yet there rarely is pen and paper handy at the weigh in for that purpose..Even if there were most would pass it by and just complain to their friends later..

I honestly cannot recall ever having wittnessed actual cheating, although I have seen some rules infractions..Yes, I am guilty of not reporting them, primarily because I did not recognize the offenders at the time and it would have been useless to say the guy running a white Skeeter ran through a 5 zone when there was more than one white Skeeter entered into the event..Short of everyone having easily identifiable boat wraps, I do not know how to remedy this situation..

I do know that if I truly knew or suspected a team or an individual of cheating I would be very reluctant to fish an event they were participating in..

mac

Cooch · Post by **Cooch** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 8:15 am

Andy Lippert wrote:How come there was a delta team that used to dominate the river for decades that disappeared off the face of the Earth as far as tournaments are concerned, and you have deleted threads and posts everytime someone has brought it up in the past couple of years? If, indeed, the accusations and speculation are false, as they may be, why hasn't there been any clarification as to what actually happened or denial on the part of those accused? I don't know how you can make a statement like the one I just quoted as saying, with the stance that you've taken pertaining to that certain team, as a moderator on this forum and a friend of those who have been accused. I'm just sayin.... Andy Lippert

Andy, you are the DR of Spin! LMAO! Let me play your game here. If these supposed dominating teams were cheating, how come those who saw or accused them of such actions, never stood up like men and made them public or protested them right then and there? How in the hell do you expect anyone, to Clarify something that didn't happen, 10-20 years ago, or however long ago it might have been? More importantly, there has NEVER been a team on this Delta, that has dominated for Decades, as you stated. This is precisely the kind of bogus statements, that have no merit here. Lastly, what's so hard to understand about me saying, "If you see or witness someone cheating, report it to the TD, org or whomever it needs to be reported to at the event and expose the cheaters. It is my opinion, this is one of the strongest ways for us to prevent it from happening."?

Our jobs as moderators here, is to assure that the posts and threads on this Forum, meet and follow the rules as layed out in our posting policies. Rest assured, if I delete a post here, it failed to do so, and has absolutely nothing to do with who is my friend or not. Over the years, I have indeed deleted posts that have been directed at specific individuals who were accused of cheating. Some friends, others not. Some factually true, others still rumors. You claiming so strongly, that I have deleted posts "everytime", is not fact, I have let a lot of those posts ride, not ta leave out, other moderators here have deleted them as well as me. We believe, this Forum is not the place for such discussions.

Lastly, and I am just saying....... with all honesty, I have no idea as to which team it is that you are referring to above. Isn't it very possible, that people disappear off the face of the Earth as you put it, because they were constantly chastised for something they didn't do? What about Divorce, Cancer, heart attachs, strokes, they die or experience a death in the family. Maybe they loose their job or are forced to move, or have an issue with the IRS. Isn't it more likely people move on from bass fishing, due to "life's changes", versus they may or may not be cheating? I'm just sayin.......

Terry Smith · Post by **Terry Smith** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 8:42 am

I'd have to say most move on because of family and life. I have A family member " Bob Trippe " that loves bassfishing and decided to spend more time with the wife and kids than fish tournaments anymore. YES he misses it but not as much as he would miss the stuff he is doing with his family!!!!!!!

Levy · Post by **Levy** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 8:54 am

Cooch wrote:So what I read into this Mike is, ya basically don't have the proof that someone is cheating. If ya don't have the proof, what's all the fuss? And that's precisely what I'm saying has gone on here for years. Guys git on a roll, then all of a sudden there are all these accusations, rumors, hearsay and second hand info, that they must be cheating, when infact, nobody has any proof to support the claims. This brings a whole new meaning to the old fishing adage of "Fishing Chicken". We can't keep running around like Chicken Little claiming the sky is falling or hollaring WOLF.

Fishing Chicken is right. Life is too short to worry about things that can't be controlled. Get out there enter those events and fish, just keep a eye open for suspicious activity and report what you see if something is not right.

I never have nor will I enter into a tournament where I feel that cheating is occuring or not being addressed by the org if a complaint was made. Over the past 5 years of tourny fishing I have never had a issue.

Andy Lippert · Post by **Andy Lippert** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:23 am

Lastly, and I am just saying....... with all honesty, I have no idea as to which team it is that you are referring to above. Isn't it very possible, that people disappear off the face of the Earth as you put it, because they were constantly chastised for something they didn't do? What about Divorce, Cancer, heart attachs, strokes, they die or experience a death in the family. Maybe they loose their job or are forced to move, or have an issue with the IRS. Isn't it more likely people move on from bass fishing, due to "life's changes", versus they may or may not be cheating? I'm just sayin.......

Ok Cooch, using simple inductive reasoning, I have concluded that there is a better chance that the said person(s) were cheating than not (based on what I've heard). Since you seem to not know what I'm talking about, let's see if any of this rings a bell....Tell me if I'm wrong on how any this played out...

1. Said angler fishes a pro-am style tournament on the river. He catches a few really nice fish (maybe even a limit) from behind a certain dock in a really precise small area.
2. Co-angler is suspicious about said dock and area, so he tells a pretty well known friend of his who is also fishing the tournament about what transpired and his suspicions of the dock they where said angler caught nice fish.
3. Co-angler and friend go back to said dock and find a fish holding contraption/cage/barrel, they take pictures and remove the device.
4. Friend of co-angler confronts the pro who caught the fish out of found device and tells said angler that if he ever sees him fishing another tournament again, he will 'out' him, publicly.
5. Said angler and team partner never fish another tournament again after that event, even though they used to fish tournaments almost weekly on the delta.
6. Said anglers never come out and publicly deny or try and clear their names of the supposed events that transpired. It just remains a delta mystery as to what happened.
7. Friend of said anglers (who moderates this forum) deletes posts and locks down threads pertaining to the event that took place and the supposed allegations.

I was always taught that if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it sure as hell isn't a tiger. I could very well be wrong about any of this and the events may not be written EXACTLY as they happened(we've all played the game of telephone), as this is only something I have heard from dozens of different people.

Oh, and here's a thread that you locked down, pertaining to the matter in question. It's too bad that you had to 'clean' it up before you locked it down.

http://www.westernbass.com/forum/viewto ... 3&start=50

Andy Lippert Aka the Dr of Spin. (thanks Cooch)

Terry Smith · Post by **Terry Smith** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:54 am

Why didn't Co-angler turn in guy to the TD????

Tags

Notice