GOP Blocks One-Year Unemployment Extension, Wants Spending-C

[Greg_Cornish]

People flock to California whether it's business or pleasure. Your joking right?I don't know about pleasure but business.Business are running out of hear as fast as they can thanks to taxes and all other crap they have to put up with.

Who's leaving?

[Ringer]

Here is a short list from one article.

Abraxis Health (Los Angeles), Apple Computer, Assurant Inc. (Orange County), Automobile Club of Southern California, Bazz Houston Co. (Garden Grove), Beckman Coulter (Brea), BPI Labs (Sacramento), CalPortland Cement (Riverside County), Checks To-Go, Creators Syndicate (L.A.), DaVita Inc. (L.A.), Digital Domain (Venice), Ditech (Costa Mesa), DuPont Fabros Technology (Santa Clara), eBay (San Jose), Edwards Lifesciences (Irvine), Facebook (Palo Alto), FallLine Corporation (Huntington Beach), Fidelity National Financial (Santa Barbara), First American Corp.(Santa Ana), Fluor Corp. (Aliso Viejo), Hilton Hotels Corp. (Beverly Hills), Intel Corporation (Santa Clara), Intuit (Mountain View), J.C. Penny (Sacramento), Knight Protective Industries, Kulicke & Soffa Industries, Inc. (Irvine), Lennox Hearth Products Inc. (Orange), MiaSolA (Silicon Valley), Patmont Motor Werks, Inc., Pixel Magic (Toluca Lake), Premier Inc. (San Diego), Pro Cal of South Gate, Red Truck Fire & Safety Company (Fresno), Simple Tech (Santa Ana), Solar World (Camarillo), Special Devices Inc. (Moorpark), StarKist, Stasis Engineering (Sonoma County), Tapmatic (Orange County), Telmar Network Technology Inc. (Irvine), Terremark (Santa Clara), Terumo Cardiovascular Systems (Orange County), Toyota (Fremont), True Games Interactive (Irvine), Twentieth Century Props of L.A., U.S. Airways (Orange County), US Press (L.A.), USAA Insurance (Sacramento), Yahoo.

[fun4fish]

A scalpel will only give polititians who survive by promising more entitlement time to retool their game plan.
It will allow a long drawn out process of huge confusing bills that will in the end just say one thing and do the opposite, as usual.

That's OK. It's coming to an end, one way or another.

There is some truth to that no question.

People flock to California whether it's business or pleasure. Your joking right?I don't know about pleasure but business.Business are running out of hear as fast as they can thanks to taxes and all other crap they have to put up with.

How would you explain the bay area being in the top 5 most expensive places to live in the country then?

That being said I do realize there are numbers of people leaving because of the gridlock in Sac.

[Grumpy]

Here is a more comprehensive list covering last few years. Also, these lists contain larger and more high profile business's not the thousands maybe tens of thousands of little guys who closed shop and took off. Its important to see who has left over the last few years because new business's have not moved in to take their places. The voters in this state continue to push it over the cliff.

http://thebusinessrelocationcoach.blogs ... st_15.html

[Ringer]

I think it is a shame but we are benefitting here in AZ. Our unemployment numbers have dropped 2 months in a row in spite of the damage housing did here. I would think people that actually work and pay taxes in the biggest welfare state in the country would be voting in fiscal conservatives but looks like that is not the case. I would guess that the number of voters who benefit from government programs or jobs is now greater than those who pay the load. Not good.

[2ndsuks]

I would guess that the number of voters who benefit from government programs or jobs is now greater than those who pay the load. Not good.

Exactly, the takers now outnumber the givers. I have no idea what the "gridlock" in Sacramento has to do with it, but I it comes down to fiscal responsibility and that's something the democrats who've been running California for the last forty years do not have. What's sad is the millions of clueless sheep that keep voting these liberal morons back into office, do they expect different results?

[Vince E]

When it comes to and surpasses the point where there are more givers than takers it is fair to call the givers who refuse to accept that only hard reality will ever begin to cause the ones voting this in to reconsider their position the morons.
If the givers think they can change the minds of those milking the system through argument they are crazy.
Even when reality breaks the larger number of these people will still be blaming scapegoats instead of their own denial of economic reality.
If we had any stones, and any commitment to the idea of the Republic the FF had in mind, we would be voting with our feet and taking our capital with us, just like so many others are doing.
Lets see how well it works when say 75% are on the pure consumption side of the equation in CA and other states are doing fine.
That is if the overreaching federal govt doesn't force all states into a CA/NY model first.

[Marty]

That being said I do realize there are numbers of people leaving because of the gridlock in Sac.

December 05, 2010, 11:54 AM
My guess is that the loss of jobs caused by the policies and taxes of Arnold will last for at least another couple of years. Maybe Jerry Brown will stop the losses--but I doubt it.

"Valley Towing Products, which has made parts of trailers and towing systems in Lodi since 1947, will shut down in January, throwing 64 employees out of work.

Some of the work will be moved to a manufacturing plant in San Luis Potosi, Mexico, owned by parent company Revstone Industries LLC of Lexington, Ky., and other work will be moved to Dallas, Texas, to a new warehouse.

“It’s highly due to economic circumstances,” says Pete Borum, a spokesman for Revstone. “It was losing money.”

It is government policies killing California. When will we fight back?

[Marty]

That being said I do realize there are numbers of people leaving because of the gridlock in Sac.

December 05, 2010, 11:12 AM
The rest of the nation understands that California is a carcass ready to be picked.

"But according to Somer Hollingsworth of the Nevada Development Authority, that makes California “even more fair game.”

Texas in particular has been busy scouring California for companies tired of high taxes and unpredictable regulations, and analysts see the Lone Star State as a lodestar for new GOP-led states eager to spur business.

“You can’t argue with success,” said Jonathan Williams of the American Legislative Exchange Council, noting Texas has weathered the recession far better than California, in part because of its aggressive business recruiting. Texas’ October jobless rate was 8.1 percent. California’s was 12.4 percent."

High taxes, acceptance and promotion of illegal aliens, unions owning government, Right to Work states (states that do not demand workers pay bribes to unions) will continue to poach our businesses and jobs.

When will we revolt like the rest of the nations? 2012?

[Marty]

As funny as it sounds UE is actually one of the fastest ways to direct stimulus to our economy.

What is even funnier is everyone quit their jobs to stimulus the economy! You need to get a different source for you cool aid!

Don't twist the context of my words.

I heard this from one of the disgruntled Liberals at work today – she said how dumb does Pelosi think we are – she thinks extending Unemployment is going be stimulus to our economy. Well what happen to the last two years, we had over 9% Unemployment and our economy still sucks.

[Greg_Cornish]

If anyone truly believes unemployment is only 9-10"% their are living in dream land. I bet its closer to 20 than 10.

[fun4fish]

I heard this from one of the disgruntled Liberals at work today – she said how dumb does Pelosi think we are – she thinks extending Unemployment is going be stimulus to our economy. Well what happen to the last two years, we had over 9% Unemployment and our economy still sucks.

Point is it's short term stimulus for either the person out of work,business on the receiving end,landlord,etc... In other words the money goes "directly" into circulation. It's not the answer to our problems, sorry if that's what you got out of my post.

That being said it looks like the GOP's are getting their way and they're going to extend unemployment to those that are "below" 99 weeks that were caught in one of the many the loopholes.

[Marty]

I heard this from one of the disgruntled Liberals at work today – she said how dumb does Pelosi think we are – she thinks extending Unemployment is going be stimulus to our economy. Well what happen to the last two years, we had over 9% Unemployment and our economy still sucks.

Point is it's short term stimulus for either the person out of work,business on the receiving end,landlord,etc... In other words the money goes "directly" into circulation. It's not the answer to our problems, sorry if that's what you got out of my post.

That being said it looks like the GOP's are getting their way and they're going to extend unemployment to those that are "below" 99 weeks that were caught in one of the many the loopholes.

NO F4F, as this thread progress you changed and soften your lexis. The same way Obama did. Obama has to do something now with his 111th Congress because if he does not, my 112th Congress is going to bend him over. No, we are not getting our way – I’m hoping nothing happens until after Christmas. If this pass SS is going to lose 2% from each employee (that is bad for the country – where are we going to make up the money?). It is bad enough we are going extend unemployment but Obama is going to put us more in debit – when he should be cutting some other program to pay for it. (come on and surprise he and say ‘How about the military).

[fun4fish]

NO F4F, as this thread progress you changed and soften your lexis. The same way Obama did. Obama has to do something now with his 111th Congress because if he does not, my 112th Congress is going to bend him over. No, we are not getting our way – I’m hoping nothing happens until after Christmas. If this pass SS is going to lose 2% from each employee (that is bad for the country – where are we going to make up the money?). It is bad enough we are going extend unemployment but Obama is going to put us more in debit – when he should be cutting some other program to pay for it. (come on and surprise he and say ‘How about the military).

I'm not as liberal as you think Marty, but perhaps a bit more rational? Just because I'm for extending this round of unemployment it doesn't mean I want to inevitably nor drive a bio diesel car and grow grass in my spare room. Problem with many simple minded people on the right is they lack vision and end up talking "at" the other person because talking "with" someone means compromise.

The GOP's are getting tax cuts for the rich after holding the unemployed hostage for months, and that is why they didn't pass the extensions prior to the elections (that and it would have tarnished their record). Which party do you think is more anti social security? They saw it coming and knew Obama would be the scapegoat. What's ironic is I'm sure they will be waving their SS pickets come 2012! Where should we cut spending to make up for it? Well the govt can start auctioning off all that unused land for starters, figure out a taxable plan for temp illegals and cut funding to both American born illegals and illegals, cut unnecessary govt employees,bring back domestic manufacturing,build work camps for the homeless(before they choose to commit a crime to get INTO prison), lower the legal working age and at least allow teens to work part time,legalize marijuana/hemp.... care to add any or just complain?

[2ndsuks]

DEMOCRATS HOLD MIDDLE CLASS HOSTAGE!

Senate Democrat leaders are not yet willing to release all of their legislative hostages despite the GOP's agreement to pay ransom in the form of unemployment extensions. While Republicans seek tax cut for all, their political counterparts remain insistent on raising taxes on the Americans who earn over $250,000 and provide jobs.

The rhetoric on the left is borderline insanity, do they really believe the average person buys a word they are saying. It makes me sick when I hear their pathetic appeals to humanity, they must think this is the 1960s and people are still politically naive. These weasels would sell their own family for a block vote.

[Marty]

After working 12 hour day I’m going to take time to answer you

I'm not as liberal as you think Marty, but perhaps a bit more rational?

I would take you more serious if you were not so terrified of using your real name but how do you take a person call “Fun4Fish” as coherent? Note in any of our discussions I have never back down as being a conservative because I base my conservatism on vales and principles. Now you are telling us you’re not as liberal as we think? What do you base your Liberalism on?

Problem with many simple minded people on the right is they lack vision and end up talking "at" the other person because talking "with" someone means compromise.

Again it is hard not talking “at” a person that only goes by “F4F”, if you want to have a discussion on “with” level, you need to come out of concealment. As for me being simple minded, that maybe but you are the one keeping the dialog going, so who is simpler?

The GOP's are getting tax cuts for the rich after holding the unemployed hostage for months, and that is why they didn't pass the extensions prior to the elections (that and it would have tarnished their record).

Again, it is not a tax cut – there was no change in the tax rate! Again you’re spinning the words. As for holding the unemployed hostage, they should never have place themselves in that position. The one that really need help are the ones over the 99 weeks. Those never receive nothing, no help. Why are you not jumping up and down for them? By the way that is the plan Obama came with. As for not passing the extensions prior to the election was the Democrats not supporting Obama 6 months ago. Obama wanted this fight way before the election.

Which party do you think is more anti social security?

Neither! Bush tried to change social security and the Republican did not back him up and the Democrats are the same way.

Where should we cut spending to make up for it?

I have said many time what needs to be cut – but you don’t want my medicine.
You really want to cut spending and put a ceiling on debt. Please note I’m not attracting anyone just the problem.

1. To make the current budget, congress will have to go back to the last three years of income revenues collected. Take the average of the three and that would be the current budget.
2. The budget cannot include any funds from social security or transportation taxes collated for sale of Gas.
3. 10% of the budget has to go to debt.
4. 10% of the budget has to go into an emergence fund that needs ¾ vote of both houses to use.

That was the budget now we have to cut Government.

1. All Congressmen can only have a staff of two – it does not matter how long they have been in office.
2. Enforce our current Immigration laws and if any City or State does not enforce the Immigration laws all Federal funding is stopped.
3. Reform Campaign Financing laws – make them like our current tax laws – graduate! Since the number everyone is going after is $250K, let start with that number. The main idea is to tie Campaign Financing with the debt. If anyone is running for office they can spend anything they want on their campaign. If they spend more than $250K, the amount over the $250K, a percentage (25% for the next $250K) will go to paying the debt of our country. This will be graduated anything over the first $250K, $500k = 30%, $750k = 40%, 1 million = 50%, 2M = 60%, 3M = 70%, 4M = 80%, 5M = 90%. Any funds going into the campaign from any source (NRA, Unions) will fall into the “Campaign Financing Graduated System”. So if a person spend 13M to get into office, they have to pay $11.1 million to the debt. Once the debt is paid off the money will go into the emergence fund. Any individual running for office violates the “Campaign Financing Graduated System” by one cent will be disqualified and serve a 5 year prison sentence.
4. Recall all Unspent TARR and Stimulus moneys. (why did they not use this money to pay for the additional year of unemployment)
5. Any Company taking TARR and Stimulus moneys has five years to pay it back or have their assists sized and sold.
6. Repeal Obamacare
7. Repeal any Corporate Welfare
8. Close down the Federal Department of Education (each State has their own Education Department). The State can set their own standards.
9. Remove any useless Cabinet Agencies – also there should be no need for Czars – remove each one.
10. When someone goes on Welfare, they have to test to see at what level they function at. If it is not high enough for today’s work environment, they have to take training or go back to school.
11. The debt ceiling should not go up one dime, in fact it should be reduced to what the public debt is!
12. No Salary Increases for Federal Workers along with reducing by 20%. Federal Workers should not get anything better then our military.
13. I could go on for days with this!

[fun4fish]

After working 12 hour day I’m going to take time to answer you

I'm not as liberal as you think Marty, but perhaps a bit more rational?

I would take you more serious if you were not so terrified of using your real name but how do you take a person call “Fun4Fish” as coherent? Note in any of our discussions I have never back down as being a conservative because I base my conservatism on vales and principles. Now you are telling us you’re not as liberal as we think? What do you base your Liberalism on?

It is what it is Marty you either deal with it and continue our dialogue in a mature manner or you can just not respond to me.

No one is backing down I've always thought I was closer to the middle than the left, but sympathize with certain left issues. Conveniently the right is getting the spotlight by default since we obviously need to cut spending. That doesn't mean what they've preached all along is valid, big difference.

Problem with many simple minded people on the right is they lack vision and end up talking "at" the other person because talking "with" someone means compromise.

Again it is hard not talking “at” a person that only goes by “F4F”, if you want to have a discussion on “with” level, you need to come out of concealment. As for me being simple minded, that maybe but you are the one keeping the dialog going, so who is simpler?

See above response.

The GOP's are getting tax cuts for the rich after holding the unemployed hostage for months, and that is why they didn't pass the extensions prior to the elections (that and it would have tarnished their record).

Again, it is not a tax cut – there was no change in the tax rate! Again you’re spinning the words. As for holding the unemployed hostage, they should never have place themselves in that position. The one that really need help are the ones over the 99 weeks. Those never receive nothing, no help. Why are you not jumping up and down for them? By the way that is the plan Obama came with. As for not passing the extensions prior to the election was the Democrats not supporting Obama 6 months ago. Obama wanted this fight way before the election.

If something is set to expire that doesn't mean it's permanent

The 99'ers have two pieces of legislation but it's been blocked. What most people fail to see is there are all these people caught in the "loophole". People that live in states with less than 10% unemployment, people that expire on certain dates,etc... remember these extensions were written by lawyers.

They tried to pass the extensions 6 months ago but were denied by the party of no.

Which party do you think is more anti social security?

Neither! Bush tried to change social security and the Republican did not back him up and the Democrats are the same way.

We all know how the GOP feels about social security.

Where should we cut spending to make up for it?

I have said many time what needs to be cut – but you don’t want my medicine.
You really want to cut spending and put a ceiling on debt. Please note I’m not attracting anyone just the problem.

1. To make the current budget, congress will have to go back to the last three years of income revenues collected. Take the average of the three and that would be the current budget.
2. The budget cannot include any funds from social security or transportation taxes collated for sale of Gas.
3. 10% of the budget has to go to debt.
4. 10% of the budget has to go into an emergence fund that needs ¾ vote of both houses to use.

That doesn't leave much left in the pot does it? how much % will the military get?

That was the budget now we have to cut Government.

1. All Congressmen can only have a staff of two – it does not matter how long they have been in office.
2. Enforce our current Immigration laws and if any City or State does not enforce the Immigration laws all Federal funding is stopped.
3. Reform Campaign Financing laws – make them like our current tax laws – graduate! Since the number everyone is going after is $250K, let start with that number. The main idea is to tie Campaign Financing with the debt. If anyone is running for office they can spend anything they want on their campaign. If they spend more than $250K, the amount over the $250K, a percentage (25% for the next $250K) will go to paying the debt of our country. This will be graduated anything over the first $250K, $500k = 30%, $750k = 40%, 1 million = 50%, 2M = 60%, 3M = 70%, 4M = 80%, 5M = 90%. Any funds going into the campaign from any source (NRA, Unions) will fall into the “Campaign Financing Graduated System”. So if a person spend 13M to get into office, they have to pay $11.1 million to the debt. Once the debt is paid off the money will go into the emergence fund. Any individual running for office violates the “Campaign Financing Graduated System” by one cent will be disqualified and serve a 5 year prison sentence.
4. Recall all Unspent TARR and Stimulus moneys. (why did they not use this money to pay for the additional year of unemployment)
5. Any Company taking TARR and Stimulus moneys has five years to pay it back or have their assists sized and sold.
6. Repeal Obamacare
7. Repeal any Corporate Welfare
8. Close down the Federal Department of Education (each State has their own Education Department). The State can set their own standards.
9. Remove any useless Cabinet Agencies – also there should be no need for Czars – remove each one.
10. When someone goes on Welfare, they have to test to see at what level they function at. If it is not high enough for today’s work environment, they have to take training or go back to school.
11. The debt ceiling should not go up one dime, in fact it should be reduced to what the public debt is!
12. No Salary Increases for Federal Workers along with reducing by 20%. Federal Workers should not get anything better then our military.
13. I could go on for days with this!

1-3 look good
4) Because they've never had to in the history of unemployment AND the GOP's wanted the Dem's to be holding that bag come election time.
5)agree
6)rewrite
7)agree
8)agree
9)agree
10)who's gonna pay for the training? how about welfare camps to help out the homeless?
11)there's a ceiling?
12)agree

[Marty]

It is what it is Marty you either deal with it and continue our dialogue in a mature manner or you can just not respond to me.

I was answering your query of why we talk “at” you and not “with” you. In fact I’m not even talking to you, I just point out how ridiculous some of your statements are.

I see you agree in lot of what I wrote – there maybe some hope for you!

4) Because they've never had to in the history of unemployment AND the GOP's wanted the Dem's to be holding that bag come election time.

All I wanted is to pay for the additional unemployment with Unspent TARR and Stimulus moneys and not go into debit to cover the cost. As for the Democrats holding the bag – I have to point out the Democrats hold both house that means some Democrats had to cross the line.

10) who's gonna pay for the training? how about welfare camps to help out the homeless?

The tax payer – it is a long term investment that will pay by taking them off unemployment. Really? Welfare camps?

11) there's a ceiling?

I know this – and to pay for the unemployment the ceiling will have to be raised – I’m saying lower to what we own now. The first part of the coming year there will be a vote to raise the debit ceiling.

One last thing on this comment you made early!

Point is it's short term stimulus for either the person out of work, business on the receiving end, landlord, etc... In other words the money goes "directly" into circulation.

If you are saying giving additional unemployment puts money back into the system then why would not leaving the tax rate as is, is not put more money directly into circulation? If it is true for one it has to be true for the other!

[fun4fish]

It is what it is Marty you either deal with it and continue our dialogue in a mature manner or you can just not respond to me.

I was answering your query of why we talk “at” you and not “with” you. In fact I’m not even talking to you, I just point out how ridiculous some of your statements are.
I see you agree in lot of what I wrote – there maybe some hope for you!

So how come you haven't jumped on Grumpy then?

4) Because they've never had to in the history of unemployment AND the GOP's wanted the Dem's to be holding that bag come election time.

All I wanted is to pay for the additional unemployment with Unspent TARR and Stimulus moneys and not go into debit to cover the cost. As for the Democrats holding the bag – I have to point out the Democrats hold both house that means some Democrats had to cross the line.

It's illegal to use TARP funds for UE and the laws would have to be rewritten.

Yes, there was just enough dems that crossed over in the senate to stop this legislation by a vote or two for the last six months. It's eaten up so much time that people lost their voice come election time.

10) who's gonna pay for the training? how about welfare camps to help out the homeless?

The tax payer – it is a long term investment that will pay by taking them off unemployment. Really? Welfare camps?

So how will people eat,pay rent,etc.. while they're going to school?

Put the people on welfare in some kind of part time job to help the growing number of homeless people or unemployed.

11) there's a ceiling?

I know this – and to pay for the unemployment the ceiling will have to be raised – I’m saying lower to what we own now. The first part of the coming year there will be a vote to raise the debit ceiling.

One last thing on this comment you made early!

Point is it's short term stimulus for either the person out of work, business on the receiving end, landlord, etc... In other words the money goes "directly" into circulation.

If you are saying giving additional unemployment puts money back into the system then why would not leaving the tax rate as is, is not put more money directly into circulation? If it is true for one it has to be true for the other!

it would, but it would also miss the hands of the unemployed!

[Vince E]

You realize that tax uncertainty, high regulation and general political risk in the form of all types of uncertainty that make forecasting difficult for experts and impossible for the average guy are the source of those unemployed right? What do you treat more aggressively, causes or symptoms?

[fun4fish]

You realize that tax uncertainty, high regulation and general political risk in the form of all types of uncertainty that make forecasting difficult for experts and impossible for the average guy are the source of those unemployed right? What do you treat more aggressively, causes or symptoms?

We need to acknowledge both and hold our govt accountable. It's obvious that we need to trade our current govt for a smaller more efficient one, problem is lawyers ahem I mean politicians are good at dragging things out. While the GOP's are good at touting less govt why is it so hard to understand every congressman? I understand they are all part of the same chess club and are told when and how to move, but c'mon cut the strings already!

[Greg_Cornish]

I know a few millionaires who thought they weren't taxed enough and wouldn't cry if the had to pay a little more. 63% of Americans believe people you make over $250,000 a year should be taxed more. Was talking to one today who said he had quite a few years that he made $250,000 + and didn't expand his business because of any uncertainty of taxes or other factors. He had a business that was making him good money every year and gave him time to fish and only required 2 employees. He just put it in the bank and has more than enough to be comfortable.

People keep saying this economy will be stimulated by small business. That's total bologna. Most small business owners couldn't hit their *** with both hands and are stealing money out of their till to pay their bowling fees. When I was in graphic design doing business cards, letter head etc for start up businesses I bet less than 10% lasted over 2-3 years.

Every time I hear a politician say small business will bring the economy and employment back I just shake my head.

If the Republicans think they will be in power very long I feel sorry for them. People are just voting for the party not in power and the cycle will continue. They are both pigs under the same blanket.

[Vince E]

He just put it in the bank and has more than enough to be comfortable.

Let's look a little closer at that statement. Is "putting it in the bank", hoarding wealth and keeping it out of the general economy? No.
The only way you can really hoard wealth is to continue to collect goods or commodities (this includes gold and silver BTW) and never consume or trade them.
Any other means of storing wealth ends up as an investment which is in turn someone else's venture capital. Unless it is stored in printed fiat currency in which case it just sits there losing value by the minute, but that is just effectively transferring the REAL wealth it supposedly represents to those lucky enough to be first in line for helicopter Ben's next dump and THOSE guys would likely invest in in something that might grow it.

Thing's are not normal (or rather natural) now because there is so much malinvestment that hasn't been cleared (because of prop ups keeping the clearing mechanism = bankruptcy, from happening, inflation wound up but not released yet (same reason = Fed purchased bad debt to prevent those failures by creating M1) and general fear of incurring even more bad debt by banks that lending (for the most part) is NOT happening.
Under these conditions "putting it in the bank" is just being used to shore up inherently insolvent banks and keep inflation's ugly effects from showing through. The Fed, last I checked, was actually encouraging this by paying interest on excess reserves. They could easily stimulate lending by CHARGING interest on excess reserves if they wanted to.
http://www.federalreserve.gov/monetaryp ... lances.htm

Now I don't doubt that a great many small businessmen feel as your friend. I feel that way myself. Of course I may have hired someone a couple of years ago when I was turning away work but the newly adopted Certified Electrician Program made that not only more hassle than I wanted but than should a downturn hit (like it did) you have to lay off someone who has invested a lot of time and money to join an apprenticeship program, something I hate the thought of doing. It wouldn't be so bad laying someone off, who in all likelihood won't find a job in this trade, if they hadn't had to make (and likely lose) the investment.

But anyway, the fact is that if the demand for something is there, for every business that chooses to stay small there will be a place for a new business. One guy (or even many guys) staying small and "putting it in the bank" isn't going to mean all jobs in that field have just been limited. There will just be more businesses and more competition between them which is good for everyone except for the inefficient, would be monopolists who want it easy. I wish ALL businessmen felt as your friend.
And if the banking system wasn't blown to shite every dollar "put in the bank" would be lent out to just those new businesses as start up capital.

Now, I realize that my former statement in the post above was a bit simplistic as the banking situation is also a huge part of our problem but I reiterate that it is still uncertainty keeping not only many existing businesses from expanding but even more important, the MOST important, it is keeping NEW businessman who may not be as savvy yet as the big guys from risking what they have spent their hard work accumulating......yet.

The millionaires you know probably like taxes and regulations because they know they are commonly used as the mechanism to keep their competition in check.

[Rod Martin]

Everyone from Fox News to MSNBC and now Greggg, talk about the millionaires that want to pay more taxes
I guess that all of them are to dumb to know they can send in donations anytime, without having the federal gov. force them and others that dont feel that way to pay also.
Stop talking and send the money in.

[Grumpy]

I know a few millionaires who thought they weren't taxed enough and wouldn't cry if the had to pay a little more. 63% of Americans believe people you make over $250,000 a year should be taxed more. Was talking to one today who said he had quite a few years that he made $250,000 + and didn't expand his business because of any uncertainty of taxes or other factors. He had a business that was making him good money every year and gave him time to fish and only required 2 employees. He just put it in the bank and has more than enough to be comfortable.

People keep saying this economy will be stimulated by small business. That's total bologna. Most small business owners couldn't hit their *** with both hands and are stealing money out of their till to pay their bowling fees. When I was in graphic design doing business cards, letter head etc for start up businesses I bet less than 10% lasted over 2-3 years.

Every time I hear a politician say small business will bring the economy and employment back I just shake my head.

If the Republicans think they will be in power very long I feel sorry for them. People are just voting for the party not in power and the cycle will continue. They are both pigs under the same blanket.

Small business can mean just one employee to as many as 1000 or even more employees depending on what industry. Small business's outnumber their larger counterparts by a huge margin and are spread through out the country from tiny towns to large cities, they are the hope for recovery.

Info here http://www.sba.gov/advo/stats/sbfaq.pdf

[Greg_Cornish]

But anyway, the fact is that if the demand for something is there, for every business that chooses to stay small there will be a place for a new business.

If the demand is there you still need the money to pay for it. Small business owners (starters) go often broke because they falsely assume if the demand is there, people will have money to pay for it.

[fun4fish]

It's no surprise that many big businessmen and the rich are for the GOP party. The less they're taxed the more they can either invest or spend. Problem with this is the pie is smaller NOW and small business' are dying off because they cannot compete. As stated before the global big business' have slave labor branches that bounce around to various countries (BRIC). How can you compete with that? Should they not be regulated? Free trade all of a sudden doesn't sound "free" anymore does it? especially when there's probably close to 30 million out of work. Think about that for a second, that is 30 major cities out of work! If your involved in any form of manufacturing forget about it and if your in the food business or contracting business you have to compete with illegals. These are huge areas that have effected the middle class. Without some kind of carefully monitored domestic regulation program how can we "really" bring jobs back to the middle class?

Sure some will say to make your business a profitable one you have to be multi faceted OR cutting edge, but even then more than likely some trends analyst from (or hired by) a big company is going to steal what you've worked for and outsource it. If your lucky you will get bought out.

[Rod Martin]

It's no surprise that many big businessmen and the rich are for the GOP party. The less they're taxed the more they can either invest or spend. Problem with this is the pie is smaller NOW and small business' are dying off because they cannot compete. As stated before the global big business' have slave labor branches that bounce around to various countries (BRIC). How can you compete with that? Should they not be regulated? Free trade all of a sudden doesn't sound "free" anymore does it? especially when there's probably close to 30 million out of work. Think about that for a second, that is 30 major cities out of work! If your involved in any form of manufacturing forget about it and if your in the food business or contracting business you have to compete with illegals. These are huge areas that have effected the middle class. Without some kind of carefully monitored domestic regulation program how can we "really" bring jobs back to the middle class?

Sure some will say to make your business a profitable one you have to be multi faceted OR cutting edge, but even then more than likely some trends analyst from (or hired by) a big company is going to steal what you've worked for and outsource it. If your lucky you will get bought out.

I must say after starting and running several small businesses F4F you have more bullcrap in you than Greggg does.
One of you say small business hords money and doesnt help , the other says we need a gov. to protect us so we can just stay alive.

[2ndsuks]

If the demand is there you still need the money to pay for it. Small business owners (starters) go often broke because they falsely assume if the demand is there, people will have money to pay for it.

I'm really scratching my head on this one!

[Greg_Cornish]

If the demand is there you still need the money to pay for it. Small business owners (starters) go often broke because they falsely assume if the demand is there, people will have money to pay for it.

I'm really scratching my head on this one!

You'd have to back up a ways. All I'm saying is that most (not all) owners of small business start ups don't have what it takes to run a business. Small business is not what's going to get the economy back on its feet by hiring people.

[Marty]

I know a few millionaires who thought they weren't taxed enough and wouldn't cry if the had to pay a little more.

I know more then a few that work hard and believe they are taxed more then enough.

63% of Americans believe people you make over $250,000 a year should be taxed more.

Of those 63% of Americans, 48% don’t pay any taxes – sure they want to keep the gravy train going. Bunch of leaches!

When I was in graphic design doing business cards, letter head etc for start up businesses I bet less than 10% lasted over 2-3 years.

You were in graphic designs doing business cards and letter heads, I though that was a printing shop and you are going to tell us:

That's total bologna. Most small business owners couldn't hit their *** with both hands and are stealing money out of their till to pay their bowling fees.

LMAO

You'd have to back up a ways. All I'm saying is that most (not all) owners of small business start ups don't have what it takes to run a business. Small business is not what's going to get the economy back on its feet by hiring people.

Then what is? Taxes?

[Greg_Cornish]

I know a few millionaires who thought they weren't taxed enough and wouldn't cry if the had to pay a little more.

Then what is? Taxes?

That'd help pay the war debt. You want war but you don't want to pay for it.

[Ringer]

Greg-you can't make general statements about small business. They are made up of geniuses and idiots just like America, They have historically created over 70% of the jobs. Problem is they are totally based upon credit to get started and keep going. If the government wanted to fix the economy they should have tied all bailouts to business and consumer lending. They just made mismanaged banks richer and screwed the citizens.

[fun4fish]

It's no surprise that many big businessmen and the rich are for the GOP party. The less they're taxed the more they can either invest or spend. Problem with this is the pie is smaller NOW and small business' are dying off because they cannot compete. As stated before the global big business' have slave labor branches that bounce around to various countries (BRIC). How can you compete with that? Should they not be regulated? Free trade all of a sudden doesn't sound "free" anymore does it? especially when there's probably close to 30 million out of work. Think about that for a second, that is 30 major cities out of work! If your involved in any form of manufacturing forget about it and if your in the food business or contracting business you have to compete with illegals. These are huge areas that have effected the middle class. Without some kind of carefully monitored domestic regulation program how can we "really" bring jobs back to the middle class?

Sure some will say to make your business a profitable one you have to be multi faceted OR cutting edge, but even then more than likely some trends analyst from (or hired by) a big company is going to steal what you've worked for and outsource it. If your lucky you will get bought out.

I must say after starting and running several small businesses F4F you have more bullcrap in you than Greggg does.
One says small business hords money and doesnt help , the other says we need a gov. to protect us so we can just stay alive.

Point I was trying to make is the big pie everyone has been trying to get a slice of is either made in another country or assembled by illegals now. It doesn't take a trends analyst to figure that out. Sure there's ma and pa businesses out there still, but if they haven't been eaten up by corporate America or online sales the hungrier low balling businesses backed by illegals are next inline.

If you've started and ran several small businesses then would it be safe to assume that most of them failed? And why did they fail? not enough capital to compete with the next guy? or because taxes were too high? if the latter then you probably didn't have enough capital to start a business in the first place.

As for Greg's point of view you can't tell me that a majority of rich people you know are not tight with their money. They don't get rich by being loose with it.

We are seeing a paradigm shift between small business and big business. Sure small business owners "used" to rule the roost but it only takes an economic catastrophe like we have currently to consolidate the competition and raise the initial capital to have a competitive start up business.

[Rod Martin]

It's no surprise that many big businessmen and the rich are for the GOP party. The less they're taxed the more they can either invest or spend. Problem with this is the pie is smaller NOW and small business' are dying off because they cannot compete. As stated before the global big business' have slave labor branches that bounce around to various countries (BRIC). How can you compete with that? Should they not be regulated? Free trade all of a sudden doesn't sound "free" anymore does it? especially when there's probably close to 30 million out of work. Think about that for a second, that is 30 major cities out of work! If your involved in any form of manufacturing forget about it and if your in the food business or contracting business you have to compete with illegals. These are huge areas that have effected the middle class. Without some kind of carefully monitored domestic regulation program how can we "really" bring jobs back to the middle class?

Sure some will say to make your business a profitable one you have to be multi faceted OR cutting edge, but even then more than likely some trends analyst from (or hired by) a big company is going to steal what you've worked for and outsource it. If your lucky you will get bought out.

I must say after starting and running several small businesses F4F you have more bullcrap in you than Greggg does.
One says small business hords money and doesnt help , the other says we need a gov. to protect us so we can just stay alive.

Point I was trying to make is the big pie everyone has been trying to get a slice of is either made in another country or assembled by illegals now. It doesn't take a trends analyst to figure that out. Sure there's ma and pa businesses out there still, but if they haven't been eaten up by corporate America or online sales the hungrier low balling businesses backed by illegals are next inline.

If you've started and ran several small businesses then would it be safe to assume that most of them failed? And why did they fail? not enough capital to compete with the next guy? or because taxes were too high? if the latter then you probably didn't have enough capital to start a business in the first place.

As for Greg's point of view you can't tell me that a majority of rich people you know are not tight with their money. They don't get rich by being loose with it.

We are seeing a paradigm shift between small business and big business. Sure small business owners "used" to rule the roost but it only takes an economic catastrophe like we have currently to consolidate the competition and raise the initial capital to have a competitive start up business.

No, its not safe to assume anything. I have never had a busness fail.I have phased out and moved on to other things. I have been bought out by partners and I have one now, that has been around for 20 years.

And you're really dumber than a rock if you think the PIE is smaller now. Hard times are when big busnesses fail and open up room for more small guys to move in. When the world becomes tentative and stocks fall. Its time to buy( I sure dont want to buy high and sell low)
BUT
When gov. steps in, tailors laws to help Big busness or bails out to big to fail. Or trys to make everything level without the dips and peaks of true consumer demand. The gov. does a disservice to all of us.

[Marty]

And you're really dumber than a rock if you think the PIE is smaller now. Hard times are when big busnesses fail and open up room for more small guys to move in. When the world becomes tentative and stocks fall. Its time to buy( I sure dont want to buy high and sell low)
BUT
When gov. steps in, tailors laws to help Big busness or bails out to big to fail. Or trys to make everything level without the dips and peaks of true consumer demand. The gov. does a disservice to all of us.

Well said Rod!

[fun4fish]

No, its not safe to assume anything. I have never had a busness fail.I have phased out and moved on to other things. I have been bought out by partners and I have one now, that has been around for 20 years.

And you're really dumber than a rock if you think the PIE is smaller now. Hard times are when big busnesses fail and open up room for more small guys to move in. When the world becomes tentative and stocks fall. Its time to buy( I sure dont want to buy high and sell low)
BUT
When gov. steps in, tailors laws to help Big busness or bails out to big to fail. Or trys to make everything level without the dips and peaks of true consumer demand. The gov. does a disservice to all of us.

I find it hard to believe you started all these small businesses yet none of them failed

And you want to argue that the pie is NOT smaller now than it was just 10 years ago?

Did I say we ARE NOT facing harder times to come? I don't agree with propping big businesses up, don't get things confused and take things out of context.

[2ndsuks]

I find it hard to believe you started all these small businesses yet none of them failed

f4f, what entrepreneurial experience do you bring to the table to make a statement like that, a twenty minute crash course via Google search engine won't do it.
I find it hard to believe you continue to involve yourself in a debate you clearly have no experience or knowledge in.

[Marty]

Thomas Stanley and William Danko wrote a book called “The Millionaire Next Door: The Surprising Secrets of America’s Wealthy.”

They produced a portrait of who America’s millionaires are and show that by and large these are quiet, understated, self-reliant Americans who are committed to hard work, education and family.

Their portrait shows that 80 percent of our millionaires are first-generation affluent, that less than half received a cent in inheritance funds, and only 19 percent get any income from a trust fund or estate.
Most Americans – 80 percent – are not self-employed. But of those that are, two-thirds are our millionaires.

Seventy-five percent of these self-employed millionaires are entrepreneurs, and the remaining quarter are self-employed professionals like doctors and accounts.
These are overwhelmingly self-made individuals, by and large founders and proprietors of prosaic businesses like “welding contractors, auctioneers, rice farmers, owners of mobile-home parks, pest controllers, coin and stamp dealers and paving contractors.”

Sure, we have high-profile billionaires in America. But most of America’s millionaires, those whose income is in the $250,000 and above category whose taxes Anthony Weiner wants to raise, are our nation’s bread-and-butter entrepreneurs and small-business owners.

Regarding the estate tax, or what has come to be known as the death tax, it is probably, of all the ways in which our government takes revenue, the most immoral.

As noted, 80 percent of millionaires are first-generation and two-thirds are entrepreneurs. The death tax punishes the very behavior that defines the economic heart and soul of American prosperity.
But perhaps worse, it attacks our most important social institution – the American family.

A recent Pew Research Center/Time magazine report shows the collapse over the last half century of the traditional American family.
Today 52 percent of adult Americans are married compared to 72 percent in 1960. Forty-one percent of our babies today are born to unwed mothers compared to 5 percent in 1960.

It was once a given in our nation that there were inviolable truths that precede government. Once most believed that one of those truths was the integrity of the American family.

The death tax tells us that that government now supersedes family, that politicians like Anthony Weiner can go inside of a family and confiscate the wealth a breadwinner has accumulated over a lifetime of hard work and prevent parents from freely passing the fruits of their labor on to their children.

Three of four Americans say that the country today is on the wrong track.
The key question today is where we want to go and what it takes to get there.
If we want to get back to prosperity, then it should be axiomatic that protecting freedom, entrepreneurship and family is the answer. Not the politics of power and envy.

[fun4fish]

I find it hard to believe you started all these small businesses yet none of them failed

f4f, what entrepreneurial experience do you bring to the table to make a statement like that, a twenty minute crash course via Google search engine won't do it.
I find it hard to believe you continue to involve yourself in a debate you clearly have no experience or knowledge in.

I've had two businesses. One which had employee's that I couldn't keep afloat and the other I still have going but only employ myself.

How's that for experience?

[Rod Martin]

I find it hard to believe you started all these small businesses yet none of them failed

f4f, what entrepreneurial experience do you bring to the table to make a statement like that, a twenty minute crash course via Google search engine won't do it.
I find it hard to believe you continue to involve yourself in a debate you clearly have no experience or knowledge in.

I've had two businesses. One which had employee's that I couldn't keep afloat and the other I still have going but only employ myself.

How's that for experience?

And you want to judge others, come back when you have made payroll for 20 years, then lets talk. You are another Greggg just on here to watch yourself in print. what a joke

[Skeeterman]

F4F,
Did you say on another thread that you were looking for a better job on craigs list? If you own your own business what is it?

[Marty]

In other posts I got the feeling F4F was working in a warehouse and had a lot of time to get on the computer? Then I believe you have said you were lucky to have a job?

[2ndsuks]

I know a few millionaires who thought they weren't taxed enough and wouldn't cry if the had to pay a little more.

Yea, sure ya do Greg!

Every time I hear a politician say small business will bring the economy and employment back I just shake my head.

Hey, every time I hear mandarin spoken I shake my head too.

[fun4fish]

And you want to judge others, come back when you have made payroll for 20 years, then lets talk. You are another Greggg just on here to watch yourself in print. what a joke

Or caught a 17lber right Rod? beat your chest all you want. Point is I "realize" that many small businesses fail and it's the nature of the beast. If you are the exception to the rule good for you.

F4F,
Did you say on another thread that you were looking for a better job on craigs list? If you own your own business what is it?

I work full time and am paid a salary during the week. My side business is low overhead and "sometimes" generates extra income, not my bread and butter. Who knows I may start up another small low overhead business this next year if things start to slow down at work.

In other posts I got the feeling F4F was working in a warehouse and had a lot of time to get on the computer? Then I believe you have said you were lucky to have a job?

Not quite Marty.

Yes, I think we are all lucky to have a job right now.

[Rod Martin]

quote from F4F
[b]Rod Martin wrote:
And you want to judge others, come back when you have made payroll for 20 years, then lets talk. You are another Greggg just on here to watch yourself in print. what a joke
F4F said
Or caught a 17lber right Rod? beat your chest all you want. Point is I "realize" that many small businesses fail and it's the nature of the beast. If you are the exception to the rule good for you.[/b]
Good jod f4f. Its as if you have a need for people to fail. Maybe so the gov. can step in and HELP US. .

If I sound like I am beating my chest so be it. But someone has to assure people that it can be done. THAT YOU DO NOT HAVE TO HAVE THE GOV. TAKE CARE OF YOU.
There are thousands of people like me. Highschool dropouts, from divorced parents,stuborn aholes that cannot play well with others that can take care of themselves and even provide jobs for others.

And we work best when the Gov. just gets the ell out of the way.

Oh it wasnt a 17 lber and most of my friends know it wasnt my fish. I was with one of the best friends I ever had, Rick Hoover, in his boat on his water and he caught the male off the bed causing the female to move in and hit my bait. (and no we were not sight fishing we learned this after the fact.) But I will take credit for the 12s ,10s, 9s, and all the rest of the fish I have been lucky enought to catch

[Vince E]

Hey come on guys, take it to the fishing forum. It doesn't belong here

I wish these debates could stay focused on the actual working of the economics at hand and out of the personal realm. It only distracts from a chance to paint an accurate picture of what doesn't work and why.

I wouldn't matter one bit who has and who hasn't been involved in the BS of the payroll process as long as the people involved in the debate were aware of what it takes to get that done. Experience IS the best way to know that but not the only way.

Businesses fail all of the time. Some give up at that point and some don't. We are lucky in that in America we can try again. It isn't that way everywhere.
Some of the greatest businessmen in history failed multiple times before succeeding. That's life. You seldom nail it the first time, especially when forecasting demand, costs and political risk factors.

There is always a number of bankruptcies going on in even a healthy economy. The question is why do sometimes the greater number of trained forecasters (entrepreneurs) go off track and make serious errors in forecasting, leading to a recession? It's what in the Austrian Business Cycle Theory they refer to as "the cluster of errors".
This is the question that Keynes and the neo-classicals can't answer without resorting to disconnecting the micro and macro.


Greg- you seem to not understand the difference between NEEDS (or even wants) and DEMAND. Needs (wants) go unmet all over the world. Demand comes with the purchasing power to satisfy it by definition.
When demand for something is high the profit motive moves entrepreneurs into the market to satisfy it. As this process works through supply goes up and in turn price comes down. During this process the efficiency of production is increased and quality (for the price) goes up.

The process of supplying demand creates conditions that lend themselves to satisfying NEEDS in the same area. Think canned food drive at the local school or church. If we were all out plowing with a stick right now there wouldn't be extra canned goods lying around to be donated. Increasing overall wealth (through the accumulation and utilization of capital = capitalism) increases the wealth of even the poorest.

[Rod Martin]

Vince, we have you for the big picture. I work at a smaller level. I want f4f and greggg and anyone else for that matter to understand small busness drives this country and no one should be afraid to start one.
Anytime a small busness starts it spreads wealth to others, with ours its the permit company that supplies our permits, the independant pilot cars drivers escorting our loads, the parts company that provides for all the broken trailer and truck parts.Tires, fuel , insurance, and our demand for trucks as our drivers wear out the ones we have
When you start thinking about all the products that are made and the wealth that is generated for others Small busness is to me the heart that pumps life to the world.

and even on the fishing forum , chasing the big one generates a lot of income for so many people. what harm is there in holding out a carrot for others to try and best.(once they provide for basic needs)

Merry Christmas

[Vince E]

Understood. Merry Christmas to you too.

I was listening to a lecture where he asked his students what they had for lunch.
A sandwich was the average and he asked them just what they would have had to have gone through if they wanted to produce that sandwich all by themselves.
Growing wheat, milling flour, building ovens, raising cattle and vegetables.....on and on.

He made the point that for, on average in that room that day, a half an hours worth of their labor they were able to command the efforts of thousands of people whom they have never met and probably never will nor need to. All of whom profited by their efforts in some way, which is why they were involved in the first place.
No central control necessary, it would just screw it up. Gotta love capitalism.

There is a free book called Ipencil that supposedly traces the production path of our simplest writing utensil in the same fashion. I have it loaded but haven't listened yet.

[Ringer]

I own a small business. I take the last dollars if there are any but I also make sure 8 families have good salaries and benefits. I buy supplies for dozens of vendors every week and pay taxes, pay a CPA, pay a landlord $10000 a month and have to comply with various government requirements. Small business hates government period. They apply many rules and regulations that only hinder the ability to succeed. We compete with countries that have no regulations and pay their people wages that can barely sustain life. If government over regulates in a state we either close the doors or move to another state. The bigger guys just offshore production. I would bet that the number of closings of small business have been astronomical in this recession. I will also bet that the startups are down to zilch. Our leaders have given trillions to bankers, insurance companies and state governments. Has not created one job that will contribute anything. Just made those entities richer. We have gone down the wrong path. Force the banks to loan to the street and see how fast the recovery is. Take the capital gains tax down and watch companies invest and grow the economy. Keep paying unemployment and bailing out irresponsible state and local governments and learn to stand in a bread line.