FLW what is it all about ?

[Brian Ruthman]

I was reading the story on Bass Fan about Michael Bennett and fishing FLW , and im left wondering what the heck ? You work your a$$ off fishing getting to that level and then you get no support ? Makes me wonder if we should all wake up from the dream of becoming a big time "FLW Pro" and just be happy we get to fish our local events and have some fun doing it .

[ruger123]

Brian i am right there with ya, i have realized that it is always going to just be a dream. I work full time and have a family and am very happy fishing my local events. I sometimes wonder how in the world do these guys make it. I mean i know how much it cost to fish, I am thinking most of the pro's are either independently wealthy or they just know the right people. There is know way i can afford to fish at that level, so i have excepted that a dream is a dream. The closest i would come is to save some money and fish a pro am, like anglers choice or won bass. I wouldn't be able to fish everyone but maybe a couple. You can get some good experience fishing those so i have heard. The only tournaments i have fished are team events, but i would like to try a pro am one day. I have been fishing for 4 years and have won a boat and a angler of the year title and some first place finshes. I am very happy with that success even though i am not a pro. Maybe one day i will figure out how to at least get some sponsors.
MIKE SANDERS

[Robert F]

There is no such thing as Professional bass fishing. Some guys fish professional bass tournaments but they are not likely to have a career to retire from. Some guys will have success becoming representatives for fishing industry products but NOBODY can make a living fishing. Shame on anybody that thinks they are owed a career. Good on Mikey to realize it before FLW took that whole million back.

[TomL]

Ding - Ding - Ding - We have a winner. I knew you were a smart one Ruthman, you hit the nail on the head.

and yes there are anglers making a living fishing - but, only (maybe) 3 of them fish FLW - the rest fish BASS. Think Skeet, KVD, Ike and a handful of others aren't making a living from fishing?

I am betting all of these guys made pretty good money from their fishing career... but, the odds are about the same as any other professional sport = NOT GOOD. The biggest difference is anglers have to risk their life savings and credit status to try to make it a career - while other athlete's don't have to risk their own cash to try and make it big.

2010 Final Standings

Field and Standings
No.: Angler: Points:
1. Kevin VanDam, Kalamazoo, Mich. 275
2. Edwin Evers, Talala, Okla. 265
3. Skeet Reese, Auburn, Calif. 260
4. Terry Butcher, Talala, Okla. 252
5. Aaron Martens, Leeds, Ala. 244 (Tiebreaker, Postseason weight: 51-12)
6. Cliff Pace, Petal, Miss 244 (42-7)
7. Russ Lane, Prattville, Ala. 243
8. Greg Hackney, Gonzales, La. 238
9. Tommy Biffle, Waggoner, Okla. 228
10. Gary Klein, Weatherford, Texas 219
11. Derek Remitz, Grant, Ala. 217
12. John Crews, Salem, Va. 216

[Todd Dunlap]

Michael,You Rock!All,i can say is PAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[TomL]

Good luck to Michael - he's a great angler, he will do fine in the PAA events and I hope he gets into the BASS opens.

You think FLW likes us out here? 15 anglers from the U.S. on tour next year (the listed 13) plus Justin Lucas and Kevin Hawk - relocated. 3rd most of any state - yet they never get within a couple thousand miles of California for a Tour event. Why? because California cities don't pay them to do so... Its all about $$$$ for FLW - that's why they fish lakes in the wrong time of year. When was the last time you heard of an FLW Tour event cracking 100 lbs to win like BASS does? They remind me of Terrell Owens "I love me some me" .. They definitely love them some them!

I don't have a problem with FLW - they are in business and business is about making money... just don't come crying when the anglers finally wise up!

[Ricky-S]

Hey Tom-It is obvious that you don't favor FLW's business model. However, lets not forget that FLW pushed (forced) BASS to increase their paybacks. What would those of us be fishing for (money wise) if there were no FLW? Last I looked, BASS hasn't had an Open in the West in a long time. Last year they were here we out drew other regions and they still left....There is more to the FLW vs BASS than the money....I would fish both if I could and I did.

There are people fishing both tour making a living fishing, and I would agree with you that there are more on the BASS side. With that said, what happened to MB happens on the BASS side as well. In fact it happens in LIFE.

I would also say that the Elite Series is making a lot of guys go broke. I could name many. BASS has priced the average guy out of the national scene-Did guys miss the three articles that Bassfan did were they takled about that last week. Guys that made it but did not have the $100,000 that it cost to play with the big boys on the BASS side...That is a problem for both tours.

Just trying to give balance to the discussion from someone who made the Elite Series more than once.

[Robert F]

Some guys will have success becoming representatives for fishing industry products but NOBODY can make a living fishing.

To quote myself Tom, This is how Ike, Rojas and Velvick make a living fishing. You're right about three people making a living FISHING.
KVD, Skeet and Brent Ehrler.
Plenty on the PAA or BASS sides will go broke too. It is not an exclusive thing to FLW.

[Steve Reed]

I know of a few anglers that live just on winnings. It's crazy that they can do that... To me its almost more feasible to live on a big local tournament lake, practice like hell, and fish every tournament possible. At least then you cut down on travel expenses.

The problem all comes back to the pro events, but that topic has been beat to death...

Will there ever be an opportunity for a guy to fish professionally in the west again?

I mean actually make money. Guys like Dobyns, Murray, Folkestad.

Unless you are marketable then good luck making money as a pro. The money was and could still be there for an organization to create a PROFESSIONAL TOUR with no entry fees and an appearance fee. I've seen the model on how this can be done and it is completely realistic. If PAA got the right people and the right mindset they could make this scenario work and create a league of 75-100 anglers with 0 anglers losing money and a real pro level to work towards.

[Steve Reed]

Ricky is right on about FLW... They came out here and tried to make it work. They still want to help the west grow and I think they can. The new everstart series should be a great place for new pro anglers, but it also will push away some of the guys looking at the risk vs reward.

A shot at the cup fishing locally is still the best we have and I hope they get support so they can re-formulate their western plan. With Trisha Blake and Kathy Fennel at the helm I'm very confident in the positive direction FLW is going.

[Robert F]

FLW could do that right now Steve. Actually they have the best foundation to do it. Just get rid of the team members and make EVERYBODY run National Guard, Pringles and Stayfree on their boat. Make the people qualify through the Everstarts then the Series and make the Tour entry free. Bingo, money made as PROFESSIONAL fishermen.

[Ricky-S]

Debating whether someone is earning a living fishing versus being a sub contractor to a fishing industry related company is semantics. There are more than three people earning a living fishing. If those guys did not fish tournaments they would not have sponsors to the degree that they do.

There are plenty of people earning a living fishing….however, most don’t earn the type of living that would cause me to leave my day job……

[Steve Reed]

I mean with the FLW deposits alone you could make a solid return on corporate bonds, more than enough to pay for the cup.

[TomL]

Well the topic was FLW - so I was only speaking about them... but, they are all the same EVEN THE PAA! Once one of these orgs makes a move to having a FREE level - invite only to those who qualify through lower levels it'll be game over. I've drawn up the numbers and they work - WITHOUT SPONSOR money, but its not easy to make them work.

Robert - you are right FLW could do that right now. In fact FLW could pay back 10X what they pay back currently with no entry fees and they'd still make money. With Walmart back on board I am guessing they are somewhere back to where they were a few years ago - a D&B reported $75 million in sponsorships a year. Instead, they'll just pocket the money and leave guys like Michael Bennett and many others high and dry.

Ricky - I know you are a big supporter of FLW - and I hope your positive PR gets you a team deal someday soon. I'd love to see you out there taken those eastern dudes $$!

I don't have a dog in this fight. CBC doesn't compete with FLW or Bass so its not a competition thing... in fact their lack of caring about anglers is 80% of the reason there is a CBC - so I guess we can all hate 'em or love 'em for that too. My only reason for wasting even 1 minute of my time talking about this is that I have many friends chasing the dream and going broke while FLW is laughing all the way to the bank. I do have a few friends (2) that do pretty darn well with FLW as well but, for every $1 they do win my other friends have lost $20. So my only reason for having anything good or bad to say is based on how us as anglers are treated --- and if we as a group want to bury our heads in the sand and take it in the rear... well I am not down with that. Sorry.

BASS I won't discuss as who knows what the new owners are going to do and holding the old ownership against them isn't right.

PAA - unfortunately, the people running the PAA are anglers, anglers who are trying to make it themselves and its impossible for a competing angler to run it the way it would need to be run to take over the sport. I had high hopes for them when they started out - but, have seen some stuff that blew me away when I saw it.

[Ricky-S]

Hey Tom-No team deals coming my way...too many things going against me...plus I have ZERO interest in fishing for a living or nationally. I am not working on a Doctorate to be a national bass pro. I get my fix right here on the Westside. I have had my chances to fish nationally and that life style is for the birds. I like sleeping in my own bed once and a while.

I am a supporter of bass fishing. I have said it in the past. Until we have a PGA style format in fishing where the anglers own the tour and WE hire someone to run the events ALL the orgs will be out for their own interest.

[Hollywood]

Hey Tom when is the last time you were at a PAA event? because your way off on what's really happening at PAA. I was there to see and experience it first hand.

Did you know this year they have a no entry fee event? And no I'm not talking about the TTBC !

Something the guys fished 4 events for this last summer to qualify for.

PAA has by far the fastest draw and meeting than any org that I have personally seen.

There tv show ain't bad either

[Hollywood]

Since when is it FLW or any other tournament orgs responsibility to hand you sponsors? If you don't get a team deal then hit the ground and put in some hard work and go get your own deals.

[Robert F]

Robert - you are right FLW could do that right now. In fact FLW could pay back 10X what they pay back currently with no entry fees and they'd still make money. With Walmart back on board I am guessing they are somewhere back to where they were a few years ago - a D&B reported $75 million in sponsorships a year. Instead, they'll just pocket the money and leave guys like Michael Bennett and many others high and dry.

Could you imagine how powerful FLW could be if they just configured that sponsor money differently and just make the Tour a living wage for the bottom 50? Scary. With the stingy hand-out of the new team deals I do not think the WalMart deal is as big as before. Still bigger than anything in the business. Then add T. Boone, it has to be a ton.

Anglers just need to have the smarts of Mikey and realize when the money doesn't make sense. Still think Western anglers are better than the average player. I fished with guys out there that think the 10 inch power worm is a big secret I also had a guy tell me he was going to fish the back of the boat next year because there are more checks out of the back. Maybe that's why these big orgs can have their way with these guys.

[flipit]

Hey Tom-It is obvious that you don't favor FLW's business model. However, lets not forget that FLW pushed (forced) BASS to increase their paybacks. What would those of us be fishing for (money wise) if there were no FLW? Last I looked, BASS hasn't had an Open in the West in a long time. Last year they were here we out drew other regions and they still left....There is more to the FLW vs BASS than the money....I would fish both if I could and I did.

There are people fishing both tour making a living fishing, and I would agree with you that there are more on the BASS side. With that said, what happened to MB happens on the BASS side as well. In fact it happens in LIFE.

I would also say that the Elite Series is making a lot of guys go broke. I could name many. BASS has priced the average guy out of the national scene-Did guys miss the three articles that Bassfan did were they takled about that last week. Guys that made it but did not have the $100,000 that it cost to play with the big boys on the BASS side...That is a problem for both tours.

Just trying to give balance to the discussion from someone who made the Elite Series more than once.

Who is a classic winner that is broke in the modern era? MB won twice that. There really is no comparison on current events. The FLW has taken away qualifying spots. BASS has increased Classic spots for regional open winners. Cant blame the BASS deal on current management, that was ESPN. Its no coincidence that many FLW pro's are running to BASS. Many western anglers have chose to fish the Centrals and Northern Opens instead of the western FLW. Several other FLW Tour Pro's have also jumped ship. It is well known that the FLW favors certain anglers, but you have to do as your told. When guys like Dudley and others exposed the FLW it was not a good thing.

I know you fish most Pro Ams here on the west coast. I know you talk up the FLW. Im all good with that, its your choice. Freedom to choose and all, hopefully there is a choice next year. I know several Pro anglers that stopped fishing tournaments when BASS left, and all are watching closely to see if they will return. FLW has been good when there is nothing else.

Your right about Tour expenses. Its a rich mans game, or a man thats great at getting support from sponsors. However I do recall reading that the elite guys that refused quoted it at $50,000 in expenses for a season. Still alot of money. If one has a bad year its tough to recover, and keep going.

Moral of the story, get a good career with alot of time off, and go into it knowing you will need to work.

[Ricky-S]

Just for the record. I am not talking up FLW or talking down BASS. I fish EVERYTHING out West. EVERYTHING. I fished BASS when they were here and made it to the Elite Series. I will fish them again when (if) they return. I don't like/dislike BASS anymore/less than AC, WON, and/or FLW. I fish them all and have made the championships and made top 10s in all of them.

I favor/like fishing. PERIOD. I have never taken sides and never will. I have friends fishing both that ARE making a living. I have had a chance to fish BOTH national tours and turn them DOWN. I LOVE what I do for a living and have ZERO desire to fish either or I would be.

I don't understand the BASS vs FLW drama. There are guys that left BASS that fish FLW and guys that left FLW that fish BASS. That is the TRUTH. No one will call you with boat loads of money if you make either national tour. Trust me I know. If (when) bass returns, it will be the same core group of us out there that have supported fishing in the West from the beginning. Some new guys will come and some old guys will leave. It will be the same names fishing FLW and all the other derbies fishing BASS when (if) they return. Trust me....

[TomL]

Hollywood - call me tomorrow I will tell you what I know. But you are right I have not fished the PAA - and their events may be great and a single free tournament is like a TOC. We need a FREE TOUR. like the PGA is free - even appearance money. I know different sport, easier to put on TV- more followers etc... but, it IS doable.

Ricky - I know you are one of the good guys - I hope my post didn't sound like an attack. I just know you support FLW a lot... and to each his own. I enjoy fishing as well, but, I'll stick to the stuff that allows me to feed the family and spend time with the baby win or lose. throwing $10+ K into a trail like the FLW would have me too scared to fish. At the end of the year I'd have to go back to writing software to pay off my debt... and I don't want to do that!

Robert F - I like your thinking. Did I just say that? Sounds like you've changed your views on the whole thing since the last time this subject came up.

As for FLW giving away sponsorships - by no means is it any anglers right to have a sponsor handed to them. I think the anglers that "get it" get sponsors. It's not about winning or losing... its about exposure and sales. I am not up on the latest FLW logo rules - but, I hope they have gotten better for the anglers.

As for FLW vs. Bass vs. PAA - they are all about the same. Actually, the FLW is the one I think has the best chance to do it right. I hope someday they decide they want to make a true "Professional" level of fishing that gives anglers a reasonable chance to make a living. I guess that is what I dislike most - they COULD do the sport a world of good - but, they don't!

P.S. - Ricky, does that mean we someday soon we are going to have to call your Dr. Ricky?

[flipit]

Just for the record. I am not talking up FLW or talking down BASS. I fish EVERYTHING out West. EVERYTHING. I fished BASS when they were here and made it to the Elite Series. I will fish them again when (if) they return. I don't like/dislike BASS anymore/less than AC, WON, and/or FLW. I fish them all and have made the championships and made top 10s in all of them.

I favor/like fishing. PERIOD. I have never taken sides and never will. I have friends fishing both that ARE making a living. I have had a chance to fish BOTH national tours and turn them DOWN. I LOVE what I do for a living and have ZERO desire to fish either or I would be.

I don't understand the BASS vs FLW drama. There are guys that left BASS that fish FLW and guys that left FLW that fish BASS. That is the TRUTH. No one will call you with boat loads of money if you make either national tour. Trust me I know. If (when) bass returns, it will be the same core group of us out there that have supported fishing in the West from the beginning. Some new guys will come and some old guys will leave. It will be the same names fishing FLW and all the other derbies fishing BASS when (if) they return. Trust me....

Sorry Ricky, guess a better word would of been vocally supportive. Which is not a bad thing. The thing that get to me about FLW is the no sponsor jerseys on TV day. It makes it tough for these guys to get sponsors that are gonna give them financial support. It restricts there ability(for the majority). So your option(or lack there of) is to get on a team. So they get guys on these teams and I dont believe they would do it given a choice(in most circumstances). If they would allow the anglers to wear their stuff I think it would help. Guess I dont really dislike anything else about them, but it would not be my choice(I can only do one circuit at this time).

[Kevin]

Props to Michael Bennett for grabbing the bull by the horns and taking care of business.

[Steve Reed]

Everyone needs to stop complaining about the final day sponsor jerseys. You need to understand that is how the trail is run, that's part of their marketing plan they sell to the company. That's how they do business and obtain team deals for their anglers. FLW pays way better than bass. Top 10 bass make more money in sponsorship than top 10 FLW, but there are more guys in FLW breaking even or better. BASS gives you a chance to be a superstar, but if you aren't then you better have Boyd Duckett money.

FWIW: If a company thinks the possibility of a jersey on television on the last day of a tournament is value they are out of their minds, they need to re-evaluate their spending. Its not about the brand its about the angler. That's why guys on the elite series that do well are also really great promoters. Look at the guys who are doing it right now, the ons who make money are great personalities.

FLW is a great organization and they understand business. If have fished their events how could you possibly complain about the service you received. FLW has always pushed the envelope to get fishing to the main stage; Fantasy Fishing, College Fishing, Live weighins and now a dedication to improving the content of their website and magazine. The only problem would be the greed that was evident in previous years.

[moorecat]

I might get reamed out by all you west coast boys for this post, but read this part of the article.

"Regarding Michael, he did not enter the 2011 Walmart FLW Tour and therefore was not able to be considered for a potential team deal," said communications head Jeff McCoy.


Look at guys like Randall Tharp, he has been fishing the Tour for a couple years out of his pocket and just landed a team deal. What if they would have given that deal to someone else, I think Randall would still have fished the Tour.

I realize that Bennett has had some great success in his career but I truly do not think FLW was singling him out and picking on him.

[ash]

I might get reamed out by all you west coast boys for this post, but read this part of the article.

"Regarding Michael, he did not enter the 2011 Walmart FLW Tour and therefore was not able to be considered for a potential team deal," said communications head Jeff McCoy.


Look at guys like Randall Tharp, he has been fishing the Tour for a couple years out of his pocket and just landed a team deal. What if they would have given that deal to someone else, I think Randall would still have fished the Tour.

I realize that Bennett has had some great success in his career but I truly do not think FLW was singling him out and picking on him.

Business is business, I am sure that there were conversations and posturing on both sides - I wish Michael the best, perhaps its a really smart move to focus on business career outside of fishing and fish for the passion instead of for the profit. If you consider what if the other BIG DRAW pros did the same thing when they dont hvae a full ride, perhaps that would be enough of a calling card to the industry that this pay 60K to play against my own $$$ is BS. Just re-read what Tom wrote in his post, it is possible for the orgs to profit as well as the anglers - but something dramatic needs to happen to insight this change.

[Rick G]

So what do you think makes a Touring pro deserve to have a FLW Team deal? Top finishes consistantly? Committment to the Organization? Good tv personality? Good looks? Great at the Funzone? Unrelenting sponser promotion? My guess is some of all of the above, with all the time and money it takes to committ. If you want to be a professional fisherman you better have the guts to put your OWN money on the line because you have confidence you will win. There are no "Lifetime" contracts in this business, even though I am sure there are some politics involved in who gets the team deals at FLW. At the Bass-a-thon even Larry Nixon was worried about his deal for 2011. But I bet even at his age he would just pony up and go, Team deal or not because he has a WINNING ATTITUDE. There is an old saying " confidence is the best lure in your box" and at that level it really makes a difference. Rick G.

[bigbass111]

+1 on what Rick said...

I have multiple friends fishing both tours and while I see both sides of the fence its sketchy at best. Alot of 2 tour pros will not miss the Elite event over an FLW event so with that in mind BASS has an advantage.

I would personally have no issue fishing FLW with the new leadership, but they still need to make REAL changes for me to jump in. Its a buisness and I know that and the issue they have is two sets of customers. They have sponsors to keep happy and they have Anglers to keep happy. Unfourtunatly for us the Sponsors pay more, alot more. If they lifted the Sponsor policy COMPLETELY like BASS and allowed guys to make a real honest living on their own the entries would come. I think guys would defect from BASS and try out FLW. But the limitations FLW puts on an angler are way to steep in my book and that is why I will not support them.

Hopefully BASS brings back the Opens one day soon. With Jerry at the wheel it may happen sooner than later.

[Paul Cormany]

+2 Rick. Bret Hite fished the tour last year without Dunkin Donuts and made a living. John Murray fishes the Elites on his own dime because he knows he's coming home with somebody else's cheese. Clifford Pirch will join Bret and John this year fishing on his own dime. These guys and many others like them fish on their own abilities and their own money. Anybody that feels they must have a sponsor to fish is admitting they aren't good enough to do it on their own and need a safety net. (Oh Jeez, I just realized if they're Democrats they probably feel the federal government owes them a sponsorship!).

The bottom line, there are people that love, promote and always represent the sport in a positive light (Ricky-S) and there are those that seek every opportunity to detract from it. I don't know how anyone can consider themself a tournament angler and constantly bash the organizations that give them the chance to fish. I personally am thankful to FLW, BASS, ABA and any other organization that has been around for more than two years for giving me all the alternatives for pursuing my endeavors. I'm adult enough to choose where I put my money and where I don't and that should be the end of the matter. It's no wonder the tournament organizers leave every time they test the waters in the west. If I had to listen to the incessent onslaught of whining from all the crybabies, I would pack up and head east as well. The critics always have a better business model than the people actually in the business. Instead of reading all the negativity on westernbass.com, I wish these guys would scrape together the money and put it on the line to start their own tournament organization and show us how it should be done. That's the great thing about our country. The only thing holding you back is yourself. The only problem is their ideas don't fly in a world where you actually must produce a profit to continue to exist as a business. Maybe all the critics can pool their money and put on a no entry fee tournament for the rest of us where 100% of the field gets a check. To make it fair for everyone, we'll just draw for checks without weighing any fish.

Anyone that knows my wife knows I am the luckiest man in the world. She's a big game hunter and a tournament angler. She supports everything I do with positive reinforcement and gives good critical counsel. Yet there are things about her of which I could choose to be critical, but I keep my mouth shut and count my blessings instead. We've been married for over 26 years. Maybe there's a lesson in that for the western tournament anglers.

[Hollywood]

+2 Rick. Bret Hite fished the tour last year without Dunkin Donuts and made a living. John Murray fishes the Elites on his own dime because he knows he's coming home with somebody else's cheese. Clifford Pirch will join Bret and John this year fishing on his own dime. These guys and many others like them fish on their own abilities and their own money. Anybody that feels they must have a sponsor to fish is admitting they aren't good enough to do it on their own and need a safety net. (Oh Jeez, I just realized if they're Democrats they probably feel the federal government owes them a sponsorship!).

The bottom line, there are people that love, promote and always represent the sport in a positive light (Ricky-S) and there are those that seek every opportunity to detract from it. I don't know how anyone can consider themself a tournament angler and constantly bash the organizations that give them the chance to fish. I personally am thankful to FLW, BASS, ABA and any other organization that has been around for more than two years for giving me all the alternatives for pursuing my endeavors. I'm adult enough to choose where I put my money and where I don't and that should be the end of the matter. It's no wonder the tournament organizers leave every time they test the waters in the west. If I had to listen to the incessent onslaught of whining from all the crybabies, I would pack up and head east as well. The critics always have a better business model than the people actually in the business. Instead of reading all the negativity on westernbass.com, I wish these guys would scrape together the money and put it on the line to start their own tournament organization and show us how it should be done. That's the great thing about our country. The only thing holding you back is yourself. The only problem is their ideas don't fly in a world where you actually must produce a profit to continue to exist as a business. Maybe all the critics can pool their money and put on a no entry fee tournament for the rest of us where 100% of the field gets a check. To make it fair for everyone, we'll just draw for checks without weighing any fish.

Anyone that knows my wife knows I am the luckiest man in the world. She's a big game hunter and a tournament angler. She supports everything I do with positive reinforcement and gives good critical counsel. Yet there are things about her of which I could choose to be critical, but I keep my mouth shut and count my blessings instead. We've been married for over 26 years. Maybe there's a lesson in that for the western tournament anglers.

couldn't have been said any better! +1

[Kevin]

Hit the nail on the head Paul!

[Steve Reed]

To each his own I guess. You are right Paul, its easy for others to critique a business when they aren't in it, guilty as charged. Kind of like an amateur angler telling pro's they should have the balls to pay their entries to maybe make it back. All the guys on the board call for transparency from local organizations, well maybe we should ask it from FLW... I love the tournaments they run and what they offer, they are top notch, but I just believe there is so much more opportunity for anglers.

When all your money is made from tournament wins, you'd better be damn good, have a great tax person, and know how to live on next to nothing. Each person makes their own decision, as uninformed as they may be. There are still some of us out their that envision a professional angling league instead of an organized gambling ring. The funny thing is the anglers are the gamblers and the organization is like a casino just taking in profit. It's full proof. The market determines the price and even without team deals you have 160 guys willing to risk it all, so why should the organization ever offer 1 single deal. I wouldn't.

Professional bass fishing is really made for guys with other forms of income, which therefore negates the title of professional.

I hope PAA comes on strong, they have the anglers out there that want to fish. Why not hire a true business team to put together the tour next year.

[Rich hamilton]

nm

[Guy Williams]

DUDES! WTF! This is exactly what I was trying to say two weeks ago in my posts!!! Did you all forget??? HSBM!!!!!! (title A little RANT!
by Rich hamilton » Fri Dec 10, 2010 9:32 am

Okay I always have supported fishing organizations but how can guys afford to fish from the front of the boat with the cost? Maybe it is just me but I look at the payouts and the cost. First place would walk away with 15.5K if 150 boats showed up? (taxes and expenses) again I love this organization but who can afford this? RR)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wxl3RfKx62g

Funny post! If I want to fish another "Pro" format at a entry cost savings of $500 in the West I still have the exact same expenses for gas,lodging,food and the list goes on. For what? 10 grand plus less available in winnings for first place plus even way worse percentage for 2nd down the line to 1 in 5 payback? No thanks, I'll pay the $500 more for a REAL 1 in 3 payback plus a nice chance to at least make a buck. Until the "West" orgs can and will provide a better payback I'll fish stupid and uninformed with FLW!
Guy Williams

[scottsweet]

To each his own I guess. You are right Paul, its easy for others to critique a business when they aren't in it, guilty as charged. Kind of like an amateur angler telling pro's they should have the balls to pay their entries to maybe make it back. All the guys on the board call for transparency from local organizations, well maybe we should ask it from FLW... I love the tournaments they run and what they offer, they are top notch, but I just believe there is so much more opportunity for anglers.

When all your money is made from tournament wins, you'd better be damn good, have a great tax person, and know how to live on next to nothing. Each person makes their own decision, as uninformed as they may be. There are still some of us out their that envision a professional angling league instead of an organized gambling ring. The funny thing is the anglers are the gamblers and the organization is like a casino just taking in profit. It's full proof. The market determines the price and even without team deals you have 160 guys willing to risk it all, so why should the organization ever offer 1 single deal. I wouldn't.

Professional bass fishing is really made for guys with other forms of income, which therefore negates the title of professional.

I hope PAA comes on strong, they have the anglers out there that want to fish. Why not hire a true business team to put together the tour next year.

An organized gambling ring? Steve, if you think it is gambling, then go play poker, there you can win millions on your $10,000 entry...talking about paybacks. Are you saying that finding and catching fish equates to cards or dice? Come on now... . NOT! Though if you are going to use that comparison, even the very best "Pro" poker players lose...even early.

I agree 100% will Paul C. and what I have already posted on Rich Hamilton's post "A little Rant." I dare say that anglers are not as "uninformed" as you may think. The issue again is people start with loving fishing and then trying to make some money at it. Then it turns in to wanting to make some money...and choose tournament fishing for a business.

As already discussed, we have choices and FLW is the ONLY organization who continues to support the west coast with larger payback tournaments. We all have lots of choices for lower payback tournaments. If you are going to tournament fish solely to make money, I wouldn't do it...get a normal job for that...the return on investment is better and your security is far better. Percentage wise, professional tournament anglers and the percentages who make it to the top are very close to any other individual professional sport...golf or tennis for example. In other words, how many "golfers" out there in the PGA make it to the top 100 with sponsors and big paybacks...I say very very few. Even team sports like baseball and football ...same thing applies...how many kids in all the high schools make it to college and then make to the pros and make big money....very very few...but probably a little higher than individual sports.

As you noted Steve, Monday night quarterbacking how tournament organizations should do things is not fair unless you have been on the tournament organization's side to understand the business. You think they are "rolling in the dough" or can simply get major sponsors to put up the money...try it sometime....you will think differently. Tournament organizations are no casinos raking in huge profits. Last time I checked, there is no tournament organization with a building like the Mirage, Caesar's Palace or Bellagio as their corporate office. Oh, the leaders/managers of tournament organizations aren't driving Bentley's with lots of diamond rings and private jets either.

As Paul C said, we have choices and we are adults who can make the choice. You know what you are walking in to when you start and what you need to do to be a winner. If you don't like the choices by the tournament organizations, don't fish them...that's all. If you do, go for it. However, if you don't make enough money, don't blame the tournament organization, blame yourself and your choices.

Again, as Paul C said, we should be grateful FLW is still giving us the choice that no one else is. Maybe BASS will be back to the west down the road, who knows. That being said, FLW and its leaders are happy to listen to constructive ideas to improve things. No one is perfect, but at least they keep trying despite the negative energy and comments often shown here and other public forums.

[Steve Reed]

You think they are "rolling in the dough" or can simply get major sponsors to put up the money...try it sometime....you will think differently. Tournament organizations are no casinos raking in huge profits. Last time I checked, there is no tournament organization with a building like the Mirage, Caesar's Palace or Bellagio as their corporate office. Oh, the leaders/managers of tournament organizations aren't driving Bentley's with lots of diamond rings and private jets either.

I hope you are being facetious with this point... because that is exactly what was happening.

An organized gambling ring? Steve, if you think it is gambling, then go play poker, there you can win millions on your $10,000 entry...talking about paybacks. Are you saying that finding and catching fish equates to cards or dice? Come on now... . NOT!

It is an organized gambling ring. You are putting up your money to win others money. How is that not gambling on your abilities. I'm sorry but that's gambling to me. Name another sport where if you have the money to play at the pro level you can do so without any other qualification. Only barrier to entry to be a pro is money. Just like gambling.

Though if you are going to use that comparison, even the very best "Pro" poker players lose...even early.

So you agree then that it's gambling.

In other words, how many "golfers" out there in the PGA make it to the top 100 with sponsors and big paybacks...I say very very few.

Incorrect. Many.

Even team sports like baseball and football ...same thing applies...how many kids in all the high schools make it to college and then make to the pros and make big money....very very few...but probably a little higher than individual sports.

Apples to oranges. You cannot compare pipeline sports programs to fishing in the sense of making it. I'm sorry that argument doesn't work.

dare say that anglers are not as "uninformed" as you may think.

Disagree as a whole, but you are right there are individuals who get it. I think a few of the anglers who are going back east made great decisions based on what they wanted to get out of it.

If you do, go for it. However, if you don't make enough money, don't blame the tournament organization, blame yourself and your choices.

Again, as Paul C said, we should be grateful FLW is still giving us the choice that no one else is.

That being said, FLW and its leaders are happy to listen to constructive ideas to improve things.

If you are going to tournament fish solely to make money, I wouldn't do it...get a normal job for that...the return on investment is better and your security is far better.

Agree completely.