Am I envious of a fish like that ? Well heck yes I am ! Come on sTony, you haven't forgotten that I am very much of a multi-species angler, right ? Of course I'm also envious of a 3 lb Bluegill, and 100 lb Blue cat too !
And just like Rob had said, it's not that I think that Spots are "all bad"..... I just see where they have caused a lot of problems, in a lot of individual fisheries.
In arguing about the damage that Spots can do, people often bring up Pine Flat, and Perris, but again, there is always going to be those exceptions where either, the Spots just do really well (Pine Flat) or, the Spots are actually outcompeted by the Florida Largemouths (Perris). Again, if only the complete causes and effects that led to these fisheries could be figured out........
As usual I see the world through diffrent shaded glasses then most. Me, I love to catch bass. Doesn't matter to me whether or not they're florida strain largemouth or northern, smallmouth or spotted, striped or peacock. Because I only get out to so often lately it really doesn't matter to me whether big or small, or whether we caught five or one hundred.
I just love to fish. Being outdoors, in the open does a lot for me in many ways. April says I'm not the 'right' unless I'm out fishing at least every so often. It's likely that I'm in desperate need to do go out REAL soon.
Sure I meet some folks on the water that are many things I don't like in people, as Don put forth. I also meet some of the best and most courteous people while fishing. Many of my good frienships have been formed from fishing. The time I spend with my kids fishnig has accounted for some of the best time we've spent together and sometimes we get testy with each other as well. I see fishing as a dicotmy of life. I take the good with bad and it all raps together to form an overall experience that I can't do without.
The basis of this website is that there's plenty of water for all kinds of approaches to this sport or recreation. Do it from the bank, tube, jon boat, fiberglass or however you fish but by all means go out and do it. Bring a friend or family member with you and enjoy yourselves and your time together. Introduce someone new to bass fishing or get out there with that person you've fished with for decades. It's all good!
For me, I've learned patience and persistence and a great many other things about myself or that make up who I am from fishing. When I was a kid I'd sit on a bank and stare at the tip of a rod anxiously waiting for a nibble from a catfish. I'd hang out on Lake Merced waiting for a planted rainbow to come tear into a piece of powerbait. As I grew older I also grew a little more proactive in my approach but I still occasionally like to go bait dunkin' with my kids. When I had the Bayliner in Big Break we'd sometimes go out fishing the channels or sometimes we'd jsut sit and drop a line directly off the back of the boat and catch 'em up without moving, stereo playing and sometimes even while cooking or playing games or cards. It was all good and still is for me.
Sure sometimes I have my regrets that I don't get out more often as I'd like to but I thoroughly enjoy the large majority of time I do get to go fish. It's a part of me and I can't and won't change that. Sometimes I need to remind either myself or others around me that most of us do this because its become engrained in us. Enjoy your time on the water and get out as much as you can. And if you feel so inclined, post a report here when you get back and upload a nice fish photo for the rest of us to enjoy.
Actually, 79 over 10 now is prolly a closer number. It was a very lean year last year fer me and double digits. Stuck in that 9 pound zone right now, zero 10+ fish. LOL As for clients, well there have been only five who have caught one over 10, the past 5 years. I'm not a liar and it surely wouldn't be prudent for my business or reputation to inflate that number to the one you expressed, don't know where that came from! LOL Quite frankly, I've stopped counting and recording my catches, it serves no purpose to do so. I simply post pictures and reports now to promote my guide services, the web is a great marketing tool for that.
I'll stick to my "holier than tho" comment. With all the big and little ponds we have in this state, from San Diego to Yreka, kinda makes ya wonder what a guy is thinkin when he comes in here and says that the spotted bass are ruining the trophy largemouth lakes. There are more bodies of water in this state, that produce trophy bass that have ZERO spots in them. The larger bodies that do have spots, evidently aren't capable of really being trophy producing lakes, like the smaller ponds. Their largemouth populations were falling any how, so a more conducive species was introduced. In my mind, for someone ta say, "The spots are the cause", who is it that this person has in mind to make that statement? Himself, and his trophy largemouth are the only thing he's concerned with. That's just my interpretation of what I saw & heard.
I also do agree with what Rob is saying. It really is too bad, that in all of our larger lakes here in northern California, we've had the introduction of spots into them with the exception of ClearLake. We've also had the introduction of Florida hybreds, maybe this has infact been part of the decline as well. I believe, to strive and grow to emense size, that floridas need one of two things, LOTS of weeds or LOTS of Trout! Most all of our larger Nor Cal lakes, are incapable of sustaining both, much less barely one or the other. ClearLake & the Delta are the exception, weeds are very abundant, the Florida strain is thriving. Almost every other lake in the state is void of weeds, with the exception of some smaller private lakes and ponds. Many of our smaller impoundments, those 7,000 acres or less, we see the Floridas thriving because of the abundance of the trout population that thrives there. Most of which are all part of the feeding program the state erroneously set up. They called it "Put and Take Trout fisheries". Little did they know or expect it would turn out to simply be a feeding program fer the florida largemouth! HAR!
But what if the Northerns were left to be in all these other ponds? They might have been capable of adapting to the existing environement better than the hybreds. But the fact is, hybred floridas were introduced. Then there was a time of adjustment where the fisheries began to decline. Only then, along came the spots to pick those fisheries up. Personally, I believe the introduction of the floridas back in the late 70s and early 80s hurt our fisheries more than the spots. Yet as time has evolved, a lot of the fishing focus has turned to the spots, the largemouth have been given a break to some degree and are slowing coming back. To me, and I'm no biologist, just somebody with a passion who likes to look at things in a detailed way, it's obvious the types of ponds a florida will thrive to reach maximum growth potential. And as a number of guys have mentioned, every lake is different.
As anglers, we are getting better at catching these fish. My God, we're paying $45 fer baits now, it damn well better be getting easier! C'mon, it is far easier to catch a trophy bass on a swimbait, than it is on a jig, blade, crank or worm, wouldn't ya all agree? Think about what I'm saying, it's just relative to catching a trophy. Really guys, think about this. Look at the number today, then lets go back 20 years and look at the numbers in the 80s. Two things have indeed happened, our fisheries HAVE gotten better, and catching them has gotten easier. Look at the numbers! HAR!
Now those swimbaits are being designed for us trophy hunters. Because that is the number one bait we need to use to catch them, right? You gonna tell me it cost $25 to make one of those baits? $25 to $45 dollars retail cost for a swimbait. Somebody is real proud of the fact that their baits catch big bass, and we the anglers are gullible enough to pay for it to reach our means and fill our desires to catch big bass.
Maybe now you can see where my holier than tho comment and the thoughts come from? It's not pointed at any one individual, it's the whole enchilada built around this, "Trophy Bass" fishing. I'm sorry Chris if I put ya in a position to where ya seem ta feel ya need to defend yerself, that was not my intention.
Hey Don, I feel for ya buddy! Lotta, imature crap goes on here with the internet, simply cause guys can't stand others having success and love ta hide behind the safety of their computer. It's that ego thing again and ya just gotta let it go. Lord knows I have gone through this since the first day I posted on NCBF back when Taylor had this website. There's always someone who thinks yer giving away their hard earned secretes, exploiting their pattern. Providing guys with a short cut learning curve, never has gone over well with the old guard of bass fishermen. I just tell em like it is, TS and keep doing what makes my bote float!
I'm alot like you Don. I don't fish tournaments anymore. I don't focus specifically on trophy bass I just love ta go fishing. Rest assured, I never git jealous of "what" someone catches. Maybe envious(I'd love ta duplicate it) and excited for them, but not jealous. And you know as well as I, Trophy hunting and Tournaments, are worlds apart and don't go well together. Using trophy tactics in a tournament, well, let's just say I'm smarter than that when fishing tournaments. Yet when I do fish tournaments, I swing for the fence. I do look for bigger bites, versus go git a limit then cull up. I've only fished 2 tournament in almost 3+ years now Don. I won em both, the one at Folsom I showed the picture of earlier and a another in December of last year with a kid on the river. We swung fer the fence and it paid off. It doesn't always happen that way. No way buddy was I tryin ta discredit or belittle anyone. As I said above in this post, my comment in regards to trophy fishing being "easy" is relative to the conversation at hand today, versus 20 years ago. It IS easier today and I stand by that statement.
Okay, I'm done, my debating for the month of January has come to and end! That was my New Years resolution, Only one debate a month on the Forum! Sorry I couldn't join ya Rob on the payback debate, ya just weren't tossing the right trophy bait to entice me on that one! HAR! HAR! HAR!
In closing, I will stick to my original debated point in this thread, I do not believe in any way, that the spotted bass are the reason for the decline of big largemouth in our larger resiviors.
Somehow I think this thread got away from the original theme. I dont know what others meant, but heres what I meant and where I stand on the spotted bass issue.
Spotted bass have a tendency to decrease the QUALITY of a bass fishery. And by quality I mean the average size and condition of fish caught. If you define quality as catch rate, then you have no problems with spots.
And in fact, spots dont neccessarilly kill the trophy potential at all. What they do is, or can do, is minimize the availability of quality mid class fish, you know, those 3-6 pounders. What happens is the stunted spots effectively minimize recriutment into those age groups. However, for those fish that successfully recruit through the stunted size, and through the mid-size categories, they have zero competition from other bass for available resources (now that they are bigger, they can effectively feed on a larger prey item that most of the other bass cant). In other words, they have a smorgasboard all to themselves. And growth rates return to normal, and those lucky individuals can grow and grow and grow. Based on my knowledge of Pine Flat, this is exactly what is happening there. How many "solid" fish come out of Pine Flat? Ive read tourny results and seems few solid fish come from there. But, every now and then it gives up a giant. Classic symptom of a stunted population.
I absolutely love catching spotted bass, and I would rather get one over 6 than get a 10 plus largemouth (years ago I had one on but it worked me, it straighted the hooks on my spook!). However, I will only fish spotted bass lakes that have a higher quailty fishery. Yes, I like nice fat 3 plus spots. I dont enjoy catching 50 1.3 pound spots.
And this brings up the real point here. Everybody has different reasons for fishing; each person receives personal satisfaction from an experience through different means. Some people could care less about size, they want numbers. Others, like me, prefer quality. And then others only want trophies. Thus, there is a place for every type of fishery in Cali, each fishery serves some sort of objective, and makes a percentage of the fishing population happy.
I think the biggest concern is that many are afraid that in the future spots will rule the vast majority of lakes in this state.
One last thing I want to point at is the harvest thing. Many of you dont seem to understand that through harvest of sub-12 inch spots, you can maintain the same high catch rates, but what you will gain is an increase in the size and condition of the average fish caught (remember, this only applies to certain fisheries where the population structure warrants such harves; e.g. Oroville yes, Folsom, maybe, im not sure). Now, who doesnt want that? Harvest does not mean a decrease in catch rates!!
Just some food for thought. If Spots are a detrament to the overall size of the bass and they push out Notherns, Florida and smallmouth. How then do you explain what happen at Lake Perris. It was an awesome spot fishery that actually held a couple of the line class records and when Floridas were introduced the spot fishery tanked. Shoot you are lucky to even hook a spot now. but you stand a good chance of sticking a Largemouth over 4 anytime you go out there The Floridas pushed the spots out and people don't catch them any more. I think the problem is alot more complex than just weather the biomass can sustain spots or weather the Largemouth and smallmouth can compete.
Here's the list of lakes in CA where spotted bass have been introduced and then disappeared from the system
--------------------------
Perris
Here's a partial list of the lakes in CA where spotted bass have been introduced (legally or illegally) and have not disappeared
--------------------------
Shasta
Oroville
Berryessa
Folsom
Camanche
New Melones
Whiskeytown
San Pablo
Bass Lake
Don Pedro
McClure
Nacimiento
Millerton
Pine Flat
Kaweah
To me this indicates that the majority of the time when spots are introduced, they stick around. In many of these lakes, they've increased in population to the near exclusion the largemouth and small mouth bass.
Cooch makes a point that in some cases introducing spots turned lakes from lousy lmb/smallie lakes into good spotted bass lakes. This could be true (and I'm not sure what lakes he's specifically referring to) but there's also the cases where great largemouth/smallmouth lakes have turned into spotted bass lakes populated by stunted bass.
For some people that's still a good thing because they like to get a lot of bites regardless of size but man I'd take Nacimiento in the early 90's when it had great smallie and northern strain lmb fishing any day over Naci today... or worse yet Naci 3-6 years ago. I won a b-n-t tourney there in 2000 with 6.33lbs for 7 fish over two days (13" limit).
I don't think any tourney guys want to fish for keepers that average less than a pound (and yes I know the spots at Naci are big and fat now) but it sure seems like spots are more prone to boom and bust cycles and it wouldn't surprise me a bit if in a few years guys are culling .8's for .9's again.
The other topic we haven't gotten into yet is, just how did spotted bass get introduced to some of these lakes? The answer is that fishermen transported them which not only is illegal, but makes me embarrased to be a bass fisherman, part of a group that thinks it knows more than the people in charge of managing the fisheries... so much more that they take it upon themselves to transplant fish around the state with no consideration for what diseases, parasites, aquatic weeds or other invasive non-native species they could be transporting at the same time. It's shameful, seriously.
Their is not much I can add to Rob's excellent post. Perris is indeed an exception, and that is certainly a fishery that would be worth some serious studies by the Ca DFG.
Also, in MPO, all things being equal, but with Perris another 400 or 500 miles North, I don't think Floridas would have squeezed out the Spots. I think a lot of things had to line up just right for the Floridas to do better than the Spots, with one important factor being a slightly warmer climate, especially in the Winter, which apparently favored the Floridas.
Oh, and one other thing..... now hold onto your hats ! ....but I think its a bummer that the "Floridas" messed up the world class Trophy Spots in Perris. As Rob had said in another post, it's not that we think Spots are "all bad", they just have a negative impact on the quality fishery a lot of the time..... no differently than the Florida bass had a negative impact on the trophy Perris Spots in this one particular instance.
Fish
ps, I'm thinking back to Scott S. original post where he labeled me as a Spotted Bass hater...... and that is not all true. In reality, I'm a "poor quality fisheries" hater......
a thousand years from now when historians reflect back to the great philosophers and statesmen of the 20 and 21st centuries one famous quote that will replace anything written by the most famous will be"CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG" .......................
I suppose my thought on the subject of poor fisheries is that you're in a position where you're comparing one fishery in California to other fisheries in California. Overall we have outstanding fisheries here in the state and the lakes that you'd label as being poor might very well be labeled significantly higher then fisheries in other states in the country.
It's my feeling that some might just be a bit spoiled by the awesome fisheries that we have. Our guys fishing competitively in the east come back telling me that the fishing truly sucks in most states they have to go to and that we don't know how good we have it out here.
Overall California DFG does a fine job of managing a resources that exists in lakes thats main purpose is to provide water to our communties, farmers and the like.
It's all a matter of perspective and I'd suggest that those that feel some California lakes are lacking need to get on their ponies and do a bit of traveling to find out what a truly poor or dying fishery is like. None of the lakes from Rob's list of places that have had spotted bass introductions fit the description of a poor or dying fishery. In fact that list reads like a who's who of lakes I absolutely love to fish. On some of those lakes time of year is critical to get into better fish but overall they fish pretty darned well. There isn't a lake on that list that I haven't experienced, some many times, and the catching is generally much better then what some are portraying in this thread. Sure, there are times when the average weight isn't comparable to other area lakes. If that's the criteria for what makes a good lake then I'm missing the point completely.
Sometimes what's being caught is merely a reflection of the anglers that are fishing it.
I'm worn down on people beating up on Oroville as a fishery. It shows a distinct lack of their longevity in fishing on that lake. A couple decades ago an angler would go all day both days without getting bit on a weekend trip there. There were tournaments that were won with one or two fish limits. That surely isn't the case anymore and it's because of the introduction of spotted bass. I heard anglers whine about not getting bit on Folsom or Millerton, yet I experienced some real good to great days on both fisheries. I used to fish Nacimiento regularly when I was living in Santa Cruz and have had some really exceptional days there. I've had trips out on Shasta, Folsom and Berryessa where all I caught were good limits of smallmouth bass.
I'm not sure what the whining is about but again I believe its coming from people that haven't truly experienced a poor fishery so they have no point of comparison. Jsut because your club went out on a lake and the bite was off shouldn't label the lake a poor fishery. All lakes have periods where the bite is tough. We're blessed in having the fisheries resource that we do in California. If you don't like the way one lake fishes you can always take a drive to a lake that does match up to your expectations and skill set.
I once heard it said, that the natural progression of an angler was that;
He first wants to catch 'a' fish.
Then he wants to catch 'a bunch of fish'.
Finally, he wants to catch 'the biggest fish'.
Obviously this doesn't pertain to everyone, but it certainly descibes my fishing throughout the years to the "T"
BTW, I don't even have to have a bend in my rod to be having fun. Just being on the water with a pole in my hand is enough to cover that. But then catching a fish makes it a bit better. A bunch of fish, better yet. The biggest fish..... Yeeeehaaaa !
Largemouth Bass are the premier gamefish on Old Hickory. The bass fishery has improved significantly since milfoil invaded the lake in the early 1990's. There are now more numbers of fish.
There was a TWRA creel survey estimated that over 92,000 large mouth were caught ( about half were released) during a one year period MOST of the population is comprised of 10 to 13" fish. With some reports of larger ones.
The funny thing is the lake has a 14" limit mouth closed flat tail.
Now there is a tough one in a tourney.
I know, I fished it. LOL!
Weeds of any kind can help I am sure but we can not have them in our reservoirs because of the water fluctuation. Even lakes with many stripers in them largemouth bass can thrive if weeds are present.
I just wonder if weeds were present if all three kinds of bass would do well.
Do we have such a lake?
I know in the merced river I catch all three.
Maybe just maybe, the lakes you listed have a problem with draw downs during the spawn. If memory serves me right the discussion during the good old days was the reason the largemouth populations were not doing so well. The dfg introduced the spots because they 1. spawn deeper than the largemouths do and earlier. it seems that the year of class were being decimated when they were still in their egg csings. In the long list of lakes the condition still exists. The dfg at perris had to negotiate with the DWP to maintain the water levels during the spawn. So when some ding bats introduced the floridas the water level remained constant enough to help the floridas succeed. if the northern lakes could keep the fluctuations in water levels to a non existent level the largemouths wuld probably return in numbers and strength.
And because of the draw downs which were destroying all our warm water fisheries, draw downs that are forced by governmental lunatics , bureaucrats and the politicians of the southern part of this state, this should be a motivating factor for all of us to jump fully on board to blow this new SDIP plan off this planet! Unfortunately, few of us git it and we're left watching folks blame the decline on the DFG management and spotted bass!
Oh well, at least somebody was able to see through all my political correctness and rhetoric! HAR! HAR! HAR!
Second, I have to agree with Steve that this thread seemed to have taken a wrong turn. I probably got more defensive of trophy hunters than I needed to / would have / should have. Fact is, I have met a lot of guys that fish specifically for big bass. Most of them are really cool. Some of them, I could take or leave. A few of them are complete freaking idiots ! ......or in other words, just about the same percentages as if we were talking about tournament guys, weekend anglers..... or for that matter, badmitten players
And finally, just to reiterate, I really do believe, that in the right situation, under the right conditions, Spotted bass have the potential to be great sportfish. So, as I had said, "I'm not a Spotted bass hater..... but rather, I'm a poor quality fisheries hater".
wANTED TO LET YOU KNOW THAT WE A. KODA AND I HAD A GREAT TIME AT NACIMIENTO WITH THOSE 1.7, 1.8, 1.9 LB SPOTS. LAST SATURDAY AT THE USAC TOURNEY. IT WAS A LOT BETTER THAN THE LAST TOURNAMENT I FISHED THERE 26 YEARS AGO.
PLEASE EXPLAIN DON PEDRO TO US ! A SLEEPER ? A 6LB PLUS SPOT LAST YEAR AND YET ONE OF THE BEST DOUBLE DIGIT LARGEMOUTH SWIMBAIT LAKES IN CALIFORNIA ? SOMETHING GOING ON HERE ??
The big question at Pedro is, how long have the spotted bass been in the lake? I suspect that they have only been in there for a few years, but someone can correct me if I'm wrong.
I feel that it's very likely that within 4-5 years, Pedro will tip and become primarily a spotted bass lake. Only time will tell there.
once yer sight gits blurry, the next thing ta go is the memory! HAR! HAR! HAR!
Actually Mike, you too overlooked about 5 or more other Hook events up to the point where Gene banned me and my teens! It's good ta know I give ya inspiration these days, still! LOL HAR! HAR!
I have been fishing Don Pedro for thirty years ( Ouch ) and we did catch a few even when I was growing up, but they were isolated in the center part of the lake around Hatch creek, and they were usually pretty good ones three pounds or so. In the last few years I have been catching a ton of little ones down in the main lake and Rogers creek. I think they have always been there, but there has also been some private plantings, I kill every spot I catch in Pedro, which is ok because I do eat fish and it has got pretty easy to catch a limit of thirteen inch fryers!
Doing my part to eliminate them from Pedro!
P.S.
Stony - yes I would love to catch a spot like that!!
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