RonC or JohnB Local Frustration

[SpookFreak]

Just thought this post might be important to bring up again. Seeing that a lot of these local tournaments have similar outcomes (winners)
It makes sense to me since I am a newcomer to the local tournaments (as with others like me) that there should be another program set up for us to compete on a less intimidating level not to cry to much but some of these guys have been doing battle on the lakes with each other for many years and have developed a skill level way above the new generation. Or are we just going to have to donate our money each tournament to these seasoned anglers who have a huge advantage over us. Who probably even prefish or have access to information most are not prevy to. This is not just my thought but is echoe'd from others I have talked to.

[J.T. Garrison]

I think what you are talking about would be a local bass club. Usually they are out to fish at more of a fun level. You still get to have fun competing but it isn't at such high stakes. We also have our new Aim Marine Sunday series that starts March 12th and is designed to just have fun and encourages fishing with a family member. There is a husband wife and a father son division or you can still just sign up with a normal team partner. Hope that helps.

[J.T. Garrison]

I think what you are talking about would be a local bass club. Usually they are out to fish at more of a fun level. You still get to have fun competing but it isn't at such high stakes. We also have our new Aim Marine Sunday series that starts March 12th and is designed to just have fun and encourages fishing with a family member. There is a husband wife and a father son division or you can still just sign up with a normal team partner. Hope that helps.

[Lance]

I think Kelly Ripa, R Watts and others tried to bring this up in another post, but it concerned more or less the topic of pre-fishing. I think Root kinda hits the nail the head, it does discourage less experienced people that would like to achieve a certain level but because of circumstances are not permitted to. Take Competitive shooting (its funny Root used to do this....do I know you?) I to used to shoot, Olympic freestyle( A Class), Skeet (AAA), Trap (AAA), Sporting Clays (AAA), IPSC (Grand Master) and Speed shooting (Grand Master) and ranked # 2 In California...You get my point. None of these aspects of shooting had me competing against a beginner or less experienced shooter. Ron, you know my wife (she's a cop)....You met her at Anglers Marine (Bass A Thon). She was the one that wanted the Ranger and I didn't. Anyway, would you think it fair for her to be competing against guys like yourself or John or the Baily brothers. Her hook set resembles that of a small earthquake than a "hook set" as we know it, yet this is the way WON, National Bass and others are set up. I would be interested in your opinion as well as Johns on this topic.

Thanks, Kokauakoakalaniho'omalu

[Schneider Fishing]

I think mentions a semi-pro team division where the team could not have won more than $1000 the previous year. But I don't think it is out here in Southern California.
All someone would have to do is have lower entry fees and very few options. Most of the big names would go to the bigger events trying to win the big money. Of course you might have someone come and try to get the 'easy money.'
Look at what happened this last year or so with the Mega (Super Top Gun) option (winner take all). The directors are doing this to give out bigger checks and attract larger crowds. Look at what NBW has been able to do at DVL with 100% pay back. NBW draws 50 boats while WON and American and Angler's draw 20 boats.
You're correct. It takes a lot of time on the water to become consistantly good, and if you can pre-fish a couple of days that week even better. I think it was two years ago that the Angler's of the year at Perris got up and said something about thanking his wife for letting him fish nearly everyday of the week prior to the tournament.

[SpookFreak]

I think it could be set up in such a way that contestents would have to meet certain criteria to enter and those sand baggers would know to stay out or (be flogged) ha ha just to even the playing field. I wonder how many have given up because the competition is to tough and felt they were being taken advantage of by the Godzillas of the local watering holes.

[Kellen]

American Bass Anglers Inc. is a draw format tournament that doesn't allow full-time guides, nor Anglers who fish as Pros in the bigger tournaments.

And as JT mentioned above, we are starting a new tournament series this year that will consist of four tournaments, March 12th and then the first Sunday of the next three months after. The entry fee is only $100 per team, plus lake fees with no options. There is a guaranteed payback of $1,500 for first and so on down the list. There is a big fish check, as well as $250 for the top adult/junior, and $250 for the top man/woman team each tournament.

The "Championship" will be a two day tournament at Vail Lake in June/July. We're encouraging those mixed teams to participate, as well as newcomers because the stakes arent as high. Most of the guys that regularly fish together and do good as team partners will be spliting up and fishing with either their wives or their children. So the playing field will be much more even. Its also going to have a huge emphasis on fun, as there will be a barbeque following each tournament and I will be organizing a "fun fish" day at Vail Lake for all members in May sometime.

I already have a lot of registrants, its a great avenue to get involved in tournament fishing without writing a $250 check for each tournament. Of course these events will be down in San Diego, the first two will be at San Vicente and the following two will be at El Capitan. There are other benefits for fishing these tournaments as well...

For more info, go to www.aimmarine.com and click on the tournament banner at the bottom.

[Lil T]

Howdy Ya'all, (and a big HI to you Ron C) I am Koa's wife and I just have to comment that my hookset isn't nearly as wobbly as an earthquake, but he has a point with regards to competition. Most sports compete in "classes" or divisions that keep the competition level tight and therefore create a more exciting match. Boxing doesn't pit heavyweights against flyweights because that would mean you were just going to see a beat down and not a fight. Nearly all sports are set up this way, with competitors advancing as they improve. In bass tournaments you should consider the concept (not a new one by any means) of a novice or non-professional class that still wins money (maybe less than the pros). I think you would generate more interest from people who are intimidated by fishing against the pros and maybe see more revenue from entry fees. Then you make a rule that 2 or 3 wins in the lower divisions moves you up. You have to earn the right to compete with the pros. Thats how most sports operate to level the playing field a bit and broaden the competitor pool. Just my two cents...I'll go back to the stern of the boat now.

[Ron C]

...is just as it has been since the inception of WON BASS back in 1988.

Without question there have been teams that have dominated within their respective regions, just at there are teams that have dominated in the NFL, MLB, NBA, and so on. This is just the nature of competition and it includes tournament bass fishing; even on the team level.

For years, WON BASS has been referred to as the "professional" team tournament circuit, a title which, quite frankly, I am very proud of. Other circuits take great satisfaction (and rightfully so) in being referred to as more "family orientated" circuits, in that they have special categories, such as top Husband/Wife team and top Adult/Child team, etc. With the number of circuits out there today, certainly there is one that falls within your skill level or comfort zone. If there is not, then perhaps J.T. Garrison's suggestion of club level competition would be a better choice.

If you were to closely examine the WON BASS achieves, you would definitely see that the same 10 to 20% of the field do, in fact, frequently finish at or near the top on a pretty consistent basis. But you would (or at least should) also notice that most of these teams have been fishing together for quite some time.

Of course there are always exceptions. My defending Anglers of the Year are Shaun Bailey and Doug Riha. While both of these gentlemen also fish professionally, their accomplishment of winning my AOY title was done in their very first year of fishing together as a team.

The year before that, I had a rookie team (Keith Rini and Mark JueDeVive) that finished very high in my AOY race. Not only was it their first year of fishing together as a team, it was the first year of team tournament fishing - period.

Before running team tournaments for WON BASS, I used to fish them (from 1988 through 1992). My partner and I had not fished together as a team prior to that and I am proud to say we qualified for three Tri-State Team Championships in the four years that we fished together and finished in the Top-20 in two of them. I can assure you that the competition back then was every bit as intense as it is today, and quite possibly even more so (the names Carol and Aaron Martens come to mind).

Just as you feel that there is a need for a lower level of team tournament competition, there is equally a need for a higher level of team tournament competition and that is exactly what we offer.

I will finish this post with something that my very dear friend Don Iovino told me when I first started tournament bass fishing back in 1979: "Your competition is the fish, not the other anglers. If you spend your time thinking about the other anglers, then you are already beat."

[Ray L.]

Think about the Federation. You can fish as a non boater and the learning curve is quick. The entry fee is not as high as a team tournament. It is more than a club tournament. The guys are great and we have a lot of fun.

[gt5bass]

I think it could be set up in such a way that contestents would have to meet certain criteria to enter and those sand baggers would know to stay out or (be flogged) ha ha just to even the playing field. I wonder how many have given up because the competition is to tough and felt they were being taken advantage of by the Godzillas of the local watering holes.

I believe this is pretty much done by Vince Harris for his Future Pro series in Northern California.

Official Rules

1. You are NOT eligible to fish the Future Pro Tour if any of the following apply:

* If you have fished more than once as a pro (boater) in Pro/Am competition

* If you have won more than $6,000 individually or as a team. If you win more than this amount during the FPT season you will only be allowed to fish one more year in the FPT

* If you have finished as team Anglers Of The Year in pro team competition

* If you have been in the top 5 in the point standings for 3 consecutive years in pro team competition

* If you have won a prize boat, engine, or car while fishing as a pro (pro/am or pro teams) in any pro-level competition

* The Future Pro Tour reserves the right to determine the participation eligibility of all anglers that want to participant in Future Pro Tour events.

* No licensed bass guides will be allowed to fish the Future Pro Tour

His turn out has been exceptional. He has put together quite a program.

BTW...I still believe there is no such thing as a level playing field. The more you try to level it the bumpier it gets. Someone will always have an "advantage" because someone will always have more skill and unless you can invent a way to make everyone fish the same amount of time, the exact same equipment...etc...etc...

OK...Just shoot me now an put us all out of our misery

or at least somebody take the soapbox and do Laundry

[Noluk]

I am that team that has donated regularly over the last couple of years. I also get no prefish time. Occasionaly my wife catches a big fish check or we get a finish in the money. The truth is that we have gotten better each year by virtue of competing. Sure we have bad tournaments and certainly can't afford to give the money away but it is part of getting competitive. I certainly don't feel that we are going to dominate any lakes or circuits in the near future but we do have alot of fun and have made some good friends.

The really funny things, is I feel more competitive on Northern waters like the Delta and Clear Lake than I feel on Diamond Valley which is 40 minutes from my house. Southern California fishies just seem to be tough, especially at this time of the year. Time on the water is a big factor to developing your skills and confidence. If your a regular angler and have some success fun fishing, you should give the tournaments a shot. You can be the person who finds a good bite and gets onto some good fish. The prefish helps alot but patterns change every day and on the water adjustments are a huge factor insuccess.

[JeffJ]

I used to be in the same boat as you. I thought what the heck am I doing out here with all these top notch sticks! But like Ron C said it is you against the fish! Once you start worring about what the other guys is doing you are done. Sure I donated for years and still do to this day but every once in awhile I get lucky and cash a check. But time on the water is the biggest key to learning these lakes. That is how these teams have gotten so good and being together for years doesn't hurt either. But when it all comes down to it, it is still "you against the fish" and if you can't get them then it doesn't matter what the next guy is doing.

But one thing that really helped me was joining the castaic bass club. It is still a competitive team tourney with less money envolved and you will learn more in the process.

[Guest]

Hey SpookFreak...
We tried that in SoCal last year.. Angler's Choice started a Semi-Pro trail that ended up being a bomb at Lake Perris... 3 Teams showed up for the first event. I announced it on this board and at atleast 10 different tackle shops around the area. Had flyers and worked the Angler's Marine Bass-A-Thon trying to spread the word on that trail. It didn't take off!

This was unfortunate because a Semi-Pro trail is exactly what was needed down there. A trail that limited the anglers to only anglers that made less that $2500 in any one season.

IN the North there is Future Pro and Angler's Choice Semi-Pro. Last years Angler's Choice Semi-Pro TOC winners were Justin Lucas and John Billheimer and they won a Basscat Saber with a 150 HP Mercury Optimax by beating 44 other teams! Billheimer honed his schills in the Semi-Pro and then went on to Win the first Stren Event at Havasu this year.

[John Barron]

It's pretty hard to expound on Ron C's post. I do understand your frustration. It's hard to compete against teams like Poore & Wilder or try fishing against Keniry and Avina at Perris or the Grovers at DVL. It hasn't always been that way though, well maybe with Poore and Wilder it has.

When I started out it was my competitive nature that made me keep coming back. When I was playing golf I wanted to play against people that were better than me. It made me play better. The same with fishing I wanted to fish against the best I could because it made me a better fisherman.

To me it angler's like you that need to keep coming. You are the next generation of winners. Think about how satisfying it will be when you beat these guys. With practice and what you do with your time on the water, you can get there. Remember that it's not time on the water it's what you do with that time that counts. Make every trip a learning experience, every trip learn something.

Unfortunately it's tough enough to get DFG permits so trying to put together a circuit like a Triple A Team circuit would almost be impossible.

Don't give up.
John Barron

[Allantek]

Do Permits Cost Money?

[Guest]

Permits are $42 or so per event... Plus there are lake fees and insurance that you will need. Sure its doable to put together a AAA trail, but it will cost quite a bit, and there is not telling the turnout you might get. I spent $42 x 7 for Permits for Lake Perris last year to have 3 teams show up for the first event... Cancelled the trail and lost almost $300 plust the lake fee. Angler's choice covers the insurance so I didn't lose money there.

This was for a trail that if you just fished 6 out of the 7 events you qualified to fish for a boat against only 40-50 other SEMI-PRO teams!

This isn't hollywood.. if you Build it they won't always come! (Field of Dreams)

[Ron C]

nm

[John Barron]

*NM*

[SpookFreak]

Ron and John,

Ok so let me get this straight"Your competition is the fish, not the other angler" ...hmmmm. I get it, "Your competition is the golf course not Tiger woods" "Your competition is the track not Dale Earnhart Jr. "Your competition is the fish not Aaron Martens. The impression that's giving is your looking out for "the boys" and not for your support base. The fact that Aaron martens or Justin Ker can come in and compete with us, on the same level, is simply insanity, and this is justified!. And the fact that NOBODY asked anyone for ideas or what they had in mind tells me that our leaders are not interested in trying to make our sport better. Has anyone read what Collins posted about tournaments up North (in this thread)?????? The United States constitution has many changes since it was first drafted, their is no reason why some Bass clubs that were drafted in 1988 cant change with the times. I must point out that this is not an attack on Ron or John, I've known these guys for a couple of years now and they have been nothing short of very fair, this is attack on the mentality against change that Ike talks about in his book.

[Smitty]

Tournament fishing is unlike any other sport. On any given day anyone can win. I think the best analogy right now is poker. On any given day with some decent bets and the right cards any decent player can beat the best. Fishing is the same. In tournament fishing it is all about the odds. In other words giving yourself the best odds of winning. Sure the mechanics of fishing make a difference in the odds but the best caster, hooksetter and fish fighter in the world cant do squat if he isnt on fish period. I dont want to over simplify it because it is very difficult to be consistent and consistently being on fish is what brings these elite teams to the top. I can go on for hours about adjusting during tournaments etc... but that isnt the point. For anyone that wants to get into competitve fishing I would suggest joining a club then fishing teams then whatever. Another route, fish teams (and donate) or maybe your money is better spent fishing as a AAA or Co Angler to see first hand how "Pro's" fish. I never fished clubs probably out of ignorance. I had never fished the back of the boat at all until I starting traveling as a AAA with a Pro. This experience was very valuable and well worth the expense. I really liked Jeff's response and I think the major point is this. YOU WILL NEVER BECOME CONSISTENT AND PLACE WELL WITHOUT CONFIDENCE. So take the steps to build confidence. Learn how to find fish and catch them consistently then learn how to tournament fish and you will find yourself improving which will keep you coming back and enjoying it more because you know you will have accomplished something when you do place or even win for that matter.
Smitty

[Ron C]

...I sincerely believe that you are missing the point of what most of the guys who have responded to your original post are saying.

Quite frankly, yes the competition is the golf course, not Tiger Woods. Yes the competition is the track (and having the fastest car), not Dale Jr. And yes, the competition is the fish and not Aaron Martens. I have finished ahead of Aaron on more than one occasion - because the fish that I caught on those days weighed more than the fish that he caught on those day - certainly not because I am a better fisherman than he is. That is the very beauty of this sport - ANYONE CAN WIN.

I'm not exactly sure what it is that you wanted John or me to say. Tournament competition has been around for a very long time and on any given day, the best guy or team on that given day wins. The rest of the field respectfully congratulates them, evaluates what they themselves could have done to have finished higher in the standings, and then prepares for the next tournament.

Those who have responded to your post have offered you several very good suggestions as to where to find the level of competition that you might be looking for. It is there for you guy. Go get it. But please understand that WON BASS (and I imagine my good friend John Barron at National Bass West) are not going to be changing our respective programs, and certainly not change them to lessen the competition, if that is even possible.

You say that you know both John and I, but unfortunately, unless you include your name with your post, we have no idea who you are; since this and your reply in the pre-fishing thread are the only posts that you have made.

I sincerely hope that you find the competitive niche that you are looking for. If and when you do, I wish you the best of luck.

[SpookFreak]

This will be my last post reguarding this subject.

I believe in competition the track, golf course and Lake offer infinate possability's. The human element is what another human can aim for and only another human can beat. Track's, Golf Courses and Lakes are a varyable that is in constant change and therefore cannot be beaten or lost to. The only thing that beats you is another human.

If I cant make you see the differance between a Pro and an AAA than with my last breath all I can say is you both really don't get it or really

good skaters

[pharmer]

I think the original posts were exactly right. Local clubs are a great place to fish against good to great fishermen and hone your skills. I know the castaic club has great guys, and as for SOCB, we've got excellent guys like Bob Lingren, gerryjig, DL, Brian D and Darreck patch just to name a few of the top guys. For 25.00 you can test yourself (and donate) against alot of good guys and some of the best local guys around. And as Ron said, with time, you actually start to beat them every once in a while.

[Colebass]

I believe Ron and John have been more than respectful reguarding this subject.

I would agree with you on one point, human's beat you. And I think racing is different from Golf or fishing. Money can with races, it buys better parts, faster motors, better tires and such! But with Golf, you know the par. You see the coarse and it's your swing, placement and abilities that help you win. The longest driver (person), does not always win, it takes a combination of things to win.

It's the same with fishing. It doesn't take the fast boat, or most expensive rods and who knows what the best line is?. If you practice and find fish, with the right lure, you can win. Aaron Martens is a great fishermen, but he does not win every tournament. I gurantee you, there are days you could beat him. There are days you could beat Tiger Woods (if you golf enough). But there are not many days you will beat Dale Earnhart or Jeff Gordon, unless you have lot's and lot's of money to buy a really fast car and put together a great crew!

It's the most even playing field in ALL of sports (except for cheaters)!

[Ron C]

...you DID say Tony Stewart, didn't you? Can you say REPEAT? Watch that 20 car go!!!

[Colebass]

he ran a NASCAR!

[kazk]

Like Ron C. I have been fishing team tournaments in Southern California since 1988. Started out fishing competitively with Rio Hondo Bassmasters in 1986. Then fished as a Pro Non-boater in U.S. Bass in 1987. Competed against the likes of John Murray, Gary Klein, Don Iovino etc. In my first pro tournament I drew Don Iovino on the second day. Learned a lot but also limited out. I think I ended up in 76th place. Drew John Murray in my third tournament and ended up in 42nd place. Due to financial events I ended up withdrawing from the pro circuit. But Don Iovino and Paul Cormany did help keep me competitive by advising me on how to be really competitive under any circumstances. I have not won any tournaments but when I enter one it is with the attitude that I want to win. Not just cash a check.
Chris Koda

[Ben M]

I total agree with Ron C and John B they should not change. Their organization have a place in Bass fishing that always allows you to test yourself against the best. I don't have to win to be a winner here. If I do better than say Rich Smith, Jay Poors, and others I know (in my case too many to name) on a tournament I still feel like a winner. Seems to me it's all about who gets the money on this post, believe me it means less to the guy who's in the money often, then the guy who wins it for the first time. Hopefully, me some day.

There ARE other aspects of Bass fishing. (Really Har har!) Yes! Organizational event like John and Ron offer strong competition. Fund raiser Tournaments, where everyone wins just knowing they have donated to a good cause, maybe more to your liking or included in your quest to fishing competitively. Clubs offer lower cost challenges, or just a friendly wager amongst 2 guys fishing together for the day.

My Dad always say to me "Your never gonna learn sometime from someone dumper than yourself." As you will never really know how good or how your talent is progressing as a sportman if they keep lowering the bar, or isolating the pros or the hot stick locals. Baseballs, Babe Ruth hit 60 home run in fewer game than they play now. I can't even tell you who hit more. It doesn't matter to me, because the bar has been lower by more games and a longer season, Oh and drugs.

I love to test myself regularly and I'm willing to pay for the service. Getting my @ss handed to me, makes me stronger and now that I can do NBW or WON ….. I will. John and Ron Don't fluff it up for me. I love it ruff and tough. "What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger." I forgot who said that, but it's true… If I get there I want to earn it like the guys who do it now.

Just my 02