Cheating/rule violation

stickbait · Post by **stickbait** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:38 am

Seems there is alot of talk about cheating and rules..

So my question to you all....

If you break a rule does that constitute cheating in your eyes??? What is cheating ?? Does a rule violation, lets say late to get checked in, drinking beer on the water or cutting someone off,cheating ?? Do those fall under the same area as handing off a fish or caged fish or speeding in a 5 mph zone...

I guess my thought is we have to be careful while using the wording "CHEATING" it is not good for the industry nor the players to be labeled cheaters for a simple rule violation..and should they all hold the same punishment, whatever that maybe..??? Seems there is no set guide lines within the industry.

It seems to me like alot of guys don't understand the difference and are ready to yell foul without thinking or understanding what's going on.. and want to class everyone a cheater, a perfect example would be someone finding a barrel or a cage and thinks that they are used in bassfishing for cheating??

Should all simple rule violations be disclosed to all parties fishing the event and taking it one step further, should "cheaters" be disclosed to the world or kept under wraps..

Thoughts ???

longshot · Post by **longshot** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:42 am

My opinion is yes they are all cheating. If it gives you an advantage over those that are following the rules then that is a form of cheating. That said I think the severity of the cheat should correspond with the punishment.
I understand cheating is cheating BUT caging fish and running a 5 mph can't be considered the same even though they would both be "cheating" IMHO.
All I know is I'm glad I'm not a TD.

stickbait · Post by **stickbait** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:32 am

longshot wrote:My opinion is yes they are all cheating. If it gives you an advantage over those that are following the rules then that is a form of cheating. That said I think the severity of the cheat should correspond with the punishment.
I understand cheating is cheating BUT caging fish and running a 5 mph can't be considered the same even though they would both be "cheating" IMHO.
All I know is I'm glad I'm not a TD.

So with your thinking...

I was late before.. am I a cheater..I think not... and I disagree with you.. I simple did not judge my run time..BUT I did break a rule..

I'll bet ya there are many tournament anglers that have been late.. you going to call them all cheaters and add them to the list??

What about the guy that miscounted and dumped 6 fish in the tub, we have had a few bigger names do this .. are they to be callled cheaters..do we add them to the list??? Was their intent to weight in 6,one more than anyone else.. or just a brain fart that should be dealt with as a DQ and be done with it..????

We have had several big names in B.A.S.S and F.L.W over the years that dqed themselfs because they broke a rule and caught the misstake themselfs.... are we going to call them all cheaters.???

"Cheater" is a heavy word for a tournament fishermen to deal with when a misstake is made.. we just need to be sure on the usage before plasting it all over the internet.. IMO Because there is a difference..

Brian D. · Post by **Brian D.** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:31 pm

I'd bet you a bag of Robos that each question that you posted would be interpreted and handled differently between every Tournament Director in every Organization out there. It behooves the Orgs to follow a standardized play book when making these rulings. The play book should be created amongst themselves -- not so that it would cover every scenario, but enough info to guide a director in making a fair ruling if something does come up.

kraetzer · Post by **kraetzer** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:33 pm

For me you answered your question righ there:

stickbait wrote:Was their intent to weight in 6,one more than anyone else.. or just a brain fart

If somebody intentionally breaks a rule to gain an advantage he's a cheater to me - that simple.
On the other hand proofing somebody did it intentionally -> not that simple

longshot · Post by **longshot** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:55 pm

Being late is not cheating it's a disadvantage to be late usually 1lb per minute w 5 min DQED. These rules are usually stated in the tourny rules and everyone that reads them knows the rules and can do what they want with the 5 minute rule. It's even for everyone and that makes it fair.
Running a 5mph to get in on time is cheating.

CN · Post by CN » Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:10 pm

Well having a beer or shot may be a violation but I don't see how it could be to your advantage more than likely a disadvantage so is that cheating. Not in my book so labeling all rules violation as cheating is wrong.

Even being late, what kind of cheating could one be doing. If you were you still have to be in on time so your whole effort would be wasted.

Andy Giannini · Post by **Andy Giannini** » Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:54 am

Intentional cheating to gain advantage, is different than an unintentional rule violation.

Either can get you DQd, but they are not in the same category.

Accidently losing count of my fish or not being able to see them for the green fish saver in the well (in that damn front Ranger livewell) is different than bringing an extra 5 pounder already in the boat before blast off.

.02 A.G.

Bill Hutcheson · Post by **Bill Hutcheson** » Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:09 am

Most every TD I have worked with has a level head and uses "intent" as the determining factor in applying penalties which can range from a simple disqualification to an outright ban for life. I have issued both in my time.

The criminal justice system is set up with infractions, misdemeanors, and felonies to deal with "rules violations" I doubt you will ever see the fishing community move to this type of standard

I am sure that most of you out there have a parking/traffic ticket or two under your belt. Does this make you a criminal? Hardly.

Likewise, a rule violation does not necessarily make someone a cheater. Many an angler has been late due to mechanical problems or simply misjudging the running time to get back to the marina. They have also in the heat of a good bite miscounted fish in a livewell. I do not consider these to be cheating, although I will still DQ the angler/team based upon this.

I have seen many an angler/coangler who do not have their lifejackets on while the main motor is running. This usually happens during boat launch or coming back to the docks to weigh in. If a TD wanted to be a hardcase, he could probably DQ half the field on any given day if he wanted to make this rule black & white. Based upon this alone, everyone out there is a "cheater" if you are looking to use this label.

Cheating occurs when someone crosses the line between a unintentional violation and moves towards a consciensious decision to stack the odds in thier favor by knowingly violating the rules. This could include taking caged fish, having fish handed off to you, adding weights to your fish, fishing live bait, knowingly fishing in an off limits area, etc. The main criteria in crossing the line into "Cheating" is doing so with intent.

I hope that sheds some light on your inquiry.

Bassphish · Post by **Bassphish** » Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:03 am

Think of it in this light. Is it ethical......? But then again you would hope everyone would have the basics to answer that question. JB

stickbait · Post by **stickbait** » Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:12 am

Bill Hutcheson wrote:Most every TD I have worked with has a level head and uses "intent" as the determining factor in applying penalties which can range from a simple disqualification to an outright ban for life. I have issued both in my time.

The criminal justice system is set up with infractions, misdemeanors, and felonies to deal with "rules violations" I doubt you will ever see the fishing community move to this type of standard

I am sure that most of you out there have a parking/traffic ticket or two under your belt. Does this make you a criminal? Hardly.

Likewise, a rule violation does not necessarily make someone a cheater. Many an angler has been late due to mechanical problems or simply misjudging the running time to get back to the marina. They have also in the heat of a good bite miscounted fish in a livewell. I do not consider these to be cheating, although I will still DQ the angler/team based upon this.

I have seen many an angler/coangler who do not have their lifejackets on while the main motor is running. This usually happens during boat launch or coming back to the docks to weigh in. If a TD wanted to be a hardcase, he could probably DQ half the field on any given day if he wanted to make this rule black & white. Based upon this alone, everyone out there is a "cheater" if you are looking to use this label.

Cheating occurs when someone crosses the line between a unintentional violation and moves towards a consciensious decision to stack the odds in thier favor by knowingly violating the rules. This could include taking caged fish, having fish handed off to you, adding weights to your fish, fishing live bait, knowingly fishing in an off limits area, etc. The main criteria in crossing the line into "Cheating" is doing so with intent.

I hope that sheds some light on your inquiry.

Thanks Bill..

I just don't want guys misusing the word "cheating" for a simple rule violation.. Guys get Dqed and the rumors fly that the team or person were cheating .. which is not the case..

I like I said it is a heavy word to use and we have to be careful for the industry and how it is used..

Thanks again...

amberlynnbob · Post by **amberlynnbob** » Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:50 am

Not every rule u break constitutes cheating. There are infractions where u aare penalized but still able to compete in the next days evnt and so forth. There are also rules that will get u DQ"d for that event...but not for others...and then there are major rules breaking that get u banned and even in trouble with the law...For instance if someone brought in six fish instead of five or culled inside the no culling line they would be dq'd...but I wouldn't see them at the next event and think HEY they cheated last time they should not be fishin....just my 2 cents....

Levy · Post by **Levy** » Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:56 am

amberlynnbob wrote:For instance if someone brought in six fish instead of five

Well if you are the owner of AC and knowingly weigh in 5 fish and keep the 6th and smallest fish in the livewell, that is cheating. The key word being knowingly.

Bill Hutcheson · Post by **Bill Hutcheson** » Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:21 pm

Thanks Levy - you and responses like yours to civilized discourse among those who ask a question are exactly the reason that I rarely post on WB anymore............