Water waste ?

[Old dog]

I checked the water level at Oroville and after the rain it went up a foot after the rain great, right? Trouble is over the next 3 days it dropped 4 F...ing feet. WHY? I duck hunted and noticed they have started flooding the harvested rice fields, I assume the 2 are connected. This is done twice to cause the rice straw to degrade or decay so the biomass goes back into the fields. This used to be done by burning the fields in the past. They still allow the farmers to burn 10-20% of their fields to control a rice fungus associated with the flooding or degrading process.
Now for my ? In the severe drought that we're in how can we afford to flood 6-800,000 acres of rice fields TWICE. I know they recover a lot of the water but the loss to absorption and evaporation must be incredible. I can't believe they can't come up with another way to degrade the rice straw. I wonder if this is just big agriculture controlling OUR water. We need food I understand that, but we must be able to handle the straw in another way. Below is the Ca web sight for the reservoir levels. http://cdec.water.ca.gov/misc/daily_res.html

[mark poulson]

That sucks!

[Wolfeman]

Thanks for adding that link. I was looking for something like that.
I was wondering what rivers will get new dams when Prop 1 passes.
Looks like we've already got dams on every freaking river.

And to the point of this email...Why are we going water-intensive crops in the desert?
- Wolfeman

[mark poulson]

Thanks for adding that link. I was looking for something like that.
I was wondering what rivers will get new dams when Prop 1 passes.
Looks like we've already got dams on every freaking river.

And to the point of this email...Why are we going water-intensive crops in the desert?
- Wolfeman

Amen! We're subsidizing rich farmers.

[steve0806]

[url][/u]http://www.bcaqmd.org/page/agricultural-burning.php

Don't you people think the ag industry would rather burn? Most likely they can't burn because of gov't regulations. Rather than make unfounded accusations, why don't you research the facts. If you are going to accuse farmers of stealing "YOUR" water and wasting it, tell us who is selling them this water and why are they "wasting" it.

[reddog]

Since the farmers are ALWAYS getting the blame for stealing water, stealing land, being rich, and wasting resources, I only wanted to chime in and say that this is a complete BS theory. Farmers work ALL the time if they are going to be successful. It truly is a way of life not a job. They are the guys we see driving through the dirt roads beating the hell out of their trucks and tractors while we are zipping off to the lake to go FISHING or out to the field to go HUNTING. As far as the water being used to begin decomp of the rice, trust me when I say with absolute certainty they would MUCH rather burn the rice straw as the clean up is way easier and the carbon return from the burn is better to reload into the ground for the following year. That said the state of CA in its infinite wisdom let the absolute farce of GLOBAL WARMING scare them into believing that the burning of the rice straw was harmful to the environment and therefor its now basically illegal outside of the 10-20% they have to get special permission for. Next I must add that the water used by farmers is immediately beginning its trip back through the natural filter of earth on its way to the underground aquifers where it then eventually is available for OUR consumption again. Remember that when bitching about what farmers are doing and think about it the next time your neighborhood is watering your lawns and washing the range rovers and the water is then running down a concrete or plastic pipe to a concrete ditch and on eventually to the ocean where we wait (how long?) for it to return as rainfall to then begin its trip back to the aquifers. Vote NO on the tunnels!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[mark poulson]

Agribusiness is not small farmers driving tractors. It's multi millionaires like Stewart Resnick being driven around in their limos and private jets.
Small, family-owned farms are a dying breed, thanks to big money agribusiness. Who do you think runs the banks that force farmers to sell when their loans for ever more expensive equipment come due, or they fall behind on their payments? Here's a hint...it's not poor farmers, it's rich bankers.
Air pollution rules aren't wrong, they are just the price we all pay to have our food grown and harvested without harming the children and adults who live down wind.
And water-intensive crops, like rice and fruit and nut trees, are a poor choice to grow in semi-arid regions, unless you have access to lots of water. There was never a lot of water where these crops are being grown, but agribusiness has found a way to buy land cheap, leverage old water laws to their advantage, and make a fortune with us subsidizing their water. There is no way they could pay for the water otherwise. Look at the rates they are charged by their local water board.
If you're still trying to say global warming isn't real, there's not much sense in arguing the point with you. Just look at the world's weather over the last fifty years, and tell us how it's not changing, based on the facts.
We need to protect and enhance the water that we still have, and to try to overcome the lack of action over the last fifty years in terms of rebuilding our water infrastructure.
No on the Tunnels!
Yes on Prop. 1!

[reddog]

I know multiple families who still own all their land that they farm all over the state from north to south, you're right there are GIANT Co. who have bought land and started farming but that is not a constant. Stop watching CNN and go out and meet some of these folks I think you'll be surprised how many are actually still privately owned. It's true that some of them are very smart and business savvy and they have become a "large Company" but isn't that the American Dream? Why would you label them evil corps. who leverage water etc. just because they're successful? Shame on you. Check the numbers dude. Ice is actually greater right now than ever for this time of year, polar bears are actually flourishing, the ocean is not much higher, and the temp has only risen .6 degrees since '78 a natural rise for the global period we're in. On top of all that cars, factories, hell life!, has become much cleaner. The lack of water is from pop., sprawl in LA and our shipping water down there, they have enough water for the year now in their own reservoirs. Our drought is a statistical average of around every 11 or so years, we have just devoted to much water in '10- '11 to keeping salmon levels happy. That reminds me, if you're all in for the environment, might be that they weren't just flooding that rice. They are using rice fields to grow salmon fry for replants. I'm not sure you were aware of that. Fires used to be naturally occurring in mass every year from lighting but we've stopped that since we moved in to the woods and now have to protect the populations living there, not sure the rice burning wasn't offset by the lack of those fires but that I'll give you could be argued either way. Just step outside the media hyped headlines for a while and think about the individual feeding his family and providing jobs before we crucify them for using water for farming, after all I know everybody got excited about the tech $'s from CA but in the end it used to be the 8th largest economy in the world and that was from farming way before we all had "stupid phones".

[Andy Lippert]

I know multiple families who still own all their land that they farm all over the state from north to south, you're right there are GIANT Co. who have bought land and started farming but that is not a constant. Stop watching CNN and go out and meet some of these folks I think you'll be surprised how many are actually still privately owned. It's true that some of them are very smart and business savvy and they have become a "large Company" but isn't that the American Dream? Why would you label them evil corps. who leverage water etc. just because they're successful? Shame on you. Check the numbers dude. Ice is actually greater right now than ever for this time of year, polar bears are actually flourishing, the ocean is not much higher, and the temp has only risen .6 degrees since '78 a natural rise for the global period we're in. On top of all that cars, factories, hell life!, has become much cleaner. The lack of water is from pop., sprawl in LA and our shipping water down there, they have enough water for the year now in their own reservoirs. Our drought is a statistical average of around every 11 or so years, we have just devoted to much water in '10- '11 to keeping salmon levels happy. That reminds me, if you're all in for the environment, might be that they weren't just flooding that rice. They are using rice fields to grow salmon fry for replants. I'm not sure you were aware of that. Fires used to be naturally occurring in mass every year from lighting but we've stopped that since we moved in to the woods and now have to protect the populations living there, not sure the rice burning wasn't offset by the lack of those fires but that I'll give you could be argued either way. Just step outside the media hyped headlines for a while and think about the individual feeding his family and providing jobs before we crucify them for using water for farming, after all I know everybody got excited about the tech $'s from CA but in the end it used to be the 8th largest economy in the world and that was from farming way before we all had "stupid phones".

+1,000! Great post.

You guys sound like a bunch of Occupy Wall Street whiners, complaining about the successes of others. Since when has it become so terrible to excel in whatever industry you're in and make as much money as you can in this country? Unreal. That attitude coupled with incorrect assumptions about why the rice fields are flooded, human contribution to "climate change" (which is the OFFICIAL VERBIAGE NOW BECAUSE GLOBAL "WARMING" has been all but debunked!), and the water propaganda spewed by you guys and also forwarded and posted by the moderators of this website--make me quickly realize why I never post on here anymore--it's futile to do so.

As reddog said--turn off your tv's for once, and stop drinking the kool-aid.

[FSHRFWL]

Im not a farmer!!! I am however directly employed by them! I make a modest living helping grow the food we all eat. Guess what, Ive bought a boat and spend money at tackle shops and such. So those so called rich farmers support my family AND add money to the fishing economy. Take the water away and take the industry out and you take away my living and the money that myself and so many of my colleges put into the fishing economy by buying boats and tackle, taking guide trips etc

ALL of the farmers that I work for are small family owned and operated farms. They work hard and most are on the 3-4th generation. They worked with their fathers and grandfathers and now their kids on the same ground.

I go to church with most of them, they have kids who go to school with my kids. They love when they see my kids on their ranches working with me!

Ag in the valley it THE BIGGEST industry (30% of all jobs in the valley are related to Agriculture) and without it you will all suffer!

How about all the water that the other "big corporations" in the valley and Silicon valley use to produce the technology that most of goes overseas! What about all the amusement parks, ball parks, football fields, arenas, golf courses etc, etc in this state that use tons of water. NO ONE is gripping about that but everyone grips about an industry that feeds us!

[Whoopbass]

Damn right were griping about the farms sucking up all the water. Farms are taking 75-80% of the water that falls in this state. Enough is enough. We need a limit on farm acreage in this state. Anybody that has a few acres has planted Almond trees on them. These "almonds" are not feeding very many people around here.
If this drought last another year or two then there won't be any water to put your boat in anywhere because it has all gone to water these friggin almond orchards.

[mark poulson]

Damn right were griping about the farms sucking up all the water. Farms are taking 75-80% of the water that falls in this state. Enough is enough. We need a limit on farm acreage in this state. Anybody that has a few acres has planted Almond trees on them. These "almonds" are not feeding very many people around here.
If this drought last another year or two then there won't be any water to put your boat in anywhere because it has all gone to water these friggin almond orchards.

X2
Making money in business is fine. Making money at the expense of others is wrong.
Planting water intensive crops in arid land, like almonds and pistachios, and then using publicly owned water to irrigate them that could irrigate people instead, even if you do pay for it, is wrong when it deprives the rest of us of drinking water.

[steve0806]

Damn right were griping about the farms sucking up all the water. Farms are taking 75-80% of the water that falls in this state. Enough is enough. We need a limit on farm acreage in this state. Anybody that has a few acres has planted Almond trees on them. These "almonds" are not feeding very many people around here.
If this drought last another year or two then there won't be any water to put your boat in anywhere because it has all gone to water these friggin almond orchards.

You said "farms are taking 75-80% of the water that falls in this state." That statement is just flat out false. I don't know where you people are getting those figures. I've seen that statement a number of times on this forum. The facts are that on average, 50% goes to the environment, 40% goes to ag and 10% goes to urban uses. Mind you, that's water that falls in this state.
PPIC.org

[steve0806]

X2. Mark says:
Making money in business is fine. Making money at the expense of others is wrong.
Planting water intensive crops in arid land, like almonds and pistachios, and then using publicly owned water to irrigate them that could irrigate people instead, even if you do pay for it, is wrong when it deprives the rest of us of drinking water.[/quote]

I just can't believe what you are saying. Farmers sign long term contracts to buy water. Let's say they agree to buy 5,000 acre feet per year for 30 years. The price they agree to pay covers the cost to build the infrastructure, the bond cost to finance the project and the annual cost to manage and operate the project.

To my way of thinking, that 5,000 acre feet is no longer, as you say, "public water."

But that's not the end of the transaction. The amount of water the farmer actually receives from year to year is dependent on precipitation each year. In a dry year, he might get anywhere from 0 to 80% of the 5,000 acre feet. Yet, he still has to pay for all but a small fraction of his full 5,000 AF. Now add in the additional water which the environmentalists continually litigate for and the supply the farmer receives is even less.

The State Water Project was expected to provide contractors about 75% of the total contract allocation on an annual basis, on average. Because of environmental litigation which has become an expensive way of life in the water industry, the expected 75% yield has been reduced to something like 60%. Don't forget, the farmer pays the full price while only getting 60%. You really want to know why small farmers have a problem surviving? You still have questions why farmers invest in crops that maximize their revenues?

I'm not a farmer, never have been a farmer. I do have a lot of admiration for what they do for our society and economy. Every $ in ag revenues provides $5 in the economy.

I've never been envious of successful people and i really don't like seeing the envy being displayed on a fishing forum.

[Whoopbass]

You said "farms are taking 75-80% of the water that falls in this state." That statement is just flat out false. I don't know where you people are getting those figures. I've seen that statement a number of times on this forum. The facts are that on average, 50% goes to the environment, 40% goes to ag and 10% goes to urban uses. Mind you, that's water that falls in this state.
PPIC.org[/quote]

I have seen that figure on tv and in newspapers. Been seeing it for years. I don't know if its right. I don't know if anyone knows the actual numbers. I doubt your numbers are right either.
The Ag industry has been lying for years about the impact of the amount of water they take. They have an agenda and they have the financial means to get what they want. Nobody I know is against farmers but there has to be a limit on what they take. Don't worry Steve the farmers will win out on this water deal and all we can do is bitch about it and threaten to move out of this state.

[FSHRFWL]

No worries! When ya'll get hungry fry up a few plastic worms for dinner. Get a clue people YOU HAVE TO EAT BEFORE YOU CAN FISH!

[Whoopbass]

Fry up some plastic worms.......eh? Is that your best argument?
Were all going to turn into squirrel's around here if were eat what's grown here. Food is grown around the world not just here in the San Joaquin Valley. Why destroy what we have here so the Chinese can eat almonds?

[Old dog]

Wow! Great back & forth glad I brought it up. But as usual nobody addressed the real ? Maybe I stated it poorly. So lets try this. Isn't there some way to return the bio mass of the rice straw back into the soil without flooding almost a million acres of land with our precious water or burning it which puts dangerous silicates into the air? I do agree using water in our valley deserts to grow high $ crops like almonds and pistachios might not be the best use of our water. I know I shouldn't have added that last sentence.

[crawdaddy]

Don't forget that a lot of rice fields are used by duck hunters and duck season is just getting under way. I know some hunters have to pay money to the farmers for diesel fuel to pump ground water and flood the fields to hunt. So it may not just be the farmers that want the fields flooded.

[ash]

Don't forget that a lot of rice fields are used by duck hunters and duck season is just getting under way. I know some hunters have to pay money to the farmers for diesel fuel to pump ground water and flood the fields to hunt. So it may not just be the farmers that want the fields flooded.

Another overlooked aspect of flooding the rice fields is that they act as Wetland Estuary's that are rest areas and feeding grounds for migratory birds. Creating a surrogate wetlands from the ones that were destroyed by development. http://calrice.org/pdf/wildlife/Species-Report.pdf I'm not saying that this is a good reason to dump Orroville and that there are not further issues here. But the knee jerk reaction of don't let farmers burn it pollutes the air, don't let farmers flood, it takes away from the water, the farmers are getting tired of having to jump through hoops and its getting tougher each year for them to support the farm so they start throwing their hands up in the air and say forget about it. I'll plant almonds and sale directly to Blue Diamond and all ya all figure out where your food is going to come from tomorrow.

The issue is that we no longer know who to trust, special interests and lobbyists have us spinning around and calling the city when you water on the wrong day of the week - there are ways for real conservation of water and giving tax credits for companies to upgrade their systems to closed loop or re-capture systems are ways to incentive's industry to make changes. Now were talking millions of gallons of water being conserved and re-used.

[mark poulson]

Don't forget that a lot of rice fields are used by duck hunters and duck season is just getting under way. I know some hunters have to pay money to the farmers for diesel fuel to pump ground water and flood the fields to hunt. So it may not just be the farmers that want the fields flooded.

Another overlooked aspect of flooding the rice fields is that they act as Wetland Estuary's that are rest areas and feeding grounds for migratory birds. Creating a surrogate wetlands from the ones that were destroyed by development. http://calrice.org/pdf/wildlife/Species-Report.pdf I'm not saying that this is a good reason to dump Orroville and that there are not further issues here. But the knee jerk reaction of don't let farmers burn it pollutes the air, don't let farmers flood, it takes away from the water, the farmers are getting tired of having to jump through hoops and its getting tougher each year for them to support the farm so they start throwing their hands up in the air and say forget about it. I'll plant almonds and sale directly to Blue Diamond and all ya all figure out where your food is going to come from tomorrow.

The issue is that we no longer know who to trust, special interests and lobbyists have us spinning around and calling the city when you water on the wrong day of the week - there are ways for real conservation of water and giving tax credits for companies to upgrade their systems to closed loop or re-capture systems are ways to incentive's industry to make changes. Now were talking millions of gallons of water being conserved and re-used.

All true!