Proposal - Bass West, Best of the West Tour - Feedback wntd

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 10:48 am

Just that I know guys who were signed up and had deposits in didn't fish.... Luckily they had guys on the waiting list who wanted to get into those events to replace them.

Tom

Gary Dobyns · Post by **Gary Dobyns** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 10:52 am

swimbait · Post by **swimbait** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 11:02 am

I still liked the original idea of one circuit that covers the entire state.
Also liked the idea of putting one somewhere on the central coast like naci/san antonio. Also brought to mind... what about San Diego? San Vicente, or El Cap? The lakes are small but they fish big team tourneys there all the time.

What if you added one more tourney and the circuit had either:

Clear Lake/Delta
Oroville/Shasta/Berryessa
Melones/Pedro
Naci/San Antonio
Casitas/Castaic/DVL
El Cap/San V

That would be a knarly circuit IMO

In regards to having some limit on who can enter based on winnings, my vote would be to let everyone fish. Kind of takes the prestige away from doing well if all you can say is "I beat the best teams in CA ... except for the really good guys". Plus, I think more people would have an interest in following the results of the tournaments if the top guys were fishing, which would be a selling point to your circuits sponsors.

In the end you can't please everyone but I still like the concept.

Gary Dobyns · Post by **Gary Dobyns** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 11:39 am

Dam, me and Cooch agree. First time for everything. Done right, this could be a great idea. The north will be easier than the south, maybe. Remember these guys live there and deal with the smaller lakes every day. You will need some advise from them on when and where to fish.

JimmyReese · Post by **JimmyReese** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 12:05 pm

Is that $50,000 per year?.... or Career earnings ?

Just curious!

I like your style Tommy!

JT-Madera · Post by **JT-Madera** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 12:54 pm

Tom;

It only took one day to find a great partner....to fish this circuit...Please;

1. keep it five tournaments

2. do NOT restrict the field by applying limits on winnings....if We win I don't want to have to say I'm the Best in the West "except these teams" We don't care who we're fishing against....

3. Do not split to a North/South circuit

4. Do not lower the deposit or entry fee's

5. Please increase the number of teams allowed into the TOC to at least 40, even if you only payback the first 20 teams, at least more guys will feel like they have a better chance of winning the boats...

6. consider spreading the tournaments spring and fall...Like three spring tournaments and two in the fall

7. no six hour tournaments

will the off limits be Monday/Wed with Thur/Fri prefish
and two weeks off limits for the TOC...

where do we send the check

Jim Conlow Sr. · Post by **Jim Conlow Sr.** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 2:09 pm

My suggestions were in the interest of getting more participation into your tournaments.
I havent played poker for several years but would be willing to play poker against the top Pro bass fishermen in the state of california. What I wouldnt do is go to Reno and get into a thousand dollar take out game against those guys who play there day in and day out. I would simply be throwing my money away.
There are a tremendous number of bass fishermen who would love to enter high stakes tournaments, but do not do it because they dont feel that they can rise to the level of compitition that there is in these tournaments. They think they would simply be throwing their money away. These guys dont care didily squat about the prestiege of winning against Dobyns they would simply like to get a paycheck once in a while
These are the guys who work for companies who do not pay for sick days and who do not have paid vacations, and cannot take days off during the week (even one day hurts the family budget), You would be very surprised at how many of us that there are in that category. But they would pony up the entry fees if they thought they had a chance.
No Matter what you do, why would you want to limit the number of entrants. more entries means better winnings.
I have nothing against the top pros and I think that the shared weight pro/ams are a wonderful venue.
Try analyzing the reason as to why the frog tournaments have a very large turnout and why Vince gets the tournouts that he does with an admitted low payback. In the case of the frog tournament its in my opinion, because I think that with one bait I can be as good as anyone. Especially when Dobyns and Barrack and other pro staffers were not allowed to fish. In the second frog tournament I was beaten by Robert Lee, Dee Thomas, Barracks partner Chris and one other guy whose name I cant remember. I took 5th with 4 fish total for 2 days all of those guys who beat me had 6
If you want to settle for 100 boats do it the way you first lined it out. If you want 200 boats do it the way I have suggested. I would like you to have the options but add a column to your spread sheet that shows who paid into the options so that we can all do the math. I know you will more participation in the options if you give us an accounting.
With bigger participation you should be able to get bigger and better sponsors which will help you Immensly with your balance sheet.
I recognize the necessity businesswise for having boats be you first prize.
What everyone needs to realize is that without profit the tournament organizations simply cannot stay in business.

Just some food for thought

Jim

Noluk · Post by **Noluk** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 2:22 pm

I like the idea alot. But there are a few things to consider. Nevada and Arizona have LOTS of great sticks and some waters that can test the best. Make Havasu or Mead one of the destination. To be honest I think the whole circuit should test every facet of a fishermans game.

For Venue:
1. Clearlake or Delta (alternate each year)

2. Shasta or Oroville (alternate)

3. Don Pedro or Melones (alternate)

4. Castaic or Casitas or Cachuma (socal lakes depend on water levels)

5. Mead or Havasu (alternate)

That should eliminate alot of the hometown fgavorites and you only get to fish a lake once every 2 years. Furthermore I would suggest moving at least 1 of the boats to the angler of the year standings. AOY deserves a boat. Base the points on all 5 tournaments, no throwout. We are measuring consistency across multiple challenges.

Let 30 people qualify for the TOC. Stagger some of the money in the TOC a bit. Maybe 1000 for 20th and gradualy raise the pot each time. 5th should be worth more than 20th. Media coverage is important for all teams so guarantee the winning TOC team and the AOY team some magazine coverage and possibly even a cover.

Mandatory Polygraphs for the top 3 finishers and 2 other random teams.

sTony · Post by **sTony** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 4:21 pm

Not sure if you ever fished El Cap or San V Swimbait but you can barely get on pad without running into the other side of these lakes. Too small for any field of size.

I still have a problem with forking over all the dough so it can sit in someone else's bank account, but if that's what has to be done I'll likely still get in.

Also, Castaic is supposed to have a severe draw down come Fall and who knows how long that'll last. Casitas is probably a tough one to get NorCal boats to turn up at.

I liked Swimbait's lake rotation as well except for the South part:

Clear Lake or Delta
Oroville or Shasta
Don Pedro or New Melones
Mead or Diamond Valley
Havasu or Pleasant

No reason to throw Columbia River or Powell into the mix as most the guys in those areas aren't as liekly to want to come here for the remainder of the schedule.

Food for thought.

sTony

Scott Shambre · Post by **Scott Shambre** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 4:44 pm

Tom, stick to your 5 lake idea that covers the entire state. I think out of all of the bass guys up-n-down the state, OVER 100 will commit to this deal.

DO NOT restrict career winnings, if someone doesn't like, let the coward stay home. This is a high stakes game no matter what circuit you fish and you WILL lose some legitamacy if you BLOCK certain guys out.

5 fish limit and $2500 UP FRONT and you will get the teams based on your other criteria.

Scott Shambre
FOLSOM BASS LEAGUE
www.folsombassleague.com
www.rangerboats.com
www.mercuryoutboards.com
C&C Marine Citrus Heights
www.okumafishing.com
www.powellco.com (Powell Rods)
www.basscatcher.com (Markey Baits)
www.roboworm.com
www.limitlures.com
Susie's Country Oaks Cafe

TheFLY · Post by **TheFLY** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 5:46 pm

Okay, I'll chime in on this ... I LOVE Tom's creation of the North/South Split. Why? Well, I'd fish it if all of the lakes were in NoCal, but if I KNOW I have to go to SoCal and commit now ... I know it will be touger on my work schedule and tougher to find an partner. Probably could not do it in that case. I also fully appreciate the concept that fuel costs are a total killer these days.

I'm not crazy about only 3 events, though. And I don't like that it might be limited to 60 boats.

What if it were 4 events in the North and 4 in the South? For the North you can add Berryessa/Folsom/Sonoma to the already listed choices and you could add Mead/Havasu to the Southern ones. (Thereby looping in other states as well.)

That way guys are still gunning for 5 tournaments ... 4 plus the TOC. I like the idea that the best in the North compete at the TOC against the best in the South.

How about 75 boats per event and then 30 at the TOC (top 15 from each region).

This thing is getting really, really interesting.

Just like Jimmy said, I definitely like your style, Tom. You think outside of the box and when folks hit you with new ideas you do not ramble about why they won't work ... you run with it and get feedback. It is a terrific style.

Oh ... and if you don't want to run the numbers with 75 boats, then do 60, but increase the entry fee per team to $600 or $750. That is another way to get the revenues up.

And if you are going to ultimately go with the full state and 5 tournaments, I'd consider NO pre-fish for the 15 days prior to the tournament. That way, if guys like me want to go and fish some of those lakes we've never seen, we can, but we won't feel pressure to make TWO trips down there (weekend before and weekend of event). Also, guys would similarly save one more day of vacation/sickleave per event Friday would be a travel day instead of Thursday being the travel day and Friday the pre-fish day.

So, to summarize this long and rambling post:

* North and South Split
* 4 Events in Each Region
* Adding Mead/Havasu in South and Berryessa/Folsom/Sonoma in North
* 75 Boats per Event
* Consider increasing entry fee to $600 or $750
* TOC to be top 15 in North and top 15 in South at a lake not fished in any North or South event.
* Could we then still have 3 boats at the TOC?

Thanks for your work on this Tom ... you are great for our sport.

-Craig Gottwals

Ken Mah · Post by **Ken Mah** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:26 pm

tell me when you want my entry. gary and I are in.

Ken Mah

sTony · Post by **sTony** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 7:29 pm

I think we're going goo-goo and gaa-gaa over this when you look at the numbers there really isn't a lot of reason to be all that hot and bothered about it. I've got no problem with guys making money running tournaments but if you do the math on this project you're talking about ALOT of money being held back and also held for a long period of time.

Banks are paying a fair amount of money for short-term deposits and it's not being figured into the payback at all. Throw in the actual costs to fish these five events and the payback is poor below the top two. If you add in the dollars that the communities might be willing to cough up to hold these events in their backyards the payback looks even weaker.

$23,800 payback and you're taking in $50,000 plus interest plus sponsorships. I'm not sure how much is being paid for boats but if you run the numbers the dollars being held back don't equate to a great deal. $37,000 plus three boats VALUED at $36,500 but we all know they aren't costing anywhere near that amount. And more importantly won't sell for anywhere near that much to the guys that win them.

It's a 47% payback per tournament and you have to win a tournament to make any money at all. You'd have to get two second place finishes to make a few bucks. Everybody else is loser after expenses.

I mean you're talking about taking a quarter of a million bucks, accruing interest for months on end and doling out in small amounts every couple few months.

I like the idea on its surface but if you dig down a bit deeper, it's not gonna fly unless the payback changes significantly.

sTony

PS - Plus you might have a problem filling out the field if pros do indeed sign up with other pros that would ordinarily being competing against each other in ProAm events.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:03 pm

Hey Tony -
I appreciate you playing devil's advocate.. I really do. However, I don't think you ran the numbers or seriously thought out the purpose of this trail before responding to this. Or maybe you did, and just missed the bus.. not sure. However, the purpose of this trail is not a single event... Its the season on the whole. In a single event, there will be locals at every lake.. but, on the season there is nobody who knows all the lakes... therefore if I know one, and you know one.. and the rest are pretty much unknown to both of us... after 5 events.. we've played on about as even a ground as possible. That is why the TOC is where the money is. Top 3 boats... the rest get the majority of their full season's money back. If you don't think you can get in the top 20 out of 100... maybe you should stick to your zip code and not fish this thing. This is to find the true "Kings of California" not to find out who can win an event. We all know there are guys like Dobyns, Reese, Tuck, etc.. etc.. that can win an event... I want to know who can do it on a vast variety of waters and be consistent all year long!

Now let me comment on your jabs... I only have a minor in math so maybe someone with a degree in it, can break it down further for me... but, here is the way I see it.

I think we're going goo-goo and gaa-gaa over this when you look at the numbers there really isn't a lot of reason to be all that hot and bothered about it. I've got no problem with guys making money running tournaments but if you do the math on this project you're talking about ALOT of money being held back and also held for a long period of time.

Tell me one tournament trail that pays back every dollar they take in and I will gladly be at every one of their events. Fact is, none do! With all do respect to 100%, WON, ABA, National Bass etc... They aren't doing it for free! Trust me... who would do all that much work for free...

Let me break that down for you ----- One Tournament trail may be close.. but there is always the $5 insurance fee (Not sure who his insurance guy is, but I think ours runs about $60 per event which leaves a lot left over for Bank account insurance. Lets say 40 boat average @ $5 a boat.. Thats $200 approximate $150. (We'll use that number again later.)

Late fee's I paid a $25 late fee to fish a recent event... How many guys pay late fee's each event.. A LOT! For teams it's $10. Lets say at least 15 out of the 40 teams decide and have to pay late fees (With my experience as a TD, I am sure it averages more than that) ... thats $150 more dollars.. (We'll use that number again later.)

Add to that, the yearly membership $40. Do I get a Magazine, a paper, heck even a membership card? Where does that money go? How many teams do you think fish these trails in a year? 250? 300? At least... So we'll use 300 * 40. Thats $12,000 per year... but, hey if its a good circuit then its understandable that there is going to be some profits in it for the orgs, I tried to keep the org anonymous because I like the people who run it, but, for the sake of argument I had to break it down for you.

Memberships = $12,000
17 Tournaments x $150 = $2,550 Insurance Fees
17 Tournaments x $150 = $2,550 Late fees

That's $17,100... and we haven't started calculating Sponsors as you mentioned and I estimated low on all accounts! However, it's all good because I understand orgs need to make some money for all the hardwork they put into it.

Banks are paying a fair amount of money for short-term deposits and it's not being figured into the payback at all. Throw in the actual costs to fish these five events and the payback is poor below the top two. If you add in the dollars that the communities might be willing to cough up to hold these events in their backyards the payback looks even weaker.

A fair amount of money? The average rate is about 3% for a year. $250,000 x 3% for a full year is $7500. No factor in that 20% of that is going to go away about once a month and all of it will be gone is 6 months... So total interest will be under $2000 max.

Some things you didn't factor into your equation. #1 Advertising for this thing, (you don't give us those banners for free do you? In fact, I am willing to bet Angler's Choice/AKA Mendez pays more for advertising than any other advertiser on your site.. but, thats another conversation) Also, we still have to pay Staff to run this thing smoothly. Paying travel expenses for the staff, insurance, Permit Fees, Lake fees, etc.. etc..

If you think this is going to be a big money maker you are gravely mistaken. Fact is, I talked to Mendez and we decided it would be worth doing for a small profit because we wanted to give the angler's what they want... and it'd be fun to cover in the magazine and showcase some of our local sticks!

$23,800 payback and you're taking in $50,000 plus interest plus sponsorships.

Please find us some sponsors that will pay to have these events! I'd sure like to know who they are. Basscat, Legend, Mercury, Motorguide and a few others sponsor angler's choice.... however, it's mostly for the advertising in the magazine. No magazine, no sponsors... This thing probably won't generate $2000 in sponsors, if that!

I'm not sure how much is being paid for boats but if you run the numbers the dollars being held back don't equate to a great deal.

They add up exactly as I posted them.. No hiding anything.. $250,000 in... and with the price of the boats $265,500 out. I am not sure what you want... but, I'll gladly fish your trail if you can beat that.. with or without boats!

$37,000 plus three boats VALUED at $36,500 but we all know they aren't costing anywhere near that amount. And more importantly won't sell for anywhere near that much to the guys that win them.

They absolutely don't cost that. I mentioned that in an earlier post. I put it plain and simple, that is where we are going to make some money running this thing. I don't hesitate to lay it out exactly like it is. I am a straight shooter... I'll tell you exactly what you want to know... the 100% truth. Fact is, there isn't a better payback anywhere... no tournament trail pays back 100% period. Factor in, insurance fees, Late Fees, Lake fees.. you name it.. We will have none of those... Pay your entry fee... no options to hide money behind.. nothing... Just pure X amount in X amount out... No hidden anything. That is why I want no options!

It's a 47% payback per tournament and you have to win a tournament to make any money at all. You'd have to get two second place finishes to make a few bucks. Everybody else is loser after expenses.

It's not about making money in a single event.. This is about finding the best all around anglers.... If we want big paybacks per event.. then we can just have some more pro-ams.. or a Lake Mead Classic... which is our big event. That works great for one event, big payback type of thing.. This is about finding the best all around anglers which is why the paybacks are $2000 minimum for all the qualifiers for the TOC. Like I said, if you want to hit the jackpot in one tournament then I suggest you find another event.

I mean you're talking about taking a quarter of a million bucks, accruing interest for months on end and doling out in small amounts every couple few months.

Sure that's $250,000 for the first 30 days... $210 for the next 30 days. $180 for the next 30 days and so on... all gone within 6 months.. so in reality it'll be 3% at best an average of 125,000 for 6 months.. which is under $2000 in interest. I'll do the math for you if you want.

I like the idea on its surface but if you dig down a bit deeper, it's not gonna fly unless the payback changes significantly.

No offense, but, truthfully, I wasn't banking on guys like you and I fishing it. Since I have been in fishing, I haven't really seen you in too many events.... As for myself, I am not good enough for this type of thing yet.. but, someday I hope! This isn't for the angler that wants to fish for fun... this is for the serious guys who want to fish on about as even a platform as possible and test their skills against the best.

sTony

PS - Plus you might have a problem filling out the field if pros do indeed sign up with other pros that would ordinarily being competing against each other in ProAm events.

I agree with you here... Who knows how many boats we can really get, however, I've got about 30-40 confirmations via email and/or phone and a few of my friends have heard of others who are "All in" if we make it happen. However, when it comes time to sign the checks who know how many there will really be. Could be we do get 100 boats and the circuit rocks... Could be we don't and everyone goes back to fishing whatever circuits they have been for the past X amount of years.

Just my .02[/quote]

Tobe · Post by **Tobe** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:10 pm

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:14 pm

I like your numbers Tobe..

But, unfortunately for us... we won't have $250,000 for a full year.. Maybe some of it for 6 months... The way I figure it is, we'll average $125,000 for 6 months.. and 6.25% interest.. wow, that is huge! I want to bank there. I just checked a few of my online sources and the best I could come up with for short term interest is 3%.. actully 2.something.... but, either way, the interest should be about $2000 maybe a little less!

As for the triple trout... I'd gladly pay $65 for one, if I could find one!

Tom

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:30 pm

Hey George,
All great ideas..

The cover could definitely be part of the deal!
I actually think AOY should get a boat as well.. you win AOY in this trail, you've done something.

As for the lakes, I have something very similar in mind... VERY SIMILAR!

As far as 30 boats to the TOC... We could do something like that

Let me see if I can break that down a bit...
I don't think it looks nearly as good.. but, I guess 30 teams or 30% of the teams will get something....

AOY - Boat 36,500
1 36,500
2 36,500
3 2,400
4 1,600
5 1,600
6 1,600
7 1,600
8 1,600
9 1,600
10 1,600
11 1,400
12 1,400
13 1,400
14 1,400
15 1,400
16 1,400
17 1,200
18 1,200
19 1,200
20 1,200
21 1,200
22 1,000
23 1,000
24 1,000
25 1,000
26 1,000
27 1,000
28 1,000
29 1,000
30 1,000

Or how boat with 25 boats qualifying for the TOC and a boat for AOY

AOY 36500 Boat and Cover of Bass West USA
1 36,500
2 36,500
3 5,000
4 3,000
5 2,000
6 2,000
7 1,800
8 1,600
9 1,600
10 1,600
11 1,400
12 1,400
13 1,400
14 1,400
15 1,400
16 1,400
17 1,200
18 1,200
19 1,200
20 1,200
21 1,200
22 1,000
23 1,000
24 1,000
25 1,000

Of course the whole circuit would be covered in the main pages of Bass West... a 2 page maybe even 4 page spread for each event! That's a lot of press for local anglers to help with their sponsors!

Is it getting better or worse?

Gary Dobyns · Post by **Gary Dobyns** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:31 pm

Lord knows I don't have to stick up for Tony when It comes to words, but you could have left the part, about him fishing out. In fact I spoke with him today and If you get your shi* together he in fact will be fishing and already has a partner. There are some things you have missed and I have sent you two private messages.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:33 pm

Hey Gary...

I fixed it.. after re-reading it, you are right, it wasn't at all my positive self... I re-worded it to sound more like what I meant by it!

As for the PM's sorry I haven't gotten back to you.. I just got to this site after a while away and thought it would be too late to call (after 9:30ish by the time I got to my PM's)

I will call you in the AM.. Will that work?

Hell, I wasn't slamming sTony.... I like him.. I was just saying he wasn't our particular target market on this one.. I don't think I am either! I'll do much better behind the computer for these.... or better yet, I'll be much better in Gator's Golf/Fishing event... since I am a much better golfer than fisherman!

Tom

Ken Mah · Post by **Ken Mah** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:29 am

$50,000 per event entry $23,800 paid out. $26,200 left over.

$26,200 x 5 = $131,000.00 not yet paid out.

The TOC payout is based on the retail value of 3 boats ($36,500.00) to equal the $146,500 total payout. In reality the boats may only cost any organization between $18,000 to $20,000 to purchase. Don't quote me, i do not know that for sure, but I know that it does not cost thm $36,500.

Lets take the higher of the two @$20,000 x 3 boats= $60,000
The retail claim is 36,500 x 3 boats= $109,500

Where is the diffrence of $109,500 - $60,000 = $49,500. We are basically paying for the boat that we are fishing for and then some. Not sure if this is better, or trying to rasie the pro/am numbers would be money better spent. I have no fact about the numbers I used, these are just projected based on my limitted knowledge of how organizations obtain boats.

sTony · Post by **sTony** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:22 am

That's funny Tom,

If I'm not a part of your particular market then I gotta believe your idea just came crashing down around you. Your gonna need anyone ready to step up to the plate to make your scheme work and I was one of them.

However I ran the numbers and you're full of it. Your break down on them is laughable and your just not being honest or your not playing with a full deck when it comes to banking. A 6 month CD is paying 5.45%. Heck passbook accounts can be had for 4.23% if you know where to look.

Oroville, Clear Lake, Angel's Camp, Las Vegas will all pay you something to run an event like this in their area and I'm sure other sponsorship can be garnered as well for a guy with as many connections as you.

Bottom line is your paying payback 47% per tournament and by the time you get to the TOC 80% of the field is eliminated and therefore gets little to no chance to recoup their money. On the other hand, the angler is paying out substanitally to compete.

Not sure why you went into the tirade about the other tournament organizations. Their entitled to make a buck also. And it was interesting how you kept AC out of this thread until you lost your cool when someone said, "Hey wait a second. I'm no math major but something ain't right or realistic about what this guy is spinning here." AC/BassWest/ACProShop is one of the biggest advertisers on this site and they have the most ad spots out there as well.

You're banking on a bunch guys letting their ego's run amuck rather then using common sense.

I got a question for you Tom, what would your payback look like if you were say getting the boats for even less then Ken figure you were getting them for? Heck you were at one time getting the motors for only $2500 to $3000. I know that for a fact. What if you were getting one of the boats at no cost and the other one or two at 50% actual cost which has nothing to do with estimated value, which for all anyone other then you know is part of your deal.

Oh by the way, you never mention what type of boat is involved either.

So now that you've tried to pimp slap me I've got to wonder whether or not I really should think about fishing your tournaments Tom. Which brings me to back to my original point. I suppose you were expecting to see teams comprised of who? I fish a regular team circuit with my partner Cooch. I also spend a whole lot of time trying to grow this sport in a number of different ways. I'd love to fish more however, being that I have a family to raise and support I have chosen to wait until the time is right to step in to a more competitive mode. If Andy and I don't fit in as part of your 'ideal team' then who do you expect will fish your events Tom? Where do all these Super Teams come from if the guys that do think about stepping in are told they don't 'fit the mold' of what you're looking for? That was a rather arrogant statement and I won't even start talking about your fising career buddy, I don't want to embarass you in the manner you've tried to do to me.

sTony

basswest · Post by **basswest** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:07 am

Wow, Talk about a whole lot of guessing. I do not want to be involved in this thread - and will not post again on it. But I will state something quite clearly. Tony, the days of boats costing organizations 5k are long gone, The days of Motors costing 3-4k are also long gone. If you have those connections, I need to be talking with you. Ken Mah is pretty close on the cost of a boat these days and that does not include what we do to receive that price. We give a way multiple pages in Bass West USA to satisfy sponsor obligations, which in turn cost us money to put in the Magazine, Just as these same companies would want to back Tom's proposed event. The entire cost needs to be looked at - not just selective small elements. Heck in every tournament put on it is std that only 20% of the field gets a check. I think Tom has a good idea here and he can run with it as far as he wants. It does need some tweaking here and there but the concept is what the anglers are looking for. If you have a better format or some positive input without a org losing its rump, I say bring it on. I have proven time and time again that I put my own personal money up each year. Man, the next thing I am gonna here is that I make money in the tournament business and that would be laughable. Taking this thread and trying to turn them into personal pissing contest is crazy. What is productive about that ? As a major guy in the bass fishing community, bring something positive to the table in discussion. If you just want to tear apart a potential trail - I suggest you do it with all trails and expose all the untold millions that are being siphoned off at each event. Like I said it's crazy and flat out unproductive.

Reluctantly
Mark Mendez

Phil · Post by **Phil** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:59 am

AS A STANDBYER AND WATCHING, READING, WAITING ?

(IS IT GONNA HAPPEN OR?)

IS IT A GO YET TOM ?

JIGS

Gary Dobyns · Post by **Gary Dobyns** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:34 am

just the same as you don't know what mine are, but there are local tournament organizations that are recieving NO-Charge boats and engines. Again, I don't know your deals, but to say the days of boats costing 5k and motors costing 3k to 4k are gone, is simply not true. Boat and motor companys spend a ton of money for advertising and sponsorships in the form of free product. Yes, here in the west also. They also do sell product at reduced rates to organizations. You must fall into the later catagory. I also think the numbers could be better, but I'm always for the fishermen.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:20 am

I don't have time to respond this whole thing right now... but, I'll say two things really quick and hit the rest later.

#1. Laughable - Redo the math.. because with any CD that I have ever read about, you have to leave the money in the account the entire amount of time... or pay huge penalties... So now call your bank and see what they'll do. Remember the checks don't even get deposited until December 1st.

#2 I wasn't trying to pimp slap anyone. I included myself in that statement... I was just saying that neither of us are a regular on the Stren, Won bass or even AC Pro-Am circuits... I am sure you are a fine fisherman, I have no idea... really never seen your name in a results page. I do know you fish National Bass West, but, I have never seen the standings of that circuit so I have no idea.

As for my carreer.. ask anyone, I'll be the first to say I suck... but, I've only been doing it 3 years.. prior to that I had a few other sports I spent my time participating in. If it'll make you feel better, feel free to say whatever you want about my fishing carreer... I guarantee its nothing worse than I have ever said about it personally! I don't have an ego to protect so have at it!!

I am not trying to sell crap... For all I care, we can leave things as is.. a lot less hassle for me, and guess what, I'll make the same amount of money either way. All I was trying to do was give the guys what they wanted.

I laid it out exactly the way it is... no hidden anything. You obviously don't know me very well.. but, we'll leave it at this. If you want to discuss any further, feel free to call me 909-559-1969. I am not going to do like many others and have a pissing contest in public...

But, I'll say one last thing... If this is such a great money maker, maybe we can make it a westernbass.com trail? Mendez was willing to take the risk and put this thing on... you seem to have alterior motives and want to shoot it down.... well, if its that great an idea... feel free to take it. In fact, anyone or any organization that would like it... can take it anytime! I'd much rather spend my time working on the magazine, fishing and spending time with my gf. I have 40 plus names to start you off and you can add my money to the pot as well (not that I plan to win, but, I am ALWAYS up for a challenge)!!

Tom

Cooch · Post by **Cooch** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:28 am

Man, I really wish this thread had not continued on in so many different directions from Tom's original post. That original post really got my attention, and I stayed away up until just now cause I was a little bit bored here at the office today. Maybe what I shoulda done, was go fishin this morning.

The more I read through all this, the less attractive I've become to it all. The original payback for my $500 entry was okay, not the best at $5000 to the winner, but at least it got my attention until I got out my calculator. Now I see that a few days later, the payout for the individual event(which is now 3 & 3 by region) is only $3K to the winner. Let's fergit about what is being put to the TOC, those are horrible numbers on a gambling investment and I would not play those odds as they are now. Certainly Tom, for a $500 entry fee, it IS smarter for me to continue fishing a single region in 100% BASS here on the Delta, I can make potentially $6k on 1/3 of the investment.

Now I too am offended by the coments made towards Tony. We ARE INDEED, the type of team you should be looking for. That was uncalled for.

I also believe ya to be totally wrong in regards to your statement about 100% Bass and Bob's payback. Make no mistake, 100% of all entry fees and options are paid back to his anglers at each tournament. It would be absurd to expect any org to pay back 100% of all fees taken in. Ya gotta make the coin some where, membership fees, late fees and sponsor dollars are areas of an orgs revenue source that I would never expect to see come to me as an angler in paybacks. Bob's figured out how to make that all work so as to give us the 100% payback. They do pay back 100% of the entry fees at each event, no other org can make that claim. And it is the one main reason I fish and support that trail and have done so since Bob started it.

I don't buy this whole make it to the TOC thing. That's where the payback is. Ya only qualify the top 20 out of 100 anglers. That's only 20% of the field, if'n ya don't have the attractive pay schedule along the way, how ya gonna expect to keep that other 80% interested in playing each individual event if the damn thing is so top heavy at the TOC? I am certainly not gonna give ya $2500 up front for the currently proposed widget. Damn, ya know what a $500 entry fee at 100 boats would git us in a 100% BASS event? Give us half of that, ya just might git my attention back.

The other thing is, the dollar value being put out on those boats. That is the biggest crock in our industry today. The number being used is so damn inflated it ain't funny. If any of us could sell them boats for the retail price, we'd be blessed. I'm here to tell you, 90% of us guys who have ever won a boat, here in California over the last 10 years, is lucky to clear 25K for that boat. So there's no way I can be convince about this TOC thing with these inflated values being put on these TOC prize boats.

This is just all too typical of what happens when we use our democratic process of allowing everyone to give us some input. The damn thing has gotten so deluted, I've lost interest from the original proposal. What started out as a "super team" concept, really has turned into another wanna be team circuit. I by no means am tryin ta shoot it down, but at least git it back to where it started, it was far more attractive before ya started tweeking downwards.

sTony · Post by **sTony** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 11:35 am

Yah know I started off by posting on a very positive note. I expressed my concern over someone holding on to a lot of cash all season long from the beginning of this thread. I still tried to be supportive and suggested lakes that might draw well for you in this scenario.

It wasn't me that turned it into a pissing match. I merely pointed out the finances that still seem to be escaping you Tom. And you still haven't gotten that point but others have.

All I did say was that the dollars, when looked at closely, don't make for a very tempting circuit. I'm still thinking the basic idea is a good one but the payback is what drives most teams to consider competing to doing it.

The scenarios that have come out since the original post only diluted the payback further.

I don't want or have any desire to take this idea away from you Tom. And maybe you didn't think about this the way I have come to in dealing with so many tournament anglers and their calculators. It was the red flag of doing something I've never done before or been asked to do before and that is paying for an entire season up front that made me wonder out loud what we'd be getting into here.

I don't have to justify to anyone how I've spent my time in this industry. I worked for many organizations, both for profit and non-profit, and I'll stand by my record as a contributor to the sport. It's rather well documented. I've fished around and have had the pleasure of winning events and well as having known the down side of finishing dead last. I'd fish more but I just can't commit the time just yet, but I do commit time to any org that asks for a helping hand and have done so for AC, ABA, Won Bass, 100% BASS, the Future Pro Tour, the Bass Federation, a variety of charitable and specialty events.

I didn't get personal with you at all in my responses Tom but you sure did and are still doing so with me. I don't compete in the series or pro/am events because I have a commitment to my family, of which I have four children that April and I are raising together. I was a father first. Things might have been different had I been a competitive angler first and brought the kids into my fishing world but it so happens that it happened the other way around and I owe them a heckuva lot more then being a part time dad off chasing the tournament dream. I refuse to miss the volleyball and baseball games, I won't miss the school plays and recitals. I can wait and hopefully will still be in that mindset when the kids are older and I'm ready to jump in with the big boys and fish competitively. In the mean time I fish a circuit here and there when my schedule allows. I won't be downgraded or chastised for that and maybe someday if you have a family you'll understand how wrong your personal remarks have been.

If my questioning you about the basic details like payback are consider a pissing match then please by all means get out of the kitchen because you obviously can't stand the heat.

sTony

rickyshabazz · Post by **rickyshabazz** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:25 pm

OK-Tom you just broke one of the biggest rules in running an organization (or expressing an idea out load), ask a lot of people and you will get a lot of responses (suggestions).

Tom is one of the nicest guys that I have ever met and he really loves this sport. I have only met Tony three or four times and he seemed equally genuine about the sport.

Letâ€™s just agree to disagree without anyone taking anything personal shots because you both have valid points/concerns.

Tom-with all the tournaments that are already out there I think you have to come up with an idea that is so far out of the box that it attracts people. Keep up the great work with the magazine because you are doing an excellent job. Unfortunately, this sport is dominated by complainers and personalities. I think that you run the risk of having a good product and not getting participation because of how â€œsomeâ€

Jim V. · Post by **Jim V.** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:01 pm

Well said Ricky.

Mitch · Post by **Mitch** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 3:36 pm

OK, you asked, you recieved, now it's time to "sh#! or get off the pot "!!!. Put it together, announce it, and see who and how many will put up or SHUT-UP. I, as do many, set my schedule as to what I'm going to fish by the first of Sept. so I can make plans and reservations. Let's see something REAL and stop all this B.S. It's YOUR circuit...............run it YOUR way. If somebody doesn't like it........THEY CAN GO SOMEWHERE ELSE !!!! I have a team partner and we're ready to send in the entries, ( we're not afraid of Doybins...unless he wears that DAMN pink thong !!), just waiting to see the SCHEDULE and hear the RULES. If it fits...............we're IN !!!

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:16 pm

Thanks for the input Cooch!

I appreciate that you didn't just start shooting it down and offered some alternatives to what we are working with here.

Sorry I offended you and Tony.. I really didn't mean to offend anyone.. nor say anyone wasn't the caliber of fisherman we are shooting for. What I was saying is we are looking for the type of angler that wants to fish events all over in a wide variety of lakes against the top anglers. Unfortunately, since I have been in the fishing industry I really haven't seen Tony's name in too many events... No offense to him, but you gotta call a spade a spade. Chances are Tony is a better angler that I am.. no worries, I don't sweat it, I have no ego... As for you, I didn't even know you were his partner, so I by no means did I even factor you into that post. However, how many events have you fished away from the Delta in the past couple years.... Not that you can't and probably would even win on many of the lakes with events.. I am just going by the recent past and seeing who is fishing what and where. By all means I think you and Tony could get together and probably do really well in this thing... but, again the target market is the guy who is looking for a VARIETY of lakes... and a tournament trail that pits him/her against the best teams/anglers California has to offer. If you can honestly tell me, you and/or Tony have fished a variety of lakes and a variety of trails to fish against the best over the course of the last 2 years... then I stand corrected and eat my words publicly, privately, on the web or in person. I have no problems admitting when I am wrong. Again, this isn't and has never been about Tony's fishing ability... nor yours. Truthfully, you guys could be the KVD and Ike of California.. or you could be horrible, I have no idea because I have never fished with you or fished an event that either of you have fished. It's simply a pattern of the types of events and locations you fish based on something I deducted by seeing the events and the locations of the events he has fished. So again my apologies if I offended you. I have already left him a voice message to discuss my intentions of the post. Anyone who knows me will tell you I am a fair, honest and overall nice guy most of the time. Don't get me wrong, I can be the biggest prick on the planet but, I don't go out looking to be one!

Couple things to mention though:

1. Sure the boats are 36,500 in our payback scenario. Really they cost us less than that. Not what Gary might be able to negotiate, but, not a bad deal either.... we all know that and I even made the post even stating that.. I've never tried to hide that. That is exactly where the organization is going to profit from these events.

2. No decisions or changes have been made to the original proposal. All I have been doing is trying to get opinions from as many guys who are willing to constructively pitch in on all the different possibilities. Truth is, no decision will be made until I get a team of about 10-15 angler's together in a room... and work this thing out.. All the details including paybacks etc... Back to that constructive part... Tony shot down everything, just for fun? not sure... but, he didn't offer any alternatives or possibilities to help in any way, shape or form. Sure you had criticisms too.. great.. I want to hear that.. but, you offered something up... "Take it back to the way the original post was".... that is offering an alternative. I could have respected Tony's post quite a bit more had he said, why don't we figure out how much interest is going to be made from the bank and pay that back for the 4 big fish at the TOC.. or something. Not sure if he didn't think of that, or if he has an alterior motive but, there wasn't anything constructive of helpful in his post what-so-ever! Just a slam to what everyone is trying to get done.. a tournament trail that people want. Remember, I didn't dream this up out of the blue... it was mentioned by several guys that this would be a dream trail.. so I am trying to make that happen, that's it. Simply trying to give the people what they want.

3. As for the paybacks, those were some numbers I crunched quickly on my computer just to start the ball rolling. By no means are they the final paybacks.. All that will be announced when we announce the actual circuit and its schedule. However, I doubt the paybacks are going to jump drastically.... no organization is in business to do work for free! I thought giving away 3 boats and getting everyone some cash at the TOC would be great since that will include added travel, a lot of hard work all year and reward the best overall anglers, not the best anglers on a particular body of water. For me, I'd rather see all the paybacks be made on a Points standing basis... I thought the whole point of this thing was to find the best anglers on all bodies of water... Not just the best on each particular body of water. We've already got 100 events that will give us some answers to that. This was supposed to be different!

4. Like I said before, anyone or any organization who wants to run this thing, and will make the paybacks at least what we have them posted as with the same entry fees can gladly take it over from us. I will provide you with all the names (pushing 50 now) that claim they are "all in"!

5. As for you making more money on less investment... I am sure you can. Who wouldn't? Cody Meyer can certainly make a lot more money staying home and fishing Oroville every week than he will fishing all over California on Matt Newman's Water, Tim Klinger's water... or whowever's home lake. However, I think a guy like Cody is up for the challenge, welcomes the challenge and wants to see where he ranks amongst the best on all bodies of water. That may not be what you want... which is all fine and dandy, that's your decision to make. However, it is statements like that is exactly what leads me to say there are certainly guys that this trail is not for! Which is fine, we don't need 5000 anglers... only 100 teams. There are probably 2000 teams in California, we only need 100 of them that want to test their abilities on a VARIETY of waterways. Again, this isn't aimed at you... it's aimed at the guy who thinks... I can make more fishing in my zip code than I can by travelling all over the state! I am sure some guys can do that. I probably could catch a check every now and then on Clear Lake, but, catching one on Havasu would be tough for me... or Shasta or whatever.. After all, I live on Clear Lake... and when I am not typing books on this freaking site I actually do get to go fishing every now and then!

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:38 pm

Hey Ricky - thanks for the kind words... I don't think this is a personal thing. I by no means mean to get on Tony... I thought we had a good working relationship... Maybe what I said came across wrong.. but, I have broken down why I said what I said in other posts.. plus, me and Tony played some phone tag today. We'll get it worked out.

I just really think a post even if negative ought to put something on the table as an alternative... Not just there to shoot something down. After all this wasn't even my idea... It was a great idea dreamed up by several people on this site. I am just trying to make it a reality!

As for losing peoples respect.... those who know me, know that I do this because I love to fish... I love dealing with fisherman... I love trying to help guys attain their dream... I have no ego and no alterior motive.... I do what I can to do that right thing.. ALL THE TIME! My friends, family and even people I barely know can see that in my actions, my words and my work. I will continue to do exactly that forever!

Thanks again.. and IMO it is time to lose the wannabepro name... You are making plenty of money fishing to get make a step up in nicknames! ha ha ha

Tom

Colebass · Post by **Colebass** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:45 pm

I'm out!

Rule #1- Gary "Rainbow" Dobyns can not wear his pink thong! I don't care if it's in his Evinrude contract to do so!

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 11:41 pm

Hey Mitch,

I am going to put together a committee of anglers very soon to see what we can brainstorm into a circuit. I am already on the dates and permits stuff. Plus I am going to contact the local cities, chamber of commerce's etc.. and see what they are willing to do to help the paybacks out.

It's going to take longer than September 1st... but, I don't exept it will take longer than mid-september sometime to get everyone together... Talk about the options and set everything in stone. I don't want to announce anything until I have pretty solid numbers across the board for paybacks and entry fees. Worst case scenario I will announce minimum paybacks for whatever number of boats we all decide on.... and then if we get added money from cities etc... we can add to the paybacks. I like to lay everything on the table so everyone knows exactly what's going to happen.

This has only been on the table for less than a week... It does take some time to put the whole plan together.. Please bear with us!

Thanks,
Tom

Cooch · Post by **Cooch** » Wed Aug 23, 2006 3:06 am

Over the past 3 years, I have not fished many events since BASS left. There were a number of factors that went into that decission by me to do so. I'm a lot more focused and have better direction now in what I want and plan for my future in fishing. I said then, I would sit back and wait to see how this all falls out. At this point, my guiding has been the greatest pleasure in fishing that I have, or could have ever asked for. Working with new people, making friends and fishing for fun is just an awesome thing and blessing for me.

But I do like to compete. I have stated over the years my dislike for shared weights in Pro-ams. I have also stated many times my dislikes for regionalized team circuits. I have also stated my pleasure with the great payback at each event with 100% BASS. I have only missed one team season with Korny since his inception. Unfortunately, it has been here on the River that was my region of choice. But, what most don't know, Pat Dilling and I qualified for maybe 3 out of 4 seasons through the 100% Travelers, to his TOC. Yes, I live here on the Delta, but I made it a point to git my *** out of here and go fish against the best from Washington to New Mexico. And I like to think I've faired faily well doing so. Only 75% of my guiding is done here on the Delta, I go to all the lakes. I'm not sure I know of a licensed guide besides myself that does this, most are regionalized or limited to serving a few lakes. My point here is, I am interested in this because it's going to move around and not be held on one or two bodies of water. It is precisely what I've been waiting for. As well as the payback potential can be great too.

Now as fer Tony, well I've had ta keep him under wraps over the years. He's actually a much better angler than most might realize. And the few times he and I have fished together in team events, we've done exceptionally well. We spanked a bunch of Folsom folks one December with a record setting bag of 29+ pounds on day in 2001. That team record stood until last year. And we just came off our first maiden, full season together in National Bass West, where we finished a modest 6th in the points race. And although it didn't have the fields that Charlie and I fished in the 100% this season, we had some very strong, river rat teams in that circuit the whole way. Then he somehow slipped through and got in the boat with Theil and won the Dan Fisher memorial. The man can fish, and he fits as a great partner for me.

And even though he may sound like he's a big old bag of negativity sometimes, he makes a whole bunch of sense if'n ya just sit down and listen to what he says and don't take it personally. Bottom line is, if someone comes out with a circuit like this, he and I are gonna fish it. And we're gonna invite and encourge the Dobyns/Dobyns team ta come join us. Hell, we'll buy em each a matching set of g-strings ta show off and wear. By golly we'll even spend all Tony's easy money on wrappin' BDO's boat the night before in a few dozen of them things! HAR! Course, we is gonna borrow Dean's BAssCat so as we'll be able to out run em when he tries ta chase down and drown our skinny asses!

Let's Get-R-Done, like I said before, We're all in.

TheFLY · Post by **TheFLY** » Wed Aug 23, 2006 7:03 pm

Just with respect to the complaint that these particular tournaments would have a low payback per event and most of the money would not be doled out until the TOC ... to me, that is a plus.

We do have some great one or two-day events that pay back well based on one's performance on one body of water.

What this circuit does, and one thing that makes it unique is it pays back really well to the top 20% of the overall circuit. Since the point of this series of tournaments is to find California's best team and the most well rounded anglers who can catch bass from Shasta to the Delta to the cups of Gin in SoCal, then the majority of the money should be held back for those folks who make it to the TOC. Those are the ones who earned it.

And if more is held back for that TOC then, obviously, each event individually will pay back less.

Most of our big tournaments pay back 20% of the field for one event. This event pays back very well to 20% of the field, but it does so based on an entire season. That way a team does not have to worry that they are so severly handicapped when they go and fish one event on a body of water where they don't have nearly as much experience.

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:20 pm

Frankly, I would prefer the TOC not be the focal point for year end money for this type of circuit...the point I thought was to see who the best anglers were for the state fished in....so...

I would rather see the year end money go to year-end standings. That keeps the circuit competitive through all events, right down to the wire. Give the boats to First and Second...if you want a TOC as a bonus make it for one boat and use option money at that event...but reward the year-end standings with boats and cash for the top 5 places or so.

That would get me excited, and seems to be the purpose of this particular circuit.

Now bring one up here or else I may have to move back to California!

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:33 pm

TheFly - You get it!

That is exactly my intent with these paybacks. However, I could get some site based sponsors to add to the local paybacks once the sites for the year are selecte.. For instance - cities, chamber's of commerce etc.. (Which, after a conversation with sTony, is what he was trying to get me to understand) There may be other sponsors who can help the payback... but, since most of those sponsors can't be obtained until the schedule and rules are set... I am going to have a minimum payback... and keep people posted as we obtain sponsors to up the pot... Hopefully, that will be doable - but, I can't garauntee anything like that.

Thanks for the note and clearing that up for the people who aren't seeing it that way.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:45 pm

Good Suggestion Marc... I think you are right! Even though the top 20 have to qualify.. its still a one lake event, which means that someone is going to have a "home field" advantage. Your suggestion makes sense to me!

I think I mentioned it before... I think it would be awesome to have all the money get paid back based on the Year end Standings... Maybe give the winners at a particular event a bonus... and then pay back through 35th or 40th or something in the year end standings.. Problem is, no one would be getting any money for at least the 6 or 7 months it takes to run 5 events.. So I am not even going to offer that!

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 7:15 am

Tom,

I have always viewed TOC's as a reward for loyal customer support throughout a season, and tournament organizers view them as a way to keep anglers participating in order for teams to qualify, and sponsors love 'em because it is another marketing opportunity. All of this is fits the format of the other circuits, but has no relevance for this format (except an additional marketing venue for sponsors).

As you realize, the point of this new format is to provide anglers with a circuit that showcases the top anglers who can find fish in new locations, get them in the livewell using a variety of techniques, and highlight "versatility."

TOC's don't fit this format unless it were possible to compete on a mystery lake that noone has ever fished...ain't going to happen!

We can wait for our cash & prize reward until the end of the season because we are all in for the whole circuit, not just an event or two.

Still hold a TOC at the end, but focus it on being a reward for the sponsors and to have a get-together for awarding year-end prize money. You could even make this a summer 6-hour tourney so you have time for festivities (barbecue!!) and promotion, since this tourney has nothing to do with the point of the circuit.

Why distract attention away from the year-end standings by giving our entry fees to someone who lucks out by getting the TOC on their favorite lake? That AOY and the runners-up deserve the attention in this circuit.

Awarding year-end money will be a great incentive to getting anglers excited and ready to sign-up for the next season!

My $0.02.

TheFLY · Post by **TheFLY** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 7:34 am

In total accord with Marc's comments.

I now agree, end of year standings should be favored moreso that the TOC.

My point was only that single event payback should be low to hold money back for those who do well over the whole season.

I think Marc's points as well as Tom's original ideas accomplish that goal by rewarding the top 20% in either circumstance.

I still do like 4 events in the N and 4 in the South ... but it seems that most guys don't.

Dewayne · Post by **Dewayne** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:46 am

Not that I am a team tournament angler, but the EOY payback based on points would be a good concept. Lets say there are 8 tournaments with 4 in Northern CA and 4 in Southern CA Area. Your best 6 tournaments count for points. That way you have to travel a little at least. You pay an entry fee for the circuit and not by tournament. The entry entitles you to fish 6 tournaments. If you want to fish more you can pay additional to get into more tournaments if you choose.

The key is to come up with a product that is different from the rest of the field of Team events and provides the solid payback that is essential when convincing people they are fishing to make money.

BassTramp · Post by **BassTramp** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:45 am

Tom,

1. Pick as many different Western or California Lakes as makes tournament business sense.
2. I am concerned about tying up my capitol not knowing if the circuit will meet its 100 team goal. I would hope you would allow deposits before Dec 1 and in the event the goal falls short, give the anglers the chance to fish an adjusted pay back that would have to makes sense and is still a win win for AC and the anglers.

Anglers Choiceâ€™s Staff and Mark have always ran good tournaments I know Mark is not in the â€œFishing Businessâ€

Hitman · Post by **Hitman** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:17 am

Ken, I'm sure that's were the profit margin comes into play. Overall I like to idea that is being proposed.

Hitman

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:18 am

Thanks BassTramp - I am having a meeting with 6 maybe a 7th southern angler from different "clicks" of the south next week.. Then I want to come back and meet with 6 - 10 anglers from different clicks with different backgrounds from up here and the motherlode area... and brainstorm this thing out with all of them.. They would then become my action committe and hopefully big proponents of this thing.

I wish I could lay it out the way its going to be with the lakes, payback scenario and the rest... but, honestly until I get the feedback from the committee I really can't do that. I think I am going to start with a printout of ALL of these posts and make sure we cover all the great ideas presented by everyone here and come up with what should be an awesome tournament trail that will find the most rounded anglers in the state! That's the idea... and I will do what I can to keep it that way.

My initial suggestion will be 5 lakes
Mead - Havasu
Casitas-Castaic-Cachum
Don Pedro - New Melones
Clear Lake - Delta
Oroville - Shasta

All swapping every year...

But who knows where the committees are going to run with this.. Maybe back to split regions. Maybe a TOC or Maybe just payback the top 20 for AOY points. What kind of points to give back.. Bell curve (1 for first 3 for 2nd,3rd,4th 5 for top 10, 10 for top 20, 15, for top 30, 25 for top 50 and so on... ) or straight up (1 point for first 2 for second and so on down to 100 point for 100th.) In both scenarios, lowest points wins... or a completely new scenario.

I will put the whole thing together, build a quick website with all the rules, information, sign up stuff... etc..

As for the payments. Like I was thinking before - Start receiving checks and hold them (not cash them) until we get 100 checks. At 100 checks we would stop accepting them.. The week of the first event, we will cash the checks... Hopefully all events will be run within 5 or 6 months... Scheduled completely around other events FLW-STREN-WON-AC and specialty events. Unfortunately, it is not possible to schedule around all the team circuits or I would do that as well.

I'd really like a for everyone to start sending me dates with tournaments such as the Snagproof event, the Northlake Ford, etc.. etc... so I can try and schedule around those. I will do the research as best I can to find those.. but, if you know of any thing like those post the date... that would be a big help to me!

Thanks,
Tom

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