Did Don Rucks go over to FLW Outdoors?

Hardshell · Post by **Hardshell** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:56 pm

Where do the people that make the decisions for national tournaments organizations come from? They sure as hell don't understand bass fisherman or for that matter how to keep assets they have and cultivate new endevors. We've seen right here on the west coast in the last 5-7 years the demise of West Coast Bass Pro-Ams, 100% Bass Pro-Ams , Westernbass Pro-Ams and Western Outdoor News Pro-Ams. Then, the purging of most of the west coast and the Federation by BASS. Now we witness this foolish offer of contingency awards by what most of us thought would be our savior, FLW Outdoors. With a series(Stern) that drew nearly full fields at every tournament here on the weat coast last year why would you make the changes that they have and try to sell these changes as "Good for Anglers"? I swear to Christ Irwin Jacobs hired Don Ruck out of the unemployment line and turn the dumb bassturd loose out here again! After all they sold us on the idea that Ranger Boats durable and held their valve la long time now they're the one that are discriminating against a 2 year old boat!!!!!!

Fools!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hardshell-Jailer

rickyshabazz · Post by **rickyshabazz** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 2:22 pm

Jailer,
While I feel your pain I am not sure that I agree with you. Do not forget that IJ is in business to sale boats and these tournaments are a means to push his product.

Their payout, even without the boat, remains the best in the business. Not winning the boat only affects one person (and the extra money for 2-3) and it is so hard to win that personally I prefer to look at the payouts from a holistic approach. What other organization pays down to 60 places? These guys are paying back 1 and 3.

My suggest is that if enough people e-mail FLW they may hear your voice and reshape their program. Otherwise, they are still the best show in time.

sTony · Post by **sTony** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 3:58 pm

I don't mean to always play the devil's advocate but sometimes I find myself stuck in the role. Look to last season's Stren Series final standings and something jumped out at me. While Jimmy did well, winning over $50,000 in the series, the next closest guy to him won less then $15,000. I'm sure this doesn't cover the boats that were won but as Ricky stated, that only effects the top placing angler. The rest are fishing for money.

So let's do the math, Jimmy won the boat twice and an additional $50k, Mark Meddock won a boat and $14K and Jr. won the Havasu boat and $11k. There were ten other guys that came away with something over $10k. The rest of the field, over 180 guys, made less then 10k if they made anything at all.

Now start playing with the numbers a bit. To be a boater in this event you're now obligating yourself to have a boat that is no older then four years if I read the info correctly. This season's cutoff model year is 2004 so 2004, 2005, 2006 and 2007 model years qualify for the bigger better payout. Average cost of the bigger Ranger models is roughly 45K. Divide that by four and you've got a tad over 11k per year on the boat as an expense. Add in the cost to travel, lodging, boat maintenance, fishing equipment and maintenance and the occasional, ooops.. I lost my lower unit or what have you and the expenses go up pretty significantly. How much does the average angler prefish for these tournaments? How many times do you hit the lake before the offical pre-fish starts?

Obviously much of the tournament bass fishing game is done for vanity alone. The National Guard Series will pop up the dollars significantly but then again the entry fee is also a lot heavier. How many guys expect to make a living doing the tournament bass fishing thing and stay on the West coast to do it? I would think the number is less then ten even with the bigger paybacks of the FLW Series.

So, what you really have to evaluate is what is the cost to play versus the return and cut it with the expectation of what you hope to achieve. For many the draw is the camaraderie and the chance to compete. For some it might be the chance to do well and gravitate to the big tour and the even bigger dollars that are out East.

Clearly the Stren is built to be a stepping stone and a field eliminator. Some guys will wash out at this level and others will advance to the next and some others will step up to the big show that is, in this case, the FLW Tour.

Keep in the back of your mind that the entry fee to the World Series of Poker is $10k and the payback for the win is several million dollars. When comparing the two the better play is likely the poker option as, with a whole lot of luck, you actually stand a chance to win that coming in to it being an annonymous player. It doesn't happen often in the world of tournament bass fishing. Then again, there is an exception to everything, otherwise we wouldn't have seen John Billhiemer Jr. win at Havasu.

Jsut my jumbled two cents. I hope they fill the fields in all the tournaments in 2007 and everyone has a blast fishing them!

sTony

Colebass · Post by **Colebass** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 4:58 pm

Tony,

I like your comparision, since I play poker live at least once a week and online 2-3 times per week. The entry vs payout is huge! You can play big games or small. And if you want, you can play satilites to get to the big events. I think there is something to learn from these satilites. We could do this with fishing tournaments as well.

The fishing entry vs payout is average at best, except for the winner. If we want people to be able to make a living at this sport, we should pay less to the winner. I know this sounds wierd or different, but it's sad to see guys dropping out of the sport. Look at the Elite anglers that drop out in the middle of the season. Yes the winner should get the most.

I don't won a Ranger, so it's not an issue for me. But I think the biggest thing that stands out to me is, the entry fee is going up again! Why change anything from last year? It was successful and folks were already talking about fishing stren again. Now, they've added drama with the new boat deal and more entry fee's. WHY?

I think Gary Dobyns says it the most and loudest! Ask the angler's what they want? Put a council together! This seems so simple, why don't more folks do it?

Just my .02

rickyshabazz · Post by **rickyshabazz** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 5:05 pm

I agree completely with you. This has never been a poor mans game and the bigger the stakes and bigger the rewards.

A person that will not fish because of the changes in payouts is a person that is finding an excuse or an out in place of the real reason which is very often financial.

Everything in life involves risks. There are those of us who are driven by the competition and we will continue to use these higher level tournaments as our venue to test our skills against the best that the West has to offer. You only get better at something when you surround yourself with those that are the best at their skill.

The same it true for poker. You can continue to play against your buddies or you can go to Vegas and compete against the best. Either way, it is the competition that drives many of us to invest the time and energy to chase these little green fish. A check is merely a bonus.

Hell, I am sitting in a room in Chicago mad as heck because I didnâ€™t get to fish the US Open for the first time in five years. Darn job is starting to get in the way!!!!

tony thomasy · Post by **tony thomasy** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 3:51 pm

I read over the schedule and payout for the 2007 season today and I am a little confused/concerned myself about the contingency payout. A pro ponies up $825 to win $25,000 plus a $45,000 ranger package if he is the owner of a ranger. I own a champion so does this mean I only receive the 25k for winning? If this is the case it will eliminate my entry from the tournament. I put a call into flw today for some clarification but if anyone out there has the correct info please let me know. Thanks, Tony Thomasy

rickyshabazz · Post by **rickyshabazz** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 4:22 pm

howevr, I would suggest looking at the bigger picture, which is that 60 guys receive a check. You can fish another circuit where only 15-20 people receive a check.

While I do not agree with the change, they still have the best payback of 1/3 entries.

Mark Hiser · Post by **Mark Hiser** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 4:28 pm

Yes, to win the Ranger contingency prize, you must be the original owner of a ranger boat, that was manufactured no earlier than 2004. Thats on the Pro side.

On the Am side you must be the registered owner of a Ranger boat to win the contingency prize.

Otherwise on both sides you will just win the cash

Pretty sure I have this straight, but you probably should still talk with FLW just to make sure. I would hate to be givin out mis-information to anyone. Actually, all they did was change the cash for the boat, only Ranger owners that met the criteria were able to win both last year. Oh yea, it wasn't a problem for me.

Mark Hiser

mark poulson · Post by **mark poulson** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 4:33 pm

If Irwin Jacobs really wanted to spotlight Rangers, he would have an "OG" category for Ranger boats over the four year mark. What better advertisement for Ranger than someone winning out of an older boat that still kicks a$$?
The greying of America applies to anglers, too. The demographics say most of the high dollar boats are bought by older anglers. Why not have FLW celebrate older anglers, and older boats? That would surely set them apart from BASS, and would engender loyalty from the core group of consumers they need to appeal to.

sTony · Post by **sTony** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 4:38 pm

Mark's got it right except on the am side you have to be the registered owner of a Ranger boat model year 2000 or newer.

One thing I'd like to point out is that this is an FLW Series, and the FLW stand for Forrest L Wood, founder of Rangers Boats. So yeah, if you're fishing from anything other then a Ranger you're not fishing for a boat but you're still fishing for a better then normal payback based on West coast standards.

I figure if enough Champion and Stratos guys give FLW a call maybe some consideration will eventually come out of it for the other Genmar owned boat companies. It'd be cool to see incentives in place for all the genmar boats to be sure and I thnk it'd blow the top off the entries for such events. But again, that's just me thinking out loud and lord knows I have no direct connections to the folks at FLW Outdoors.

sTony

Lance · Post by **Lance** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 4:48 pm

Correct me if i'm wrong guys but wont this hurt the re-sale value of Ranger boats? I mean if a flood of used boats comes on the market every year and some people dont want to buy them because there to "old" The seller will have to drop the price just to unload it, I dont know but could this happen?

L

sTony · Post by **sTony** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 4:51 pm

Traditionally Ranger Boats have held their value better and longer then any other used boats on the market. Thankfully we have places like all the great dealerships and our classifieds to help folks sell their boats and even now there are lots of options for potential boat buyers. It's been a buyers market for some time and likely will be for some time come.

sTony

Lance · Post by **Lance** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 4:55 pm

Tony,

I've never bought a used boat but what pushes a market into a sellers market. For as long as I can remember its never been a sellers market. Isnt the current market for Rangers based off of the old rules for the age of Pro's boats. We havent seen how this new rule will affect the value of Rangers, I think.

L

allbelac · Post by **allbelac** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 5:17 pm

The market will not be affected by a circut and their rules. Even if of the anglers that fished Stren in 2006 as a pro sold their boat, it would only be a pimple in the bass boat market. No need to worry about the boat market, maybe just worry about the tourny market, and even then, their will always be tournament if someone wants to fish them.

Lance · Post by **Lance** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 5:28 pm

I see. I dont own a Ranger at this time but my next boat would be either a Ranger Z-20 or a Triton 20X. I know the Ranger is going to hold its value better but I wanted to concider all options.

Tony, did you get into a Ranger? if so wich model

sTony · Post by **sTony** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 6:41 am

I'm running a Ranger 205vs with a 225 Opti. And it's now the official WesternBass.Com wrapped boat, hahaha. I love the boat and plan to be in it for some time to come.

sTony

Rick G · Post by **Rick G** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 6:56 am

Let me give you a Genmar dealers perspective. Anglers Marine sells Ranger, Champion and now Stratos. Since the beginning of FLW, Rangers boat sales have tripled to about 5500 boats sold a year. That is almost double their closest competition. Irwin is always going to promote his biggest brand first. That is why Ranger owners get priority sign-ups, then Champion owners,Stratos next. Untill Stratos and Champion sell as many boats as Ranger, the bonus program will stay the same, Irwin has told me this in person. If there had not been mega-growth in Rangers sales you would not be seeing the huge payouts currently enjoyed in FLW. Next years FLW championship is for $1,000,000.00! He is also brought non-fishing sponcers into our little sport. Yes fishing is expensive, but so is golf, hangliding, or any other crazy sport. The bonus program in FlW is a great sales tool as a dealer, and if confidant you can win, you need to play by the rules. Believe it or not, after 26 years selling bassboats, most buyers do-NOT fish tournaments, just fish for fun. Don't worry about Rangers resale, they will always have the highest. One thing to remember is that in our sport the fish are ALWAYS in control. Yes Genmar is all about boat sales, what good business wouln't be, but NOBODY brings more to the table. Rick G.

tony thomasy · Post by **tony thomasy** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 9:47 am

O.K. So my next question would be----- If the winner of an flw event is not the owner of a ranger boat (2004 or newer) what happens? Does the contingency award go to the highest ranger finish? Tony T.

Mark Hiser · Post by **Mark Hiser** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 10:27 am

Well, not exactly, If your second or third, there is additional contingency money. Also there will be Ranger Cup money available.
Assuming they have the Ranger Cup. But if the winner is not an eligible entrant, the Boat contingency prize will not be awarded.

Hang on, I'll bet somebody will let us know if I'm on the right track or not.

Hey, who knows maybe Brunswick will come up with a backdoor Triton/ Mercury prize for the events, if the winner is eligible

Heck, I'll take anything I can get. Even the Snickers prize would work. Maybe nothing from Immodium though

Mark Hiser

Rick G · Post by **Rick G** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 11:12 am

Mark is correct, only the first place finisher gets the first place bonuses. Hopefully someday Mercury Outboards will be an associate sponcer of FLW, but for this years upcoming events there will at least be a Mercury service truck @ FLW including the Stren series. As a Mercury only dealer, if they were an engine sponser of FLW life would be much easier thats for sure. Maybe even Mr. Dobyns would come back! Rick G.

kb · Post by kb » Mon Sep 25, 2006 7:38 am

As a Mercury Pro Staff Member I for one would give up the bonus to have a well stocked support trailer at every event on the FLW series and Stren series. We will have a large investment to fish these events and having the security that we can get back on the water with any problem we may have is worth more to me than a $1500 bonus. I am glad that Mercury will have a trailer out here and now there is no reason to run any other brand outboard....even if you are like Gary D and afraid to go fast

kb

Keith Tripp · Post by **Keith Tripp** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 11:27 am

Hardshell, Tony is correct, the contingency money covers 4 model years, 04, 05, 06 & 07. Irwin has never indicated anything other than he does this to sell more Ranger Boats. That is why every sponsor pays the dollars to tournament organizations, to promote and sell their respective product.

Tony, great job of explaining the program.

Rick Grover, this is why you are the #1 Ranger Boat dealer, you understand how business works....Rick & Cindy Grover and the entire Anglers Marine staff is awesome!!!!!!

Colebass,
Boat & motor costs go up
Fuel costs go up (until recently)
salaries go up
motel rates go up
guess what, entry fees have to go up....
not saying I like it, but it is just a matter of the fact, what do they say in business, if you are not moving forward you are falling behind.

Kb, no comment, I just hope you can run faster than Dobyns!!!!

Ricky, thanks as always for your support.

I hope everyone looks really hard at this, because I truly think FLW and Ranger Boats is trying real hard to bring two top notch tournament series to the West, which is something fisherman have long been asking for. There is a big cost to doing this and Irwin has worked very hard to get quality sponsors to help make this happen. Anyone who has fished a Stren event and has been so lucky to be part of what Chris Jones and the entire Stren Staff has brought to the west should understand the value in all of this.

Keith Tripp
Ranger Boats
Regional Sales Manager

Hardshell · Post by **Hardshell** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 12:01 pm

Keith:

I fully understand the reasoning behind the decision to eliminate us older Ranger owners, I just question it's wisdom. You know the history of the rise of this series here on the west coast as we all know and apperciate your presents here. I happened to be at a small regional Pro-Am this past weekend and talked with several of the guys that don't drive 2004 or later model Rangers but fished the Stren Series last year. The consences was that the Stren series can go pound sand after they were told of, and understood, the proposed contingency awards. I'm afraid that for me and a whole bunch of others that were loyal supporters of FLW Outdoors last years participation in Stren, was exactly what it was, our last season. I for one will remember the arrogance that Ranger has displayed in the elimination of a part of it's own family the next time I belly out to the boat buying counter with $50,000+.

Thanks for your comments.
Hardshell-Jailer
aka. Steve Greene

sTony · Post by **sTony** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 12:42 pm

Steve,

It's not like they're not allowing older model boats in the events, you're just basically fishing for what all the other boats are fishing for if you don't have the newer model boats. I'm thinking that a lot of pros are turning over boats quicker then guys like you and I are doing and that is where the emphasis has been placed. There are a lot of guys turning over boats every year or every couple years. That has meaning and additonal value to the folks at Ranger Boats beyond guys like you and I who are getting the most of our boats over longer periods of time. I have to as I can't afford to buy a new boat all the time and raise the family as well. Even if I had a boat deal from Ranger it likely wouldn't make it affordable enough for me to play on that level. As it is I have a great boat that likely won't see the new tournaments for some time to come because the time away from the kids and business simply isn't there yet for me. I'm quietly hoping that these types of events will still be here when I can afford to get out on the water a lot more, further develop my skillset and know that the kids are still okay back at home while I'm away. I might even try to get into the Stren Series this coming season if I can get the right timing on the events and know I'll be able to afford the whole enchilada. Even so my 'new' boat is only new to me and still is older then 2004.

I don't hold anything against Ranger or FLW for building what'll be the best paying events we have out here. Yeah, the newer Ranger owners get additional consideration but to me that's only seems fair as they're laying out the additional bucks and I can't blame Ranger because I can't afford that for myself. If I had the extra $50k to lay out on a boat I would but until then I'll consider fishing the events knowing that I'll be in there under the same terms as guys fishing from Champions, Stratos', Basscats, Vipers, Nitros, Skeeters, Legends, Gamblers and any other boat brand. It's still a better built set of stepping stones then anything else we have to compete in out West.

That's the way I chose to look at this stuff and I may be in the minority but I think the incentives are built into this system to consider either buying a new or newer boat OR just go fish 'em with what you got and if you do well take the payback minus the incentives.

To me it's all good.

sTony

billythekidd44 · Post by **billythekidd44** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 1:05 pm

The thing that bugs me the most and have a hard time justifying fishing these circuits(stren,flw) is that we all have to pay the same entry fee no matter what boat we own or if we own one at all.If I win I get $5000.00,but if a ranger owner wins they get a boat?This just erks me and this is why I`ll never fish these circuits .Say what you will about BASS but at least you dont have to own a certain boat to get the first place prize you deserve for winning.

billythekidd44 · Post by **billythekidd44** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 1:43 pm

oops double posted

Hardshell · Post by **Hardshell** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 1:47 pm

Tony;

It's not the idea that they are rewarding newer Ranger owners that bugs me, it's the extent! Hell, last year we were fishing for a boat and $10,000 no matter what you drove and the quailified Ranger owners got an extra $10,000 all for $750. This year if you aren't in the right boat all you get if you win is $25,000 for $825, and don't give me that BS about only one guy wins so why sweat it. Every time I hook up Ol' Greene and head out that drive way I fully expect to win and when the day comes that isn't the case I'll quit! I CAN afford a new boat, I CAN afford the $825 entry fee, I CAN afford the time off it takes to be competitive and I CAN afford the travel expense. What I can't endure is the stabbing feeling I get in my back every time I think about this BS, and the arrogance of those that are asking, yes asking, for my support!

Hardshell-Jailer
aka Steve Greene

Keith Tripp · Post by **Keith Tripp** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 2:21 pm

Billy the Kid, how can it bug you for us to pay the people that help make our company successful???? Why should we give contingency money/boat to a guy that buys another brand of boat. Why doesn't that boat company give them a new boat if they win??? Who pays for Ranger Boats to have a service trailer to take care of our customers, Ranger does....I think we try to go above and beyond for the people who have helped make us the #1 bass boat company in the US and I personally thank each one of you who have purchased a Ranger Boat.

The reason limitations were put on this was for the people that were out looking for 70 model Rangers with salvage titles available only to qualify for the contingency. That is not what the program was about. I think if we all think back to what events at what costs were in the west prior to FLW stepping up and coming out here, we are light years ahead. If I am going fishing anyway and have a chance to trade $825 for $25,000 I would take anyone up on it.......Ranger is also paying 3 places of contingency this year on the Pro side, we did not do that last year, but I don't hear any complaints on that????

Keith Tripp
Ranger Boats
Regional Sales Manager

mac (Doyle McEwen) · Post by **mac (Doyle McEwen)** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 2:36 pm

Keith, I don't have a boat in this water, as a matter of fact I don't have a boat..I can see your response and I can understand Steve's reaction..I can fully agree with the idea and notion of not allowing someone to go out a purchase a salvage boat just to qualify..To me this could be handled by requiring the person to be the original owner of the Ranger, no matter how old it is in order to be able to qualify for the contingency awards..Also something else I would personally require if it were me, would be for the boat to be the one they were fishing out of..I personally don't think Steve is upset about anything other than his older boat does not qualify, I do believe he is the original owner..I fully understand the sponsors and their desire to increase boat sales and I cannot disagree in the concept, just the application..

mac

tony thomasy · Post by **tony thomasy** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 3:00 pm

There is something I believe has not been pointed out yet? Who can afford to buy a new ranger boat every couple of years? Anglers with ranger sponsors-- what are their deals? Sell every year? Do they pay ofr their boats or do they keep them for a year, sell, give sponsor the money and get a new one? If this is the case they have no worries. Now if I'm an angler looking to fish with the big boys now or later am I going to spend up to 40k on a 2 year old boat that won't qualify for extra dollars? Does not make good business sense to me. I understand the business side of the new setup for the tournaments but compared to the last couple of years---- who are they catering to now? Think about it. Tony Thomasy

Keith Tripp · Post by **Keith Tripp** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 3:03 pm

Mac,

We do require on the pro side to be original owner and fish out of a Ranger Boat at the event. That would not work for the co-angler because they do not fish out of their boat, this is where the problem came in. Also if we require them to be original owner it doesn't give the guys that want to upgrade their boat a place to sell them. I believe we have looked hard at all possibilities to make this work to have a good viable sponsorship within the budget we set forth. I personally apologize to the fisherman that this does not work for, but also invite everyone to come out and give it a shot. We certainly didn't want to upset any fisherman, like Steve, that has gone out with his hard earned dollar and helped Ranger Boats be a successful boat company. But the only way to continue to support efforts, whether it is FLW or any other tournament organization, is to be profitable. I still personally believe this is a great opportunity and hope I too can fish a few of the Stren events. If not, I will try to attend each of the pairing meetings and look forward to open discussion on the fun Chris Jones and his staff will provide.

Keith

Keith Tripp · Post by **Keith Tripp** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 3:14 pm

Tony, if we were catering to the "guys" we discounted boats to that would not be good business on our part. Why would we discount the boat and then pay contingency???? This program is designed to help our dealers retail boats and be successful. The mis-conception is we discount boats to everyone that fishes the FLW events and that is not true. We have several guys that truly make a living fishing, the rest of us, just like I am sure you are hard working guys looking for an opportunity to fish a good viable tournament circuit.

Thank you all for giving some good viable information and your feelings on these topics. All will be good input as we go forward in our promotional planning. I hope to see you all at a FLW event and please stop by and introduce yourself.

Keith Tripp
Ranger Boats
Regional Sales Manager

sTony · Post by **sTony** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 4:47 pm

I can't thank you enough for taking the time to answer these questions directly Keith. Hope the tours do real well and I look forward to when we meet next.

sTony

Gary Dobyns · Post by **Gary Dobyns** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 10:19 pm

his money.

I have kept my head down on this one for a couple of reasons. First, I'm obviously a Ranger sponsored fisherman and second, I agree with some of your views. I personally wish that the 2004 and 2000 clauses did not exist. I do understand (after discussions with the right people) why this change was made. Sponsoring an organization is very costly and it is a business decision to help sell more product. One reason for the change was to stop some outrageous abuse of the contingency programs. For example, I fished with a competing boat company's sponsored pro who signed up as an amateur in the series. He had gotten a salvaged title on an old Ranger and was trying to say he owned a Ranger for the contingency prize boat. I fished with another that bragged about giving his friend a dollar for the purchase of his Ranger and changed the title since his friend was not fishing FLW. The problem is whenever you make a rule or a policy in the work place, a sporting event, or anything else, you end up catching mostly people you had no intention of getting. To get that one troublemaker, you'll catch dozens that you didn't want to hurt. For everyone's knowledge, I was told this was a problem MOSTLY back east. Do I "totally" agree with the fix? No, I do not, but after I've made some calls to express my unhappy veiws, I understand a lot better. These rules also make it a little harder on us "lucky guys" trying to sell our boats every year. You have to remember that FLW is the best thing that the west has ever had. Also, they really do listen to their anglers. Send them a note and explain your feelings. I have many times. I still thank them for the opportunity that they have given us. Steve, you have made some great points and so has sTony. Dang, I hate to say anything good about Tony.

Colebass · Post by **Colebass** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 12:01 am

It's rare I see you side with the "sides that be", but I do understand your point as well as FLW, Ranger and even Keith's! Ranger has long been a supporter to tournament angler's, so as they say in business "it is what it is". Like I say always say to my kids "shut-up and like it, or get out"! LMAO! That's what my wife says to me. I think she has been talking to KB's old lady!

mark poulson · Post by **mark poulson** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 5:11 am

I understand what Keith is saying about supporting the retailers selling his product, but I think FLW should rethink their position.
It would be easy enough to make sure there are only original owners rewarded. Pink slips and records.
But, in the larger picture, I think FLW is coming off as arrogant and "bullying", which is what BASS did when they tried to hijack the Fed. and raised entry fees.
While requiring newer Rangers sounds like a good marketing idea, I think, in reality, the amount of resentment from older Ranger owners, the number of lost Stren participants, and the bad word of mouth on this and other forums makes this a bad idea.
How many posts here have been about which boat is best, and how many "older" Ranger owners have stepped up and touted Ranger as the only way to go?
I'm sure I'm not the only one here who visits other forums from time to time. The resentment of BASS for their heavy handed tactics was a nationwide topic on all the forums I visit, and I think this FLW policy will produce the same effect.
Rick G. said Ranger sales went up to 5500. How many of those buyers are fishing Pro? I'll bet the vast majority aren't, at least on the national level.
All I'm saying is that the initial jump in sales, at least out here in the West, was due to excitement about Stren coming west with a real opportunity to make the big dance, and the perception that Ranger was a better boat with a great parent organization, the FLW, which was content to let their product sell itself by it's superior performance.
FLW came across as an organization that realized that supporting anglers would help their cause, which is fishing sales. After all, a rising tide lifts all boats.
I think they're shooting themselves in the foot with this change.
You don't build something like a successful tournament trail by creating what is widely perceived as an "unfair" set of rules that "excludes" so many potential participants from the pot of gold.
We all chase the rainbow.

John Barron · Post by **John Barron** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 5:28 am

Gary Dobyns · Post by **Gary Dobyns** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:33 am

Gary Dobyns · Post by **Gary Dobyns** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:05 am

Your just lucky you caught her young and you was able to brain wash her.

How young was she you cradle robber?????

NaCl · Post by **NaCl** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:39 am

the resale value of my Bass Cat go up! Way to go FLW! All of a sudden, guys who were thinking of buying a used Ranger are now looking at the alternatives. Got three calls in the past week from guys who were looking for a fairly new Ranger but now they're looking at my 2005 Puma...Thank You Ranger/FLW!

.....NaCl

Colebass · Post by **Colebass** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 7:10 pm

And I don't like to call it brain washing..........

Jyst cleansing!

Gene Buchholz · Post by **Gene Buchholz** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 6:46 am

The difference between what Don Rucks did with BASS is completley different then what you are comparing to FLW. Ranger boats does not OWN FLW! They are a sponsor just like Wal Mart and the other sponsors of FLW.
All Organizations will have to make some compensation for Sponsors wether it be in fishing, Nascar or any other sport.
On the East coast Yamaha has a similar program for their salt water tournaments.
FLW is bring an opportunity to the anglers of West coast we have not had. Lets take advantage of it.

Hey Gary if Keith fishes will you leave some of his money so I can get some?

Hardshell · Post by **Hardshell** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 9:09 am

if I were the owner of a Ranger Boat newer than 2004 I'd be encouraging the hell out of everyone I could to Cowboy Up and fish the Stren Series to build as big a pie as I could. Only problem is, "we is rednecks, but smart ones!"

Seeya
Hardshell-Jailer
aka Steve Greene

tony thomasy · Post by **tony thomasy** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 10:08 am

I am still trying to figure this out. As ranger boat owner contingency time expires, will they find willing buyers for their boats knowing they (the buyers) have no chance at the extra(significant) payout? The more I read about this the more it pains me. I have been a BASS fed member for over a decade. E.S.P.N. bought B.A.S.S. and I thought it was gonna be great! WRONG! We recently switched to F.L.W. and so far things are good as far as the fed goes. But, BASS did not prejudice, so heavily, about what boat could be fished out of in order to attain the most money. I am curious to know.... if you have the current tournament stipulation and then schedule another one of same stature for guys other than 2004 or newer rangers which has the larger field? Think about that one. Tony T.

backdeckpro · Post by **backdeckpro** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:12 am

I am a definite supporter of FLW and they have paid me a lot of money as a co-angler. I feel they still have the best run tournaments and payback out there even without the contingency prize. With that said, I now have to think very hard about what to fish in 2007 as an older Ranger owner. The Strens are definitely not as attractive as they were before this new rule on the contingency prize. Obviously, I am not the only one who feels this way.

Speaking about the pot of gold (contingency prize) at the end of the rainbow. It hasn't been found very often, at least on the co-angler side. The FLW Strens (formally Everstarts) have been out west since 2003. With four tournaments a year that total is currently at 16. As far as I can tell only 4 co-angler champions out west have been Ranger boat owners and won the contingency prize in these 16 tournaments. I did not check the statistics back east but I'm willing to bet it is less than 50%. I wonder what the percentage of contingency prize winners is on the pro side?

I think the abuse of the contingency rule, as Gary Dobyns mentioned, could not have been that great. If it was we would have seen a lot more winners of the Ranger contingency prize.

So were they (Ranger or FLW) actually losing money on how the contingency prize was previously set up? Will they lose more money (through lack of participation and "hurt" feelings) in the future due to this current rule change?

I understand the argument made to make this rule change. It is a business decision, but just like I tell my children. With good decisions usually come good consequences and with bad decisions come bad consequences. I am interested to see what the consequences of the rule change will be.

Pat Wilson

DeltaBound · Post by **DeltaBound** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:31 am

NaCl wrote:the resale value of my Bass Cat go up! Way to go FLW! All of a sudden, guys who were thinking of buying a used Ranger are now looking at the alternatives. Got three calls in the past week from guys who were looking for a fairly new Ranger but now they're looking at my 2005 Puma...Thank You Ranger/FLW!

.....NaCl

Well said.

JT-Madera · Post by **JT-Madera** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:33 am

I've stayed out of this about as long as I can...So get the popcorn ready...When I first read about the contingency change I didn't really care because I own a 2004 Ranger 520VX which means I qualify for one more year..I was more concerned about them raising the entry fee again.." I sure hope Chris Jones received a good pay raise this year, he deserves it "

First off all you guys with "other" boat brands should be calling the manufacturer and complain about why they don't step up and start a western tournament series..Irwin Jacobs saw a opportunity and stepped up and did it...He is in business to make a profit not give a bunch of boats away....

Second, this really does help the anglers, because it is going to create a booming market for used Rangers...If you guys think about it for a second..there are going to be a lot of pre 2004 Rangers pop up on the market real soon, because guys are going to upgrade so they will qualify...

Third, I really was more interested in the fact that FLW was going to payback 60 places than the give a boat..this means that at least 25% of the field would get a check.." that was important to me " Lets face it guys, only one of us might win the boat, however, the next 59 will get a check!!!!!

Fourth, the boat is a" bonus" for those anglers who are supporting Ranger boats and buying new boats...I think they should have gone back to a five year old boat, but that's just me...I guess Irwin Jacobs just wanted to speedup his profit margins, that is his decision, after all it is his business....I would also like to thank Keith Tripp for coming on the forum and explaining Rangers decisions..that took a lot of guts..on second thought, if you can't catch fish what else do you do all day

Now, where are all those new rods Gary Dobyns said he was making in his garage...guess he ran out of those dried tulles he had stuck on his jackplate...

tony thomasy · Post by **tony thomasy** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 2:50 pm

Hey JT-I can't speak for anyone else but if I fish a tournament of this magnitude I'm not looking to get a check I'm looking to WIN! And I want maximum payout for my hard earned dollar that's all. I own a 2006 champion so I am not looking nor could I afford to change to another boat. Tony T.

Dewayne · Post by **Dewayne** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:17 pm

While I do feel the changes will hurt the 2007 Stren turnout, I think there is more to the picture that is not being mentioned. To compare a 89% payback on the Strens to a WON or AC payback ignores a big piece of the pie.

The 2007 Stren Championship has a $1,000,000 purse and includes bonuses for Yamaha or Evinrude owners. A win there for a non-Ranger owner would net $90,000 and if they were a Evinrude or Yamaha owner they could tack on another $25,000. OH yea, then they move on to the Forrest Wood Cup with a chance for a lot more money.

In 2007 the top finishing pro and co-angler from the Western Strens at the Stren Championship will qualify to fish the Forrest Wood Cup where everyone gets a check. For a qualified Ranger owner winning the tournament they will earn a cool million. Yea! that $1,000,000!!!! Of course a non Ranger owner will only win a paltry $500,000. Finish last and you still win $1,000 to help cover expenses.

While the 2007 per tournament payback is not what we enjoyed in 2006, the overall package is still the best going.

While the National Guard Series does pay more per tournament and give you a better shot at the Forrest Wood Cup the NGS chamionship only pays $25,000 to the Pro with the highest weight. It's simple math, with little money held back for the championship the NGS pays a higher percentage up front at the tournaments.

With that said, the compromize I would like to see is for the qualification to loose the date and expand to any original owner who still is runs the Ranger they originally purchased. I also think a bonus should be a bonus and not out shine the overall purse. While we will never see it, I also do not see a reason that Basscat, Triton, Nitro, and etc. could not match or offer their own bonus program.

Anyways, make sure you are looking at the big picture.

JT-Madera · Post by **JT-Madera** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 6:16 am

Tony T;

It must be a Champion owner thingy,,,they can't read very well or read to much between lines that don't exist

But no where in my post did I say I fished tournaments not to win

You were replacing my logic with your own

I said that IF I didn't win at least the payback down to 60 was better than ANY other circuit.. Please reread this post several times before responding, please reread this post several times before responding, please reread this post several times before responding

Maybe you should enter the Western Champion Series, because they have a awesome payback for first, I think you win five boats for first and they payback nothing for the rest of the anglers....Oops they don't have a Western Champion Series.....I guess you're screwed.....you will just have to settle for a pultry $25,000.00, if you win....Shame, shame.....

Lighten up Dude

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