Deep Water Certified

[350V RGR]

Heres my .02, This deep water fish maintenance issue keeps coming up. AS it should until WE get a hold of it.
Lets have ALL TD's and Bass Clubs make it mandatory that at least one Angler on a boat is "Deep Water Certified"
They can have classes on the subject (Exaple, use the Billy Big Mouth rubber mold as a Demo) and (That GOOD Mouth picture thats on this fourm) then they receive a wallet size card that says. Joe Smoe Deep water Certified
Some Anglers dont like Needles and will try to hide from this issue. (Thats OK they can just paired with someone who is Certified)
Some Anglers EEI (Ego, Embarrassement, and Ignorance) will keep them from speaking up and ask for trainning.
Some Anglers dont even know this is a problem. They show up the morning of the Event and just fish.
Not every Angler uses this site, but they all come to your Tournament. "Sorry dude, You are going to have to wait until we blast everyone else off and then I can give you a class" Anyway, go ahead and just start thinking of stuff to counter what I am tring to add to help this issue. Will Mathers

[Steve]

This whole idea of people sticking needles into fish is something Ive never liked. Dealing with a swim bladder and releasing a fish is essential when needed, but the idea of people poking fish with a needle isnt. If you are just a little off there is no telling what damage you are doing.

A week ago we had some big fish deep and for the first time it was essential that we fizz the fish prior to release. My partner doesnt like needles either so we tried something for the first time that each of us knew about but had yet to try (calfishing.com).

We had a very smooth, sorta torpedo shaped 2 oz weight tied to a marker bouy. I took that weight and carefully lowered it into the throat of the fish. The sinker very easily went into the fishs stomach. Then, I put the fish in the water. The 2 oz weight was heavy enough to get the fish to the bottom, I just kept playing out line until it hit bottom. Once the fish was on the bottom (with compressed air bladder) I just lightly pulled on the bouy cord and it popped out of the fishs stomach/mouth. That was it, the fish was returned to where it came from with no needles stuck into it.

I was extremely impressed with how easy this was. Its something that anybody can do. IMHO, this is much better than sticking a fish with a needle.

[Kelly Ripa]

I used the lead method and THOUGHT it had work great but to my surprise that fish came back up ten minutes later. I fizzed it and she was down for good. Needles are the way to go. If you learn how to use them you aren't leaving anything to chance when it comes to hitting something important.

[MikeD]

... this is much better than sticking a fish with a needle.

the fish must be relieved of the swimbladder pressue due to coming up from the deep if you are not going to release it immedietly or fatal internal injuries *will* occur - exactly like a scuba diver coming up from the deep without decompressing at stages on the way up, the body cannot survive the barometric pressure changes

if you are a tournament angler leaving a distressed fish in the livewell all day with the hopes of sticking a weight in its mouth when you finally release it hours later then you've killed that fish. it will not survive.

if you are just out fun fishing and not sticking deep caught fish in the livewell but releasing them immed. then in most cases you don't need to worry about it, the fish can readjust if released right away

[350V RGR]

STEVE WROTE: Dealing with a swim bladder and releasing a fish is essential when needed, but the idea of people poking fish with a needle isnt. If you are just a little off there is no telling what damage you are doing.

BINGO, Thats why it would be good to have Classes on the matter.
So WE Know HOW to Bleed an Air Bladder down.

P.S. try dipping your 2oz weight in "Dip-It" rubber seal. that way when your Bass is on the bottom getting it bearings back. the stomach acid wont be eaten on that lead giving your Bass cancer.
Will Mathers[/quote]

[Steve]

Mike, you brought up an excellent point that I did not think about. Although primarilly a recreational angler, I do dabble in tournaments. Which brings me to Mr. Ranger. Youve got a great point also. So how do you propose we have these "classes"? I would attend. You could even get BBAC or the Federation (under the guise of conservation funding) to foot the bill of handing out fizzing needles to all who attend.

[SHAFT]

1 - At what depth does this come into play , if I caught a fish at 20' or 30' or deeper ?

2 - Can you look at the fish and know this is going on or does it take some time at the surface or in the live well ?

3 - This is their swim bladder inflating , what does it look like ?

[MikeD]

Shaft

check the info in this link too: http://westernbass.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11992


Yamamoto's Inside Line magazine has an excellent article on fizzing fish at http://www.insideline.net/1999/sak-0102-99.html by Brian Sak, he discusses the issues surrounding "deep" - good article and good reading

a fish pulled up with a swimbladder issue will look fat in the belly like it's been on a feeding binge. the real indicator of a problem is the fishes inability to remain bouyant, and it will float on its side in the livewell or on the surface.

[350V RGR]

Well thats easy Steve. first let me point out that I own a Ranger Boat because of the direct link between Texas Rangers, and Army Rangers. I own a Ranger because there is no such thing as a Airborne Nitro.
Secondly my fellow angler, As I mentioned above this can be done at the CLUB, LOCAL Tournament level. I would go out on a limb and say most PRO's and Semi-Pro at the FLW, BASS level are up on the Air Bladder issue. If they are not, There is some GOOD info on this site. AS I am a Amateur Angler it is MY responsibility to Know and Learn ALL that is needed to keep my fish Alive and well.
Flip the Bill?? what bill?? Are you saying that SOMEONE ELSE should give you a Needle for free?? Let me say this if you cant afford to BUY a Bladder Bleeder. Dont fish past 10ft. If you would like to learn. Join a Bass Club, ASK Someone, Go to a Tackle Shop.
Its not that hard man. The Issue is still. There are fish at the end of a Tournament that die unnecessarily.
Will Mathers

[BigBossMan]

Clarification: Do you need to fizz every deep water fish you catch if you're catching and releasing (recreational fishing)? Or only if you're going to keep them in the livewell for a tournament? What signs on the fish tell you it needs to be fizzed? Or do you watch for it to go belly up when you put it back into the water?

[MikeD]

Do you need to fizz every deep water fish you catch if you're catching and releasing (recreational fishing)?

no, probably only if you get them from really deep (40+') and when released they can't get back down and swim on their sides on the surface.

Or only if you're going to keep them in the livewell for a tournament?

yes

do you watch for it to go belly up when you put it back into the water?

yep

[Jim Conlow Sr.]

Require that needles are shown to officials who check the live wells.
That would make sure at least that everyone has the proper tool.
A printed paper could be passed out at the registration instructing how to use the needle. Thats how I learned how to fizz the fish now I am going to use the throat method on my next floater at oroville or wherever. it Looks like a more fool proof method even though I have never had a problem going in from the side. I always worry about it.
I think the down the throat method will be much less worrysome at least for me

Jim

[Steve]

Whoa, slow down there Mr. Ranger, I think somethings wrong here. I dont understand where your attitude came from, maybe you mis-understood what I said or maybe I miss understood your original post. Either way relax. Ive dealt with fizz issues for over 30 years, I know how to do it, and yes I can afford a needle (but Ill have to sacrifice that slice of salami Ive had my eye on for so long ). And yes, Im responsible for myself and the resources that mean everything to me, more so than you will ever know. And yes, Ive been involved at many different levels.

I was only making some off the cuff suggestions. I will do my best not to do that anymore in any thread that you are part of.

[MikeD]

Require that needles are shown to officials who check the live wells.

I floated that same idea on the other thread, I think its a great idea that is well past due for implementation.

But I'd also say that there should be a weight penalty - the same as bringing in a dead fish, that floater sitting in your live well is as good as dead so it just have the penalty enforced as well. Its one thing to have the needle on board, but you need tournament anglers to have the motivation to use it. enforcing a dead fish weight penalty for floaters would get you there.

[marklar]

where can i get a needle for fizzing fish. do any tackle shops carry them?

[Brian Ruthman]

I bought my needle at Glory Hole Sports at New Melones lake .
The needle is about 4-5" long and it has a center you leave in the needle while sticking the fish when you get it in you pull the center out and the air comes out , it works great !
I tried the method of sticking them in the throat between the crushers for the first time this weekend , i caught 10 fish about 25-30 ft deep and they all floated on their side in the live well so i poped them throught the mouth left them in the well all day long and they were all fine.

[350V RGR]

Steve, Sir

You are right. I did over react to your post. I Apologize for my lack of self control and not understanding your input.
I have no excuse execpt maybe my own ignorance to this forum.
I also Apologize to WesternBass and users of this site.
Will Mathers

[Lance]

Guys,

SHAFT asked the question, “At what depth does this come into playâ€

[Jim Conlow Sr.]

At the weigh in in tournaments the officials weighing the fish do not see them in the water to determine if they are floaters or not. At tournaments where there is a release boat the guys on the release boats fizz the floaters.

[Scott Shambre]

the organization to police!!!!!

I know I'm gonna get beat down for this, but it is the resposibility of the anglers in the boat to care for their fish. This issue is strictly a tournament angler issue as we drag our fish around in the livewell all day and need to know on-the-water techniques for caring for these fish. I have personally given two seminars on how to perform the mouth technique in the past month, twice for the the Galaxy weekend of events and once at the the FBL season opener for anyone that wanted to stick around a watch me hit a couple of fish. There have been at least 5 differnet threads with a wealth of information contained on them for guys to access. What is needed is for the anglers to take it upon themselves and go out and PRACTICE needling fish BEFORE they show up to fish a tournament. Coming to the scales is WAY TOO LATE TO BE LETTING US KNOW YOU HAVE FISH THAT NEED HELP!!!!!!!


For those that didn't get it the first time, here is a shortened version of the post & seminar I gave at the Galaxy tournament.

You will need an 18 guage needle which you can find at most feed stores, they use them on horses and other large farm animals. I then take the needle and shove it into the barrel portion of a white Bic pen and either super glue, silicone or hot glue it in place. Do not cut the barrel of the pen down, you will need the entire length of it for this technique.


YOU NOW HAVE THE TOOL FOR THE TECHINIQUE.

THE TECHNIQUE.....

As I demonstrated last year at the FBL season opener on a live bass, I go thru the mouth and have about a 99% success rate of hitting the bladder and deflating the fish without harm. I choose the mouth over the side of the fish because we hook these fish everyday in the mouth and there is very little if any after effects from this, however going thru the side can introduce infection, harm the slime layer or you could hit a vital organ displaced by the bloated bladder and kill the fish.

Holding the fish by either lipping or grasping over the top of the gill plates, look into the fishes mouth and you will see the gullet opening in the back of the throat. Above this opening and at about 11 and 1 o'clock are the "crushers" that aid in crushing and softening the food these fish eat. Above the gullet opening and directly between the crushers, insert the needle until you here the pop similar to opening a can of Sprite. Holding the fish securely and holding the needle in place, put the fish into you livewell and watch the air come out thru the needle. When it stops, your fish has been fizzed, place into a livewell treated with Please Release Me or Rejuvenaid and continue fishing.

<img src="/shared/photos/photos/resized/3270_resized.jpg">



This technique works about 99% of the time without harm to the fish becuase as the bladder inflates and moves forward towards the head of the fish, it pushes the vital organs near the heart down below the level of the gullet opening.

I will be doing this seminar again at the next FBL event on November 19th right after awards for anyone that wants to learn this valuable and necessary technique for caring for our deep catch fish.

Sometime in December sTony and I will be filming a WesternBass.com show on Folsom where I will show you how to do this on camera, so look for that resource then, until then good luck and get out and practice poppin' those fish.

Scott Shambre
FOLSOM BASS LEAGUE
www.folsombassleague.com

[basstamer]

Am I missing something here??? The diagrams outlined above are crystal clear as to how to PROPERLY deflate a swimbladder. I have done it a hundred times and always watched the fish swim away strong headed for the bottom. It just seems like its being made out to be a big complex thing when its something that is very easily done.....count back on the scales and go in slowly at an angle and you'll know when you hit it. If you dont go at an angle then yeah you probably could hurt or even kill the fish but at an angle its a "breeze" no pun intended! I saw a vet parked next to the road preg checking some heifers so I turned around and asked if I could buy a couple large gauge needles and he just gave me three of em-I did however explain to him what I wanted them for so he didnt call my license number into the cops! I do like the idea of it being mandatory-I just went to a weigh in the other day and even this early in the year SEVERAL fish ended up as floaters.Damn shame....good luck and dont forget to get them needles and make sure before you stick a fish that the needle is clear! ALWAYS after fizzing a fish take a piece of 8-10 lb mono and run it threw the inside of the needle so as to knock a hole threw all the juice and meat thats in there-if you wait till it dries your gonna have a problem
Scott

[BILLY]

You can't go by the depth that you catch them at. You need to watch the fish. How far up can you pull a fish to hit your spook? Just because he hit a top water bait does not mean he don't need to be fizzed.

[MikeD]

I know I'm gonna get beat down for this, but it is the resposibility of the anglers in the boat to care for their fish. This issue is strictly a tournament angler issue as we drag our fish around in the livewell all day and need to know on-the-water techniques for caring for these fish.

Scott, no argument/beat down from me at all - but... I'm a firm believer in the mantra "your must increase the pain in order to change the behavior" - anglers do not fizz consistently now, and in order to get their attention you must increase the pain. by adding a weight penalty at weigh in you can increase the pain

tournament directors can easily maintain a higher water level in the weigh in sink and pause for 5 seconds or so after the fish are dumped in out of the bag to see if there are any floaters. it should be up to the tournament director/weigh master to make the call to impose or not impose the penalty.

we are all after the goal of protecting the fish as best we can, education such as we see here in this thread and others on westernbass and calfishing coupled with rules that punish those tournament anglers who do not look out for the fishes best interest will result in positive change over the long run to make our fisheries as healthy as possible - the goal should be to return 100% of the catch back alive and in the best shape possible.

no floaters, period

[350V RGR]

Mr Shambre,
I dont think anyone is going to beat up on you. You ARE one of the Main Ram Rods on this issue. You are one of the guys who has laid out all of this information for us.
I have ALL of your stuff copied and laminated. From the last time this came up. I made one of those "Bic Pen Bleeders". I think AlOT of Anglers have followed your lead.
It is just very frustrating when you hear about fish still dieing after ALL of this imformation being out there.
I cant beleive its the Anglers who know how to deal with deep fish. So its got to be Anglers who dont care or dont know.
This is a Anglers responsibility I agree But we keep having the same problem. Thanks for time in this matter it has helped me be able to take care of my fish better. Will Mathers

[raverfusion]

exactly like a scuba diver coming up from the deep without decompressing at stages on the way up, the body cannot survive the barometric pressure changes

your half way correct. being a dive master myself... the best way to explain this is with a critical piece of equipment we use called a BCD (Buoyancy compensator device) when filled with air the diver will float. when we want to go down we let air out to sink...and while we are at depth we add air to go up and release air to go down...
Now the problem is when we want to come up...
the air in the BCD will expand as we start our accent to the surface. we will start gaining speed if we dont vent some air as we go up..and if we go up too fast we can get DECOM sickness and or over expansion injuries...
So with our little friends here...they cant vent that air in their natural BCD (swim/air blatter) so coming up from the depths on a line... being fought to the surface too fast will cause same side effects as us humans..to a certain degree...we are all in agreement with that...
however...if brought up slow enough like the diver venting that air slows his accent...a bass will equalize just fine...not needing the poke or the weight.

as a diver, we only need to come up in decompression stops if we go over our "No decompression time limit" meaning staying down longer than our bodies will allow while still being safe to come up to the surface directly. (as promised by US navy time tables, computers etc)...so we need to stop every so many ft...for so many minutes before reaching the surface...because we have lungs and are breathing compressed air..and build up Nitrogen at depth, and stayed down too long.
so fortunatly for our fish friends they dont have that problem...
but learn the way that works for you. to help our buds out.
the mouth is the easiest look at the photo above..how hard is that?

Peace

[Lance]

raverfusion,

While I totally agree with you I needed to keep it simple. My wife is one class away from Dive master and I being advanced (PADI) both of us have over 100 logged dives. I didn't want to bring up BCD's, it might have simply confused the issue. But you forgot to mention experienced divers can up and down, (while maintaining a neutral buoyancy) with breaths of air.

L

[raverfusion]

lance,
that is great that you guys are reaching out for DM I stopped there...I have over 500 and change logged dives mostly cali water 90%...but yes I did not meantion lots of things..like what you said. many ways to illustrate with divers...seeing how it was meantion but not fully illustated in the posts i read. even if your neutral during your dive you can NOT make it to the surface safely with out venting air that expands in your BC. thats basic open water...and that was the point, I was illustrating. I dont think its confusing

[Lance]

raverfusion,

Its funny because I was thinking to myself, how can I write this to someone that hasent dived before, but knowing full well that if a diver read it they would notice I left things out, to funny.

500 not bad. I was going to take the wreck diver classes but i never found the time to continue, thats also the same issue with the wife, time. Meanwhile the wife and I have done some diving in Hawaii and of course of the coast of California. We recently visited Greece in hopes of getting in the water but the weather or Poseidon didnt want us in the water, maybe next time.


You know I was just thinking, in your opinion, is it at all possible that a fish can have an uncontrolled ascent if it is initiated but not continued by an angler.

Like to hear what you think.

L

[Jim Conlow Sr.]

I also want to commend you for the effort that you are making to educate the fishermen on how to do the fizzing in the safest possible manner.
What I would like you to also be in favor of is to make sure that the tournament fishermen are checked by the tournament officials to make sure that they have the proper tools for the job, just as they check us to make sure that we have insurance and that we have life jackets and kill switches as well as running lights in use on our boats. If they are so concerned with our safety why not let them have a little more concern for the safety of the fish. Seems like a good idea to me.
Im not sure that you can effectively check for floaters at the weigh station but I have nothing against doing it as long as it does not delay the process in a manner to endanger the fish even more.

[Scott Shambre]

they will use it!!!!!

From a TD standpoint, this is the reason it is unenforceable.

If the angler tells me when I check the livewell...

"yeah, here is my needle, but I refuse to use it!"


Where do I go from there? I cannot enforce them to care for the fish other than to weed a dead fish out of their limit (which I have gotten real good at!!!). That being said Jim, it is the responsibility of the angler to WANT to care for their fish and not be there just to cash a check.

Scott Shambre
FOLSOM BASS LEAGUE
www.folsombassleague.com
www.rangerboats.com