Dropshot line... Seaguar sucks!

[snapitoff2002]

Does anyone have extensive experience with many lines... and can tell me of a flourocarbon that will be the least susceptible to line twist? Line twist is inevitable, but Jesus... 6lb Seaguar had to be the worst line I have ever used. Not even sure I want to go with flourocarbon for dropshot now. Any thoughts or suggestions???!!!

[Jason Wood]

I use P-Line 8 & 10lb... I still have to re-tie the leader every few times out because of line twist... I saw some new DS hooks with a swivel setup on 'em over at the Extreme Outdoorsman... Supposed to cancel the line twist...I was waitin' for 'em to get some bigger ones before I bought any to try out...

[Ricky-S]

All I use is Seaguar and I have been using it for about 7 years now. I have NEVER had a problem with it breaking. It is on every reel that I own. They are the company that invented floro.

They are also made at the same place as Sunline.

[bryanmc]

I'm not too familiar with the regular seaguar, but the invizix is the best flouro I've found for any application, especially on a spinning reel

[philstrader]

I agree, seaguar works the best for me. The finesse Guru of Shasta Lake, Mark Hiser put me on to seaguar several years ago for drop shotting, especially deep dropshotting, and that's pretty much all that I use.

Phil strader

[sdisturber]

in my best mr. rogers voice , hi boys and girls can you say ball bearing swivel.........

[mark poulson]

Any monofilament line, including flourocarbon, is prone to line twist on a spining rod, especially in the lighter lines.
One solution is to stretch the line after each trip, or during the trip by trailing it behind the boat at 5mph with no lure or weight attached.
Myself, I got so fed up with it I started using 15lb braid, with a 10' flouro leader in 5lb. That really cut the twist problem to almost zero, and 10' us usually enough to retie a bunch. Ed Gerderman, an Arizona fisherman who dropshots a lot out there, turned me on to this tip, and it works.

[Phil]

Swivels, Knots, Tying to leaders, to us is all asking for trouble & lost fish and may be causes to loose tournaments. We use Trilene 10lb Big Game green and XL 6 to 8lb green for all our fishing. When we toss spinnerbaits and jigs, we recommend & use 15 to 17lb green. When we toss swimbaits, we toss 20lb to 25lb green. Have never broke a fish off, (except Steelhead in the river in the winter time on 12lb line) , so we upgraded to 17lb.. We tried many braids and florocarbons, neither one has the abrasion resistence that we need from a line. Touch a rock onec with any of those lines and its break off time. For casting reels we use Trilene XT in 8lb to 20lb sizes.

Just our .02 worth.

Thank You
JIGS

[Cooch]

No line will twist all by itself. As well as, every line type ya use will git twisted. The twisting of the line is caused by the hook type and how you attach the particular bait yer using. Some baits, will twist a lot more than other.

For instance, Yamamoto's 7X, 6.5" Kut tails, will twist horribly when retrieve back to the boat at a rapid speed. Doesn't matter if'n yer on a dropshot, Texas rig or weightless. Crank it back to the boat real fast, that rudder like tail causes the bait to roll and twists yer line. Any straight tailed worm, that has a kink or bend in it's body, will do the same thing when wound back real fast. One reason ta keep those baits in a flat position when storing them, so their body shape is not altered, but kept straight.

Going to a swivel is one option. Changing and usin' a different hook type can be another option. I found going to a big circle or Octopus hook, and nose hooking my Kut tails indeed works far better than standard long shank, light wire, dropshot hooks. The other option is to try another worm type in the same color yer catchin' em on now.

It's not the line my friend, Seaguar is one of the best fluoros on the market today, made by Koreah Chemicals, the industry leader in fluoro lines.

[snapitoff2002]

Yes, I agree that the line is very strong... I may have gotten a bad spool if that's possible. I have used P-line, and didn't have near the problem with the same baits. Another pro told me not to put the 6# Seaguar on a spinning rod setup, or I would be asking for it. Now I see what he was talking about.
Yes Mark, I have cut my rigs loose and trailed my line behind the boat. That works to some extent. These clear waters up north keeps us using the really light line, so maybe some of you haven't had the problems using 8-10#.
Cooch- The bait is definitely one reason. I don't use the long drop shot weights because of that. I like to use the teardrop style, and less spin happens on the way down and up.
Thanks all, for your thoughts too.

[Joe Bruce]

I regulary use 5 and 6 lb florocarbon dropshotten but will not trust the drag on any reel what-so ever. anything below 8 lb test only goes on a spinning rod drag buried (might as well weld the spool on)
swivels are only another knot to break.
use a big cheep splitshot for a weight.
make sure your worm is stright.
reel it up as fast as possable.
never go back for it, just re-tie
and most importantly

BACKREEL

landed a hot 11.78 and 12.52 with 6 lb test

[Sacto John]

One suggestion that I can make is to a spinning reel with an over-sized spool. I am a Shimano guy but I have been looking at the Daiwa spinning reels because of their over-sized spools. I have been using one of the new Mitchell 300 on my drop shot rod and have experienced very little line twist in comparison to the Shimano Symatre I was using. The other option is to use a small baitcasting set up for dropshotting.

[StockOption]

I use invisx and absolutely love it.

I also drop shot using baitcasting equipment.

I've about had it with spinning gear for bass fishing.

[Ricky-S]

6 and 4 pound seagaur is on all of my spinning reels and I have never had a problem with the line. It has earned me a lot of money.

[Phil]

JOHN, WHAT MODEL DIAWA, WE SELL THE REGAL HERE WITH 9 BALL BEARINGS WORKS GREAT......COMING SOON AT JIGS IS U.S. REEL THE WORLDS ONLY LIGHT WEIGHT REEL WITH A LARGE DIA SPOOL !!WITH 2.30 TO 2.40 DIA SPOOL. LOTS LESS LINE TWISTS

JIGS

[Johnny C]

GAMMA is stronger line...But they all twist period..

[Steve]

I think Seaguar is an awesome dropshot line. The stuff is amazing. Yes you get twist, but all lines will twist. I tried the swivel thing and I liked it. However, if you bust off it takes too much time to retie, and this is no good in tournament situations.

Every day prior to me ever making a cast, I take all my spinning rods and just run the line (no baits attached) behind the boat for as far as possible. Then I just drive at low speed for half a mile or so. This removes all twist. Sometimes during the day, if I have time, I will repeat this process to remove any twist that has occurred during the day.

I try like heck to do this as Im heading back to the ramp the night before a tourny so Im ready to go in the morning.

[Johnny C]

Steve, make your leaders ahead of time and your time problem is solved..

[Marc]

I dropshot all the time with 6 pound Sugoi Fluorocarbon, but have also used Seaguar Invisx in 8 pound test and many other lines. Like the others, I agree it is not the line.

I used to have line twist problems many years ago, but they are no longer a problem for me except in rare cases, and I do not use swivels.

There are many little factors that each can add line twist...and added together they can make the problem impossible to deal with. Start eliminating each factor and I contend you won't need swivels on your line.

You already have a great start by using teardrop weights, just make sure they have the full swivel exposed like QuickDrops (as opposed to half of the swivel embedded in the lead).

Many weights also twist your line on the cast (cylindrical), and while sinking (cylindrical), and while on the bottom (round weights), and while retrieving (cylindrical). The teardrop shape with a full swivel is the best for reducing twist in all cases.

Try to use a dropshot hook in the style of the Gamakatsu Dropshot/Split Shot hook, and use the smallest size possible that matches your line test and worm size. In most cases with 6 pound line I am using a Gamakatsu #4 hook. If you use an offset or kirbed hook, you are going to increase your line twist!

Use symetrically shaped worms that retrieve straight without spinning. Good examples are Roboworms, Yamamoto Dropshot Minnows, Clearwater Tapeworms, etc. Anything with a curl tail or offset tail will add twist.

Be a perfectionist in nose hooking your worm dead center! This is the most important of all factors. You can tell when you get it right cause the worm won't spin when you retrieve fast.

Do not reel in any faster than the situation requires. Fast retrieves allow off-centered rigs to spin on the retrieve.

Back reel when fighting fish. A slipping drag exponentially increases line twist.

Spool your line without twists by laying it on its side so the line comes off the spool the same direction it coils onto your reel.

Use a reel that minimizes line twist. Believe it or not, some reels are a whole lot better at reducing twists than others. I prefer a Shimano Stadic or Sustain in the 2500 size for 6-8 pound fluorocarbon, and the 4000 size for anything larger. Shimano's have a large roller that helps reduce line twist.

You should be able to fish for 15-20 days without a problem, and when it starts to become a problem the line can be straightened by trolling it without any hardware behind your boat, or change it.

[MIKE TREMONT]

I had the same problem with all my lines until I took most of the steps Marc mentioned. I was never one to spool up flipping the spool back and fourth, seems like I would only get 5 winds on it and it was twisting again. I was in a hurry and always paid for it with line twist.
I take my time now and flop that spool back and fourth. Next I take the rod in the back yard and pull off about 100'. Then I lock the spool and run the line between my fingers. I do that twice and I get most the twist out.
For me that took care of it and makes using a spinning reel a little more pleasant. I can usually get a couple weeks out of them before I untwist the line again. For me it's worth the extra time up front.
You could go to a bait caster. That should help. Good luck.

[Ron T.]

I will agree on the seaguar sucks heading as for using it on a spinning rod and for the light stuff breaking way to easy . I will use the 10 lb. and up for the bait casting gear but never again for light line or on a spinning real . For most cases P line green ROCKS ! As for my favorite floural carbon , I dont have one I am totally thrilled with yet . Still looking .

[Colebass]

That's not what Dobyns calls him!

And I haven't heard you call him that either......

[NaCl]

I dropshotted at 70' deep this weekend in a club tourny on Oroville. I used Sugoi's 5# test fluorocarbon line and Quickdrop's teardrop shaped weights. I NEVER had any problem with line twist and I caught 40+ fish including several over the slot. I'm not sure if it was the line, the excellent hydrodynamics of the Quickdrop weights or my outstand fishing skills...okay, okay...rule out my skills. Actually, these weights tend to prevent line twist during both the drop due to their teardrop shape. The fluorocarbon line complements these weights to create the best dropshot combination I have ever used.

As far as line strength, I caught several good fish along with a ton of dinks and never broke off a single fish. That 5# test is excellent. Yes, I did re-tie after every decent fish and after 3 or 4 dinks and I used a very light drag.

By the way, my partner used the same bait and weight but he used 8# test mono. I caught 3:1 more fish than he did with the same bait, rigged the same distance above the weight. I attribute the higher number of bites to my light line. I also gave him some of the Quickdrop weights and he never had any linetwist problems either.

.....NaCl

ps Came in 4th out of about 20 boat with 8.54#...just never got a kicker for the win.

[Cooch]

I do agree with Dean here on the 5# Sugoi, that stuff is something else.

But there's a part he said here that got me ROTFLMAO!

I caught several good fish, Came in 4th with 8.54#...

Now there's yer perfect Oroville Oxymoron! Good one Dean!

[snapitoff2002]

I dropshot all the time with 6 pound Sugoi Fluorocarbon, but have also used Seaguar Invisx in 8 pound test and many other lines. Like the others, I agree it is not the line.

I used to have line twist problems many years ago, but they are no longer a problem for me except in rare cases, and I do not use swivels.

There are many little factors that each can add line twist...and added together they can make the problem impossible to deal with. Start eliminating each factor and I contend you won't need swivels on your line.

You already have a great start by using teardrop weights, just make sure they have the full swivel exposed like QuickDrops (as opposed to half of the swivel embedded in the lead).

Many weights also twist your line on the cast (cylindrical), and while sinking (cylindrical), and while on the bottom (round weights), and while retrieving (cylindrical). The teardrop shape with a full swivel is the best for reducing twist in all cases.

Try to use a dropshot hook in the style of the Gamakatsu Dropshot/Split Shot hook, and use the smallest size possible that matches your line test and worm size. In most cases with 6 pound line I am using a Gamakatsu #4 hook. If you use an offset or kirbed hook, you are going to increase your line twist!

Use symetrically shaped worms that retrieve straight without spinning. Good examples are Roboworms, Yamamoto Dropshot Minnows, Clearwater Tapeworms, etc. Anything with a curl tail or offset tail will add twist.

Be a perfectionist in nose hooking your worm dead center! This is the most important of all factors. You can tell when you get it right cause the worm won't spin when you retrieve fast.

Do not reel in any faster than the situation requires. Fast retrieves allow off-centered rigs to spin on the retrieve.

Back reel when fighting fish. A slipping drag exponentially increases line twist.

Spool your line without twists by laying it on its side so the line comes off the spool the same direction it coils onto your reel.

Use a reel that minimizes line twist. Believe it or not, some reels are a whole lot better at reducing twists than others. I prefer a Shimano Stadic or Sustain in the 2500 size for 6-8 pound fluorocarbon, and the 4000 size for anything larger. Shimano's have a large roller that helps reduce line twist.

You should be able to fish for 15-20 days without a problem, and when it starts to become a problem the line can be straightened by trolling it without any hardware behind your boat, or change it.

Marc, This is exactly the type of in depth post that I would want to see. I have done most of those things, but not all. Information in this type of context is invaluable, and exactly the reason why we have a forum.... to share.

[MikeD]

Marc, This is exactly the type of in depth post that I would want to see. I have done most of those things, but not all. Information in this type of context is invaluable, and exactly the reason why we have a forum.... to share.

totally agree, for me the more detail and info the better. this type of info really helps me work towards becoming a better angler - but I still have to go out and catch the fish. thanks to Marc and NaCl for taking the time to write this up. I use seaguar too and have tried the 6# on my drop shot and have the same line twist issues, I even use a swivel but line twists up quick. I'll have to try the Sugoi next time out on the lakes

are these the quickdrop weights?: http://www.quickdrops.com/site/products/

nice smallmouth pictures there too

[Marc]

MikeD, yes, those are the QuickDrops that we were referring to. Many of the stores in California stock them. Thanks for reminding me about the pictures...I have lots more even better pictures of huge smallmouths and need to update my website.

Thanks to you and Snapitoff2002 for the compliments...I would be lying if I didn't say that knowing people appreciate detailed information is the reason that guys like Dean and I bother to take the time to write this stuff and share.

[MikeD]

what about using a baitcaster as a drop shot rod? a lightweight 7' with a light fast tip?

I'm a backseater and that dang'd spinning reel is always getting tangled up in the other rods. on my baitcasters I wrap the hanging line back around the rod a few times before I tuck it back into the passenger foot well to prevent the line from getting tangled up in the eyelets of the other rods.

would think that the big problem would be wild professional overruns on the reel trying to get the light line and light hook/weight combo out into the water. too tight on the spool tension and it won't cast, too loose and it birdnests

[Marc]

MikeD,

Even though I am a boater I also fish from the back of my own boat occasionally as part of our team strategy, so I have had to deal with the spinning rod storage in the back.

Here is what I do: Use the dropshot storage tip that is posted on the QuickDrops.com website, and was also described in Inside Line magazine last year. This puts your weight and hook secured on the largest line guide of your rod, so you don't have line coming back down by your reel. Then wrap your line around your rod two times like you are doing with your baitcaster. After wrapping your line, if there is a bend in your rod tip then pull enough line off of your reel (letting your drag slip) until your rod is straight. Then store the rod (preferrably on top of your baitcasters). No more tangles!

I use folding handles on my Shimano Stradic 2500 mgs, which also helps.

I like to use baitcasters whenever possible, and I have a history of using baitcasters with 6-pound test going back to my doodling days. There are some real advantages from a mechanical perspective (but also some mechanical disadvantages), but try as I might I cannot put as many fish in the livewell using baitcasters with 5 or 6 pound test line and light weights as I can with a spinning rod.

I also refuse to give up the control of fighting a big fish next to the boat that you gain once you learn to backreel in conjunction with proper drag settings and use. Baitcasters don't give you this ability.

[Rod Brown]

Hi Snapitoff,

I have used Berkley Vanish for years and have been very happy with it. All lines will twist from reel size, weights, hooks and plastic lure placement. It's always going to be that way. Some things I do to make dropshotting easier for me are:

+In tournaments I pre-rig a few set-ups with Sampo ball bearings.
+There is no need to set hard with the needle-sharp hooks. A pull and reel hookset is sufficient but don't give any slack.
+Backreeling is a must with light line and is easy to learn.
+At the end of the day while dropshotting alot I will cut rig off and troll for a few minutes with 100+ feet behind the boat to straighten my line.
+I use a medium to large reel spool to avoid twists and coiling.

I hope this helps and good luck to you!

Rod Brown

[Jason Wood]

I went out today and tried some of Marc's suggestions... I normally hook the worm as perfectly centered as I can but I do not normally take my time reeling, (pulling to flip), the line in... Today I tested the setup to see how fast I could pull it in and the worm stay straight... Fished all day and the only problems I encountered were the normal tangle-ups from fighting the fish in... No twist problem... Great info, Marc... Thank ya...

[Marc]

Jason, you are very welcome. I have been fortunate enough to learn a lot of tips from generous anglers, so I share whenever possible. Happy Thanksgiving!

[Marc]

...I guess I should also point out another tip that seems small but is really huge, not only from a line twist perspective but also for keeping fish hooked up while dropshotting and dropswimming.

When you nose hook your worm, don't penetrate the worm further than about one-eighth inch from the nose of the worm. The key is to make sure (when you nose hook the worm and hold it so it is vertical), that the tip (nose) of the worm is lower than the tip of the hookpoint.

This ensures that when a bass grabs your worm and you set the hook, that the point penetrates flesh or bone and NOT back into your plastic worm.

What I also learned by doing this is that line twist is greatly reduced compared to when you place the hook deeper into the worm. The deeper you place the hook (farther from the nose), the more line twist you get when you retrieve the worm.

ciao,
Marc

[Dan Sexton]

I learned this trick/tip from some Minnesota spinning reel guys.

When a person engages (closes the bail) the reel automatically by cranking the shaft handle this will cause the line to twist 6 times compared to 1 time if you manually engage the reel (close the bail).

I agree with Johnny C. Have the swivel leaders pre-packed. I use size #16 or #18 swivels. I learned the system from Ron Schultz, to use an old Seaguar plastic line spool and this is what you need:

1) Sharpie pen
2) Masking tape
3) whatever line you choose to drop shot with
4) swivel (I use #16 or #18, smaller is better,
I almost have my wife believing that)
5) Hook (I use #4 off-set shank Gammy's)
6) Weight ( I like mojo-stye drop-shots,3/16 oz. - 1/4 oz.)

Leaders:
1) swivel to hook = approx. 8"
2) hook to weight = approx. 18"

System:
1) 1st leader is numbered #1

2) Tape the swivel to the "marketing" side of the plastic spool with #1 written on the tape

3) Tape the hook "like a taco" (to keep from tangling) #1 and wrap line in spool well until you get to the weight.

4) Tape the weight to the "non-marketing" side with #1 written on the tape.

5) Repeat each step, next #2 and so-on. When you get a leader you grab the highest number drop-shot weight and unwind to the swivel.

I started with #15 a couple of weeks ago and am down to #9, No tangles and quick to tie when your on the water... I hope this helps! If you like this system, Thank Ron Schultz

ps. I have used Seagaur for over 4 years and have had great success, (mostly only with the line). Back Reel is a must, like 39-pound-Joe said!!

Happy Holidays