OK help me understand

[fishhook]

good point, but i think when i become part of the 10 lb club, she will go right on the wall next to the bucks hanging there

[Andy Giannini]

I think selective harvest is the answer. (Fishing or hunting.)

I have had quite a few animals dead in my sights and did not shoot. My goal hunting isn't to wipe them out. Unless its purely a depredation type hunt, like ground squirrels for instance.

I think whatever the sport is, the guy defines it for himself. Fishing a tournament, trying to catch a big fish, taking the kids fishing, or fishing to eat.

Perhaps the catch and release thing has gone to far. It isn't a religion, but we have extremists among us.

The hunting stuff on tv kinda sucks. I watch it, but get bored of fist pumping, guys acting out an adrenaline rush, emphasis on big racks etc. Most of it lacks any real content anyway, a lot of product pushing, and filler words that don't mean anything. Count how many times you can hear,

"I tell you what,.... thats what I am talking about...etc."

Kind of a non answer, but those are my thoughts about it.

A.G.

[Andy Giannini]

It is ok to target big fish, and big deer or whatever.

Its just tougher to "Shoot and release".



A.G.

[Jason Wood]

Andy hit it right on the money... My brother is a big time elk hunter... If I was able to, I would post some pics... He shot an elk that was 5 points off the state of Montana Boone & Crockett record 3 years ago... It's hanging on his wall in his house... He comes down to fish with me and it's all catch and release... You can't shoot anything and release it...

[Lance]

Here you go Bones, Lil T is the Mrs.

http://westernbass.com/forum/viewtopic. ... highlight=

[mark poulson]

The thrill of the hunt is in the hunt, not the kill. At least for me. Once you've learned to shoot, then that's just the mechanical part. But figuring out where the animals are, how to get close, and the actual stalk is the challenge, and the thrill.
That's why I stopped hunting, and love to catch and release fish.

[Andy Giannini]

I agree with Mark, except for one thing. The shot or shooting part, can easily be screwed up and I consider it to be part of the challange.

(Hint, I miss more than once in awhile.)

A.G.

[Paul W]

Thats a good point. What I've always wondered, is how those same guys who preach catch & release of Bass will go out and kill a big Striper (and lots of smaller ones too). The Striper population in the state is nowhere near the population of Bass, yet it remains a catch and keep fishery for the majority of anglers. If its okay to keep a limit of Stripers, then a limit of Bass shouldnt bother people, right? Oh well thats a whole other topic alltogether....

Paul W

[JT-Madera]

Wow Mark that is exactly how I feel..I hunted and fished for years, then I got into catch and release for my fishing and the deer, ducks, bear and wild boar were safe...just couldn't bring myself to kill them..loved the hunt..what other people do doesn't bother me in the least..go get'm guys..I'll eat'm just not kill'm...The other day my wife kept complaining about all the fishing I do and not bringing home anything, so I brought home a nice fat 2.5 lb spotted bass and killed and cleaned it right in front of her..afterward she said I never had to do that again..we would just buy our fish....

Just a personal choice, friends who fish with me can take home the little ones and leave the big'uns in the water..

JT

[Jim Conlow Sr.]

I think that the general public of fishermen would want to do everything in their power to eliminate tournaments if we were to keep the tournament caught fish.
I think a tournament fisherman would be foolish to keep fish during practice that he may possibly catch again on game day.
I think that depleting your mature breeding stock is counter productive to maintaining a good population of fish.

[JT-Madera]

Amended Post;

After more careful thought I must say that a tasty striper or crappy filet is my number one food..Funny how that is!!! Just thinking about it makes me want to call Cooch and see if'n he wants to go after some of those Delta stripers Pan size that is

Must be the smell of that turkey in the oven driving me crazy.....
19lbs of great eating...take that you PETA freaks

JT

[TTCal]

The other day my wife kept complaining about all the fishing I do and not bringing home anything, so I brought home a nice fat 2.5 lb spotted bass and killed and cleaned it right in front of her..afterward she said I never had to do that again..we would just buy our fish....

LOL JT!

Good points all... I tend to agree with the selective harvest perspective but have never been into hunting so I can't really speak to that subject. I do know, that if I were to go on a hunt, my weapon of choice would be my camera. But I doubt I could ever get close enough to get a good shot!

[Ken C.]

H-m-m Intersting topic! And I guess I have to look within because I do promote catch-and-release fishing of not only bass, but also trout, most stripers (I've been known to keep an 18 inch'er or two) and most other fish that I target.

Given that, I love hunting. Moreover, I just love being out there! I love going out in a pheasant field and watching my dogs just "come alive". They truly get into their element and their unbridled joy is readily apparent! To me there isn't much of a finer moment than to be out in a duck blind at dawn with a storm just raging and the sky full of birds! I think it's more of a natural beauty thing to me. In all of these situations - much as it is to me with fly-fishing - I get more joy and satisfaction out of just being there, than actually "harvesting" anything.

Being able to call in a duck or goose, or fooling a native rainbow with a hand-tied fly are very satisfying to me. I don't have to pull the trigger to have a positive experience. At the same time I have never gone out and done any hunting for any four-footed animals. Simply because I think they are far too magnificent in their environment for me to take them out of it. It is part of the natural beauty. If I take that buck, I change the beauty of that area.

That being said, I hold nothing against those who do hunt for deer, elk, etc. as long as they do it in an ethical and sporting manner. In fact personally I love deer and elk meat! Just not enough to go out and shoot one myself. For one thing there is alot of work and expense to be done after the kill.

One thing to remember is that there is a certain percentage of the wild population that will not survive the winter. As I recall a deer reaches it's reproductive prime at 7 years. So a 10-year-old buck is on his way downhill anyway. That's not to say there aren't 10 y.o. bucks that should be kept in the gene pool a little longer, but that's where selective harvest should come into play. There is a certain train of thought that by removing some of the older animals from the poulation you are in actuality increasing the chance of survival for those that remain since there is now less competition for the somewhat scarce winter food supply. It could even be argued that you are saving that animal from suffering starvation and a lingering death. It is this reason why hunting season is in the fall!

Personaly I would love to go out on a deer or elk hunt, but I would be armed with something similar to this so I could practice "shoot and release". It would be more satisfying to me to be able to take some pictures of some of these magnificent animals in their environment and hang that on my wall!



Happy Thanksgiving Everyone!

[mark poulson]

Paul,
It seems to me that where you're fishing for stripers has a lot to do with your attitude about them.
From what I've read here, the Delta is a great striper fishery, and there are guys who target them specifically a lot of the time. For them, catch and release makes perfect sense.
Down here, in So.Cal., stripers in Castaic are a ravenous horde, feeding on shad all over the lake, and seemingly outcompeting the largemouth. So bass fishermen down here tend to think of it as, "The only good striper, is a dead striper". It's especially maddening when you're targeting large mouth in a tournament, but stripers keep eating your lures before the largies.
Personally, I turn them loose, too. They're too much fun to catch to kill.

[Andy Giannini]

I don't think there is a difference between a fish, an elk, etc. The only difference is the catch and release thing has gone a bit too far. There are guys lurking about, that if you post that you mounted your latest ten pounder that will come unglued and the flame war will begin. For them, the not taking of any species has become some kind of weird religion. I would not say the topic is some kind of morality issue, BUT THEY WILL! We have been taught to C&R and thats great, but it can go a bit too far. The In-Fisherman first brought this to my attention regarding fisheries. I wholeheartly agree.

The Striped Bass association has been quietly promoting C&R in the Delta.

Nothing wrong with keeping a fish or two, or bagging some game once in awhile. (Even a big one.) We seem facinated with the finest examples or freaks of any species.

Ken's post about his dogs coming alive in the field reminds me of me. I feel most natural fishing or hunting, that is where we came from. Far from being a pastime or hobby, it is our right place in nature at the top of the food chain. It isn't behind a computer, driving down the road, or stuck in a cubicle.

For me, it isn't the numbers, rack, etc. its just being out there in the moment. And the critters usually win, they make a living out of it.

Off to eat meat,

Happy...whatever is PC...

A.G.

[Marty]

Catch and Release?
Wind of Change in Noble Ethics
by Debra Dean, Editor of Honey Hole Magazine

The art of catch and release could be on the verge of be coming the next big concern of fishery managers and biologists. It's actually already been under scrutiny for some time because keep-and-eat is what's supposedly missing from "workable" slot limits. Fisheries biologists claim that the only way slot limits really work for any lake is for small fish, those under the slot, to be retained in larger numbers than what is currently in style with bass fishing society (which is practically none).

But they were inclined to support and promote catch and release as part of their fisheries plans and perhaps had hoped to strike some kind of balance between live release and a visit to the table, for bass in particular. No one realized that catch and release would become THE THING TO DO, almost a religious experience, for bass anglers and that such a noble ethic could become a problem for fisheries management.

Ah, but we don't want to kill our little bass. We know that they grow up to become big bass. We believe we are doing the "right thing." But we could be cutting off our noses to spite our faces. The real question is are we practicing catch and release, or reverse selective harvest?

Studies indicate that long-term catch-and-release fishing can indeed impact a fishery in a negative manner. Smaller, more aggressive fish deplete the food resources of a take faster and more efficiently than larger fish. According to biologists these fish actually take more forage for their size than they're worth to the lake in recruitment. That equates as larger fish having less to eat and not growing as fast as they could under optimum conditions with plenty to eat.

In studies done by the Department of Fisheries and Aquatic Sciences at the University of Florida in 1999, scientists discovered detectable differences in proportional stock density in response to size limits in both largemouth bass and crappie. Basically this gave fisheries managers a heads-up on how well imposed limits were working and why some were not working as well as they should under the conditions provided (which included catch and release fishing).

It's even possible that catch and release of fish in such large numbers, may actually be stimulating an evolution of sorts in fish. We could be helping them learn to avoid being caught again. The studies on "smart" bass gave indications that fish which have been caught on a lure, can learn from the experience and not be as easily caught again. Bass behavior studies provide some facts about what bass can learn, remember and what kind, if any, problem-solving abilities they have.

And those abilities have proven fairly convenient for bass, not as convenient for bass fishermen. Noises and what bass see can be associated by them with danger. Though they don't necessarily "think" like humans, they can learn that a certain lure, or sound means danger. Yet they might still hit a lure of a different color or type as it has not yet been associated with a similar danger. Which is of course why lure manufacturers are in the catbird seat of this sport. Creating new baits and new colors is to their advantage in selling more baits, but it is also needed by anglers to continue to "trick" bass into biting them.

Bass have indeed evolved, and continue to evolve in the same manner that other creatures have, to maintain their place in the environment in which they live. They are very familiar with their environment and the things that pose a danger to their survival. They have become more adept at recognizing what looks "real" and what does not even though eyesight isn't their best sense.
Bass live by their instincts. Those instincts include knowing where they are, where they're going, what foods they prefer and where to find them, and the ability to avoid "known" dangers. Spawning instincts tell them when the time is right to seek out the same places they went the year before to take part in the annual ritual.
Fish do know where they are and where they belong as relates to territory. In studies done by fish tracker, John Hope, the fish he followed always found their way back home after being released at a tournament site following weigh-in or after being released by individuals, even if that took several days or weeks.

Small fish can more easily be caught again, shortly after being caught, as was found when under-the-slot fish were transported from Lake Fork to Sweetwater in west Texas. During the Honey Hole BCA Show-down held at Lake Fork some years ago to alleviate the numbers of small bass in the lake (to follow biologist's directive that small fish needed to be removed), fish were held in livewells during the event, transferred to holding tanks, then shipped to several different lakes and released. An angler bank fishing at Sweetwater caught several of them the very next morning after they were released following the transport. This indicates a couple of things. First fish can survive quite an ordeal, but secondly and more important, smaller fish (those under 14 inches) are by far more aggressive than larger ones. They obviously haven't "learned" very much about lures yet and any fear they might have is overidden by hunger.

As in all species, humans included, intelligence in the form of instincts is handed down from one generation to the next. Some bass are likely "smarter" than others. And size doesn't have a lot to do with whether they're smarter or dumber. A big bass didn't necessarily get that way from being smarter. That may have had as much to do with genetics as intelligence. However at least some portion of its size is related to its intelligence inasmuch as it had to avoid being caught by anglers that don't practice catch and release to grow that large.

Biologists believe that for slot and high-end limits to work properly, bass in the smaller classes (under the slot) must be harvested at a higher rate than currently popular. But can we now go back and relearn the art of fisheries management? Can we bring ourselves to understand that conservation also means selective harvest? Is there reason to believe that removing large, lure-educated bass may also be helpful?

You can do your part to help. Take home some smaller fish, those under the slot, a couple of times each year. And don't be ashamed of keeping a larger one to mount. Even if you have been a diehard catch-and-release angler, you're going to have to rethink what conservation is all about. Not every little fish released will grow up to be a big bass and not every large bass removed causes harm to the fishery. Noble ethics may not protect our fisheries after all, but sensible management will.

On the other side of the scientific debate, Key Puckett of Fishin' World in Dallas, has some interesting thoughts on catch and release fishing. Certainly no biologist, he's got what you might call "street sense." He's a fisherman and he believes there are some other reasons we're not catching as many fish as we used to.
Puckett has competed in tournaments for many years, still does in both fresh and saltwater. He says in 1973 all he could think about was fishing tournaments, which in his opinion is what built bass fishing.

"For years the only pleasure I had in fishing was in tournaments. However in the last 10 to 15 years I've seen a decline not only in the catch per unit effort, but also in participation in the sport and if you took at license sales they too have declined. Texas is selling licenses presently like it did in the 70's. That's about a 50 percent decline in participation. I keep asking myself why. I think the key is that we are urbanized. We are a more affluent society. People can "do" more things now than ever before. I believe we're not gaining new fishermen, or young ones (the average age is 48 or 49 years old of licensed fishermen), because there are too many choices and it isn't as much fun as some of those other things.
"The fact is that it's very difficult to go out and catch black bass. The people who fish tournaments know how to catch bass and are happy with four, five or six bites a day, but it isn't pleasurable for kids or those people who are just getting into the sport.

"I believe it now takes more ways to catch fish because of catch and release. The same fish are being caught and they're becoming more educated. The same fishermen don't buy the same baits because the fish won't hit them. TPW wanted a world record, so they helped promote catch and release. We've come close, but what are the chances of an angler catching one of those? We'd be better off with more one- to three-pound fish to keep fishermen interested.

"Catch and release has helped to develop big fish. There have been great catches of five fish weighing 40 pounds or more. Fork, Richland- Chambers and other lakes have produced awesome catches, but the new guy who goes and buys a bass boat and goes fishing seven or eight weekends and catches only four fish, sells the boat and changes hobbies to golf or whatever.

"In a lot of our lakes, catch and release has stymied the ability of a new angler to go home and say they did some good. We've become over-zealous in our conservation efforts, the complete opposite of 20 years ago when we took home ice chests of fish to show to everyone.

"There needs to be more excitement to fishing to bring new people to the sport. We may have to eat some fish again to harvest out the ones that are smart enough not to get caught. People must be able to catch a lot of fish, not necessarily a monster bass, just enough to keep them interested.

"Big fish that have been trained not to bite lures need to be removed from the lake. To substantiate how catch and release can work, look at Sam Rayburn. It is estimated that most of the bass over six pounds died from the largemouth bass virus. In the time since the kill small fish are growing up and Rayburn is alive with two- to four-pound bass. Limits are being caught again. Fishermen can catch eight to 20 keepers a day. There are a lot of aggressive, young fish biting again in the lake. But if all these fish are released again and again, it will most likely again become more difficult to catch fish even without another kill occurring.

"Look at the striper fisheries at the best lakes. These fish are replaced more often because the fish are removed, which means a less wary and knowledgeable fish replaces one that has been caught several times. If you had a lake full of large stripers which had been caught over and over again, then fishing would become difficult."

We do need more excitement in the sport to attract new anglers and even keep some involved, who have become disenchanted with poor fishing. Of the important elements of fishing, it must first be fun, there must be plenty of "catchable" fish in most of our lakes. There must be places where people can find folks who can help them really learn about fishing. Fishing was never intended to be "fast food" and as we lose the small tackle shops where there was an intimacy and sharing of knowledge, so go the license sales to new anglers. There shouldn't be issues about such things as live bait, or of keeping fish if you want to for dinner or mounting. Each person who pays for a fishing license should fish according to their own morals. It must also be affordable, accessible and obtainable in some form for people of all economic standards. It also shouldn't be so confusing with dozens of limit variations.

TPW doesn't have to spend millions of dollars designing the world's biggest "super bass" to make fishermen happy or get new ones to come to the sport. They do need to find ways to improve overall fishing so that a new angler can catch enough fish to be encouraged to participate in the sport.

Seasoned anglers have grown accustomed to three bites a day and accept it as part of bass fishing. There's plenty of grumbling about poor fishing, but less understanding about why and no workable ideas coming from TPW about how to change it.

Striking a balance between total catch and release and a more natural selective harvest won't be easy. Everyone can't change their ethics all at once, rush out and start keeping every fish they catch. But somewhere along the way compromise must be found.

As to inducting new fishermen into the sport to keep the economics flowing and growing, that's a harder task still. But I believe Key had it right. To get more fishermen, there must be more "catchable" fish. And they don't have to be 18-pounders. Perhaps TPW should direct less attention to "designer" bass and more to lots of dumb ones that can be caught. Then the guy who buys a bass boat will keep it and continue to fish.

[mac (Doyle McEwen)]

Excellent post Marty..Of course a whole lot of people are not going to buy it as it was intended..They just don't want to become known as "meat hunters"..I noticed Dean Sault admitted a few weeks ago that he sometimes practiced catch and keep, especially in our slot limit lakes..If more of us did the same, those lakes would likely become better fisheries..Several summers ago I fished one of the small local lakes in the San Jose area and probably caught 60 or so 10 to 11 inch bass, the lake didn't have a slot, so none were legal to catch, but the thing that struck me as odd was the weight of each of these fish..They all or almost all weighed over 3/4 of a pound, which to me indicated they were getting plenty to eat, but how much longer would that last, if some of them were not removed from that environment..

mac

[Fishin' Dave]

Bones,

On your orginal guestion of fiberglass vs skin mount I would say it depends on a few things. I think a guy with 20 skin mounts might have been better off with a few replicas, but bottom line is if you bought your licence and caught the fish in a legal sporting manner, it is you right to do what you wish. I fault no one for wanting a skin mount over a replica as I know the furstration of finding a big bass. I still have not broke the 10lb plus club, and with my many years of Bass fishing, if I boated a 14lber she'd be on my wall. Sorry if that offends anybody.

[mac (Doyle McEwen)]

Let it offend them Dave, as you said if you caught it legally, it is yours to do with as you choose..I haven't caught a double digit either, but if I did, I would probably just let it go..I really don't want a mount, but I sure would love to catch a big fish..

mac